There Will Be Bloodshed (Game Over)

[nhammen]

VOTE: ConfidAnon

For killing me in NY 118.

Also, I have a test tomorrow and on Thursday, so don't expect anything from me until then. Of course, after this is spring break, so I can be very active then.

[nhammen]

And I am done with my tests. Catching up now.

Oh, and I take back what I said before. I'm not going to post the reasons (they're quite insane), but I'll give you my conclusions.

{C-Worl, Cookie, Friend, winger} contains at least one--probably two--scum.

Empking is town.
AGar is town.
ConfidAnon is leaning-town.
Parama is probably town.
DLG is town.
Pine is neutral. I want him to be town, because if he is, then awesomeness will follow.

-Mastin.

VOTE: ConfidAnon
For killing me in NY 118.

Vote: evilpacman18

He's clearly evil. It's in his name.

Oh man. I've never heard that one before.

Is that all you two have to say?!?

Apparently it was. Although that was mainly because I was in a rush at the time of my post. (And I was excited to finally get to random vote someone for killing me in a previous game). Personally, I'm a little leery of the way you said that those reads were insane, because if they are insane, why post them? But I also jumped on another player that did the same thing in another recent game. I don't remember how it turned out, which probably means he was town. Honestly, I can't read the RVS until half the players have flipped, so I don't see how you had any confidence in those reads on page 1.

OOH, RQS:

Whose hitting "show" on the mastwalls?

I'm hitting show, but skimming them... I can't bring myself to read that kind of thing.

Vote: Pine

He's scum

I don't like this post.

It smells funny.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jerbs

I can agree with that; although I personally would have asked a question about why Jerbs thinks that he is scum along with the vote. So, Jerbs, why do you think that Pine is scum?

Oh hey, the game started.

Vote: Pine

His rambling is giving me scummy vibes.

Grey voting NL is a nulltell, btw.

~Pie

A) Is that all you have to say about the game so far?
B) Did you really have to make sure we knew that you found Grey's vote to be a nulltell? Why?

D1 suggestions of no lynch makes me want to hurt myself plus he admitted to only doing it because it's consistent with his town meta. Worrying about meta consistency = scum.

Good point about worrying about meta. Except scum don't worry quite so openly. They are subtle about it. And he seemed to be more trying to mess with Calcifer's head than trying to be consistent with town play. So I personally don't believe that this was a scumtell. So actually, that's kind of a bad point.

Sorry Mastin, but I'm sure you'll approve of this one.

Unvote, Vote: Cookie of Death

The first scum of the day and it smells so good. Smells like hypocrites and cinnamon, wouldn't you agree?

Hey, you are right! Didn't even see that, but now that you mention it, that was a particularly hypocritical vote. Any explanation Cookie?

If you're going to sell yourself as hyperTownie, I'd expect the unrelated fluff-n-stuff to disappear. Is anything grabbing your attention, yet?

This seems to be jumping the gun a bit… Pine made two comments during the random stage, and yet DLG is telling him not to do that. I don't see DLG making the same comments towards any of the other "fluff-n-stuff" posts during RVS.

This is also a good point that I had missed. I'd like to know why DLG focused on Pine like this.

And I definitely don't like Calcifer's vote on Cookie at this stage in the game. Granted, I'm not a fan of Cookie's open dissent with Jerbs' vote on Pine, but I don't think a vote followed by a bold declaration of scum is appropriate. That being said, I'm getting a vague town vibe from the Calcifer slot.

You commented on Cookie's vote yourself in the same post. Why is it worthy of a comment but not a vote? I have recently been acquainted with the fact that Calcifer appears town rather easily, so I am not making a read yet.

Additionally: there are too many players who haven't posted enough/at all to be declaring that someone is decidedly scum yet.

Oh, I see. D1 is a bit of a crapshoot, but if nobody ever made any such accusations, then the game would get precisely nowhere.

Sorry Mastin, but I'm sure you'll approve of this one.
Unvote, Vote: Cookie of Death
The first scum of the day and it smells so good. Smells like hypocrites and cinnamon, wouldn't you agree?

Tsk, tsk, nacho. You know what they say about assuming...

The lack of an explanation actually isn't the worst part of the post. The fact that it's on a townish target and it comes at a time when there's a lot of annoying feelings eminating from Pine is the worst part. Also, unless Jerbs is trying out a new playstyle, I don't remember him being somebody who usually flippantly states that someone is scum and slaps down a vote, but I'm willing to write this point off.

Glad you posted that explanation. Looks good. Why didn't you post that in the first place?

Those who don't open there thoughts up to the rest of town are scum. Give reasons for your list Calcifer. Also, I've seen very little value in any of Pine's posts and his sensitivity to everyone is lolable. Parama asking Mastin to explain himself is in no way paranoa. Don't post a list of scumspects unless you plan on explaining it. Winger is a hypocrite for harping on Pine's long posts when his last one was humongous.

Here's my list of scumspect though. (Calcifer and Pine)

Calcifer: For making an initial list of scumspects with no reasoning. I don't care if the reasons are retarded not giving any is scumtastic.

Pine: For his arrogant, long, and mostly pointless posts.

Oh and

Unvote

No need for my original joke vote to remain when we have prime scumspects coming out of the wood work now.

An unvote, but no vote when you have two scum suspects? Why?

Cool, Two Headed Boy saw the same thing.

-----bottom of page 3-----

[nhammen]

So you're scum waiting to see which bandwagon forms first. Good to know.

Unvote, Vote: C-Worl

~Pie

No, if that were true I would've voted Pine who had 3 votes on him at the time. I'm legit giving them a chance to respond before I vote.

At this point, I honestly haven't been keeping track of the sizes of bandwagons (too much to keep up with). But then again...
Could you explain why you noticed the sizes of the wagons like this?

ConfidAnon's vote for AGar after this game has only been going on for about a day is troubling to me, especially after the tossed-away THB vote.

Ummm... why is that the only thing you have to comment on, more than anything else? Also, what is troubling about it?

[nhammen]

so, the tl;dr version of page 5: c-worl goes on a crazy anti-Calcifer attack, and pine and c-worl suck at math, and GreyICE is the only person that has even heard of calculus. On a side note, I am a math grad student, and you could not be more wrong Pine. What is with all of the fluff on pg 5?

FoS: C-Worl

- Too many fluff posts.

So, you call C-Worl's anti-Calcifer crusade fluff? That looks like actual content. I am having trouble deciding whether that content is newb town or newb scum, but that is definitely newb play of some type. But fluff? No. That was the only content for the entirety of page 5,and you call it fluff?

Both Empking and AGar have accused Pine of trying too hard. His walls have been a it dense, but I haven't seen any scumtells within (possibly due to this density). Oh god, I am now going to have to go and iso him, aren't I? ... Could someone else do that?

unvote, vote: silverbullet999

Actually, that last post reminded me of how useless he was. He's done nothing at all, but he's been here.

Silver, top 3 scumreads?

Good point from Friend. I don't remember anything that silver has done. Not that that says much on page 6.

Don't say I didn't warn you about the head slam...
Pine & Cworl- not the above reasons posted by others... but both of them saying i'm going to bed, makes me feel like they are secretly communicating with eachother to tell each of them that they won't be available later on. It's like they are trying to defend themselves from worrying that a case would be built on them while they are away thus to insure against that they state that they will be away.
*proceed with head slamming now to hearts content*
winger- post 131

Preview Edit:
Empking
-fair enough

My jaw just dropped so hard that it went into the ground and came out on the other side of the earth. Seriously? Seriously? Oh god, can you actually at least try?

105 is almost too stupid to be scummy... I'll give C-Worl a newb pass for the time being. Plus, my vote'll do better here:

Unvote, Vote: Pine

Why?

hmmmm....

VOTE: wraith

Really? Care to expand on that?

@DLG 163: That is a good case against Pine, and if nothing else comes by the end of my catch up, I will most likely vote him for what is presented in this case.

I'll admit that for now.

1.pine
2.cworl
3. [winger]

in no particular order

So, all newbies?

Interesting. I hadn't noticed that.

@Pine 169: Not sure if this is tunnel vision based on DLG's post, but it seems to me you are being quite defensive here.

Actually, now that I mention it, I was recently in a newbie game, and there was an extremely defensive player there that turned out to be town. Hmmm... I guess I shouldn't be using defensiveness as a scumtell with newbies as much as I do with experienced players, because it is more likely to catch newb town than newb scum.

@Calcifer 173: Are you seeing the same thing I am?

@Jerbs 189: I don't like the fact that you vote for Pine, and then wait for everyone else to come up with reasons before posting those exact same reasons. Especially when many of those reasons didn't even EXIST at the time of his original vote.


-----bottom of Page 8-----

Will post more after dinner (probably)

[nhammen]

diddin's Pine vote doesn't bother me as much as the fact that last post seems like he's just taking a few random quotes and sniping at pretty insignificant things.

To be honest, I have noticed a few people snipe at insignificant things, but I have been forcing myself to ignore some of this, because it's DAY ONE. That's what happens on day one because people don't have information. However, I agree that this was sniping at small things. I just don't think that it has much significance. There are better day 1 tells, like voting first and then only using explanations provided by later players (Jerbs), or posting fluff (multiple people).

Vote: GreyICE

I just isoed you and used ctrl-f to see if you had mentioned GreyICE before this. The answer: two times. One was for the math thing. The other was for a question asking if he had a problem with your logic. So what is the reason for this vote (near the top of page 9)?

Silverbullet, you really need more on you? You've done nothing this game. AT ALL.

Wagon on silverbullet. Now people.

I'm thinkin on that.

-Friend

Silver, your recent posts were alright, but it took way too much prodding to get them there.

Wasn't the only prodding the one post where you voted me...

C-Worl/Silver, before you taking GreyICE's word for it that I'm not doing anything, can you please read my posts first? Thanks.

Not taking GreyICE's word... you basically stated that I've done nothing a few times and called GreyIce case on you bullshit.
Thus it can be summarized as
1. you posted your views on players
2. you defended yourself
... that's about it

VOTE: Friend
Exaggeration is a baddie.

You had to be prodded to do even do number 1 on that list.

1. I don't really get the Pine wagon

2. Calcifer, why won't you explain why Pine is confirmed town? Because it's really hard to simply take someone's word for it.

This is scummy as all hell.

unvote, vote: Wraith

If you people say Wraith always acts like this, I guess I can get back on silverbullet.

unvote, vote: silverbullet999

Silverbullet, he's asking questions that people have already asked, he's being vague about the Pine wagon, and he's slightly rolefishing.

Explain what about Wraith's quote was "scummy as hell" and what rolefishing you saw from silver.

Hi all,
Please unvote ConfidAnon, C-Worl, Pine, and silverbullet999; they're all town.
Sincerely,
Calcifer.

silver? I can agree with the rest, but I'm not sure about silver.


-----bottom of Page 10-----

Bedtime. Will finish catching up tomorrow.

[nhammen]

SCUM
Antihero (Previously Cookie_Of_Death)
DLG
Friend
[winger]
TwoHeadedBoy (InflatablePie+Fugitive)

CONFIRMED TOWN:
Pine

TOWN:
Parama
Empking
diddin
AGar
ConfidAnon (Yes. He is.)
Jerbs
Wraith
GreyICE
nhammen
C-worl
evilpacman18
silverbullet999

We got this game. Let's lynch these scumbags. Doesn't matter what the order is.

You listed me as town. At a point in the game in which I had made only one post, which contained a random vote and an explanation of why I would be gone for 2.5 days. Where exactly did this town read come from?

Speaking of my random vote:
UNVOTE:
It is on a player that I do not believe is scum. I will vote for someone after finishing my catch-up.

More to come ... later I guess? Still near top of page 11...

[nhammen]

Ya know, at this point I'm pretty sure all mighty Calcifer would derail any of my other scumspects so whatevs.

Vote: Friend

This is the second time C-Worl even mentioned Friend. The first was pretty much just calling him rude. C has never called Friend scummy.

I spotted another player do this as well, just sec; let me check.

Vote: GreyICE

I just isoed you and used ctrl-f to see if you had mentioned GreyICE before this. The answer: two times. One was for the math thing. The other was for a question asking if he had a problem with your logic. So what is the reason for this vote (near the top of page 9)?

Maybe it was actually the same player.

Yeah, because I'm the one that got pissed that people suddenly started changing their votes just because Mastah Calcifer said so, that makes me scum. Honestly, you people are sheep.

Says the king of sheep himself. "Ooh we're bandwagoning Pine? I'm up for that." "Wait we're not doing that? Better get off this wagon ASAP."

Are you stupid or do you just choose to be ignorant? I voted for Pine only because Calcifer made another unbacked declaration that Pine was magically safe. I only unvoted because everyone else had their heads to far up Calcifer's bottom to realize that they were being manipulated.

I don't think that is the only sheeping that has been seen from you...

I stayed safe by completely avoiding RVS because of how it backfired on me in the game Calc referred to.

It only backfired on you in that last game because of your scum reaction to questioning about your random vote. If you are not scum, why do you need to avoid it?

Cookie's defense on Calc's suspicions is a needstobepolicylynchediftowntell.

Ummm... why? The bad meta is bad, but the first part of the defense makes sense to me.

I'm gonna observe real quick that early on, Calc made a post with a town/scum list in it and I was on neither list so I assumed it meant null. Recently Calc made ANOTHER one of the same lists and I was in the town section. The sole post I made between the two lists contained only an unvote and a "I'll post later." Explanation?

Oh cool! Someone else noticed this as well.

Calcifer, you need to at least give a brief summary of why you put people where you did on the list.

That would be a wall too long for my tastes. Even a summary would be too long. I have reasons for everyone on that list.

Then how about you give explanations for just the people that ask?

-----bottom of page 12-----

[nhammen]

So guys, which is better - trying to defend myself and getting shot down mercilessly by the asshole-ish nature of Calcifer, or simply doing nothing and letting myself get lynched anyways? Either way I feel like my lynching is gonna be a hell of an "I-told-you-so" moment for town and might sway this game. I'm totally fine with getting lynched.

So, this is more evidence Friend is scum.

The correct town answer is "scumhunt". Not defend yourself, not lurk your way out of getting lynched.

Nuts. I was multi-day ninjaed! I was going to post: ChooseAThirdOption (aka, you could hunt scum)

Yeah, but when I try to scumhunt you criticize my style. What's the point?

If you are town, then keep trying. If you are scum, give up now.

-nhammen

I'm thinkin on that.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Explain what about Wraith's quote was "scummy as hell"

You do realize I asked this a couple pages ago and have since been constantly ignored about it... right?

Good point. Hey, Friend! You could also try answering questions that people ask you, instead of ignoring them.

Did you really have to make sure we knew that you found Grey's vote to be a nulltell? Why?

Because town and scum alike vote NL as a way of getting out of RVS (someone votes them for voting NL, and then other people vote THOSE people...). It was worth a mention that Grey's vote was indeed a nulltell. It was the only thing that really stuck out at the time, so I brought it up. I'm more curious as to why you're asking why I'm giving my reads - more information helps the town, does it not?

I'm actually asking why you gave that as a read, but had no other reads. If you would have answered both questions that I had asked instead of just that one, you would have realized this from the context.

In addition, concerning Post 158/ISO 4 of mine, is the why addressed to:
Why my vote would do better on Pine? I still find him suspicious and there were more votes on him and more support for a lynch than on C-Worl. I enjoy placing my vote where it has more importance, especially if I'm deciding between two people I find scummy.
Why I said it was too stupid to be scummy? I'll quote it for you and you can read it yourself:

No need for the quote. I was asking why your vote was on Pine. You mentioned him multiple times, but never mentioned any suspicions of him before that post. And you did not give reasons in that post either.

And before anyone yells meta, it's personality again. Emp is a very forceful personality who loves to be right, and either isn't easily intimidated or fakes it reasonably well.

He's also as linear as some of my newbies in newbie games. No way in hell does he not have long lectures for us on why his terrible reads are right. I mean they'll still be terrible, but as town he always has convoluted explanations of why he's right. As scum, I'd expect a hell of a lot more like this.

Bad Emp, no treats for you!

Bad meta attack. Do you have examples of scum games where he has played this differently?

View Parama's posts in isolation. He's done practically nothing but lodge votes with poor or no reasoning and tear down the efforts of people scumhunting. Lurking/sniping/counterproductivity.
UNVOTE: C-Worl (The case against him's gotten stale anyway)
VOTE: Parama

Welcome to my large game meta, Pine. I suggest you dealwithitdog.jpg.

Bad meta defense. Why is this your large game meta? If people complain about lack of content from you, saying deal with it doesn't seem like a pro-town attitude.


-----bottom of page 14-----

[nhammen]

I'm gonna observe real quick that early on, Calc made a post with a town/scum list in it and I was on neither list so I assumed it meant null. Recently Calc made ANOTHER one of the same lists and I was in the town section. The sole post I made between the two lists contained only an unvote and a "I'll post later." Explanation?

Explanation?

I expanded my reads to everyone instead of just a select few.

Calcifer, you need to at least give a brief summary of why you put people where you did on the list.

That would be a wall too long for my tastes. Even a summary would be too long. I have reasons for everyone on that list.

You listed me as town. At a point in the game in which I had made only one post, which contained a random vote and an explanation of why I would be gone for 2.5 days. Where exactly did this town read come from?

There was no null section, so you got a free pass based on benefit of the doubt.

Would you like to explain this apparent contradiction? You have reasons for everyone, but I was a null read? Something is missing.

[nhammen]

diddin : [winger]

Would actually bet some money this is a distancing from two bad players.

Kindly fuck off.

unvote, Vote: [winger]

I was reaction testing Parama to see if he's OMGUS me for voting him. Apparently not.

When accused of distancing from two bad players (this is after he called C-Worl idiot town), he overreacts like this and then backs down. This is pretty much the furthest thing from a town reaction possible.

How is this backing down? I can understand the not reading the thread comment (earlier in the post; didn't want to quote the whole thing), but I don't get this. Could you explain?

I was asking why your vote was on Pine. You mentioned him multiple times, but never mentioned any suspicions of him before that post. And you did not give reasons in that post either.

Like I said in my very first post, his rambling gave me scummy vibes. His posts haven't given me a town vibe at any point in this game, so I've left my vote.

Fair enough.

Silverbullet, he's asking questions that people have already asked, he's being vague about the Pine wagon, and he's slightly rolefishing.

YOU PEOPLE ARE LITERALLY FUCKING ILLITERATE. I AM SO DONE WITH THIS GODDAMN AWFUL TOWN.

Ooohhhhhh. I thought you were saying silverbullet was doing this, not Wraith. That's why I asked what rolefishing you were talking about. This makes so much more sense. Except... saying that he doesn't understand the Pine wagon is being vague about the Pine wagon? How so? Also, the questions he asked are the rolefishing, so I don't see why you need to state it twice.

meh, it seems I've let myself fall behind on this game.

Well, my vote's being wasted, so UNVOTE:

Have to catch up now.

It would not have been entirely wasted; I was deciding between Jerbs and Friend. Friend has acted scummy, and has more support, but I find some of Jerbs' behavior to be quite scummy. I can't really get behind the Pine wagon at this point in time.


-----bottom of page 17-----

[nhammen]

He's not taking a stance on the Pine wagon (in that quote). Simply saying "I don't get it" doesn't add anything at all to the discussion. If you think he's town, say why you think he's town.

I would assume that saying he doesn't get the wagon is his way of asking people to explain it. Just a thought that I arrived at from common sense...

This is where the inconsistency is. Obviously friend feels wraith is rolefishing and finds it suspicious, yet also admits that this same question was asked by others, why did friend specifically focus on wraith? With this same logic, the multiple other people would then also be rolefishing thus he should also find them suspicious, but nowhere does he state this. He simply accepts someone's explanation one post after and votes me again.

More or less my guess with his slight attack on wraith was him trying to earn town cred by starting a wagon and making it look justified, however he realizes it's not going to work and backs out and sloppily throws reasons together when asked, hidden away and playing so hard to have us not find the damn answer.

Interesting case. This does look very suspect.

Yes, other people were rolefishing. But Wraith's was worse. I don't even really suspect Wraith as much as I do other people.

If you didn't suspect him as much as other people, why did you vote him instead of these other people?


I find it very interesting that silver and friend have been going after each other like this, when they are playing with very similar styles.


And Hiraki enters the game. He doesn't like silver, and for a time I agreed with this. But the way silver has been tunneling on Frie

[nhammen]

stupid keyboard

[nhammen]

So control plus something else cause posting apparently. I had to get the cat off of the keyboard...

So as I was saying:
The way silver has been tunneling on Friend doesn't look like scum. Other than that, I would agree with you.
The vote on Calcifer looks odd. I an agree that there are a few contradictions, but it is not necessarily scummy at this point.

[nhammen]

I'm gonna echo the others and say that I'd like to know why you don't find Friend to be scum, Hiraki.

I am caught up.

VOTE: Friend
because unlike Hiraki, I believe he is scum. The case that has been presented looks good.

I could also support Jerbs, because of his vote on Pine that was only explained after everyone else had provided explanations. And his reasoning included things that had not yet occurred at the time of his vote.
Actually, cookie/Anti's response to that was kinda poor as well, and I do not remember too much content coming from this slot, so I could go with this as well.
Similarly lack of content from EPM.
And I guess c-worl's constant sheeping deserves mention, but I could see this as newb town as well.

Other than that, everyone I can think of right now is town or null.

Preview-edit:

Ok guys, pretend I'm retarded. I'm not seeing the Friend case. At all. Can someone please sum it up for me? I already explained why Calcifer's notion that he was on every major early game wagon was BS and got no responses, only continued pushes that he is scum. His frustration looks generally townie to me.

Other than this, he has refused to cooperate with the town, and has refused to scumhunt or contribute any worthwhile content for large portions of the time. It has been all AtE all the time, and this AtE frustration could come from scum as well as town, but the fact that he has been using AtE to the exclusion of scumhunting pushes it over for me.
For a recent presentation, see also:
Parama 444

[nhammen]

nhammen, what reads do you have so far, aside form those mentioned? Fresh perspective would be nice.

Well, I posted most of my scumreads. I forgot about TwoHeadedBoy claiming that c-worl was waiting to see if the Pine wagon grew, and then himself waited to see if the Pine wagon grew (near the beginning of the game). There has not been too much scummy from this slot since then, so I forgot about this.
Unfortunately all of my town reads keep doing things that seem a bit scummy (Calcifer, Pine), knocking them from being town reads any more...
Except for GreyIce/IceyCupcake, who I have as solid town.
And silver is mostly Town, because I can't see this sort of tunneling coming from scum.
I guess that TwoHeaded's tunneling on Pine could be seen similarly. But his waiting to do so near the beginning changes my view a little bit.
I had c-worl as newb-town, but I'm not sure it isn't newbscum, after seeing how much of a super-sheep he has been.
That's all I can remember right now, without going over the player list.

Also, nhanen voting Friend after finding a Calc contradiction is mucho disturbio.

Did you not read my post? I shall quote the relevant statement again:

there are a few contradictions, but it is not necessarily scummy at this point.

Meaning, he has lost the townie points that I gave him, but it isn't enough to push him into being scummy yet.

@THB 523: Wow, that is what I am now going to name a tunneling wall. I agree with a few of the points in this wall, but if you are trying to find something scummy in every single post someone makes, then it is just tin-foil hat paranoia speaking. That is such bad tunneling, it's not even funny. Actually, this tunneling has me convinced on THB town, similarly to silver.

[nhammen]

Why should Fugitive? You're not making any sense Hikaru. Also, stop ignoring Pine's questions. Why are you claiming Friend to be towny, if you don't give your reason eventually someone will hammer him.

My mistake. Meant Cookie/Anti.

Because no one has made a valid case up, I'm going to assume there is no good case.

So, in other words, your adamant defense of Friend has no basis beyond your say-so. And yet you're vilifying Calcifer on almost exactly those grounds?

Exactly.

I could make a case on Calc. If you want me to.

So, what you are saying is that you would like people to vote for Calcifer, and have a case ready, but haven't provided that case yet. Why haven't you provided such a case? I don't see any reason that a town player would not give a case if they had one.

I think pine is scum, but lets follow what Calc said.

Doesn't anybody else see how scummy this slot is?

Oh, yes! Well, it's diddin, but at least it is someone.

He's certainly been attacking Pine quite a bit the last few pages. You call that not scumhunting?

He's been doing what? Where has this been?


Holy hydra-insanity!

[nhammen]

Ummm... I would have liked Calcifer to explain his contradiction before the day ended. Waiting to hammer should not depend only upon whether the player should be lynched, but also on whether there is any ongoing discussion.

Calcifer, we need you in here before the mod gets here!

[nhammen]

Bad timing for night to end. I procrastinated all spring break on my homework, so am doing it now. Will post something tomorrow after turning in said homework. If my brain is not fried from my all-nighter.

[nhammen]

Catching up from the start of Day 2. There seem to have been 8 pages in 2 RL days, how fun.

If Pine flips scum I'm up for a Calcifer lynch tomorrow.

Interesting how you are trying to make sure a very townie looking player would go down if Pine flips scum. Also, hey, what if Pine doesn't flip scum?

Vote: Pine

As said by everyone else

Can people not see how scummy this guy is?

Jerbs is scum with Pine.

Hmm... I can see this. Although personally, I would vote Jerbs first. Simple logic: Jerbs looks scummy regardless of Pine's alignment.
@Parama 628: This looks very good too. I'm glad people have finally noticed Jerbs.

So your entire case on us is that
1) We play like crackheads.
2) We don't give reasoning.

Is there an other significant points we're missing?

Hiraki's "case" wasn't one. But I do have a complaint. I found a contradiction in your posts. See here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2876050

I wouldn't mind, but I asked earlier, and you have not replied.

I can give reasons, but mainly it has to do with the voting record from yesterday. Don't really want to say any more than that atm.

Vote: Parama

How about you give reasons anyways

The way I see it, Parama, you make a habit of misrepresenting whoever you see as vulnerable, ignoring anything that contradicts your premise, and trying as hard as you can to skim others' reasons, distill them, and present them as your own in an effort to win their support. And when anyone appears to be honestly scumhunting or willing to declare support or condemnation for someone you disagree with, you go ahead and paint them blackly too.

All that is remarkably scummy, and I'm surprised that only I saw it in Day One. Though I'm not surprised that a replacement, who read the thread without preconceived notions, saw what I did.

Actually, it is more of a playstyle tell than a alignment tell.

Rationale for Jerbs would be awesome.

Seriously? Are you his buddy?

Not really. You read like town pushing your reads really hard. I don't think scum would intentionally connect themselves to a buddy so much so early D1.

I agree with this. Main reason I have a townread on Calcifer. Regardless of his contradiction on D1 (I would still like an explanation on that).


-----bottom of page 27-----

[nhammen]

Well, I was going to make more posts yesterday, but SOMEONE decided to hammer after the day had been open for just over 48 hours. So, in case you wanted to see what I wrote at the end of the day, here it is:


I just realized that Anti's opinion of Jerbs has been a contradiction. At first he says that Jerbs is scummy for riding the common wave of thought. Then, after Romanus says that Wraith and Jerbs are his other top suspects, Anti asks what the rationale for voting Jerbs is, while completely forgetting that up to that point, Jerbs is the only player that he had been suspicious of, and that he had posted a rationale for voting Jerbs himself. So what is the explanation for this, Anti? Were you just faking your suspicion of Jerbs?

Day just started and you're already abandoning the wagon. Great job scum, please come again.
Though now I am INCREDIBLY wary about the Jerbs wagon... eh, bussing and all that is probably a factor here.

^Delayed OMGUS. "Great! He's no longer voting for me, so I can begin tearing him down without looking scummier."

Ummm.. huh? You are accusing someone of OMGUSing an unvote? Seriously?

Pine: The whole point is that Romanus did exactly what he accuses me of doing... at the same time he accused me of it!

Is hypocrisy a scumtell? If so why?

ignore this, since he is no longer able to answer

AGar? Lolz. Idiots are PR hunting.

Can't be Calcifer, he'd be better at it than that.

Interesting idea. Why do you think AGar's kill was based on PR hunting? Did you spot PR tells from AGar?

Lurked, made 'catchup soon;' comments, then voted for friend in a vote that said "oh person X is scum, VOTE: Y"

And then lurked to the lynch.

Scummy as HELL

I honestly can't remember a single contribution from EPM. This is quite scummy.

Friend (7): silverbullet999, AGar,

Parama, Wraith

, Pine, C-worl, Iceycupcake

Pine (7) : Diddin (2), Empking,

Parama, Wraith

, Jerbs, Evilpacman18

AGar's confirmed town, obviously. Pine's town, too. C-worl is newb-town, Icey is obv-town. Silver I've got a town-read on. So, where are the scum? It really leaves only Wraith and Parama.
On Pine--Diddin's prob-town with the double-vote ability. Empking's prob-town, too. Evil's prob-town as well. Leaving Parama, Wraith, and Jerbs as scumspects. Note Wraith and Parama's voting pattern.

How is EPM prob-town?


-----bottom of page 29-----


And then I tried to post this and found out that the topic was locked. That makes me so happy!! [/sarcasm]

tl;dr
I still haven't gotten an answer from Calcifer about his contradiction on D1, and I do not expect to. He still appears townie for the most part, but his refusal to answer seriously bugs me. But now I have a few more things: Antihero had a contradiction regarding his opinion on Jerbs,and I would very much like an answer for this. The other thing, I would like Fugi to explain WHY IN THE HECK he hammered after day had been open for just over 48 hours!! I cannot see why this hammer makes any sense from a town perspective. Until I get that explanation (and probably after), I will
VOTE: TwoHeaded

I guess that wasn't really a tl;dr...

[nhammen]

I guess the fact that I hadn't finished my catchup may have an effect on this, but I still think that a hammer that quickly is pretty bad. There may be a such thing as too much discussion, but we had not gotten anywhere close to that yet. More discussion would have been a good thing.

[nhammen]

WARNING! Incoming End of D2 Wall incoming:


@Pine 733: Good case on C-worl, except you mention the use of newb defense too often, and I do not believe that he has been using a newb defense. You also forgot to add the fact that c-worl has been sheeping frequently to your list of scumtells.

Why is nobody mentioning Wraith?

Why is nobody mentioning EPM? Oh wait! You are both getting mentioned.
Seriously, EPM, if this is the best content you can produce, you really need to try harder.

Hmm, I can see now why Wraith was deflecting attention. EPM pointed at Wraith, so Wraith deflects to the dead issue of Hiraki's flip. But what was EPM deflecting onto Wraith? My suspicion of C-Worl, or the growing Jerbs wagon?

I don't think this was Wraith deflecting. I think that EPM was prod-dodging by producing "content" rather than trying to deflect from something.

@silver 752: Congratulations! You have found more contradictions from Romanus. Just like the ones that Parama found.

@Pine, That wall was a humorous read.

@Everyone, why exactly is Jerbs scum again?

@Calcifer, (mainly Mastin) I honestly don't care about your Pine read. I just want to know why you suddenly had a huge switch of "reads" during the middle of Day 1.

@Pine, Also, if I were scum I would have jumped on your wagon the second I got on. I legitimately don't think you're scum. Although, Calcifer's defense of you makes my "Calcifer is scum" theory more plausible.

I agree about wanting to know about Calcifer's reads. But the comment asking why Jerbs is scum was answered a few posts above that one. And your responses to Pine are full of WIFOM. Not that WIFOM is a scumtell, but it is completely useless. This means that the majority of this post was completely useless.

@Pine 755: You seem to be seeing deflection everywhere, and I don't think it is being used as much as you think it is.

-Rom
... are you serious dude? Do you want me to bolden it for you? Christ now I know how parama felt... Let's try this again

Yeah he has refused to see any case against him, even though there are multiple. He refuses to back down, even when he should.

C-Worl, Empking, ConfidAnon, diddin, diddin, Hiraki, Calcifer, Parama = 8.

9 To lynch.

Nice try, scum. Hammering someone else is kind of the ultimate deflection, isn't it?

Jerbs hasn't even posted in two full days. I don't think there was a single vote on him last time he checked in.

WHOA!! You NEVER point out a false hammer! What if Jerbs had believed that there was a hammer and his reaction told us his alignment? We would be much better off.

BTW: Jerbs is town.

This is true.

How did you know this? I am seriously thinking you are scum, because you are too confident about this.

How is Evil town? I think you is smoking the good stuff.

Last game I was in he was 10x as town as this. He was serial killer.

Which is basically town when you're NK immune, and we lynched him but good, but he was the strongest town read I had in the game. He contributed and did interesting things and thought hard. I think he's avoiding me and this.

Yes yes yes! So much truth here! I have read games that EPM was in, and maybe played with him (not sure) and I have never seen this lack of content.

I have big assignments due Thursday and Friday. I'm gonna call V/LA till Friday night or Saturday. I'll catch up then.

Yo!


End of the End of D2 Wall.

[nhammen]

I want EPM and Romanus DEAD. I have a newb-town read on C-Worl, and a 'waaaaaa' read on Silver, but [winger] was just a newb read. I can and do read newbies, and I have the links to prove it, and frankly he read like scum who was trying.

EPM is worse than Romanus. C-worl is a bit scummy, but there are multiple other players that are much worse than C-worl, so I would not support a C-worl lynch at this point. I find silver to be solidly town.

And now Rom is throwing a retarded case at silver.

Long Answer: Calcifer softclaimed a PR D1 when he declared you confirmed town. If I were scum, I would have killed Calcifer that first night, no question. Calcifer was not targeted and is still alive, before he refuted his softclaim. So, first evidence: He's buddying you, who is being framed as scum by the scumteam. When you flip town he'll go "Totally called it guys. Gimme townpoints." Second evidence: He softclaimed PR and is still alive. Third evidence: He lied about being a PR.

This is full of WIFOM. Although, it would also explain why he was willing to make that bet: because scum already knows what alignment Pine will flip with. But that doesn't conform with my townread on Calcifer. I will have to think about this though, because it would explain a lot.

Pine,

who else is getting sucked in?

Everyone voting for Romanus. They're getting sucked into the Town vs. Town fight.

I thought that was reasonably obvious.

@Wraith: lolfail

@Calc: Like I said, I've got a strong Town read on Romanus. Look at Rom again without all the shit Silver has shoveled onto him.

Or without the case from Parama too, I guess. Why are you protecting Romanus so much, Pine?

@Silver:

Vote: Romanus

Obv

Romanus is on the scumlist

I could go against Romanus, too.

I want EPM and Romanus DEAD.

Plus the avalanche of drivel you've shoveled against Rom.

Do you think we are all scum? Or just stupid? Do you think we would all fall for a fail-case? Silver and others raise good points, and the case DOES exist. Deal with that.

He seemed pretty conclusively scum and everyone else was dancing around the hammer when he clearly wasn't going to say anything. I'm mean his fucking post said "I'm a VT." No need to drag things out. Also, it pissed Pie off because he told me I couldn't vote that day. You can get your answers today, no need to throw a fit, your vote on us seems like a massive overreaction IMVHO - you still got your mini wall in and he was going to get lynched anyway. I'm keeping an eye on you for that vote, by the way. Call it an OMGUS if you want, but I rarely see votes on Day 3 with so few reasons and such poor reasoning as this. Your suspicion feels forced and feigned.

I agree that he was pretty conclusively scummy. But that isn't the problem with your hammer. You should have given more time for discussion. You just don't hammer after the day has been open for only 2 real life days. Only scum want to limit discussion like that.

Vote: Pine

He
s highly condescending and hypocritical. Also, so many people have claimed him to be town that I generally want to lynch him just to see how he flips.

What. Do you really think that this is a good reason for any kind of vote? If so, why? If not, then why did you place your vote there?

not sure that works, unless you want to consider pine's attack on wraith simply bussing.

Huh? Explain please. I understood all of the earlier discussion about how scum would have killed softclaimed-PR Calcifer, but I'm not getting this.

Geez you are getting increasingly frustrating to deal with Pine.

I've asked you to state your case. You said you will. You said you will at a later time when you have some free time. Then you finally say you have some free time but apparently you got distracted and decided to do something else with it. I've been patient and have waited for you to present a case yet you still cease to do so while simultaneously still making posts.

You've said the case I've had on rom is bullshit yet you also claim my case is agreed with others and have them voting or wanting to vote for rom. You keep bitching that "rom is town, leave him alone the case presented by silver is a joke" yet don't supply any reasons... more or less demanding that we just simply trust your almighty vision and wisdom.

To be frank I'm getting sick of it, and I don't know if I'm finding these actions scummy because of how frustrating and arrogant you are becoming or if they are because you are genuinely being scummy but I'd suggest you stop being an arrogant donkey, stop bitching and moaning, and actually make a productive post for once in this game.

I agree. Pine's refusal to give his reasoning is frustrating and would be scummy... under normal circumstances. But in this town, that seems to be the standard.

Multiple players have asked Calcifer to explain the contradiction in his lists, and he has posted and... refused to explain.
I asked Antihero to explain the reason that he changed his opinion on Jerbs, and he has posted and... refused to explain.
You have asked Pine to explain his pro-town read on Rom, and he has posted and... refused to explain.

Seriously! How can we scumhunt when many players refuse to answer questions that are asked of them? This is getting seriously annoying. Are our questions invisible? Do you people honestly think that this is pro-town behavior? What the heck is up with you people!?!? FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF [/rant]

[nhammen]

I don't think that Empking was saying that Pine and Wraith could be Masons. I think he was saying that scum might think that Pine and Calcifer were Masons, and so would have killed Calcifer, unless one of them were scum. Or at least, I was assuming that that is what he was saying.

[nhammen]

What. Do you really think that this is a good reason for any kind of vote? If so, why? If not, then why did you place your vote there?

Honestly, the condescending attitude is more or less me not liking him but his lynch would help out the game in a lot of ways. Depending on how he flips we can figure out if Calcifer was full of shit or not and it might get Calcifer to finally explain himself. After, I placed my vote on him I also realized that a wagon on him might get him to stop avoiding Silver's questions and actually answer them. A Pine lynch will also send a message that we are getting sick and tired of people who don't answer our questions which may lead to Antihero explaining himself as well. BC, right now, all these town/scum list that people have built without explanations, all it does is hurt the game. Especially when you have people like Calcifer who derail wagons without a justifiable reason why. Pine's death might actually give us stuff to work on.

Lynching for connections can be a good strategy to use when you have no substantial scum reads. But, not when you do have scumreads. And by D3 you should have some scumreads.

Pine is being framed. I drop my suspicions against him.

Vote: Calcifer

Not following this. Of all the people to vote, you pick his biggest defender? Considering you believe he was framed, that doesn't make much sense.

He has said he believes Pine is being framed by Calcifer...

Wraith's 875 isn't that great. Your discounting different possibilities - that Calcifer would softclaim a PR to give his reads more credibility and/or draw a night kill,

This is actually the precise possibility that he does account for. Because he softclaimed so hard, that if neither Pine nor Calcifer were scum, that should have drawn a NK. But I will admit that you have a point with the rest of the possibilities.

Okay, Romanus' first post is #633.
I'll admit, right up front, that this is where I started liking Romanus as Town. First post and he defends a Townie getting wagoned on. Scum would have NO reason to do this. I can't even think of a good WIFOM reason. He just replaced in, it would be

seamless

to jump on my wagon.

Scum always have good reasons to defend a townie. Have you not seen my questions against Antihero? Why do you think I am pushing this? How about this: 1) Scum don't want to have the entire scumteam be on a mislynch wagon. 2) Scum want to defend a townie in case the townie isn't lynched, so that if the scum flips as scum, people can see the connections between the flipped scum and the living townie, and draw incorrect conclusions (this is one reason for buddying) 3) Scum want to not be on a mislynch wagon, so that they can try and pin the people on the wagon as being scummy.

Unless there's already quite a few scum on the wagon, or he's trying to avoid obvious behavioral tells.

[Winger] had quite a few.

Romanus is scum too.

This too.

@Icey 956: Good Rom case.

Honestly, he's probably not scum (as much as I hate to admit it) his wagon built up quickly day 2, that really only effectively happens when scum are busing it, and that quickly at the beginning of the day indicates that scum were probably busing.

I don't get what you are saying here. Jerbs' wagon took 48 hours to build up, and he was not scum.

Well either way the argument was over by the time you posted. Also, I posted my scum reads (as per your request) in Hiraki, Calcifer, and Silver. But I'm a give and take type of guy so what reads do you have diddin and why? Also, if you have any thoughts on my suspicions they're more than welcome.

Two things:
1) Because the argument is over, he is not allowed to use it as evidence? What kinda shit are you smoking?
2) You have 3 scum suspects, and yet, are not voting any of them. Instead you voted for Pine, who it should be clear, has become a wagon that nobody will join. At this point, you had unvoted, but since you do have scumreads, why did you do this in the first place?

vote: Pine

Wraith is probably scum.

This, which came a week out of absolutely nowhere. Where you in fact vote for someone else despite thinking me scum. I guess the Pine-wagon was a-rolling-rolling.

Why is nobody mentioning Wraith?

Why is evilpacman not making a case on Wraith but pushing his lynch?

Still haven't lynched Wraith? I bet I'm gonna read the last 20 pages and not see one reason why we haven't. Let's do this.

Still pushing the Wraith wagon? I bet I'm gonna read the last 20 pages and not see one reason why evilpacman thinks we should. Let's do this.

Absolutely true.

Hiraki is town, though I'd love to see his additional input.

Antihero is... hmmmmmmmmm

nhamman looks suspiciously like scum if romanus is scum.

romanus/winger need to DIE.

EmpKing is SCUM

These are important pieces of information for us.

I'm glad someone is at least commenting on Anti. I don't know about looking like scum if rom is scum, but if he does flip scum, then me looking scummy is a good price to pay for catching scum. And as for Empking, I completely forgot he was in this game. Where has he been?

Yeah I have no excuse. Wait. Maybe I do. Will you accept "it was 3:30 AM" as one?

This proves EPM as town.

I'd be willing to join EPM for pressure. Don't like his reasons though.

This does not prove EPM as town. Also, being willing to join the wagon for pressure, even after he has been "confirmed" town is a bit odd.

Wraith claim makes sense.

Calcifer mainly. I think he's prolly scum (Though no one listens to me) so his defense of Pine being town would be pretty stupid if Pine was scum. If Calcifer is town then that means he probably have a read. However, it's been about 2 weeks since we were originally promised a wall explaining his reads. Which is why I'm leaning toward Calcifer=scum. However, either way I realized Pine would most likely be town.

You should have realized that when you posted a scumlist that didn't include Pine, but you were still voting him.

The idea that you've thoroughly thought out every post in the game is laughable. My theory actually states the opposite: that you make occasional calculated and clever newb mistakes, in order to give you the license not to carefully plan each post.

I highly doubt this is occurring. And if it is, then C-worl is an incredible faker, in which case why not fake town, instead of newbtown.

[nhammen]

Oops! On the second to last point I made an error. When he posted the scumlist that did not include Pine, C-worl unvoted. The argument still stands, since he had assumedly had those scumreads already.

Also
UNVOTE:
I would vote EPM here, but that wall he produced was too crazy to be from scum

[nhammen]

Actually, wait a second! I am falling for the too scummy to be scum fallacy!

VOTE: EPM

[nhammen]

Have been busy since before Day opened sorry. Have received prod. I skimmed each page, and will do a full reread... sometime in the next few RL days. I saw that we are doing a massclaim, and thanks to the fact that silver asked for me to be next to claim at the top of a page, I know that I am next.

Claim: VT

Next: Romanus.

[nhammen]

OK... so he has flaked... are we letting him off of the hook for that? You do realize that if this allows someone to get off of the hook, then scum have a surefire method of waiting to be last to claim. I don't think that this is a good idea.

[nhammen]

oh fuggity fuckface another nilla claim.

We don't lynch Romanus without his replacement coming in because there's a chance he could be the Town Cop or something like that.

Yeah, I saw all of the nilla claims up there. I'm gonna speculate that with this few PRs (unless all 3 unclaimed are PRs), we have as small of a scum team that this game can support, with very few powers.

No I mean, we wait for his replacement to claim. That way he can't use his inactivity as a scum gambit. He either waits so long that he is replaced, or he is forced to come in here and post.

...

Except that I really would rather not wait. But I'm not gonna let scum off of the hook either. hmmm...

[nhammen]

I guess we have to wait though. Rom is the scummiest of the remaining players, and I'd like him to be the next to claim.

[nhammen]

Picking up prod.


First: I agree with THB's VCA. Empking looks extremely scummy.
I had Romanus as my top scum pick, but the VCA puts Emp far above Romanus on my scumlist.
With the reads I currently have, that D1 Friend wagon leaves C-worl as the only possible scum on it. Unfortunately, I had him as newb town (after a long deliberation), so I don't know what to think. I can't believe that the Friend wagon was an entirely town driven wagon. This needs some thought.

Unvote

Vote: Hikari

1278 sounds like an admitance of bussing. (Or rather annoyance when it didn't seem to work.)

Or we could be on the opposite spectrum of two views and therefore I'm telling you that calling it a scum v/s scum argument is stupid.

Hiraki is an expert user of the WIFOM. Why are you so concerned over the possibility of people seeing this as scum v scum? (Side note: I still have silver as town since D1, and that read has never changed)

Unvote; Vote: Nhamen

Just realized why he felt strange to me and it's scummy as fuck. He's only posted on the following dates. March: 7, 10, 11, 14, 16, 17, 21, 22, 25, 26, 29 and April 4 Think about that, this game has lasted over a month and he's only posted on 12 separate days. In fact 11, 17, and 22 are the only times where he posted a day after his last post. every other time he's disappeared for 2 days, or 3 days, or 4 days, Hell it was 6 days his post on the 4th.

Its called grad school. It means I can't post as often as I would like to. Its not just this game... Its my life in general that is suffering. Also, before April 4 was a little something called night, where we couldn't post.

Why is there so much discussion about another game that is (or maybe was) in signups? And an amusing discussion about a complete (and completely broken) game?

Lurking is when you are monitoring the thread, but not posting until exactly the right time. You know, like nhamman is really good at popping up with some analysis right about when it's time to lynch people, but when it's time to do some scumhunting, you can't find a nhamman anywhere.

I do not feel that I have been doing this. I have been trying to get in here at least once every two days, and I have definitely not been avoiding any scumhunting, as you are claiming.


lol @ Pie.

[nhammen]

First off, can we desecrate Anti's no longer warm corpse as punishment for that horrible failclaim? Something involving a baseball bat. Or a golf club. (why am I suddenly reminded of the GTA series?)

And Anti distracted us from Empking! He was obv-scum, until Anti's claim. Actually, he is still obv-scum. And the scum were probably jumping for joy when they realized they had a perfectly legitimate reason to jump off of their buddy. I would check for people that switched. Except that anyone with a brain would see this as a failclaim, and would switch. The signal to noise ratio

would be

is disgusting. Or rather, the noise to signal ratio.

So I guess the only thing to do is
VOTE: Empking
Let's do what we should have been able to do yesterday!

To Icey, I don't agree with the meta reasons for finding Empking scummy. I'm not sure, but thinking back, I think my history with meta cases has been little better than random. But THB's VCA evidence convinces me that he must be scum.

[nhammen]

@Pine 1541: I can see c-worl as scum, and your argument does support that. But I am uncertain, and there are multiple scummier players. He is on my list of 5 that I got from PoE, and his behavior has put him at #3 (behind Emp and Rom/zden and ahead of Hiraki and Hopp/Confid). Actually, now that I think about it, if my PoE is correct, and if we were to lynch straight down the list of everyone that remains, then we would win. Of course, those are two pretty big ifs.

WHY ARE WE ALL FORGETTING ROM GAD DAMN IT!

what's the difference between lynching one now and later?

Overall from my skim... I can see him being either, If his quote is true (I didn't check) then we should most def lynch rom first.

Moral of the story: Lynch Rom

Well, to me, Rom was scummy, but Emp is worse. I'd prefer we lynch in this order, just in case I am wrong about the people lower on the list. (I am more likely to be wrong about people lower on my list than people higher on it). In other words: I disagree with you about Rom/Zden being scummier than Emp.

@silver 1571: OK, I understand what claim you are talking about. And Empking is correct when he said that the VCA convinced me that Empking is scummier than Romanus. Is this what you were asking for? If not, I can provide an explanation for why:

While I do feel that both Emp and Rom are scummy, I felt that the VCA incriminated Emp enough to push him above Rom (and I still believe that). The VCA had cases against both Emp and Rom, and I agreed with the case against Emp. The VCA case against Rom seems to be what THB called "safe votes" (that is the only mention of Rom other than saying that he is scummy in that post), which I don't think is a valid tell, based on the large amount of townreads that also had these "safe votes". For example: "Safe vote awards go to Pine, IceyCupcake, Silverbullet, and Romanus." The first three are townreads. The last one is very likely to be scum. Thus, this tell is working about as well as random, AFTER assuming that Romanus is scum. Thus, the VCA did not affect my veiw of Rom, and so my feelings on Rom were still that he was very likely scum. But I agreed with the part about Empking enough to cause him to jump to being almost definitely scum and become the new #1 scumread. Does this clear everything up?

@Zdenek 1581: I agree with you about Hiraki, Emp, and Hopp being on the suspect list. However, silver showed himself to be obvtown on D1, and my read on that hasn't changed. Ice is almost certainly not scum for the simple reason that I highly doubt a scum neighborizer would have chosen Calcifer N1. It would be too risky.

Also, I'm inventing contradictions? Both of the things that I spotted as contradictions were actual contradictions. Unfortunately, in neither case was it a scum motivated contradiction, apparently, and so I was barking up the wrong tree. Anti's contradiction was in fact his

poor

horrible

absolutely terri-fail-craptastic attempt at a breadcrumb, apparently.

[nhammen]

-Nhammen

The VCA had cases against both Emp and Rom,

Didn't VCA paint me as scum in all three or so scenarios?

I looked back and it seems there were three mentions of you. One was "safe votes", which you have heard my opinion on. The others were the Friend wagon and the EPM wagon, both of which he determined would be one of c-worl, me, and you. In those cases, I find it more likely to be c-worl. I guess this is the source of the comment that Icey made: "every single VCA Mastin did suggested one of Silver or C-Worl was DEFINITELY scum."

[nhammen]

Well, for what its worth, in my opinion, zden has to be scum. He is at the top of what is left of my list. I guess silver was right, and I shouldn't have let that VCA sway my reads. Romanus should have remained at the top of my list, rather than me moving Emp up. Since the plan seems to be discussion over voting, I will refrain from voting zden at this time.

The hell I thought you wanted me to lynch Rom???

Unvote

A) It's LYLO
B) Was that your reason for the vote? Not that he was scum, but that you promised?

[nhammen]

For the record, I spotted Anti as Cop on D2. We just took the risk and let him live until he investigated THB. We knew he was going to. Or at least, we strongly suspected it. However, I was getting EXTREMELY antsy towards the D4 there, waiting for our prediction to go wrong. But, our gamble paid off incredibly well.

Also, he was incredibly obvious about who he had investigated. So when he had an innocent on pacman, I decided that if the wagon ever was derailed, I would try to rerail it, just so that we could lynch his investigation target again. Once THB was finally investigated, it was on the day of the massclaim! I thought we had waited too long, because he was sure to be protected that night. I never thought that the town would willingly lynch their cop! That was awesome!

[nhammen]

also, i was lurking a bit more than usual. However Ice got it backwards. He was saying I was lurking when it was time to scumhunt, but showing up for the lynch, when instead I was doing the opposite!! Oh, I was lurking while "scumhunting" too, but I was still "scumhunting", although quite poorly apparently.

[nhammen]

Why did I die N1, I'm curious?

Everyone was scared of your mad scumhunting skills. Seriously. I wanted to leave you alive though for fear of a doc protect on a player of notoriety. That and I wasn't afraid of your scumhunting after playing Manhattan Special with you.

Also, all other good scumhunters (Calcifer, Icey, etc.) had the either the entire, or almost the entire scumgroup listed as town. And this was before I had detected Anti as Cop.

Pine's scum. Don't trust the people defending me - they know how I'm gonna flip. Easy town cred when I do.

Too lazy.

ConfidAnon is probscum. THB is too. Calcifer is iffy.

Friend had us pegged on D1. Thank god he self destructed.

Also, most of the scumgroup has agreed to post the QT, but both heads of THB haven't weighed in yet, so I wont post it in case they mind. What about the Neighbor QT?

[nhammen]

I'm waiting to see the Neighbor QT. BTW, Fugi is the only Mafia member that has not OKed the release of the Mafia QT. So if you want to see the Mafia QT, bug Fugi about it.