Newbie 1072 - Game Over!

[Mute]

@Ghostlin: If the deadline were immediate, I'd say TS, simply because of his actions so far. I don't like how charlie started with the role/reaction fishing, and his ambiguity doesn't sit well with me either. My vote can switch to either or but I'm more comfortable with TS being a D1 lynch.

@All: I'm going to take tomorrow off as my reservation of pokemon white will be released so I'll be busy playing that most of tomorrow. (Yes I still play pokemon. dealwithit.jpg)

[KingTwelveSixteen]

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King Twelvesixteen:

Who says I'm not gonna hammer you? I'm totally about to hammer you. Like, you have one more post to defend yourself before I hammer. The next step is likely for you to fail to defend yourself adequetly and then I hammer you.

I don't like this. We're trying to stop people from quickhammering, you accuse TS of being overzealous of it, and the next breath you say you're willing to do that, and it's mostly because he blew off your arguments. It reads contradictory, which reads scummy, because scum like quickhammers. They don't mind accusing others of what they could be responsible of with a 'well, he was going to do it!' You went from null leaning town to null leaning scum here.

Here's what'd I'd ask of you. Lay out your TS case, point by point. If you have ISO him, do it. Give us analysis of what you find scummy most versus someone of the other townsfolk.
...

I have a gigantic post just a little while back there with me saying what I think TS has done that is scummy. The only thing I didn't include in that huge post and the couple of posts that followed it that was scummy that I can think of would be this:

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I'll cool off for a bit and let you guys catch up, but you guys seriously need to find other alternatives to my self because you're all tunneling right now, and once you've realised this mistake you'll be left with no alternate suspects.
So for the good of the town let's move onto alternatives

Wherin he says that everyone is tunneling him and they should consider alternatives, but doesn't give any counters for arguments or arguments explaining how people are tunneling him or any alternative people should consider.

Though the big thing that made me want to lynch him would be, yes, that he blew off my post that was like 3 pages worth of words and almost entirely against him like it wasn't even there, and instead he strawmaned onto just a part of my argument and "countered" it with an

out-right lie.

He also acted like nobody had asked him any direct questions when my post had a couple questions, both implied and direct. And then there was the thing with him saying I now have a town read from him for not lynching him immediatly.

I guess I shouldn't have been willing to lynch him so quickly without everyone commenting on it, but seriously that was so incredibly scummy.

...

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Ghostlin:

I didn't think that his questions were set out with the purposeful intent of role-fishing when I first saw them

, if anything I think they were badly chosen reaction-bait. I can understand why it might be interpreted as they have been, and I could understand a couple of the votes on him a hell of a lot more if that was the platform those votes were standing on, but they aren't, and I don't interpret a lot of the other stated reasons for voting Charlie right now standing up under scrutiny.

I also don't see anything with pure role-fishing intentions being

done that blatantly.

*Raised eyebrow*
Also, which reasons specifically do you think don't stand up under scrutiny?

Hm, you know you never commented on that contradiction Forseti. It can't be blatant and yet unnoticable.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Ok, I just realised something. The reason I felt fine with lynching TS so quickly when I felt it was scummy for him to want to lynch Charlie so early was that I was thinking of quicklynches being scummy mainly because the person being lynched

couldn't defend themselves,

since they died so quickly, and because a general bit of "not enough stuff has happened in the day yet" sometimes, but there is another reason it is scummy that I didn't really think much about until Forseti pointed it out, that it is scummy because

nobody can comment on the lynch.

That is why I seemed to contradict myself, TS responded to my case with a horribly bad "defense," and there had been enough talking for me to get some good reads in, so at the time I didn't think it would be anti-town or anything to lynch him. Of course now that I know the other reason, and think of it as a good reason (which it is), I will be more careful with my lynches and blah blah moral of the story blah.

[Forseti]

[quote="KingTwelveSixteen]

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Ghostlin:

I didn't think that his questions were set out with the purposeful intent of role-fishing when I first saw them

, if anything I think they were badly chosen reaction-bait. I can understand why it might be interpreted as they have been, and I could understand a couple of the votes on him a hell of a lot more if that was the platform those votes were standing on, but they aren't, and I don't interpret a lot of the other stated reasons for voting Charlie right now standing up under scrutiny.

I also don't see anything with pure role-fishing intentions being

done that blatantly.

*Raised eyebrow*
Also, which reasons specifically do you think don't stand up under scrutiny?

Hm, you know you never commented on that contradiction Forseti. It can't be blatant and yet unnoticable.[/quote]

I did, when I pointed out that questions were, in my opinion, fishing for reactions rather than roles, something I said inside that very quote, and have said multiple times since. I do not consider this a contradiction, I consider it a difference in interpretation between us.

I'm also going to consider that perhaps you misunderstood my phasing in my last line of that quote, because reading it again, I can see how it would be open to being misinterpreted, what I meant to say was that I did not believe that Charlie, based on the play he'd exhibited up to that point, would be as blatant as he actually was if role-fishing was his true intention. A lot of what I've seen to this poiint makes me want to credit him with more nuance to his game than that, which was why I viewed those questions the way I did, as an effort on his part to garner reactions.

Does that clear it up?

[Forseti]

EBWOP: Ugh, quote tag fail, first time I forget to preview to check tags, I mess up the freakin' tags, of course.

First line after the quote should be part of a seperate KingTwelveSixteen quote, the rest is new from me.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
Does that clear it up?

Yes, thank you.

[FarmeriXi]

i am trying to get caught up on all the reading everyone. Busy night in the ER tonight. Maybe i'll have some down time later and can post some thoughts.

[Dazzy]

Hey all,

RL is getting the best of me this weekend, and so I will not be able to post a nice analysis tonight. I will also be unable to post until tomorrow evening, and even then will not have much time to devote to the game.

I would also like to see Charlie post again with the results of his reaction fishing questions, and get some more substance from gxw on his position to further contribute to my reads before fulfilling your request Ghost.

to be explicit:
@ gxw: you've said that you would consider hammering either Charlie or TS. Can we get some substance on this please? Explain your suspicions, as we haven't received much input from you since the initial you/TS debate.

Apologies for the delay, can't be helped atm.

Good night.

@ Mod: Can we get a vote count please? Official = best

P-Edit (That means preview edit right?) : Lol at farmer fulfilling two mafia roles irl - Mason and Doc. Nice.

[FarmeriXi]

Ok, quick note after what I've realized.

It seems I am in the position to lay the hammer, atm, with everyone so decidely placing and leaving their votes. I will need to do a bit more reading and sifting through my notes to determine if a hammer would be viable or not. In the mean time, I will leave my vote on King as I have pointed out I feel a hint of scumminess there.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
In the mean time, I will leave my vote on King as I have pointed out I feel a hint of scumminess there.

I gave counters for that stuff you know.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry guys, I was out of town for the weekend and forgot to post the V/LA.

Vote Count 1.5

Twistedspoon - 4 (gxw, Charlie, Forseti, Mute)

Charlie - 2 (Ghostlin, Twistedspoon)
KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (FarmeriXi)

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy, KingTwelveSixteen)

5 to Lynch.

Click for Deadline

[FarmeriXi]

Ok, so after thoroughly reading through all the posts I have skimmed over the last two nights I have come to some conclusions.
1) Some people are trying to beat the worlds longest post record.
2) I still cannot comment whole heartedly on the Charlie/TS voting stages.
I do understand much of the depating regarding the talk of contradictions and overall scumminess of some of Charlie and TS's posts. However, I stand my ground in saying I do not fully feel that either of the two are highly regarded as scum as of yet IMO. I think, due to some radical moves, both of these players have stood out enough and found themselves in holes that were easy for others (the mafia to wagon).

* Work calls...these thoughts will be continued asap *

[FarmeriXi]

EbWOP: depating = debating

[FarmeriXi]

...
In the mean time, I will leave my vote on King as I have pointed out I feel a hint of scumminess there.

I gave counters for that stuff you know.

Yes you did give counters, but I do not feel that explaination fully warrants in this game. With your explanation I would be hesitant in voting (esp on a wagon) at all early on in a game. Thus why I am watching how I vote atm. Again, idk exactly why you stood out to me as you did.

...
What does everyone else think, not only of Charlie/TS, but in general? Moar opinions please

Charlie's seeming contradictions that have been brought up make him look scummy, gonna wait for his response to see if I'll switch to him. gxw doesn't seem that scummy after he explained everything, so

Unvote

until I find someone else to vote for (probably Charlie.)
[/quoe]
It just seemed as though this post point said "hey, there is a wagon forming on a townie, so I will jump on it. Ohh, but not too soon, i don't want to look scummy, but i'll at least point out I may vote Charlie unless something better comes along"

Also, same post

FarmeriXi self-voted first post, though he did unvote in the same post, I have seen scum do that in a game and he got killed for it so apparently scum do that sometimes for some reason. He also acted all wierd and nonsensical, and has yet to post a serious type post with serious type reads, so I give neutral-scum read to him. So yeah, talk some more FarmeriXi.

Was it not obvious I was being silly? I was questioned a couple times, but is silliness that early in the game a point to us in calling someone scum? Seems like that was a statement to form reactions around me and lead to a possible wagon if I didn't pick up and post as often as you like. Why? maybe because if I don't post much, I wouldn't catch the wagon in time to defend from a lynching.

RL*More work calls in the ER, to be continued....*

[Dazzy]

*sigh* What a long freaking day...

This post will contain my fairly basic summary of my thoughts so far, I really don't have the energy to make an intensely detailed post, and frankly I don't feel like

much

very interesting stuff has happened in the past day or so. Still some though.

Charlie: Still far too ambiguous for my liking. His inactivity, though explained, in inconvenient in that there are still several outstanding questions that poeple have yet to receive answers for. He has told us he had a plan which worked in his eyes, but nothing more, which makes me either believe it was a weak cover for his mistakes, or he just doesn't feel like telling us. Neither leave me with a favourable impression. Null-scum read. His meh answers have relieved my suspicion enough that I'm comfortable with not voting on him as of now, atleast until we get more of an explanation.

Dazzy: Noob. Don't like him...

Farmer: Not a lot to go on in my view. A small point of contention I have with him is his vote on King, which was based on what I saw as a misunderstanding of the vote status. He also said that King was "clearly scum" in his ISO #3, and then in #6 downgrades that to "a hint of scuminess".

Very

weak scum read.

Forseti: A very enthusiastic defender of Charlie. What this means as of yet, I'm not one hundred percent sure, but I get the impression he really was just trying to stop what he thought was a mis-lynch. On that note, Forseti, If Charlie flips scum, I'll have my eye one you! . Null-town read so far.

Ghost*: A lot of theory/game-advice, but when he posts content its solid stuff. The help is appreciated. Good questions which have promoted discussion, and just an overall town-null read.

GXW: Huh. Not any content to speak of since his incident with TS except hammer-threats. I don't like this behaviour, as he has not contributed anything to the discussion but his willingness to end day one in a very quick fashion, and calls for claims. Null-scum read.

King: He seems to play very emotionally, which also somewhat explains some of the points made against him about his willingness to lynch TS. Nothing really stands out, so I'm just gonna say null read atm.

Mute*: Fairly quiet, with longer posts containing reasonable points. Null-town read.

Twisted: Oh dear.

Twisted started this game with what I saw as scummy behaviour, prompting my vote on him. Since then he has become ever more erratic, making it very difficult to pin down his motivations. His entire Forseti crusade, which could have actually been a more interesting topic, lost 85% of its meaning after the third post or so.

I hope this isn't out of line, but besides adding a bit more scumminess to what is below, it's basically my impression of him.

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VI:

Village Idiot, a player that plays poorly or does stupid things during a game. These players are dangerous because often times scum can affect this and town will mislynch them, or if they don't, they hang around later and are dangerous in endgame.
...

Scum-null read.

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* This basically is me reminding myself and everyone else that these two are the SE's, meaning they both have more experience than me and several others. In light of this, they could very well be scum disguising themselves quite effectively. We would all do well to keep a particularly close eye on them in the coming days.

I feel like entirely too much effort was spent on TS's "case" on Forseti. This may be my subconscious talking, but I found it strange just how much emphasis was put on it, both by TS and King (who quoted all mentionings of it despite TS's admission that he was wrong. My gut/intuition says it was simply an angry "In your face" post, but I could be wrong). Does it mean anything necessarily? Not really. Like I said, probably me over-reacting to seing my name so many times lol.

Before I leave, I'd just like to summarise some of my unanswered questions for convenience's sake:

@ Charlie: Can we please have the results of your supposedly successful reaction-fishing? Seems a little scummy keeping (possibly fabricated ) information such as that from us.

Also (kinda new, wasn't explicitly asked before): The most solid point you presented against TS in your initial vote post was a disagreement on scumtells. Why is a difference in opinion a reason to vote?

@ gxw: Substantiate yourself damnit. Your active lurking/hammer-threats are not helpful in the slightest.

@ Farmer: Can you explain your change in language severity please?


That's all folks. I'm gonna make it official so that I won't distract myself by feeling obligated to post when I should be studying like crazy tomorrow. I have a very important test on Tuesday night so:

@ Mod, I will be V/LA until Tuesday night.

Hopefully in that time some of the group's outstanding questions will be answered. Sorry guys.

I will talk to you all then. Cheers.

[Twistedspoon]

VI? that's just mean; I merely tested out a new way of presenting my suspicions in a newbie game.
You'll see when the game ends and my suspects flip scum...

[KingTwelveSixteen]

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In the mean time, I will leave my vote on King as I have pointed out I feel a hint of scumminess there.

I gave counters for that stuff you know.

Yes you did give counters, but I do not feel that explaination fully warrants in this game. With your explanation I would be hesitant in voting (esp on a wagon) at all early on in a game. Thus why I am watching how I vote atm. Again, idk exactly why you stood out to me as you did.

1. Uh, "explaination fully warrants in this game"? Warrants what?
2. Which explanation? The one in the post where I say I am about to vote or my explanation of that post?
3. Voting on wagons for pressure happens all the time early day 1.
4. So its just gut then.

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...

Guh, quoting mistake makes this post really confusing. I can't tell if you added anything new in the middle or something...

Was it not obvious I was being silly? I was questioned a couple times, but is silliness that early in the game a point to us in calling someone scum? Seems like that was a statement to form reactions around me and lead to a possible wagon if I didn't pick up and post as often as you like. Why? maybe because if I don't post much, I wouldn't catch the wagon in time to defend from a lynching.

RL*More work calls in the ER, to be continued....*

a1. If you are talking about your first post, then yes it was obvious.
a2. I also had the self-voting as a reason, and I gave you a neutral-scum read.
a3. The more reactions people have about other people the better for town since they help with making cases so much, especially after someone flips.
a4. "I wouldn't catch the wagon in time to defend from a lynching"

...
I was thinking of quicklynches being scummy mainly because the person being lynched

couldn't defend themselves,

since they died so quickly
...

Also: see point against TS about scum not quicklynching.

[Charlie]

Posting from mobile. I see heavy activity and TS at L-1. His panicky reaction is more indicative of newbtown rather than scum. I'll look up some meta (metagaming, check wiki)

Gxm's post 100 is scummy
UNVOTE: TS
VOTE: Gxm

More later.

[Charlie]

Oh hi you're online.

[gxw]

Wow, you guys really need to calm down with these big posts. I'm very sorry about not posting since saturday, but I had a VERY busy weekend. And now I have school. So, again, this is anti-prod and I'm sorry. I may be able to post something tonight, and if not tonight, definitely tomorrow morning around this time.

[Twistedspoon]

UNVOTE: Charlie
I don't know anything anymore

I didn't even know I had a meta

post #100 seems only slightly scummy. Not as scummy as hammering would have been for gxw, so I see no reason to hold it against him.
He chose the lesser of two scummy acts.

I'll just say that this game is completely different to my last newbie game, as farmer would know, and maybe that's what has confused me.
I'm sorry, will cool down and get back on track now.

but seriously, I actually wasn't trying to buddy to king. It's merely a theory of mine that he'd have hammered me if scum, since I'm the only confirmed townie I know.
Mafia might have been on my wagon, might not.

It's a tricky puzzle this game and I'm going to have to get into serious game mode to prove I'm not VI. That's my challenge.

[Mute]

-typical "I'm still here" post-
Haven't read a thing after my post on top of page 6, will try to do so today. Been enjoying my new game a bit more than I thought.

[Ghostlin]

Some of town has answered my questions and given me the information I've asked for and contributed talking points. Thank you.

The rest of you know who you are. Also, GXW: I reread Post 100. Were you acutally that close to hammering at that point?

[Charlie]

I've noticed something odd about FarmeriXi's posts, I'll be keeping an eye on him though I'm not yet sure what yet. Now I'll address things in reverse chronological order.

@Twistedspoon: I've noted that you played in 1 other newbie game: Newbie 1050
I've looked at it. Seems pretty okay, as far as Town Doc plays so you're not VI in my book. Question is, how come you're not as cool as a cucumber when facing a threat of (mis?)lynch on D1? Do you think your play there and here are equal?

@ Charlie: Can we please have the results of your supposedly successful reaction-fishing? Seems a little scummy keeping (possibly fabricated) information such as that from us.

Whoever hits any component of the trifecta gets Town-points in my book. Townie brownies for a full house/complete trifecta.

I would also like to see Charlie post again with the results of his reaction fishing questions, and get some more substance from gxw on his position to further contribute to my reads before fulfilling your request Ghost.

That post #100 reeks of scum because it is blatant role-fishing with a threat of hammering any of the two (supposedly) players @ LyLo. Think about it, who benefits most from getting claims out of players? The Mafia does. And its not to say that gxw has been uber active... I feel that compared to others, his content is fluff. Indicative of Mafia trying to lie low?

My read on Charlie, as it stands, is leaning town, and most of that has little to actually do with his own play as it is the way that people have reacted to him and tried to push the wagon on him over the line. As such, it's a read that's subject to change, but it would need a stronger case than currently has been put forth.

My read on you is null.

Charlie:

Were you aware that the question you asked might be taken as rolefishing? If so, why did you ask it? You've not given me a lot to say you're a victim of misunderstanding.

When I posted that question, I wasn't aware that it may have been taken as role-fishing. To me it was just another random question in RQS that will get discussion going. It did, and in a way that far exceeded my expectations (same answer as before). I just spew whatever I have on my mind and its up to you to judge weather or not that is scummy.

Well now I REALLY want to hammer TS, but I just realized that I already have a vote on him :/ That's pretty much all i have to say...

Why?
Note: *gxw's response is important, please nobody else answer for him*

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Added a "Helpful Links" section to the bottom of the Game Rules post. I used to have this in my word doc but it got deleted apparently.

~Vel