Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[Fatso]

I'm ridiculously busy right now, so I might be inactive for a few days. 3 at most, but maybe less.

[lewarcher82]

@mod
I'm really sorry about this, but I want to be replaced. I'll stay in until I find one myself, but I can't keep playing with someone who uses personal attacks and swearing to try to make his point.

Erratus, you're still mixing opinions with facts and misinterpreting my case.
1. It's my personal opinion that FoS's are a scumtell. It's not a fact.
2. Budja's logic for defending you is ridiculous. He says that you're doing scummy things, but for some reason claims that it's a towntell.
3. It was your intent to start an early bandwagon, even though it failed.
4. The desperation was that you completely OMGUS'ed someone, then claimed that you weren't. This was even pointed out by AGar IIRC. I view it as a scumtell because you wanted to avoid accusations of OMGUS in the RVS. OMGUS isn't even a scumtell in RVS, yet you really seemed to want to avoid being accused of it.

I read Erratus's ISO and, though he isn't Shakespeare, I don't see anything that qualifies as "personal attack". I ask him to moderate his tone. This is all I can and want to do.

Regarding you, you either decide to keep playing or you replace out. Inform me in your next post about your decision. If you want to replace out, I will look for a replacement using the standard channels, you don't need to find one yourself.

I'm ridiculously busy right now, so I might be inactive for a few days. 3 at most, but maybe less.

Then I consider you to be V/LA for 72 hours.

[theplague42]

I still want to be replaced, but I had already put a request in the replacement queue. Still, I disagree that he hasn't attacked personally. Sorry again.

[mozamis]

so has that guy gone then? if he has, why is he still posting?

[Necessary Evil]

scum are more likely to fail to random vote and fail to give a reason for not random voting. This read depends on his playstyle. What is wrong with this logic?

I doubt that it's true and there is no evidence to persuade me. It is admittedly unreliable if it admittedly depends on style. That's two answers.

I can't really argue with your first point. If you disagree, you disagree. I disagree with the second point, though. I think some scumtells depend on playstyle, and not random voting and not explaining it looked to me like an attempt to avoid attention, which he did later. Basically, the whole thing is about risk avoidance. He could have been worried that random voting could give something away, and trying to manufacture anther reason for not random voting would attract attention. Even genuine reasons do that. Based on that initial post, I was looking to see if he would continue to try to avoid attention.

The false-logic isn't that the post has no content. The false-logic is "usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason" and using that as backing for a vote.

You still haven't explained what is wrong with my reasoning, and you haven't addressed my later clarification post on the subject, so I'll clarify it again: scum are more likely to fail to random vote and fail to give a reason for not random voting.

What's wrong with your reasoning?

It's fucking moonbeams, that's what.

Oh, well, that explains it.

Not too sure on Budja at the moment. I'll keep an eye on him, but I'm moving on for now. UNVOTE: Budja

As others have already posted, there are probably scum on EA's wagon. I'll have to reread and see who I think the scum are.

[Erratus Apathos]

This is what people mean when they say you're arguing about semantics. Look how tenaciously you are interpreting the "yes" portion of the sentence, even though you've been told the intention behind the sentence several times, which would eliminate the need to do that.

Well, yeah, I am arguing semantics now, because now it's relevant. You asked me how I interpreted your post as you calling Ythan scum, I can't really show that without delving into semantics.

Firstly, as long as the question isn't rethorical (And even if it was, it couldn't be considered anything else than a joke), there is implied doubt, no matter how it is structured. Second, if I'm asking confirmation on the fact he's scum, then, as said, it means there is DOUBT, effectively making it a question.

I wasn't saying you had no doubt Ythan is scum, nor that it wasn't a question. But, it's like, if you call up the grocery store and say "You're open right now, yes?" it suggests you believe they're open, but aren't certain. That's how I interpreted your post.

That aside, the POINT is you're taking something seriously that you shouldn't.

You voted me because you believed I was calling ythan scum, yet voted you. Yet you totally failed to reason there was no possible way for me to call him scum (because there was nothing at the time), which destroys that reasoning.

(And in that case, we're (I'm) left with only one other option that remotely justifies your counter-vote: OMGUS. Do you see now where it comes from? You might say you didn't justify your vote like that, but scum usually mask their reasons, so it's not totally unreasonable to think that way.)

I take everything seriously, even the RVS. That said I see your reasoning for thinking my vote was OMGUS.

See? There you go again. Don't impose yourself like that. "it is normal for townies to have two fso's out" IS, no matter how you put it, an opinion. Why? Look at your adjective: "normal". There is no OBJECTIVE way to define the word normal. Even further, saying something is "normal" comes from your perspective and your perspective only. In your experience, that might happen a lot, but for example, in my case, I rarely see FOS's.

Yeah, if you have some weird-ass definition of "normal" maybe. The FACT is that I often FoS early. The word "normal" is indeed subjective, but it isn't subjective enough that it's reasonable to say that early FoSes aren't "normal", given that fact.

Just because you think it's normal for a townie to have two FoSes out, doesn't make it the de facto normal. I never FoS personally. I think they're a waste of time. You're overreacting to that. Someone thought it was scummy you did it. You can't say "No, that's not a fact. This is a fact!" It's is not a "fact" that it is normal for townies to have two FoSes out. Get the fuck over it.

Did I say it was

the

de facto normal? No, I didn't. It is normal for one person to have two FoSes out, and it is normal for someone else to have zero FoSes out. This is not contradictory.

@Ythan - I wasn't saying that he didn't know what OMGUS was. I was saying he was twisting the definition of it to the literal form

Let me get this straight. I'm "twisting" the definition of OMGUS to

the literal definition of OMGUS

? Jesus, there aren't enough s in the fucking world.

He basically said the minute you give any kind of reasoning, even shit reasoning, it's not OMGUS, ignoring the fact that half the time people put a reason onto an "OMGUS" vote that's weak and illogical just to avoid the accusation of OMGUS.

Yeah, and some people post a lot just to avoid the accusation of lurking, but you still look like a moron if you call them lurkers.

I'm really sorry about this, but I want to be replaced. I'll stay in until I find one myself, but I can't keep playing with someone who uses personal attacks and swearing to try to make his point.

I honestly don't see any personal attacks, but I'm sorry anyways.

It's my personal opinion that FoS's are a scumtell. It's not a fact.

Your opinion is one hundred percent baseless.

The desperation was that you completely OMGUS'ed someone, then claimed that you weren't. This was even pointed out by AGar IIRC. I view it as a scumtell because you wanted to avoid accusations of OMGUS in the RVS. OMGUS isn't even a scumtell in RVS, yet you really seemed to want to avoid being accused of it.

I didn't OMGUS anyone. I've already proven this enough times, I'm done proving it. And I do want to avoid being accused of it, scumtell or not, because it implies that I have no reason for my votes,

and I do have reasons for my votes.

[Ythan]

@Ythan - I wasn't saying that he didn't know what OMGUS was. I was saying he was twisting the definition of it to the literal form to prove he wasn't casting an OMGUS vote. He basically said the minute you give any kind of reasoning, even shit reasoning, it's not OMGUS, ignoring the fact that half the time people put a reason onto an "OMGUS" vote that's weak and illogical just to avoid the accusation of OMGUS.

And you can call any reasoning on a vote weak and illogical to cast it as omgus, but if you don't explain why it's weak and illogical I'm going to take issue with it.

@mod
I'm really sorry about this, but I want to be replaced. I'll stay in until I find one myself, but I can't keep playing with someone who uses personal attacks and swearing to try to make his point.

You better explain away the points against you now, because if you're replacement can't he's going to have a much harder time climbing out of the whole you've dug him.

[theplague42]

Then I'll try to do that.

1. It's my opinion that it was overusing FoS's, not a fact. That Erratus used two was a fact. My interpretation is an opinion.
2. Whether or not the wagon succeeded doesn't matter. He intended to, and that is scummy.
3. I'll concede the town-on-town arguments point. That's what scum do, but there's no evidence that Erratus (or anyone for that matter) has tried to create arguments between people
4. The spamming and general unpleasantness I don't like. It's not directly scummy, but it's suspicious how he reacted after I voted him.

[Ythan]

I can see no good reason to accuse him of spamming them. I don't see it as a genuine interpretation, but as something scrounged together.

[Budja]

No net for 36 hrs or so.

[Ythan]

Budja, you're killin me.

[RedCoyote]

Why is everyone bailing? Ythan isn't

that

bad.

[Exilon]

Ythan is actually being VERY productive. I like.

I wasn't saying you had no doubt Ythan is scum, nor that it wasn't a question. But, it's like, if you call up the grocery store and say "You're open right now, yes?" it suggests you believe they're open, but aren't certain. That's how I interpreted your post.

If that's how you interpreted my post, which is basically how it was supposed to be interpreted, then there's no rational way your accusation back then works. You pretty much said I was contradicting myself because I had called Ythan scum yet voted you, but from this post, you know that I wasn't certain. This doesn't make much sense.

Yeah, if you have some weird-ass definition of "normal" maybe. The FACT is that I often FoS early. The word "normal" is indeed subjective, but it isn't subjective enough that it's reasonable to say that early FoSes aren't "normal", given that fact.

It is completely different when you say "I often FoS early and like this" and "It is normal for one person to have two fos's out early". the first implies meta and is indeed a fact, the second implies you're talking generally and usually see a great number of people doing as you do. E.g. 60% of your games have people who FoS early and therefore it becomes "normal" for you; in my games 5% do and therefore my idea of normality is different from yours. It's pretty much subjective.

We need more posts from Budja, Mae, Moz and other lurkers.

[lewarcher82]

happy birthday Fatso

Since there were no significant changes, votecounts will come later or tomorrow

[Maemuki]

We need more posts from Budja, Mae, Moz and other lurkers.

Awesome timing, I was just about to post.

To unvote Budja or not to unvote...I mean, it's not like he'll be here for the next hours, but I guess it won't hurt. After all, I'm not getting a single town vibe from him.

EA's meta defense makes me cringe. Then again, who am I to talk. Aside from that (well, and maybe spam) I really can't see the case on him. Plague, why is having 2 FoS's scummy? My interpretation is that it's shorthand for: "Hey I'd like to see [person voted] lynched, but I wouldn't mind having [person FoS 1] and [person FoS 2] hanged either." Enlighten me, please. I really can't see how one person can cause town-on-town arguments...unless EA's town.

I was just skimming the thread and I find Plague's reaction to EA's question and Exilon's opinion on the question extremely interesting. You could have replaced that with: "What he said + half-hearted justification" and nobody would ever notice.

Aside from this, I really can't say anything else without parroting someone. I'd just like for Plague to answer me before he replaces out.

[mozamis]

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.

Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.

penpen's post is the most suspicious thing in the game so far. I don't think townies will often fail to random vote without giving some kind of reason. It does depend on how he plays, but I'm not familiar with the player so I'm taking initiative.

how on earth was that suspicious by penpen? postinbg that you think sonething is funny? umm..this IS A GAME! I find it scummy that you are trying to rake up suspicions for no reason.

[mozamis]

What is this pile of spam?

VOTE: Erratus

So Ythan, you're scum this time, yes?

Notice how Exilon calls Ythan scum but votes me. This makes perfect sense.

No, wait. It makes the exact opposite of that.

UNVOTE: penpen
VOTE: Exilon

Yes, this is obviously OMGUS.
But i fail to see why evryone is getting so worked up by EA. Yes, he is obviously trying to cover up his OMGus vote by BS argumunets, but probably just cos he knows he made a mistake.
So neutral on EA so far.

[mozamis]

Sup. I'm a miller. Looked everywhere, and it seems that it's best for me to claim right away.

So you know.

vote AGar

for no reason at all

Am ignoring this. Could be scum trying to mess with us. Could be true.

[mozamis]

Dammit, and here I was hoping that I would get to vote Exilon for living in the end of the world, but then this happens. Besides, all this WIFOM is making me drunk.

Actually screw it, I'll do it anyway. I know I should know how to make miller claims into actual discussion, but that's waaaaay beyond my abilities.

VOTE: Exilon

This vote seem completely unprovoked.
Slight scum read.

[mozamis]

There is no dissection of miller claims. You simply take that with a grain of salt, judge them like a normal player (if they're scummy, you lynch them. If they're townie, you don't) and if they're still alive a phase prior to MYLO/LYLO, you lynch them on policy to keep from WIFOM headaches in LYLO.

well if people want to talk about his miller claim, then we are free to do so. Why are you so dismissive of what seems quite an imporatant post?

[mozamis]

So why Do you think Exilon is scum?

For an absolutely RVS-y reason. You didn't really think that I actually thought that he was scum because he lived in Portugal, now did you?

apologies. should have skimmed ahead.

[mozamis]

Well You're not exactly helping us get out of RVS, either you know.

And neither are you. Wait, no, scratch that.
UNVOTE: Exilon
VOTE: penpen

OMGUS vote. scummy?

[mozamis]

ok, three pages in. so far Maemuki is only dodgy poster to me.

UNVOTE VOTE MAEMUKI

[mozamis]

Okay, maybe I did exaggerate a little. But honestly, it's way too early in the game to have a town read.

...and besides, I wasn't asking YOU. Why did you answer in ICE's place?

It's never too early to have a town read. I have town reads on ICE and NE.

I didn't answer your question, I commented on it.

p-edit: yeah my answers to ICE's questions are vague. I don't post on a schedule, deal with it.

why do you have town reads on ice and NE? what have i missed?

[mozamis]

I like the way NE took initiative.

thanks