The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Balam]

We've actually had this belief

waiting for the posting head to have time

...

Posting head having time to give a quick thought but not enough time to make a post ITT.

[Balam]

Ethe likes being affirmed, so I feel the level at which Yos joined with Ether while not really talking about anything else and letting it slide by is suspect.

That's a funny story. Yosarian was indeed acting kinda weird toward me early on, and that's

why

I decided he's probably town.

-Ether

I got a different impression, as it felt a tad clingy to me. Can you explain why you feel it's townish?

[Balam]

Balam, would you mind telling me who you're a hydra of, if you haven't already? Knowing that might make you easier to read.

Anonymous hydra. Since you asked, however, I'll see what the others say.

It is the opinion of this head that the heads should decide to reveal themselves of their own desire.

I, for one, am fine with revealing my identity.

I'm RayFrost, I posted the list of reads.

[Balam]

AGar here.

Not posting ITT afaik, simply providing reads in QT.

[Balam]

<- Equinox

Originally, we decided on me being the posting head because I was likely to keep all of the heads' identities secret while, at the same time, still being able to present the viewpoints of the hydra. Unfortunately, due to circumstances I can't exactly reveal anywhere, I've been blowing my Mafia hours elsewhere and did not catch up here until a few hours ago (right before RayFrost took over), and I'm still about a page from finishing reading.

AGar and RayFrost have been posting thoughts in the QuickTopic throughout. Being the silly goose that I am, I thought I should get a chance to finish reading, post thoughts, work 'em out with the rest, and then post like a proper play-by-committee hydra. It didn't work out.

[Final Destination]

Cool, Balam's probably town then.

GUMMYBEAR HAS POSTED ELSEWHERE. FIGURED I"D DO MY CIVIC DUTY AND POINT OUT HOW THEY"RE AVOIDING OF THIS GAME IS SKETCHY AS FUCK AND ERODING THEIR TOWN READ.

[Final Destination]

Just checking in after catching up in another game. This one's next.

For emphasis.

AGM was on earlier but I missed him. We'll have a real post next time we're together though.

[GummyBear]

As if by magic, a post is on its way. Singer is looking over it and we're discussing now.

- quadz

[GummyBear]

Our apologies for taking so long to make this post. Real life attacked us viciously the past couple of days. Also, apologies for the wallishness.

Congrats ether, that's a neat little game of semantics you're playing there.

*thumbsup*

Greymarble’s vote on FD in 127 concerns us quite a bit. I don’t like the lack of explanation at all. But then you explain without being prompted in 131, so nevermind. It’s null. (Though we don’t agree with your meta-case.)

For what it's worth, it's not like I just voted them over a theory disagreement.

It’s… not? I’m pretty sure that you did, in fact, vote us over a theory disagreement. Show me where your case consisted of anything other than “Singer said she had to converse with quadz before posting that means they’re COVERING SOMETHING UP OMG.”

You proceeding to call us both scum for complete bullshit reasons make us think you are scum and she is town.

*thumbsup* We approve of the Fate / AGM hydra, in general. Playstyle, thoughts, all of the above. It’s a good change, you guys.

YFC’s 166: Point 1 is solid. Point 2 is… understandable. Point 3 Is… complete bullshit. Pathetric is NOT obvtown; far from it. (edit from THE FUTURE: FD’s 168 is more or less this, but elaborated.)

We agree with 167, though. So far, getting a townread from YFC.

If she realizes she voted them over only a theory disagreement

Explain how that quote from Pathretic admits voting us over a theory disagreement? I got the exact opposite thing. Unless she was being sarcastic, and I’m not picking up on it, I suppose.

UB’s 181: I don’t see anything we stand to gain from such a list. Why not just ask for top scumpicks?

Dammit, YFC…

Ok, now, that's absurd.

Ether's reasoning for suspecting Gummy made perfect sense

1

, and was about as strong as you'd expect for page 5 of day 1.

2

The fact that she was willing to wagon hop to someone else scummy in order to get pressure going is a good sign, not a bad one.

3

Basically as soon as the game started, she ran right out onto the high wire without a net, just to get reactions and to get the game moving. And what's more, she's clearly having fun doing it; if Ether's enjoying herself in a game, you can bet money that she's town.

4

Are you reading Ether's posts this game? Half the reason I was assuming Fate was scum because I didn't think there's any way that anyone pro-town could read Ether's posts and not see that they all screamed town.

5

1: No, it didn’t. Theory is a shit reason to vote somebody, especially on someone with an exprerimental / new playstyle (this is our first game as a hydra together, outside of Square Enix IV, which we replaced into are were immediately NK’ed. Literally 0 posts.)
2: Ehhhh… not really. Again, theory is a poor reason to vote someone, even at the top of a game.
3: This sounds like you’re trying really hard to defend your townread on her. I can understand that… but it’s certainly not the first explanation that comes to mind.
4 & 5: We’ve never played with Ether before, and this is pretty obviously meta-based info. Looking at Pathetric from a vantage point of just this game, they’re most certainly not obv-town.
--townpoints for you.

Your single vote change is enough to convince me of rampant opportunism.

D’uhhhh… what? Single ANYTHING =/= rampant. Sorry, try again.

Fez 201 has one thing that stands out in particular to me: “[Fate’s] town style is hard to emulate [as scum.]” This is blatantly false; Fate yells like a crazy person regardless of alignment. As I said in 203, the playstyle change is null.

1) The "silent" argument is completely false - we have produced more content than more than half the playerlist combined. Untrod Stranger, Reckamonic, Balam, BeaverWesel, and Mrs. Flay … go read those people and get back to us on the "silent" issue.
2) Your reference for AGM sheeping Fate is like what, one game? Terrible meta tell.
3) We have already stated that we are taking a unilateral approach to this game. We discuss and agree on all posts before we make them. This necessarily leads to less posting because we have to both be on at the same time to talk before we can make a post.
4) You are refuting yourself. Obviously Edge was completely out of control, so it would logically make sense that Fate would try something different this time.

1) By “silent” she meant “not yelling.”
2) Fair ‘nuff.
3) That was her point.
4) Again, her point exactly.

I really like Daspot’s 208. Good points, methinks.

US… not liking 229. You’re putting a whole crapton of words in YFC’s mouth. Hell, they never even MENTIONED reasoning and / or deduction. I don’t like it.

Balam: you three should not be allowed to play in-hydra together. If you’re scum, that is COMPLETELY UNFAIR for the town.

Reads:
Scum: US, Pathetric
Town: FD

[GummyBear]

^^^

-quadz

[YosFlavouredCayke]

1: No, it didn’t. Theory is a shit reason to vote somebody, especially on someone with an exprerimental / new playstyle

I would say she didn't vote you for "theory", exactly, she voted you for anti-town play, and at the time I agreed with her. I tend to agree that your reluctance to give any reads at all, even for days, when you can't confer probably is anti-town, in that it both stalls the game and makes you harder to read, but now that I've gone back and done an ISO on you, it's consistent with your earlier thought process, so I don't think it's a scum-tell.

Still, in the future; if you can't confer, but have time to post, I would like to see you post some relevant thoughts on who might be scum in the game. Basically, I don't care if you post together or post separately, but if you can't post together then having at least one player in your hydra playing the game is much better for the town then not hearing anything relevant from either of you. Don't worry so much about contradicting yourself, that doesn't really matter.

3: This sounds like you’re trying really hard to defend your townread on her. I can understand that… but it’s certainly not the first explanation that comes to mind.

Huh? What other explanation is there?

Take a look at her posts. She was the only person voting for you, and it's pretty obvious that her goal was not to convince other people to vote for you, or to get a quick lynch through on you, or whatever; her goal was to get a rise out of you, to force to to react to her, in order to try to get a read on you.

I mean, look at her posts here. First she tries to find out who you suspect. When she won't answer you, she says this:

I'm afraid you'll catch me if I don't rehearse all of my stances first.

-Ether

She eventually votes you, and then when you ask her why, she says this:

Well, I'm gonna sleep now. Long day tomorrow. I guess you two can confer and figure it out.

-Ether

She's not trying to lynch you here, or trying to build a case or whatever. She's trying to get a read on you, trying to make you react or do something in-thread that will allow her to understand you, trying to pressure you into placing a vote or something, and basically is trying to piss you off if necessary in order to get you to react. At this point in the game, you were being entirely unreadable, and possibly deliberately so, so she decided to try and pick a fight with you to get a read on you; basically, she's trying to piss you off here so you'll do something, anything. That's a risky, and entirely pro-town, move; scum have no reason to make enemies like that.

I thought all of that was fairly obvious from her posting, and that doesn't have anything to do with meta. I'm not surprised it's hard for you to see it, since it's you she's picking a fight with here, but I was confused why Fate didn't see it.

4 & 5: We’ve never played with Ether before, and this is pretty obviously meta-based info.

Yeah, that is true, but I was under the impression that Ether's meta was fairly well known.

Anyway, all in all, I like this gummy-post. They do seem to be honestly trying to get a read on people, and seem to be trying to read people fairly without regard to how it benefits them or not; for example, if Gummy was scum, I'd expect they'd be encouraging UT to attack me for tactical reasons, not calling him out on false statements. All in all, good vibes.

[GummyBear]

Still, in the future; if you can't confer, but have time to post, I would like to see you post some relevant thoughts on who might be scum in the game. Basically, I don't care if you post together or post separately, but if you can't post together then having at least one player in your hydra playing the game is much better for the town then not hearing anything relevant from either of you. Don't worry so much about contradicting yourself, that doesn't really matter.

Ok. Fair enough. Like we've said, both of us have just had bad experiences with scum hydras getting away with contradicting themselves in what would otherwise be scummy ways, just because they blame it on the other head. We're trying out the whole united front thing, but it's obvious we shouldn't abuse that, as you're right, it would ultimately detract from the game.

I think we'll both be better about being able to respond more often from now on.

Speaking of which, quadz is responding to one other point in your post in a different post. This particular one was just mainly about outside issues...or what have you.

Take a look at her posts. She was the only person voting for you, and it's pretty obvious that her goal was not to convince other people to vote for you, or to get a quick lynch through on you, or whatever; her goal was to get a rise out of you, to force to to react to her, in order to try to get a read on you.

...

She's not trying to lynch you here, or trying to build a case or whatever. She's trying to get a read on you, trying to make you react or do something in-thread that will allow her to understand you, trying to pressure you into placing a vote or something, and basically is trying to piss you off if necessary in order to get you to react. At this point in the game, you were being entirely unreadable, and possibly deliberately so, so she decided to try and pick a fight with you to get a read on you; basically, she's trying to piss you off here so you'll do something, anything. That's a risky, and entirely pro-town, move; scum have no reason to make enemies like that.

4 & 5: We’ve never played with Ether before, and this is pretty obviously meta-based info.

Yeah, that is true, but I was under the impression that Ether's meta was fairly well known.

Mmm. This sounds a lot like Hoopla from my experience with her. I can safely say that quadz would say the same. We'll keep that in mind, but the way you're looking at it makes a lot more sense than someone deliberately being...whatever she was being.

-Singer

[GummyBear]

Huh? What other explanation is there?

My immediate, semi-kneejerk response to a quick wagon hop is "scummy," essentially. Your post makes her reasoning for hopping off of our backs a little clearer, though, so that particular read is slightly dialed down.

Also, we just noticed that we didn't vote in our catch-up post. As a remedy for that, our number 1 scumpick, then and now:

VOTE: Untrod Stranger

-quadz

[Untrod Stranger]

So Gummy comes flying in from the lurker shadows, cape flapping in the wind, ready to save us all.

...but then starts talking about some irrelevant bullshit about some Ether person that not only does no one other than the FOS'ed Yos cares about but also no one is voting for anyways. In case you didnt notice Gummy, there are a few votes on Froggy that you are extremely conveniently ignoring. Did you and Yos go to the same school of misdirection? Oh wait, im wrong, you did say ONE thing about Froggy, you gave a giant thumbs up because they said something off topic that has nothing to do with anything and then mention some other inconsequential line and then run off to play with Yos some more.

Do you think we are stupid out here Gummy? You dont think anyone would notice your non-committal to the matter at hand? Are the opinions of the other votes not important for you to maybe analyze what Froggy is up to? All you are basically doing is "Ether Ether Ether Ether Ether Ether Ether Ether Ether Ether Ether Ether , vote Untrod Stranger".

[Greymarble]

Hydra discussions are ongoing. Interesting stuff may or may not occur.

[Pathetric]

vote: Untrod Stranger

-Ether

[Greymarble]

Oh yeah, Time Out! It's advice for GummyBear. And GummyBear is town. I DGB it so.

Don't wallpost. Why? You miss stuff. Instead take the time and distill it into reads. Think about it logically. Hydra = good time to start doing this. Gut advises logic. Stream of consciousness tells you nothing. One plus one isn't always two, but that's a good start. Two things I think you missed:

Greymarble’s vote on FD in 127 concerns us quite a bit. I don’t like the lack of explanation at all. But then you explain without being prompted in 131, so nevermind. It’s null. (Though we don’t agree with your meta-case.)

+town points for calling it bullshit
-sanity points for missing the fact that I claimed it bullshit later in thread.

*thumbsup* We approve of the Fate / AGM hydra, in general. Playstyle, thoughts, all of the above. It’s a good change, you guys.

Fez 201 has one thing that stands out in particular to me: “[Fate’s] town style is hard to emulate [as scum.]” This is blatantly false; Fate yells like a crazy person regardless of alignment. As I said in 203, the playstyle change is null.

Town: FD

*headdesk*

He's town, but I hate this reasoning.

++ Awesome points for effort

Just prefer to see it go in a different direction. "I apologize for the length of the letter, for I had not the time to write a shorter one."

[Untrod Stranger]

Your single vote change is enough to convince me of rampant opportunism.

D’uhhhh… what? Single ANYTHING =/= rampant. Sorry, try again.

Durrwhat? Throwing an opportunistic vote means you're being opportunistic. You're disagreeing with a modifier, not the idea itself. If you don't think it's opportunistic then prove why. If you do agree that it's opportunistic then I'm not sure what the issue is here. An opportunistic vote is way worse than us using hyperbole (which is our meta, by the way, so get used to it).That with your vote is buuuuuuuullshit. Why exactly are we your #1 scum read?

Balam: you three should not be allowed to play in-hydra together. If you’re scum, that is COMPLETELY UNFAIR for the town.

Cute.

@Gummy
How do you feel about Pathetric now that they put up a vote on your "#1 scum read"?
@Ether
Why?

[TheButtonmen]

Another Day Another Vote Count:

Frog Ergo Sum (4) - Untrod Stranger,Final Destination, DaSpotthatkillsu, Greymarble
Untrod Stranger (2)- Gummybear, Pathetric
Final Destination (2) - YosCayke, Frog Ergo Sum
DaSpotthatkillsu (1) - Unicorn
Unicorn (1) - Reckamonic
Mrs Flay (1) - Mrs Flay
Pathetric (1) - Beaver
YosFlavouredCayke (1) - Balam

[GummyBear]

US's responses are surprisingly defensive.

But to answer your question: now that we're more familiar with Ether's scumhunting style, I would say we're indifferent about their vote.

Also, I think you missed the part where quadz commented on your "case" on FES.

-Singer

[Final Destination]

Unvote:
Vote: YosCayke

[Final Destination]

Ok. I realized I didn't actually have a read on half the people in the game, so I went through and ISO's everyone I didn't have a solid read on (which was like 6 people, mostly because there are so many damn lurkers in this game). So, here's my analysis of everyone in the game at the moment. (Standard disclaimer, this is based on just the first 10 pages of day 1, expect reads and opinions to change wildly in the future based on new information, hunches, wild mood swings, and whatever I eat for breakfast, ect ect.)

Frogito Ergo Sum-Leaning town. Bandwagony tendencies are what I’d expect from CES. Most of the posts so far feel more like CES then like Shanba, based on my rough meta of the two of them; if I’m right about that, I’d like to hear some more from Shanba.

Pathetric-100% superdupertriplelooper obvtown

Gummybear-Eh. Less scummy when read in ISO then I was thinking off the top of my head. Thing with Ether is probably just a theory disagreement, and is consistant with earlier comments about UB and such. Null. I really do want to hear a read from them, though; they’ve said nothing about who they find suspicious or who the find town-ish at all. They promised they’d do so soon, and I hope to hear from them about it.

Final Destination-scummy.

Balam-Don’t really have a problem with the vote on DaSpotthatkillsu, although I am wondering why, exactally; only thing he said was that thing about sigs, and that’s not exacatlly a scumtell. He hasn’t done anything since. Borderline lurker; just responded to a prod; expect to hear from them soon.

Mrs. Flay-Severe lurker. Has yet to make a useful post this game. Needs to post or die. Guys, I know there’s 4 of you, and odds are Flameaxe has probably already flaked, so I’m not surprised you’re having trouble coming to a consensus, but that’s ok; if any of you has any opinion on anything, just post it and we’ll move on from there, or just post both sides of a disagreement you have, or something. You guys need to get some thoughts down into the thread.

Reckamonic-I don’t really get the attack on Unicorn. I guess it was a joke vote, ish, but he’s kept it on all game, possibly because they've been lurking since rvs. Needs to get in here and post.

Greymarble- Leaning town. I like the reasoning on Final Destination, and his reluctant conclusion that UB is probably town in his ISO post 10 and 12 feels really town to me.

Untrod Stranger- Could be tunneling town at this point. I don’t get why he’s so uber-committed to getting frog lynched that he’s willing to overcommit so heavily to the wagon and willing to mow down everyone who’s even remotely in his way, pretty much without any regard to facts or reason, and it’s especially odd considering that his case on frog really isn’t strong. Still, town tunnel like that so often I can’t really call it a scumtell.

BeaverWeasel-Has been mostly useless. Has been voting Pathetic all game and I have no idea why. Has also been lurking. If there’s one lurkerscum in this game, it might be this guy.

Unicorn Brethren- I think they’re probably town. A bunch of different people posting from this account, but they all give good vibes, they all make sense to me, in different ways.

DaSpotthatkillsu- Borderline scummy.

Summery:
Town: Ether.
Leaning town: Greymarble, frog, unicorn.
Null-ish: Gummybear, US.
Lurking: Mrs Flay, Balam, Reck.
Lurkerscum: Balam.
Borderline Scummy: DaSpot
Scummy: Final Destiation.

-Yos

Let's start with this post and how horrible the reads are.

First of all, is this REALLY what you say about your TOP scumread (where vote is at)?:

Final Destination-scummy.

"Scummy." But never a WHY, or never an EXPLANATION. Basically, Yos has been unable to find anything scum-motivated about our posts after AGM's rage post, and his lil chain-saw defense of ether, and has just blanket-all called them "scummy" and "nothing in there to make me think you're town." Really? HE EVEN GOES SO FAR TO SAY:

If you have anything specific you want me to respond to, I'll be glad to do so.

Is he scumhunting here, (town-motivated) or DEFENDING himself? (scum motivated). "Tell me what you want me to respond to and I'll post it." That's a reactionary playstyle, that's scummy as fuck. He doesn't go out and TRY to find the scum motivation in our posts, he even goes so far as to say "your suspicion of DaSpot is reasonable" instead of finding some fault with it.

And if he doesn't find fault, aka maybe we're town, why doesn't he adjust his READ? This lack of read adjustment comes up later, when he confers with Ether on her read of us:

I'm not really clear why Ether has decided FD is town now. If she wants to explain, that's cool; otherwise, like I just said to Cayke, let Ether wander off and be a loose cannon pointed in one direction, we'll wander off and be a loose cannon pointed in the other direction, and the scum's got to start falling out of the trees one way or the other.

TO WHICH ETHER SAYS "AGM's reaction was townish, given Greymarble admitting the meta was false."

TO WHICH YOS SAYS:

...
Nothing. His next post, #260, does NOTHING to further debate our alignment with Ether. If Ether is OBVTOWN101, why is he dodging her read of us as Town? Why is he not debating her and trying to point out why he thinks we are scum to her, and why AGM's reaction was more scum than town?

He's fine to have all the BENEFITS of defending town, but none of the ACTUAL responsibilities that come with it:
Aka forming a bloc, discussing reads, etc.
BECAUSE HE HAS A FUCKING SCUMMY AGENDA TO ATTEND TO, SO HE CANT LEASH HIMSELF TO ETHER.

ALSO:

"Buddying" is a terrible scumtell. If someone is obviously town, and there's multiple people voting for them, I'm sure as hell going to say so. Giving reads on people who are town is a good idea anyway. In any case, pro-town people should work together, and when multiple pro-town people figure out each other's alignment and form a pro-town voting block, it makes it much harder for scum to win.

I don't know who ever came up with the idea "hey, whenever person A says person B is town it's scummy", but they were wrong. The whole taboo on defending someone or saying when you think they're town is just bad mafia theory.

-Yos

There's also this post, which is no better than FLUFFLOLTHEORY talking, convienetly a theory that DEFENDS HIS ACTIONS as town. Is having a townread or defending a town read a scumtell? No.

But when it makes up literally more than half of YosCayke's ISO, the intent is more clearly buddying that defending Ether. Ether was under no pressure at the time YosCayke makes such elaborate defenses of her.

Why? Because scum are starved at faking content. They have to post SOMETHING, and if its bull-shit it won't fly. So Yos posts what he CAN POST, an explanation of Ether-town's motives for her actions.
1. He's intimate with Ether, so this is easy content for him to post
2. It lures Ether into a false sense of security, having a nice white knight at her side at all times.

ALSO:
Ether asks Yos if she will vote him "when she votes real scum"
Yos doesn't respond to this. Is he unwilling to proxy his vote to town, but MORETHAN CONTENT to call her obvtown up and down the streets?



TLDR:
Most of YosCayke's can be summed up thusly:
1. Defending himself and his positions rather than scumhunting
2. Defending Ether extensively when she does not need it.
3. Chainsawing Ether, but not adjusting his reads in light of new content from his "top suspect" nor elaborating on why his read remains "scum"
4. Unwilling to have town on town relations with Ether, despite calling her town a thousand times

[Final Destination]

Why we think FES might be town:

He's stubbornly on our wagon, plus the fact that both Yos and FES remain on our wagon leads us to believe they are not scum together. Yosarian's "defense" (a running theme in his scumagenda) of FES makes us believe he is trying to white knight more wagonned townies to have in his pocket.

Aka: We've come to the conclusion that if only one of FES/YOS is scum, its Yos, and that MAYBE just MAYBE FES is town that actually is bullheaded and stupid enough to think we're scum for shitty reasons, but at least he BELIEVES IT and is willing to ARGUE IT. Whereas Yos dodged every chance he can to elaborate on why we're scum, or to colloborate with his Ethersextownbuddy on our alignment.

P.S.:
FES, get your act together if you're town. Seriously.

[AGM Approved]

[TheButtonmen]

Mrs Flay has asked to be replaced, starting to look for a replacement now.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Heh. You really don't like being voted, do you Fate?

The fact is, I voted you for legitimately scummy behavior on your part, and I don't intend to unvote you unless I have a better suspect, or a reason to think my earlier on you was wrong. Just because Ether looks town, doesn't mean I'm going to unvote you just because she did. I'll unvote you if and when I think it's the right thing to do; right now, the only people who I might willing to vote instead of you are some of the scummy looking lurkers, since we're probably dealing with lurkerscum here.

Honestly, your claim that I'm not scumhunting is just strange. I went through and spent hours trying to get a read on every single person in the game. All you've done has been a series of bad OMGUS votes on people; first on Ether, who's obviously town, then on Frog, who is also probably town, and now on me. That's not scumhunting, that's you flipping out on people because you don't like them voting for you.

-Yos