Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[mozamis]

I like the way NE took initiative.

who cares about initiative when its bullshit.

this seems a bit scummy from penpen/ bit too "defensively aggressive" if you know what i mean. Its good for town to take initiative. We need a lynch.

[mozamis]

The repeated "I'm town!" statement is alignment neutral annoying/amusing, depending on what mood I'm in. Voting based off the most logical reasoning possible in order to get real discussion going helps town. Ergo, pro-town. Ergo, town read. The first 2 votes that Erratus made were done so with much better reasoning than all those silly random votes.

I don't feel like AGar is particularly scummy right now, however. He seemed to genuinely feel that Erratus was the scummiest player at the time of his vote, which would make his vote similarly pro-town. I also generally don't like to have votes up until I have a serious vote.

Unvote

.

I feel like penpen's posts are empty and unhelpful.
Ythan asks good questions.
Coyote needs to post.
Exilion is definitely the active player who has contributed the least.
Maemuki, I didn't engage in RQS. I ask these questions every game, and I have presented reasoning as to why I asked each question. There is absolutely nothing random about them what-so-ever.

AGREE 100 PER CENT. Maybe a bit too lenient towards Agar tho. His posts seem to consist of trying to be "the experienced pro who laughs at other people.".
That could judt be his meta tho.

[mozamis]

although exilon is keen to defend EA. Scumtell or just trying to be objective? Too early to tell.

[mozamis]

more analysis later. I know you guys can't wait

[AGar]

@Ythan - I wasn't saying that he didn't know what OMGUS was. I was saying he was twisting the definition of it to the literal form to prove he wasn't casting an OMGUS vote. He basically said the minute you give any kind of reasoning, even shit reasoning, it's not OMGUS, ignoring the fact that half the time people put a reason onto an "OMGUS" vote that's weak and illogical just to avoid the accusation of OMGUS.

And you can call any reasoning on a vote weak and illogical to cast it as omgus, but if you don't explain why it's weak and illogical I'm going to take issue with it.

What is this pile of spam?

VOTE: Erratus

So Ythan, you're scum this time, yes?

Notice how Exilon calls Ythan scum but votes me. This makes perfect sense.

No, wait. It makes the exact opposite of that.

UNVOTE: penpen
VOTE: Exilon

Tell me how anything in this is more than just filler to cover an OMGUS vote. The problem isn't here, however. OMGUS is OMGUS. You and I both know that OMGUS isn't generally a tell at all.

Here's the problem:

OMGUS

I'm not voting you because you're voting me, I'm voting you for using non-town logic. So it's not OMGUS.

Excellent use of sarcasm in place of an actual defense though, it's a good way to hide the fact that you don't have one.

He defends against the OMGUS accusation like he's being attacked by scum trying to wagon him to his DOOOOOOOOOOOOM and basically says "Nuh-uh, I had a reason, it's not OMGUS!"

There is no dissection of miller claims. You simply take that with a grain of salt, judge them like a normal player (if they're scummy, you lynch them. If they're townie, you don't) and if they're still alive a phase prior to MYLO/LYLO, you lynch them on policy to keep from WIFOM headaches in LYLO.

well if people want to talk about his miller claim, then we are free to do so. Why are you so dismissive of what seems quite an imporatant post?

Because it's not important and discussing it will only lead us in circles of non-productive (dun dun dun) WIFOM which gets us nowhere. You gain nothing from dissecting a miller claim. If you want to lynch him because he's scummy, fine. If you want to keep him around because he's townish, whatever. But discussing and analyzing the miller claim simply distracts town from scumhunting when we need to be most, as D1 generates the most information down the road whether it's successful or not in terms of lynching scum.

[Maemuki]

OMGUS vote. scummy?

Considering that I have a reason, not really.

I like the way NE took initiative.

thanks

...I honestly don't know what to make of this post.

Well, I can't really defend myself if you give no reasons. By the way, can you post everything you want to say in a single post? It's less annoying.

[Exilon]

Some of Mozamis' posts seem like useless fluff, and some others are just confusing. Most of Mozamis posts could/SHOULD be glued together. That would avoid some "oops, nevermind my last post, I just read the explanation", such as #145.

Mozamis comments on the miller claim seem contradictory.

[about the miller claim] Am ignoring this. Could be scum trying to mess with us. Could be true.

If you're going to ignore it, why do you go to the effort of commenting on it and making it completely useless? This post achieves absolutely nothing. And yet:

There is no dissection of miller claims. You simply take that with a grain of salt, judge them like a normal player (if they're scummy, you lynch them. If they're townie, you don't) and if they're still alive a phase prior to MYLO/LYLO, you lynch them on policy to keep from WIFOM headaches in LYLO.

well if people want to talk about his miller claim, then we are free to do so. Why are you so dismissive of

what seems quite an imporatant post?

Really?

#148 has Moz asking EA for justification on his town reads. Doesn't sit too well to me.
#149 is just weird, Moz thanking EA for something he said to NE.

although exilon is keen to defend EA. Scumtell or just trying to be objective? Too early to tell.

What the heck are you talking about? Quotes, please.

Overall, Mozamis posting seems to be a bit of "lurk-avoid" kind of posting.

[Erratus Apathos]

I wasn't saying you had no doubt Ythan is scum, nor that it wasn't a question. But, it's like, if you call up the grocery store and say "You're open right now, yes?" it suggests you believe they're open, but aren't certain. That's how I interpreted your post.

If that's how you interpreted my post, which is basically how it was supposed to be interpreted, then there's no rational way your accusation back then works. You pretty much said I was contradicting myself because I had called Ythan scum yet voted you, but from this post, you know that I wasn't certain. This doesn't make much sense.

Of course I knew you weren't certain, it was page one for cryin' out loud. I don't see how that doesn't make sense though. The whole reason I found it weird was 'cause it was like you were sayin' "I accuse Ythan of being scum. Vote: Erratus". I think that's weird regardless of how certain your accusation is.

Yeah, if you have some weird-ass definition of "normal" maybe. The FACT is that I often FoS early. The word "normal" is indeed subjective, but it isn't subjective enough that it's reasonable to say that early FoSes aren't "normal", given that fact.

It is completely different when you say "I often FoS early and like this" and "It is normal for one person to have two fos's out early". the first implies meta and is indeed a fact, the second implies you're talking generally and usually see a great number of people doing as you do. E.g. 60% of your games have people who FoS early and therefore it becomes "normal" for you; in my games 5% do and therefore my idea of normality is different from yours. It's pretty much subjective.

I was gonna argue this but it made me realize something that renders my whole point invalid. As I said to ICE's questions, my last finished game was over two years ago. The meta has probably shifted since then. In fact, come to think of it, I have seen FoS a lot less often then I did in 08.

Ugh. I hate admitting I'm wrong. Can we skip the part where I admit I was wrong please?

Now I need to take another look at theplague's attack on me in this context

Yes, this is obviously OMGUS.
But i fail to see why evryone is getting so worked up by EA. Yes, he is obviously trying to cover up his OMGus vote by BS argumunets, but probably just cos he knows he made a mistake.
So neutral on EA so far.

I'm not covering up my vote with BS. I realize my argument against Exilon wasn't exactly case of the year material, but I did think it was worth questioning and I don't think it was a mistake to do so. Really, if I just wanted to OMGUS, I'd have called it that.

I am confused as to why you think BS arguments are neutral though. Since when do townies do that?

Tell me how anything in this is more than just filler to cover an OMGUS vote.

Because I thought the "A is scum, yes? Vote: B" thing was weird. I would have thought it was weird if he had instead asked me if I was scum and voted Ythan, or if he had asked Maemuki if she was scum and voted RedCoyote, or whatever. The fact that he happened to vote me has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHY I FOUND IT WEIRD.

He defends against the OMGUS accusation like he's being attacked by scum trying to wagon him to his DOOOOOOOOOOOOM and basically says "Nuh-uh, I had a reason, it's not OMGUS!"

WTF, how did I react like I was getting wagoned to my DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM? I pointed out that I did indeed have a reason, tacked on the rolling eyes smiley, and left a "you have no defense" remark to prod Exilon into explaining his point. (I didn't actually think he wouldn't have a defense, by the way. I just felt like Exilon's response wasn't taking me seriously enough, and that that sort of comment might make him do otherwise.) How does any of that suggest I'm reacting like I was DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMed?

[ICEninja]

Holy cow that's a lot to read.

It's actually OoT.

Oh really? The same face might be in both, then.

Your town read was based on his logic. You drop it based on his tone. Dislike.

When did I say I lost a town read based on tone? Saying that town has no reason to get worked up like this is logic. Or am I wrong? If I am, then attack my supporting points, not my conclusion.

I'm really sorry about this, but I want to be replaced. I'll stay in until I find one myself, but I can't keep playing with someone who uses personal attacks and swearing to try to make his point.

See Erratus? Look what you did. You're scaring the kids away.

I feel like there's too much "black and white" opinions right now. Either people think something along the lines of "this is the way everyone thinks and behaves and this situation always means thing", or "no, each situation is completely different and unrelated". The truth of the matter is that true situations are somewhere in between. Each situation must be judged on its own merits, but similar situations bear connections.

Having 2 FoSs early in the game is not scummy. It simply means 2 people have done suspicious things. That is literally ALL it means. Some people are more vocal about officially giving FoS, others like me simply voice suspicion. It IS a fact that it is normal for 2 people to do suspicious things early in the game, and all this nonsense otherwise is silly.

That being said, I think it is very silly to be stating such things. There should have been no need to defend having 2 FoSs in the first place, because it isn't a scum tell at all.

Alright mozamis, 14 posts in a row is NOT acceptable. Please combine your posts next time.

Yes, this is obviously OMGUS.

Actually, it is obviously not OMGUS. The original person to accuse him of OMGUS (Exilion) has conceded the point that it was NOT OMGUS.

But i fail to see why evryone is getting so worked up by EA. Yes, he is obviously trying to cover up his OMGus vote by BS argumunets, but probably just cos he knows he made a mistake.

This looks like either distancing or laying the seeds to later come back with a scum tell. Slightly scummy.

This vote seem completely unprovoked.
Slight scum read.

That was a random vote. In the RVS. And you're calling it a slight scum read? No good.

well if people want to talk about his miller claim, then we are free to do so. Why are you so dismissive of what seems quite an imporatant post?

You just said this regarding the miller claim:

Am ignoring this. Could be scum trying to mess with us. Could be true.

You're very all over the place, and seem to be trying to paint AGar as scummy for no reason. More scum points.

AGREE 100 PER CENT.

That was regarding me defending Erratus.

although exilon is keen to defend EA. Scumtell or just trying to be objective? Too early to tell.

This was the next post.

Yeah not liking mozamis.

Vote mozamis

.

[ICEninja]

I'm liking AGar less and less, especially with post 154. Erratus really looks in the right to me here.

[lewarcher82]

Space Pope replaces theplague42 effective now. Since theplague42 did not leave til I found the replacement, I am not extending the deadline.

[mozamis]

SORRY FOR THE CAPS BUT I HAVE ASKED IN 3 GAMES NOW FOR SOME ASSISTANCE ON HOW TO USE THIS FORUMS POSTING INTERFACE. NO HELP HAS BEEN FORTHCOMING. THATS WHY I KEEP POSTING SEPERATE POSTS.
How can you qoute someone, respond to it, and then quote someone else in the same post. And how do you do that cool thing with the blue underline where it takes you to the relevant post.
Thanks

and ps the post where i said thanks and was cos i asked a question which Ea had already answred. My bad

Answering you in a PM - the lovely Mod

[mozamis]

although not liking iceninjas "not acceptable" post. you're not the mod. back off.

[mozamis]

and anyway, why dont people like seperat eposts ? i find short, analytical posts much more digestible and informative than long waffly posts.

[Exilon]

There's these nifty commands in the reply window you'd do well to explore before asking for help, specially in a game (you could try the Help! section). You can also click the "quote" button on people's posts to see what codes they have used to achieve all those effects. Quoting is achieved with:

Code: Select all

 [quote="name of player"] message quoted [/quote] 

And the underline is the URL:

Code: Select all

 [URL=link address] Title (what's underlined) [/url] 

To get a link to a specific post, all you have to is click the tiny number above every person's posts and copy the address link.

Short, analytical posts are good but separating two sentences into two posts like you've done a few times now clutters up the thread and doesn't look as clean and fluid, besides not being analytical at all. It's also disorganized.

[mozamis]

yes, i was 100 per cent sure i would get a patronising, cock muncher like response. Christ knows why people cant be more friendly on the internet. I wonder if people think there's link between "forum posting ability" and intellectual apptitude? Only thick people i guess. Now thick people and patronsing people-THERE'S a link. Still, at least you tried to help so thanks for that

[Maemuki]

Because it's annoying. True, short posts are much easier to digest...but the point is kinda ruined if you just keep on posting and posting and POSTING ughhh.

yes, i was 100 per cent sure i would get a patronising, cock muncher like response. Christ knows why people cant be more friendly on the internet. I wonder if people think there's link between "forum posting ability" and intellectual apptitude? Only thick people i guess. Now thick people and patronsing people-THERE'S a link. Still, at least you tried to help so thanks for that

*repeated headdesk* I don't see how Exilon's post was unhelpful and "cock muncher". But then again...

By the way, answer me INSTEAD OF WASTING YOUR TIME COMPLAINING. k thx

[lewarcher82]

*BUMP*

thread is for playing game. I PM'd mozamis instructions. Please game-related posts only from now on. I will be glad to answer anyone's not game-related questions via PM.

[mozamis]

By the way, answer me INSTEAD OF WASTING YOUR TIME COMPLAINING. k thx

what was your question darling?

[Maemuki]

what was your question darling?

Well, looking back it's kinda justified since I didn't exactly word it as a question, but:

Why do you think I'm scum? Nope, dodgy posting without elaboration isn't a valid answer.

[Ythan]

Tell me how anything in this is more than just filler to cover an OMGUS vote. The problem isn't here, however. OMGUS is OMGUS. You and I both know that OMGUS isn't generally a tell at all.

Was looking for you to explain your stance.

He defends against the OMGUS accusation like he's being attacked by scum trying to wagon him to his DOOOOOOOOOOOOM and basically says "Nuh-uh, I had a reason, it's not OMGUS!"

This reads like you attacking him for defensiveness. And he was right about it not being omgus if we take his reasoning as genuine, and I see no reason to assume that it is not. It might not be, but it fits fine for me right now.

[Ythan]

Some of Mozamis' posts seem like useless fluff, and some others are just confusing. Most of Mozamis posts could/SHOULD be glued together. That would avoid some "oops, nevermind my last post, I just read the explanation", such as #145.

Can you specify which are fluff and which are just confusing?

Really?

Miller stance reversal is interesting.

Overall, Mozamis posting seems to be a bit of "lurk-avoid" kind of posting.

This I don't agree with.

[Ythan]

Oh really? The same face might be in both, then.

The character appears in both games but is featured much more prominently in the sequel.

When did I say I lost a town read based on tone? Saying that town has no reason to get worked up like this is logic. Or am I wrong? If I am, then attack my supporting points, not my conclusion.

Okay. The point is patently untrue. Blanket statements about who will and will not get emotional are ridiculous.

I feel like there's too much "black and white" opinions right now. Either people think something along the lines of "this is the way everyone thinks and behaves and this situation always means thing", or "no, each situation is completely different and unrelated". The truth of the matter is that true situations are somewhere in between. Each situation must be judged on its own merits, but similar situations bear connections.

You're the one who said town has no reason to act a certain way.

That being said, I think it is very silly to be stating such things. There should have been no need to defend having 2 FoSs in the first place, because it isn't a scum tell at all.

Then take issue with the player who started it.

[Exilon]

Some of Mozamis' posts seem like useless fluff, and some others are just confusing. Most of Mozamis posts could/SHOULD be glued together. That would avoid some "oops, nevermind my last post, I just read the explanation", such as #145.

Can you specify which are fluff and which are just confusing?

I hope you don't mind me using ISO numbers instead of quotes, for simplicity's sake (And also because I've already mentioned some of these):
Fluff/Useless Posting:
#143 and then #145 cancel each other out;
#142 achieves nothing;
#149, thanks?
#153, also achieves nothing.

Confusing:
#149, thanking a quote from someone else?
#150 doesn't exactly provide a clear point.
#152

was not explained even though I asked for clarification.

Some of Moz's posts also have a bit of "this could be motivated by x but could also be because of y", which doesn't really help.

Really?

Miller stance reversal is interesting.

I don't understand, what do you mean by saying this?

---

I'm sorry, but I need to reply to this.

yes, i was 100 per cent sure i would get a patronising, cock muncher like response. Christ knows why people cant be more friendly on the internet. I wonder if people think there's link between "forum posting ability" and intellectual apptitude? Only thick people i guess. Now thick people and patronsing people-THERE'S a link. Still, at least you tried to help so thanks for that

I answered to everything you asked, yet you seem to be saying I acted like an ass (for the lack of a better word). If not, what's that rambling for?

[Ythan]

Thanks for the references, especially with links. Just looking for clarity and taking specific stances.

The miller reversal thing, I assume you're confused because I trimmed your quote way down. I mean that moz's reversal on whether miller claims should be analyzed is interesting.

And there is a better word for what she called you. It's cock muncher.