Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[RedCoyote]

1) What is your time zone? This is good to know in case we have some oversees players and we're waiting for a post from them.
2) What is your mafia experience here and elsewhere? I like to know the experience levels from players, just in case there are any first timers mostly.
3) How often can we expect a post from you? Just for my personal reference, mostly.

1) Like AGar, it's all out of whack thanks to my work. I do really try to post once every 24 hours though.
2) Wiki
3) Answer 1.

---

I agree 100% with EA's post 64.

Vote: theplague42

Nothing else really pops out at me. ICE, EA, and AGar have begun to lay the foundation for townreads.

[Maemuki]

A vote for something you're doing too?

*shrugs* Granted I was being hypocritical, but only commenting when he's directly addressed is a (very minor) scumtell on my book. But it's good enough for this stage of the game, I guess.

@ ICE, I just have bad experiences with questioning at this stage. Actually, you doing it was more of a null-tell than anything.

Thinking a bit more about it, Erratus might be right. Doing something so eye-catching at this point wouldn't be a very good scum move, now would it?

Well I'm doing a lot more than just random voting then going to a OMGUS vote.
How does that help town in anyway?

...was that supposed to be funny?

Oh, by the way, it's not a OMGUS vote. You wanted discussion? There you have it. Now please, direct your attention to the game, even - no, especially - the parts you're not involved in. Scum only care about survival, don't they? They have no reason to scumhunt. You're not scumhunting. Therefore, you are scum until further notice.

And NE's vote isn't bullshit because it's on you. Deal with it.

[lewarcher82]

penpen has requested repacement.

Votecount coming later today

[Maemuki]

penpen has requested repacement.

lolwhut

My vote just gets more and more justified.

[Maemuki]

My vote just gets more and more justified.

Wait, no, he replaced out of the other game he was in too, apparently. My mistake. But it doesn't detract from his earlier scumminess.

[AGar]

OMGUS

I'm not voting you because you're voting me, I'm voting you for using non-town logic. So it's not OMGUS.

Excellent use of sarcasm in place of an actual defense though, it's a good way to hide the fact that you don't have one.

Trying to use semantics to build an early game bandwagon?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Erratus Apathos

"Trying to use semantics" no
"build an early game bandwagon" yes

Semantics = "It's not OMGUS, because this is why I did it!" You're twisting the definition of a word or phrase (in this case, OMGUS) to your liking.

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.

Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.

Okay, then explain how NE is using false logic to say that penpen's post has no content.

The false-logic isn't that the post has no content. The false-logic is "usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason" and using that as backing for a vote.

How is EA being pro-town at all? He's trying to build a wagon off of semantics. Not something even a hair more likely for scum to do, but semantics. Last I checked, that was a pretty cute little scum trick.

Quote me arguing semantics then. Because I haven't.

Look up.

---

I'm liking the EA wagon, especially his latest OMGUS against TP. Very comfortable with my vote.

[Exilon]

OMGUS

I'm not voting you because you're voting me, I'm voting you for using non-town logic. So it's not OMGUS.

Excellent use of sarcasm in place of an actual defense though, it's a good way to hide the fact that you don't have one.

So you're saying my random-voting stage vote needs to be NOT random?
So you're saying I called Ythan scum based on this QUESTION, BEFORE he even posted:

So Ythan, you're scum this time, yes?

I BSOD'd, specially after reading you saying I don't make sense.

---

Spoiler: because it's a contentless reply to Maemuki

Dammit, and here I was hoping that I would get to vote Exilon for living in the end of the world, but then this happens. Besides, all this WIFOM is making me drunk.

Actually screw it, I'll do it anyway. I know I should know how to make miller claims into actual discussion, but that's waaaaay beyond my abilities.

VOTE: Exilon

don't we know each other personally? I remember your name from somewhere.

End of the world my-

---

Ugh a miller claim. Last time I had one of those it was Parama claiming miller. He then claimed scum after we pushed a huge wagon on him. He was VT. I was very sad. Let's hope this situation isn't so painful.

Here are some standard questions I like to ask: (...)

Why would a VT claim miller then scum of all th- You know, let's just forget it.

1) Same as Maemuki, GMT.
2) I've played a handful of games on this site and 2 offsite. I don't count the offsite ones as real experience, though.
3) It pretty much depends on my time. Lately, I haven't been able to post long stuff, and sometimes that harms my ability to explain myself properly. Being concise is valued, though, but it's hard to do it right. I usually post whenever I can, though.

---

YOU TOLD ICENINJA YOU WOULD POST A COUPLE TIMES A DAY. THIS IS YOUR EIGHTH POST IN TWENTY FOUR HOURS. DID YOU LIE TO COVER YOUR TRACKS FOR LATER SCUM LURKING?

Or did you just not have a good idea of how often you were actually going to post?

Are you serious?

Let's walk through what just happened here. I put the FIRST vote on penpen, and I put the FIRST vote on Exilon. Plaguey here somehow comes to the conclusion that this constitutes "ultra-quick wagoning", while ignoring all the people who are, y'know, ACTUALLY WAGONING. Then he puts the FIFTH vote on me, with no hint of reservation. Does this sound like someone who honestly believes that quick wagoning is scummy?

Why are you getting so worked up for? That doesn't bound well for you. I think he was probably trying to say that you vote-hopped excessively, hence "ultra-quick wagoning" (since you started wagoning, or attempted to). I can see your logic, though, and agree partly to it.

Bullshit! Two FoS's is obviously not spamming. Why are you distorting the facts so terribly?

That's YOUR opinion, not HIS, and imposing yourself on him like that, while also accusing him of DISTORTING facts (not true) is bad.

Disagreeing with someone, while providing justification =/= Imposing one's opinions on others

The first is protown, the second is scummy. And you just blew off my radar.

---

Fatso, you should read the wiki a bit. Not take it as granted, of course, but read it. Online mafia can be drastically different from offline mafia, specially in what concerns scumtells.

I like my vote where it is. (no more RVS)

[lewarcher82]

Budja replaces penpen, effective now. Since replacement took just a few hours, no deadline extension is granted.

[lewarcher82]

Votecount 1.3

Fatso -0
Necessary Evil -0
mozamis -0
theplague42 -2 (Erratus Apathos, RedCoyote)
Ythan -0
ICEninja -0
RedCoyote -0
Klazam -0
Exilon -0
Budja -2 (Necessary Evil, Maemuki)

Erratus Apathos -4 (Exilon, AGar, mozamis, theplague42)

Maemuki -0
AGar -1 (Klazam)

Not Voting: Fatso, Ythan, ICEninja, Budja

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is March, 18th 2011 at 11:00 AM German Time (GMT+1)

[mozamis]

YOU TOLD ICENINJA YOU WOULD POST A COUPLE TIMES A DAY. THIS IS YOUR EIGHTH POST IN TWENTY FOUR HOURS. DID YOU LIE TO COVER YOUR TRACKS FOR LATER SCUM LURKING?

Or did you just not have a good idea of how often you were actually going to post?

touche

UNVOTE

[ICEninja]

@ ICE, I just have bad experiences with questioning at this stage. Actually, you doing it was more of a null-tell than anything.

It is a null tell. I do it every game as both scum and as town, as the reasons for wanting to know the answers to that question don't change depending on my alignment.

You're twisting the definition of a word or phrase (in this case, OMGUS) to your liking.

What? Waiting for Erratus to respond to this before I address it.

To anyone who didn't like Erratus's post 57, it was just to prove a point. Nothing scummy about it.

I really don't like the wagon on Erratus at all. I feel like AGar is the only person who is even remotely justified in their vote on him. There is very probably scum somewhere on the wagon of people with weak votes on him.

[ICEninja]

Crap, already a replacement? This better not be like day 1 in my other game, that had like 5 replacements.

*bump* if the other game is still running, I prefer it not to be mentioned in this thread, thx

[theplague42]

Ummm....

snip

"Trying to use semantics" no

"build an early game bandwagon" yes

Sound familiar? I'm not distorting facts. You directly said you wanted to start a bandwagon. Or are you just distorting facts?

Let's walk through what just happened here. I put the FIRST vote on penpen, and I put the FIRST vote on Exilon. Plaguey here somehow comes to the conclusion that this constitutes "ultra-quick wagoning", while ignoring all the people who are, y'know, ACTUALLY WAGONING. Then he puts the FIFTH vote on me, with no hint of reservation. Does this sound like someone who honestly believes that quick wagoning is scummy?

Why are you getting so worked up for? That doesn't bound well for you. I think he was probably trying to say that you vote-hopped excessively, hence "ultra-quick wagoning" (since you started wagoning, or attempted to). I can see your logic, though, and agree partly to it.

Generally, I believe that people who react like that are generally scum. It's the same as a guilty person calling a lawyer, while an innocent person shouldn't have to. Just because you say that I was wrong doesn't make it true, no matter how much effort you put into it. I have a direct example for that, but it's an ongoing game that I'm dead in so I can't say anything about it.

And how am I contradicting myself? RVS has long been over, and I think you're scum. Apparently a few other people do as well. I voted you for a reason, where as your votes had little to no reasoning behind them other than the usual RVS stuff.

Bullshit! Two FoS's is obviously not spamming. Why are you distorting the facts so terribly?

That's YOUR opinion, not HIS, and imposing yourself on him like that, while also accusing him of DISTORTING facts (not true) is bad.

Disagreeing with someone, while providing justification =/= Imposing one's opinions on others

The first is protown, the second is scummy. And you just blew off my radar.

It is indeed an opinion. FoS's are ways to put suspicion on someone without actually being committal about it. By voting for one person and putting FoS's on two others, you're spreading suspicion around as much as possible and trying to create town-on-town arguments.

[Exilon]

I'm confused, Plague. Why are you quoting me if you're addressing Erratus? Or am I missing something?

@Ice: Do you feel my vote on Erratus is unjustified?

[theplague42]

You had all of Erratus' post in your post, so I just decided to use that to show that you ninja'ed me on some stuff

[Necessary Evil]

The false-logic isn't that the post has no content. The false-logic is "usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason" and using that as backing for a vote.

You still haven't explained what is wrong with my reasoning, and you haven't addressed my later clarification post on the subject, so I'll clarify it again: scum are more likely to fail to random vote and fail to give a reason for not random voting. This read depends on his playstyle. What is wrong with this logic?

Very disappointed that penpen is replaced. His recent posting increased my suspicion. His posting was very active-lurky. My vote isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I'm not seeing Erratus Apathos as scum at all at the moment.

[Erratus Apathos]

Semantics = "It's not OMGUS, because this is why I did it!" You're twisting the definition of a word or phrase (in this case, OMGUS) to your liking.

Horse shit. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Omgus

shorthand to indicate that you are voting for someone

primarily because they voted for you.

I WASN'T VOTING FOR EXILON PRIMARILY BECAUSE HE VOTED FOR ME. THEREFORE IT ISN'T OMGUS. YOU LOSE.

I'm liking the EA wagon, especially his latest OMGUS against TP.

I SWEAR TO GOD, AGAR.

THAT. IS. NOT. FUCKING. OMGUS. EITHER.

NOW QUIT BEING A DUMBASS.

So you're saying my random-voting stage vote needs to be NOT random?

No. wtf, where did you get the idea that I said that? Other people cast blatantly random votes and I didn't attack them.

So you're saying I called Ythan scum based on this QUESTION, BEFORE he even posted:

So Ythan, you're scum this time, yes?

Uh... duh? "So Ythan, you're scum this time" is blatantly calling someone scum. The "yes?" on the end doesn't change that, because you're not asking Ythan if he is scum, you are calling him scum and then asking him for confirmation.

YOU TOLD ICENINJA YOU WOULD POST A COUPLE TIMES A DAY. THIS IS YOUR EIGHTH POST IN TWENTY FOUR HOURS. DID YOU LIE TO COVER YOUR TRACKS FOR LATER SCUM LURKING?

Or did you just not have a good idea of how often you were actually going to post?

Are you serious?

The last sentence is serious, the caps lock was just showing how silly it was to take the answers to ICE's questions as anything more than a vague guideline.

Let's walk through what just happened here. I put the FIRST vote on penpen, and I put the FIRST vote on Exilon. Plaguey here somehow comes to the conclusion that this constitutes "ultra-quick wagoning", while ignoring all the people who are, y'know, ACTUALLY WAGONING. Then he puts the FIFTH vote on me, with no hint of reservation. Does this sound like someone who honestly believes that quick wagoning is scummy?

Why are you getting so worked up for?

Cause I got me a scumbag.

Bullshit! Two FoS's is obviously not spamming. Why are you distorting the facts so terribly?

That's YOUR opinion, not HIS

No, actually these aren't anyone's opinions.

These are facts.

I FoS'd twice. That is a FACT. It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

Sound familiar? I'm not distorting facts. You directly said you wanted to start a bandwagon. Or are you just distorting facts?

I said I wanted to start a bandwagon. Wanted. Did I actually start one? I guess if you count Maemuki's random vote as a wagon, but really, no, I didn't start a wagon. Regardless, the problem with your attack on me isn't that you voted me for wanting to start a wagon, it's that you did so

while ignoring the people who actually were wagoning

.

Generally, I believe that people who react like that are generally scum. It's the same as a guilty person calling a lawyer, while an innocent person shouldn't have to.

Yeah, cause your average innocent person understands the complex legal system perfectly.

Oh wait, no they don't! Your comparison is fucking stupid, bro. What the hell does anything I said have to do with calling a lawyer anyways?

FoS's are ways to put suspicion on someone without actually being committal about it.

Okay then genius, how would a townie attack their top three suspects?

Seriously people. He isn't even attacking me because he thinks either of my FoS's are based on craplogic. He is attacking me

because I used FoS's

. That ain't scumhunting, that's attacking my playstyle. HE IS SCUM.

By voting for one person and putting FoS's on two others, you're spreading suspicion around as much as possible and trying to create town-on-town arguments.

OH LOL

HE JUST ADMITTED MY ARGUMENTS AGAINST FATSO AND MAEMUKI ARE TOWN ON TOWN

LYNCH TIME PLEASE

[Budja]

Here and reading up.
Erratus is stirring up reactions. He is guilty of some of the accusations thrown at him (eg. wagonhopping, exaggeration) but at this stage they are more town than scumtells.

vote: plague

[Ythan]

Trying to use semantics to build an early game bandwagon?

I don't agree with this. Erratus is correct about the meaning of omgus.

[Ythan]

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

As I said, I don't like this post from penpen.

Well You're not exactly helping us get out of RVS, either you know.

And here he isn't doing anything but dragging down another player for no reason I can see while not contributing himself.

How does that help town in anyway?

I don't like this when he, again, is not doing anything himself. How can town suspect someone for not helping town when they're doing even less themselves?

As you can see here that agar brought this to light:

No analysis or even explanation for the Agar quote.

I know he replaced out of all of his games, not just this one, but I'm still curious; Were these his first games on site? So Budja comes in.

Erratus is stirring up reactions. He is guilty of some of the accusations thrown at him (eg. wagonhopping, exaggeration) but at this stage they are more town than scumtells.

I want more detail on which accusations are and are not valid and why they are towntells.

[Ythan]

Notice how Exilon calls Ythan scum but votes me. This makes perfect sense.

No, wait. It makes the exact opposite of that.

Was this serious?

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.

Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.

Okay, then explain how NE is using false logic to say that penpen's post has no content.

I don't like that you specifically cast this as being about the lack of content. That was half of the post. The other half was obvious bad logic.

[theplague42]

Seriously dude, chill out. This is a game, not a life or death situation.

HE JUST ADMITTED MY ARGUMENTS AGAINST FATSO AND MAEMUKI ARE TOWN ON TOWN

No, I didn't. I said that you're trying to create town-on-town arguments. I never said that you were a part of those arguments. You're trying to get people to attack each other by making it seem like everyone is suspicious.

No, actually these aren't anyone's opinions. These are facts. I FoS'd twice. That is a FACT. It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

Yes, that is a fact. But whether or not it's spamming is a matter of opinion. You're confusing facts with opinions. Did I ever say that you used more than two FoS's? I don't believe I did.

I said I wanted to start a bandwagon. Wanted. Did I actually start one? I guess if you count Maemuki's random vote as a wagon, but really, no, I didn't start a wagon. Regardless, the problem with your attack on me isn't that you voted me for wanting to start a wagon, it's that you did so while ignoring the people who actually were wagoning.

It doesn't matter whether you did or not. Intent is everything. The reason I chose you out of the wagoners is that you were trying desperately to get a wagon. The only other thing resembling a wagon was the one on you, which developed

after

you tried to get a wagon going at the bottom of page 1.

Yeah, cause your average innocent person understands the complex legal system perfectly.

Oh wait, no they don't! Your comparison is fucking stupid, bro. What the hell does anything I said have to do with calling a lawyer anyways?

It's really not that complex. A guilty person wants to defend themself, an innocent person shouldn't have to. Yes, an innocent person will have to defend themself somewhat, but not in the way you are.

He is guilty of some of the accusations thrown at him (eg. wagonhopping, exaggeration) but at this stage they are more town than scumtells.

Elaborate, please.

[ICEninja]

*bump* if the other game is still running, I prefer it not to be mentioned in this thread, thx

My bad. Won't happen again.

Ice: Do you feel my vote on Erratus is unjustified?

It could be worse, but I disagree with it. I suppose it isn't unjustified, however.

I WASN'T VOTING FOR EXILON PRIMARILY BECAUSE HE VOTED FOR ME. THEREFORE IT ISN'T OMGUS. YOU LOSE.

Exactly what I felt the situation was.

I SWEAR TO GOD, AGAR. THAT. IS. NOT. FUCKING. OMGUS. EITHER.

This is over the top though. I don't see why town would get so worked up over this. Perhaps I was too hasty to hand out a town read.

I like Ythan's points against the penpen slot, and he gets further town points for having a MM avatar.

The reason I chose you out of the wagoners is that you were trying desperately to get a wagon. The only other thing resembling a wagon was the one on you, which developed after you tried to get a wagon going at the bottom of page 1.

Forming a wagon in the first couple pages is a scum tell? Can you point out where you saw desperation?

[Erratus Apathos]

Notice how Exilon calls Ythan scum but votes me. This makes perfect sense.

No, wait. It makes the exact opposite of that.

Was this serious?

Yes. I'll concede it was a fair bit exaggerated, but then I don't like dicking around with the RVS.

Seriously dude, chill out.

no thanks, I prefer this state of mind to my normal apathetic self

HE JUST ADMITTED MY ARGUMENTS AGAINST FATSO AND MAEMUKI ARE TOWN ON TOWN

No, I didn't. I said that you're trying to create town-on-town arguments. I never said that you were a part of those arguments. You're trying to get people to attack each other by making it seem like everyone is suspicious.

And where are these town-on-town arguments I supposedly created? Or even arguments that are

potentially

town-on-town? If you quote even one, I will vote myself. Otherwise, you are full of shit.

No, actually these aren't anyone's opinions. These are facts. I FoS'd twice. That is a FACT. It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

Yes, that is a fact. But whether or not it's spamming is a matter of opinion.

WROOOOOOOOOOOONG.

It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT. TRY AGAIN

See that? That's quote-spamming. Or the post where I spammed "I'm town!" I'm saying the same exact thing, way more than is necessary, to the point where it can be considered annoying. Those things are spamming. Two FoS's is not spamming. Period. You lose, scum.

I said I wanted to start a bandwagon. Wanted. Did I actually start one? I guess if you count Maemuki's random vote as a wagon, but really, no, I didn't start a wagon. Regardless, the problem with your attack on me isn't that you voted me for wanting to start a wagon, it's that you did so while ignoring the people who actually were wagoning.

It doesn't matter whether you did or not. Intent is everything. The reason I chose you out of the wagoners is that you were trying desperately to get a wagon.

Show where I was "desperate" then. I dare you.

And then while you're at it, show how the hell it's even scummy to wagon early. It isn't, but give it a try anyways.

Yeah, cause your average innocent person understands the complex legal system perfectly.

Oh wait, no they don't! Your comparison is fucking stupid, bro. What the hell does anything I said have to do with calling a lawyer anyways?

It's really not that complex. A guilty person wants to defend themself, an innocent person shouldn't have to. Yes, an innocent person will have to defend themself somewhat, but not in the way you are.

Oh look, here comes the "defending yourself is scummy" horse shit!

THE

PLAGUE

IS

SCUM

This is over the top though. I don't see why town would get so worked up over this.

'cause I know AGar is a smart guy, and he should really be acting smarter than he is

[ICEninja]

It's really not that complex. A guilty person wants to defend themself, an innocent person shouldn't have to. Yes, an innocent person will have to defend themself somewhat, but not in the way you are.

I'm gonna have to agree with Erratus here. It is scummy to defend yourself? What about when scum or misguided townie makes a legitimate looking case against townie? Can you honestly say you've NEVER been lynched as town?

See that? That's quote-spamming. Or the post where I spammed "I'm town!" I'm saying the same exact thing, way more than is necessary, to the point where it

can be considered

is horribly obnoxious and

annoying.

Slightly altered for truth. Enough already.