Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[ICEninja]

Implosion, yes I have said a lot about you and Saint being scum buddies. You both happen to be my biggest scum reads, and you happen to have connections to each other. No matter how useless trying to form scum teams during day 1 is, I really think you both are going to flip scum. I can't vote for both of you at the same time, so I'll be happy lynching one of you today. Town has shown me several good reasons why it is a better idea to lynch Saint today than you.

Implosion continues to horribly fence sit regarding Saint. More evidence that he is scum, and even MORE evidence that he is scum after Saint flips scum.

I don't have knowledge of the setup. I mean, seriously. The guy claimed mason. If he's telling the truth, he's got a mason buddy. So if he can be cleared by a mason, yes I'm going to assume there is a mason in this game. Also, I don't want to give scum information, but I have suspicion there's a cop in this game, based on my own observations. Whats to say I wasn't just saying that to encourage any possible cop of confirming the alignment of Empking?

And Setael, no I don't "know" Saint is town. I think he's scum. I've been wrong before, and it will happen again, but I think he's scum. Also, believe me when I say I suck as scum. I really am scum hunting here.

[DarthYoshi]

Mmmkay, my responses to Implosion's comments to me--I promise this won't be much of a wall.

Implosion:

I wouldn't call it "wagonhopping." I mean, technically it was, but deadline was approaching and there were two clear leading bandwagons.

Yeah, deadline was approaching, but IIRC, you, like many on the Mb wagon, expressed little suspicion of him beforehand. You hopping on the Saint wagon would have looked even odder, given your comments about the _over wagon on that playslot that caused some of us to suspect you to begin with (never mind the possibility that you two are scumchums together). So, yeah, your vote on Mb looks like it was hopped on by default.

Implosion:

First of all, hypocrisy isn't a scumtell.

Hypocrisy by itself, no. I was trying to point out that you were looking quite scummy yourself. If Mb looks scummy because of X and Y, and Implosion is exhibiting X and Y, then Implosion probably looks scummy.

Implosion:

Second of all, how do you find my voting pattern scummy? My vote was on Emp because the deadline was approaching, then there was an extension which allowed time for new wagons to form.

Actually, your vote was on Emp's slot way back when it belonged to Mongoose, and I'm not sure it ever changed. Which isn't necessarily scummy, but I don't think you parked your vote on Emp for the reasons that you're stating now. In any case, I still see your Mb vote as scummish.

Also, your vote on ICE is giving off fumes of eau d'OMGUS. Actually, now that I look at it, the ICE wagon is covered in Drakkar OMGUS Noir.

Finally, in a sentence, what's your read on Saint? You seem to hedge a lot about him in your catchup posts. What would you think about him being today's lynch?

@Setael: I'm going to need to go back and re-read you vis-a-vis Saint before I reply. You're not off the hook yet. I just wanted to get my responses to Implosion out while I had the time.

[implosion]

Why are you placing so much value on scumteam speculation? At this point, honestly, it seems like the majority of your case on me...

I can't speak for ICEninja here, but a key point in MY case against you was that your interactions with _over9000 / Saint and their wagon were scummy regardless of Saint's alignment; there were evident scum motives either way, and your actions were unusual for a town player, explained or not. It's not just "scumteam speculation" that players find you scummy.

Well first of all, I still fail to see how my interactions with that slot are scummy. I've justified everything that I've said. And second of all, look at the quoted posts from ICE and how they tunnel on not just one person, but on two people as a scumteam.

Funny joke question there.

How is it a joke question to ask a player to explain their vote on me?

This was sarcasm (directed at Emp not explaining anything).

So Saint, you apparently seem to know the setup... how?

You also seem to have knowledge of the setup.

This is a closed setup. Scum aren't going to know any more about the town power roles than town are, so why are you acting as if this is a scumtell?

First of all, remember the fundamental premise of the game of mafia: an informed minority against an uninformed majority. The minority is, by definition, more informed about the setup because they know what roles they have (and can then gauge how strong the town is). And second of all, more importantly, flawed reasoning is flawed reasoning. People reasoning things out from information that they don't know and have no way of ascertaining (unlike alignments, which can be ascertained through scumhunting) is pointless and should be pointed out.

Nameless/ICE reads of Saint's post: this does actually make Saint look very scummy. And yet, I don't know. Part of it might be that I think ICE is scum, which would make Saint likely town.

This is exactly as much of scumteam speculation as you're accusing ICEninja of doing, you know.

To an extent; however, what ICE was trying to do (tie an essentially inextricable link between me and Saint) is different than me saying that I'll think X is town if Y flips scum, insofar as his claim is much stronger and more than that, saying 2 people are both scum if either of them flip scum for sure is a much more... unlikely claim, for lack of a better word. As Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. Me saying that Saint is likely town if ICE flips scum is much less of an "extraordinary" claim than ICE saying that me/Saint are almost definitely both scum.

[implosion]

Implosion, yes I have said a lot about you and Saint being scum buddies. You both happen to be my biggest scum reads, and you happen to have connections to each other. No matter how useless trying to form scum teams during day 1 is, I really think you both are going to flip scum. I can't vote for both of you at the same time, so I'll be happy lynching one of you today. Town has shown me several good reasons why it is a better idea to lynch Saint today than you.

You both admit that speculation is useless and say that you're going to continue doing it... sigh. The point I'm making isn't that you're pushing us because we're your biggest scumreads; my point is that in nearly every one of your recent posts, you say that you're pushing us because you see a link between us.

Implosion continues to horribly fence sit regarding Saint. More evidence that he is scum, and even MORE evidence that he is scum after Saint flips scum.

I agree, I am fence sitting. I'm getting very mixed ideas about Saint's slot. I'm really unsure about it at this point.

I don't have knowledge of the setup. I mean, seriously. The guy claimed mason. If he's telling the truth, he's got a mason buddy. So if he can be cleared by a mason, yes I'm going to assume there is a mason in this game. Also, I don't want to give scum information, but I have suspicion there's a cop in this game, based on my own observations. Whats to say I wasn't just saying that to encourage any possible cop of confirming the alignment of Empking?

Okay, first off, you saying that you think there's a cop in the game based on your own observation is both 1) completely unverifiable (since verification would mean outing someone that you apparently think is a cop), and 2) completely scummy (since town members will be focusing on finding mafia rather than finding town power roles or trying to figure out a closed setup).

Second off, you've basically admitted that you're speculating about the setup and have based some of your reasoning on speculation. If you're town, don't do that.

Mmmkay, my responses to Implosion's comments to me--I promise this won't be much of a wall.

Implosion:

I wouldn't call it "wagonhopping." I mean, technically it was, but deadline was approaching and there were two clear leading bandwagons.

Yeah, deadline was approaching, but IIRC, you, like many on the Mb wagon, expressed little suspicion of him beforehand. You hopping on the Saint wagon would have looked even odder, given your comments about the _over wagon on that playslot that caused some of us to suspect you to begin with (never mind the possibility that you two are scumchums together). So, yeah, your vote on Mb looks like it was hopped on by default.

If it "looks like it was hopped on by default," I don't really see how it's scummy. I mean, after the deadline extension, it was either keep my vote on Emp (not much reason to) or... dare I say it... hop onto another wagon. Based on the circumstances, I don't see how the vote is scummy.

Implosion:

First of all, hypocrisy isn't a scumtell.

Hypocrisy by itself, no. I was trying to point out that you were looking quite scummy yourself. If Mb looks scummy because of X and Y, and Implosion is exhibiting X and Y, then Implosion probably looks scummy.

Fair enough. Again though, I was really busy around the time of late yesterday-early today.

Implosion:

Second of all, how do you find my voting pattern scummy? My vote was on Emp because the deadline was approaching, then there was an extension which allowed time for new wagons to form.

Actually, your vote was on Emp's slot way back when it belonged to Mongoose, and I'm not sure it ever changed. Which isn't necessarily scummy, but I don't think you parked your vote on Emp for the reasons that you're stating now. In any case, I still see your Mb vote as scummish.

See above.

Also, your vote on ICE is giving off fumes of eau d'OMGUS. Actually, now that I look at it, the ICE wagon is covered in Drakkar OMGUS Noir.

If someone attacks me with a bad case, I'm going to attack them for it.

Finally, in a sentence, what's your read on Saint? You seem to hedge a lot about him in your catchup posts. What would you think about him being today's lynch?

In a sentence, I think the slot is slightly more likely to be town than to be mafia. I mentioned somewhere in the wallposts that I would vote for Saint if an ICE wagon doesn't get going, because my read on the slot is so fluctuating and because it's a good informational lynch.

[ICEninja]

You both admit that speculation is useless and say that you're going to continue doing it... sigh.

It isn't even speculation at this point. I think you're scum. I think Saint is scum. I ALSO think that you two are scum together. It simply makes sense and I have presented reasoning why. These are the reads that my scum hunting has gathered me.

I agree, I am fence sitting. I'm getting very mixed ideas about Saint's slot. I'm really unsure about it at this point.

You say that you have a neutral slightly leaning town read on the Saint slot. If you can't get a wagon on me, then your second alternative is to turn around and lynch a neutral slightly leaning town player for an information lynch. What does this say about the quality of your scum hunting? Scum doesn't need to get reads on people, they already know who is town and who is scum. Town needs to really dig deep and get reads for themselves as to who is scum.

Okay, first off, you saying that you think there's a cop in the game based on your own observation is both 1) completely unverifiable (since verification would mean outing someone that you apparently think is a cop)

Why would I want to verify this? I don't want a cop to claim until he/she has sufficient information to make it worth being night killed.

and 2) completely scummy (since town members will be focusing on finding mafia rather than finding town power roles or trying to figure out a closed setup).

If you've never been looking for scum and found PR tells then you simply aren't reading carefully enough. It happens, during the course of examining people's play, that you find what people's motives are. Scum and town have very different motives. PRs and VTs have slightly different motives. Just because I'm not looking for them doesn't mean I don't find them.

Second off, you've basically admitted that you're speculating about the setup and have based some of your reasoning on speculation.

If by "basing some of my reasoning on speculation" you mean trying to figure out if Emp's mason claim checks out or not, then yes. I am doing that because town needs to know if he's a mason or if he's scum. I didn't realize this is scummy.
If by "basing some of my reasoning on speculation" you mean having you and Saint pegged as likely scum buddies, I'm assuming there is more than 1 scum in this game so there's no speculation involved there.
I haven't based ANY reasoning of any kind on there being a cop or not in this game.

Unfortunately for you, the wagon on me taking off isn't terribly likely. You're better off jumping on the Saint wagon now and trying to put together a good reason to do it in order to gain some shred of town cred for tomorrow.

[Swiftstrike]

Ice reply to my post and a subsequent question by someone else after that makes me feel a lot happier about his statement I pulled him up on as there is a logic behind it I can follow and somewhat agree with.
--
Darth Yoshi looking at your style of asking questions of other players such as this.

@Nameless: How exactly has Implosion redeemed himself? I see little scumhunting happening from him, and perfunctory defenses at best.

or these

Neko:

Why not mb's? Other than Saint, he listed implosion and swiftstrike. Why shouldn't we be looking into them?

We should. I’m rather dismayed at how much active lurking the town is tolerating from these two (including from Swift’s predecessor). And, is there a reason why you didn't vote Saint? When you posted, there wasn't a risk of putting him at L-1.

@Setael: While I agree that lynching Saint could provide us with a lot of information—a Saint town flip would force me to rethink a number of my reads—you’re putting a vote on player without actually saying why you think that player is scum. The closest you get is saying that your reasons for not wagoning Saint weren’t that strong. If you think Saint is scum, why? If you don’t think he is scum, then why are you voting for him?

@ICE: Has your read on Emp changed? IIRC, you were pretty against lynching him on D1, but #620 is the second time already on D2 that you’ve expressed (unprompted) suspicion of Emp.

@Zdenek and Swiftstrike: Could each of you explain the scumslips you saw in one another? Saying they are scumslips doesn't make them scumslips--I'm wondering if I'm missing something, and the extreme brevity isn't helping.

Reminds me of how I play scum, asking question of players about another player to create a tension between those players rather than asking something a little bit more direct of a player have you got any game I could read where you played as town and asked questions in this same way, because at the moment I am a little wary of you because of how much it reminds me of my own scum style.

[Saint]

#664, if i was on a scumteam with empking, why the fuck did I push a case on him at the start of today...?
I'm ignoring you, mainly, nameless, because your tunneling is anti-town. It would be like, having a crying baby that you give a treat to. No. You spank it.

[Saint]

I'd hoped to have time to make a post today, but it doesn't look like I will have a chance.

Mod and everyone: I will be V/LA until Sunday

I apologize for these frequent absences. I've been traveling a lot these past three weeks, but my schedule will calm down after this week.

scum lurking imo

[Saint]

-cut-
no I don't "know" Saint is town. I think he's scum. I've been wrong before, and it will happen again, but I think he's scum. Also, believe me when I say I suck as scum. I really am scum hunting here.

"he's scum, but I will be wrong again"
see this disclaimer?
It's like saying, hey, guys, lynch this guy... even if I'm usually wrong about who I lynch, or my reads... when in fact, he probably DOES know I'm town. I don't see why I had a town read on this guy.

Although Zdenek isn't getting off his ass to do something productive, we will get to see IceNinja flip scum. It is better to lynch the more active scum than the inactive.

unvote: Zdenek

VOTE: IceNinja

[Saint]

Also, ice, considering your "awesome reads" /joke, they are fucking terrible

Implosion and I have both addressed a willingness to wagon the other
he said, and I quote, "I am willing to lynch saint if iceninja's wagon doesn't get going", and I pushed him and MB as a scumteam yesterday, WHERE I TRIED TO WAGON HIM FOR LIKE A WEEK.

How is that indicative of us being a scumteam together?
You simply saying we're a scumteam doesn't cut it
make up a fabricated case, scum

[Swiftstrike]

-cut-
no I don't "know" Saint is town. I think he's scum. I've been wrong before, and it will happen again, but I think he's scum. Also, believe me when I say I suck as scum. I really am scum hunting here.

"he's scum, but I will be wrong again"
see this disclaimer?
It's like saying, hey, guys, lynch this guy... even if I'm usually wrong about who I lynch, or my reads... when in fact, he probably DOES know I'm town. I don't see why I had a town read on this guy.

Although Zdenek isn't getting off his ass to do something productive, we will get to see IceNinja flip scum. It is better to lynch the more active scum than the inactive.

unvote: Zdenek

VOTE: IceNinja

Why is it better to lynch more active scum than an inactive one, surely a more active scum is more likely to slip that an inactive one? At the moment Saint your jumping wagons to start a counter wagon on anyone has me wondering if I have read this Zdenek thing right and whether you should be today's lynch.

[Setael]

Swiftstrike, what do you think of ice?

[Swiftstrike]

What I think of Ice I already pretty much summed it up a few posts ago

Ice reply to my post and a subsequent question by someone else after that makes me feel a lot happier about his statement I pulled him up on as there is a logic behind it I can follow and somewhat agree with.

To expand on this a little. After reading his post that seemed to indicate that he knew Emp was scum, I was thinking a possible scum slip so I asked about this as it looked something his reply to my post and the follow up question from you in 654 make me feel less uneasy about what he said there.

[ICEninja]

It makes me giggle to see how much OMGUS there is in my wagon.

Saint and implosion have shown a desire to lynch each other but always hedge, seeming to make sure it doesn't actually happen. They say they want to lynch each other but their actions imply they don't want the other person's lynch. Then they go for the person who wants them lynched without solid reasoning. Tsk.

scum lurking imo

So we agree on one thing. I do not like how much Zdenek is flying under the radar for day 2.

It's like saying, hey, guys, lynch this guy... even if I'm usually wrong about who I lynch, or my reads... when in fact, he probably DOES know I'm town.

First of all, I did

not

say I'm usually wrong. I said I've been wrong before, and I will be wrong again. Have you been wrong before about your town reads? Will you be wrong again?

I think I'm right, but in mafia you have to get used to the idea of being wrong once in a while. NOT a scum mindset at all, because scum is (almost) always right about their alignment reads (barring multiple scum teams and 3rd party).

I don't see why I had a town read on this guy.

Because you weren't desperate then. It didn't benefit scum Saint to have a scum read on me. I'm probably the easiest non-Saint lynch right now, so of course you're going to jump on my wagon.

Implosion and I have both addressed a willingness to wagon the other
he said, and I quote, "I am willing to lynch saint if iceninja's wagon doesn't get going", and I pushed him and MB as a scumteam yesterday, WHERE I TRIED TO WAGON HIM FOR LIKE A WEEK.

Implosion has never actually shown that he is willing to lynch you, only suggested he is. You've shown that you're willing to lynch him, but will speedily hop off in favor of another target.

Yoshi, how about you hop on the Saint wagon and put him at L-1? After he flips scum, we'll have an incredibly solid case to push against implosion tomorrow. I simply don't think we're going to get enough support for an implosion lynch without a scum flip on Saint first. I actually do admit that a decent amount of my case against implosion relies on Saint's flip, where Saint looks scummy regardless. It just makes more sense to lynch Saint first.

[Empking]

I've rethought this game. I think I may have tunelled. When taking into account the fact that scum found me useful enough to outweigh my masonness I'm going to say:

Unvote

Vote: Saint

L-1

[Setael]

Yoshi, how about you hop on the Saint wagon and put him at L-1? After he flips scum, we'll have an incredibly solid case to push against implosion tomorrow.

And if he flips town, maybe we can get more steam behind your wagon. Maybe one of your buddies will even bus you for us.

Nobody hammer. He hasn't claimed as far as I remember.

[Empking]

Yoshi, how about you hop on the Saint wagon and put him at L-1? After he flips scum, we'll have an incredibly solid case to push against implosion tomorrow.

And if he flips town, maybe we can get more steam behind your wagon. Maybe one of your buddies will even bus you for us.

Nobody hammer. He hasn't claimed as far as I remember.

He claimed VT yesterday.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

#664, if i was on a scumteam with empking, why the fuck did I push a case on him at the start of today...?
I'm ignoring you, mainly, nameless, because your tunneling is anti-town. It would be like, having a crying baby that you give a treat to. No. You spank it.

Because he is gonna die anyway and bussing him might give you town points of course.
Comparing nameless to a crying baby? Wow, thats not insulting

at all.

I'd hoped to have time to make a post today, but it doesn't look like I will have a chance.

Mod and everyone: I will be V/LA until Sunday

I apologize for these frequent absences. I've been traveling a lot these past three weeks, but my schedule will calm down after this week.

scum lurking imo

He could just be V/LA.

-cut-
no I don't "know" Saint is town. I think he's scum. I've been wrong before, and it will happen again, but I think he's scum. Also, believe me when I say I suck as scum. I really am scum hunting here.

"he's scum, but I will be wrong again"
see this disclaimer?
It's like saying, hey, guys, lynch this guy... even if I'm usually wrong about who I lynch, or my reads... when in fact, he probably DOES know I'm town. I don't see why I had a town read on this guy.

Although Zdenek isn't getting off his ass to do something productive, we will get to see IceNinja flip scum. It is better to lynch the more active scum than the inactive.

unvote: Zdenek

VOTE: IceNinja

Votehopping, of course he will be wrong again if he was perfect there would be no point to all of this discussion we could just sheep the guy who is perfect, he didn't say he was usually wrong, you manage to ignore the part of the quote I find suspicious, IE: "I suck as scum, I really am scum hunting here," unneccesarily restating that you are town, instantly changing from town to scum because he thinks you are scummy, overconfidence in IceNinja being scum with little case, and I think inactive scum would be better to kill than active, since active has more chance of slipping up.

There, I think that is everything thats wrong with this particular post.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Oh, and Emps right. Saint inexplicably claimed VT under no pressure day 1. I actually meant to put that in my post but somehow managed not to.

[Setael]

No, Neil did. Saint hasn't claimed.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

No, Neil did. Saint hasn't claimed.

Did to. Hold on, I'll ISO and quote it.

@IPie's 321

:
I am for mass-claiming, however, we may out our power roles.
I am just a VT.
...

There ya go.

[Setael]

Ah my bad. Saint really is terrible if he's town. Pretty sure he is though (amiright ice?)

I won't be hammering.

[Nameless]

#664, if i was on a scumteam with empking, why the fuck did I push a case on him at the start of today...?

It's almost like bussing is a thing that exists and can happen! Also, I can't help but notice how you quick you are to attack that hypothosis (made in response to Setael jumping in for Emp) in comparison to how slow you've generally been to answer questions posed directly at you. Plus how you suddenly go from 'liking' my posts (and unvoting me) back to accusing me of tunneling and general insults.

Implosion: If you only consider Saint slightly scummy, which players do you rank between Saint and ICEninja in terms of individual scumminess?

SETAEL TO THE RESCUE. And away!

[ICEninja]

Ah my bad. Saint really is terrible if he's town.

He's claimed fur, which could very well explain his behavior, but even fur gets scum role PMs. I believe this to be one of such instances.

Pretty sure he is though

This seems slightly at odds with you thinking Saint is really terrible if he's town.

[Setael]

Pretty sure he is though

This seems slightly at odds with you thinking Saint is really terrible if he's town.

What are you talking about? I'm pretty sure he's town. As likely town, it's terrible play to claim when he did. What's at odds here?

You're grasping at straws to paint me scummy. It's more than obvious that you know Saint's going to flip town and you're planning to get me mislynched for it, just like you said you would. Even if he flips scum my bet is somehow you'll find a way to pin that on me. (nameless will help you with that one - according to him my vote today was a feeble attempt at bussing.)