Open 272 - Near-Vanilla (Over!)

[Bella]

Catch up post!

Bella

: Null-to-town. I hate the vote withholding thing gone over in 580. I have circled and underlined Bella's "If you try looking again, I'd look at more recent games than not recent games, because I've really hardened against the notion that you should have your vote on someone at all times over the last 6-12 months or so." in 580 vs "I don't really have the time to spend researching my own behavior for you and the only other game that jumps to mind is ongoing and thus is useless. Umm... there might be something in Secret Invasion mafia about how I use my votes, but I don't remember that very well because of the reasons I replaced out of it." when Farside tries to actually look it up.

That said, Bella's early attack on Battousai and second place on the Battousai wagon is a heavy towntell. Bus, bus, yeah, possible, etc, but to do it so early and so out of the blue, I'm not buying.

Generalities are easier to remember than specifics. And I hate people demanding that votes be placed, so we can both be unhappy together!

A TLDR

1. Although saying Nacho was certainly scum and would be lynched, she shifted her attention from him to Andrew.
2. Farside bussed Battousai at start, then defended him, then got him as her third suspect (which is a scumtell), then tried to get through an AntB lynch instead of a Battousai lynch. This all if heavily implying a farside-battousai scumteam.
3. She gave us some big scumtells day 2, such as wanting to know Egg's frame of mind and posting AntB couldn't fake-claim before he claimed.

Aside from the "third suspect" thing, which I'm unconvinced has any merit to it, this is a pretty strong case against farside. At the very least, it merits reevaluating farside because I had her solidly down as town up 'till this point.

I think it's safe now to say that the answer is yes. And why would this happen? A claimed VT has less value to town than an unclaimed town, so if she were town, she'd push even more. While on the contrary, mislynching an unclaimed town, or getting another claim, is so much more tempting...

I was waiting for looker to respond to my questions. I missed that he replaced out.
And yes I do still think AntB is scum. I'm sure my last post where I point out Batt's interactions was missed, since no one said I missed Broken (which I realized after I left).

unvote:
vote: AntB

I find the contrast between farside's defiant player descriptions when she quotes them with the comple4te surrender she makes in going back to AntB the second she's challenged for forgetting about him entirely intriguing.

@Farside:

Opinion on Conspiracy please.

Based on SoTS's play and Batt's comment I would say likely scum. Conspiracy only made one case, but hasn't stated anything on anyone else. I would say in terms of the case, it's a well thought out case. I could have made the case on myself (as even I saw things in my play I would call scummy).
I would like to also note I don't care for SoT's signing in for other games, but stating he is too busy to play in this one. It sets me on edge as he did it more under pressure, which again looks scummy.

This is quite OMGUSish, and the reasoning for suspecting Smashbro's replacement doesn't work.

@Egg: I still don't get why you exclude Looker from your list. I reread you, and you said you see many interactions between Battousai and Looker, but, rereading Looker's ISO, I can't find a single line directed to Battousai...

Battousai also only mentions Looker once, and just to say he has played with him before. Sorry about the double post.

That's because Looker only posted three times between Batt replacing in and being lynched, and he did reference Batt - placing him equal with Nacho on the third tier of his little color coded chart thing. I mean, you could try and link them together with this, but I thinkg a more reasonable explanation is that Looker wasn't active enough at that point for them to get much chance to interact.

2) I honestly cant believe you are still pushing the whole meta based on one single game thing. I really have nothing more to say on this. If you cant fathom how basing a players entire playstyle on one single game is faulty then there is no point arguing. Plus, you dont even know how I played in that one single game that I played before coming to this forum, and yet you are making conclusions based on it? Please tell me exactly how with one game here, and one somewhere else that you have no clue of, you come to my current playstyle as being a scum read? Manufacture away!

If you can scum hunt in one game. You can't say you can't do it another game. It's BS excuses

Remind me, how many scum did I actually find in that game? Zero? So how is finding zero scum an indication that I know how to hunt and what to look for, and that I shouldnt change something about how I play in order to be a better townie?

The results are less important than the mindset and methods. You're capable of trying to look for scum, yet you are not.

Well, it seems farside22 forgot that the VT PM was posted by the mod at the start of the game (and it didn't hit me either, until now).

Open 272: Near-Vanilla

You are a Vanilla Townie. You have no abilities or actions. Please confirm in thread.

It doesn't look to me at all like what farside22 soft-claimed, as it doesn't mention that voting is the only thing VT can do. I doesn't mention vote at all, actually.

This is an immesnsely stupid argument and you should be ashamed for making it.

Blech. UNVOTE: AntB, VOTE: farside22

[farside22]

This is quite OMGUSish, and the reasoning for suspecting Smashbro's replacement doesn't work.

Really? How is it when someone asked me my views on SoTS (who I had on a scum list prior to this question) OMGUSish?

I should not have have 4 scum reads in this game people. If your FUCKING TOWN START ACTING LIKE IT!
Please dear God.....*prays for a hammer*
I promised after I hammer as town the last night and was modkilled for doing it, I would not do it again. But people's play in this game is horrendous.

Consp- can't get a case right. See's meta, does an iso and accuses me of scum bussing but I didn't bus Batt's so I'm so.
Archer- failing scum
Looker - voting for Egg (who claimed JK)
Bella - BW voting with weak case


The top 2 I see scum together. The other 2 need to be seriously looked into, but don't let Consp flail around. He slipped just read his post about separating AntB and Archer claiming one town based on my attack but not saying the same about the other. Then claims I'm bussing Archer, then backtracks. Seriously he's scum. I made sure he can't fall back and now call AntB scum when I flip town. He's screwed if I"m correct about him being scum.

[Egg]

Anyone trying to direct me, I'm not taking your advice into consideration at all. I'll be doing the same thing tonight as I did last night (not necessarily targeting the same person, but with the same idea in mind).

It's Archer/Andrew, but I'm willing to hammer Farside come deadline.

[Archer]

Farside you ignored the last lifeline I threw at you. So I see no reason to switch my vote.

Looker, WTF is up with your vote???

[Bella]

This is quite OMGUSish, and the reasoning for suspecting Smashbro's replacement doesn't work.

Really? How is it when someone asked me my views on SoTS (who I had on a scum list prior to this question) OMGUSish?

You appear to have turned much harder on the slot based on little more than ConSpiracy making a case against you - I mean, the case you made against him is based on another player's play when CS has contributed enough that you could have made some judgment of him.

[ConSpiracy]

Since you can't see it yourself, I will show you:

Why farside can't be the doc
She said this to AntB

So as scum you see that I would stop a someone I think is scum from fake claiming. Your seriously saying as scum I wouldn't wait to have AntB claim his VT role instead when I pointed out something before hand?

IE: I already pointed out what you were going to quote but nice dodge of my question though.

1. Both of you are town/you are town, AntB is scum
- You want to warn others of AntB's claim. He couldn't fake-claim doc. <- useless, because if he fake-claimed doc, he would have been busted with a counterclaim
2. You are scum, AntB is town
- You knew he wouldn't fake-claim so this post wouldn't do any harm. In the small chance that he is the doc, you can lynch a confirmed townie.
3. Both of you are scum (unlikely)
- You wanted to warn him if he prepared a fake-claim.

It was a win-win situation when you posted it, too bad we noticed the scummy content.

I don't like this whole back-and-forth between Conspiracy and farside. It goes off into the weeds so easily on things that are so...bizarre...like Farside saying, "If I were scum, I'd be softclaiming doc", and Conspiracy replying with evidence from D2 that Farside wasn't softclaiming doc. Which just makes me go WTF? It reads to me like Conspiracy is simply going through Farside's post, and grabbing everything that could be taken as even remotely scummy, and throwing it into the mix. "Farside is scummy for calling Nacho obvscum D1, but then pressuring other players." Seriously? The aforementioned "There's no way Farside could be softclaming doc." The picture it puts into my mind is someone who has a predetermined goal in mind -- "Farside is scum" -- and is then simply looking for things that confirm this.

Interpret it in the way you want, but that is not true. I usually respond to her suspicions on me to show that she is wrong or just grasping straws. Some things I take out because they are just bad, such as the example of farside saying "scum would fake-claim doc" being null, because of the reason I pointed out.

[lord_hur]

This is an immesnsely stupid argument and you should be ashamed for making it.

Whatever. It wasn't an argument against farside22, as I said earlier.

Also, I completely agree with farside22. I know Bella is of the over-emotional type, but going from mostly town to vote-worthy in 1 post? Well, I won't vote since I've had her as town, but still...

Ok. I'm going to

Unvote Vote : ConSpiracy

Reasons :
- vote/unvote of Battousai makes no sense for farside22-scum ;
- Battousai talked about bussing after she did this, and I don't believe in scum talking about their partner's strategy openly ;
- what little I know of farside22 makes me highly doubt that she would ever use her mod powers without a legitimate reason (please forgive me for considering it, farside22) ;
- Magua is obv-town to me, and I agree with him now that ConSpiracy is going over the top, repeating himself and throwing everything he can regardless of the scumhunting value ;
- there are too many arguments I don't believe in piling on her right now ;
- her last post is as town as can be, imho : I've done the exact same thing before, the only time I've ever self-destructed (in my defense, it was a game based on cults, and me being alive, because of my "powers" and recruitability, made me a threat to town).

[farside22]

Scum slip 3.0......Consp didn't take the what you should never, ever do as scum class.
For those not reading the game.

For both is a reason. To be honest, I really couldn't bring to make a list all by myself because I made the farsidecase yesterday. I agreed with Magua's list about most players and that is why I used that list as the basis of my list. That is also why I forgot Magua, because he isn't on his own list. Anyways:

Lets number the things that is wrong with this post
1) Doesn't have an opinion on his own about others
2) Follows another player post, using another players tell to as his own.
3)

Magua

Replacing DP. DP's case on Egg was a good case and defenitely deserved townpoints. This mention of Battousai:

227- DavidParker is distancing = scum if nacho is town

Almost makes him confirmed town. A Nacho lynch was very likely to happen if Battousai himself didn't screw up. Why saying David is scum if Nacho is town while knowing Nacho would be lynched and would flip town? Because he would be a great second mislynch to put forward.
At last I played a game with DavidParker and he played exactly the same in that game. He was town in that game, so yeah...

obvious town

His obvious town analysis was made by me already.

All 3 points are essentially the same thing. Following, following, buddying, following, following, budding.

Farside you ignored the last lifeline I threw at you. So I see no reason to switch my vote.

Looker, WTF is up with your vote???

Reallly? This question here:

One new question, pretend that I'm town (since you obv think I'm not) and that I get lynched today. What suspects would you then have?

My response is still the same. YOUR NOT READING THE GAME I DECLARE YOU SCUM WITH CONSP. YOUR LINK HAS YOU NUMBER 2 BECAUSE OF THAT.

You can keep repeating questions all you want. The answer doesn't change because you don't read it.

[farside22]

1. Both of you are town/you are town, AntB is scum
- You want to warn others of AntB's claim. He couldn't fake-claim doc. <- useless, because if he fake-claimed doc, he would have been busted with a counterclaim
2. You are scum, AntB is town
- You knew he wouldn't fake-claim so this post wouldn't do any harm. In the small chance that he is the doc, you can lynch a confirmed townie.
3. Both of you are scum (unlikely)
- You wanted to warn him if he prepared a fake-claim.

See you never said this in your post about AntB. You declared him town. And again your missing a question I asked. Why if I was scum would I not let it pass that AntB already did a claim or point it out to others, giving myself no wiggle room later to fake claim for myself?
Also I asked another question you ignored. Who do you think is my scum partner and why?

[farside22]

@Archer: Are you male or female? Serious question, please answer.

[ConSpiracy]

Reasons :
- vote/unvote of Battousai makes no sense for farside22-scum ;
- Battousai talked about bussing after she did this, and I don't believe in scum talking about their partner's strategy openly ;
- what little I know of farside22 makes me highly doubt that she would ever use her mod powers without a legitimate reason (please forgive me for considering it, farside22) ;
- Magua is obv-town to me, and I agree with him now that ConSpiracy is going over the top, repeating himself and throwing everything he can regardless of the scumhunting value ;
- there are too many arguments I don't believe in piling on her right now ;
- her last post is as town as can be, imho : I've done the exact same thing before, the only time I've ever self-destructed (in my defense, it was a game based on cults, and me being alive, because of my "powers" and recruitability, made me a threat to town).

About the farside things I can´t say much about, you have to think of that yourself.
I have had 5 games before on this site and I have had this sort of `clash` once before. At that time I was also tunneling too much to get the other one lynched and that only worked against me. Oh well, next time I am going to have this game and the other one in mind to stop doing being over the top.

Scum slip 3.0......Consp didn't take the what you should never, ever do as scum class.
For those not reading the game.

Though I like your next attempt to make me scummy, you know that you are WIFOMing yourself out of points like this one yourself.
Why would I do this obvious buddying/following if I were scum?
Do I have to make entirely original reads on every body when I think the same about most of the other players? I think if you let every body make the lists themself you will find very much of the same reads.

Lets number the things that is wrong with this post
1) Doesn't have an opinion on his own about others
2) Follows another player post, using another players tell to as his own.
3)

1) Lol, this is stupid and moot and you know it.
2) First thing is right, second isn't. Again using your own opinion of me. Explain how a tell can only give a town vibe to one player.
3) So I may not use that to my read of him being obvious town? I can't even recall you saying this anyway.

See you never said this in your post about AntB. You declared him town. And again your missing a question I asked.

1)

Why if I was scum would I not let it pass that AntB already did a claim or point it out to others, giving myself no wiggle room later to fake claim for myself?
Also I asked another question you ignored.

2)

Who do you think is my scum partner and why?

1)

That was not the question in the first place, so nice attempt to give me fake scumpoints again.
Why would you keep yourself from fake-claiming doc?
you are pretending as if scum is obvious to fake-claim doc. Scum isn't, because they can get out of lynches. VT AntB (though not scum) got out of his lynch, too, when he claimed VT. If you would fake claim doc in the near future, the scum-team would have incredibly low odds to win. Hell, only in LyLo I can see the use of fake-claiming doc. So saying this isn't bad to earn some townpoints when disadvantages aren't huge either. Meh, I can see it as null now, not as scum. NVM, learning in the process.

2)

I think I read over that because it started unseriously and was the last post on that page. On top of that I was kinda in a hurry this morning so I was reading fast. Anyways, I had said that already here.

@Lord_Hur.

You can't disagree with me that farside is going over the top to me, as well.

[farside22]

Why would I do this obvious buddying/following if I were scum?

RED ALERT
RED ALERT
Using someone else excuse. Awesome scum stuff here.
Did you see it as obvious? Why would you do something that was following as town? What's wrong with writing you own POE? I don't see everyone have the same exact read you did because so far, 2 people think Archer is scum, 1 person thinks Andrew is scum, 3 people think your scum. I know bella is now on my scum list.
how many people have looker on their scum list right now?
It's not the same that's BS logic right there.

By the way that link is your initial post has 2 scum suspects but in no way explain a connection to me.

[lord_hur]

@Lord_Hur.

You can't disagree with me that farside is going over the top to me, as well.

No, I can't. She's also guilty of it.

I have had 5 games before on this site and I have had this sort of `clash` once before. At that time I was also tunneling too much to get the other one lynched and that only worked against me. Oh well, next time I am going to have this game and the other one in mind to stop doing being over the top.

Did you get him/her lynched?

[ConSpiracy]

Why would I do this obvious buddying/following if I were scum?

RED ALERT
RED ALERT

COMMAND AND CONQUER
COMMAND AND CONQUER

Using someone else excuse. Awesome scum stuff here.
Did you see it as obvious? Why would you do something that was following as town? What's wrong with writing you own POE? I don't see everyone have the same exact read you did because so far, 2 people think Archer is scum, 1 person thinks Andrew is scum, 3 people think your scum. I know bella is now on my scum list.
how many people have looker on their scum list right now?
It's not the same that's BS logic right there.

What do you think of the possibility I truely think that way? Have you even considered that? There is nothing wrong with writing my own list (What does POE stand for?), but as I said I couldn't bring up taking more than two hours of work to make two more lists. And I think you misinterpreted the rethorical question I posted:

Do I have to make entirely original reads on every body when I think the same about most of the other players?

I meant: Do I have to make entirely original reads on every body if I have the same reads on most players as someone else? (in this case Magua)

By the way that link is your initial post has 2 scum suspects but in no way explain a connection to me.

So, I had:
Lord_Hur town, Magua town, AntB town, Bella neutral town, Archer neutral town, Andrew neutral town, Egg obv. town.
That leaves both broken and Looker. I got on those with proces of elimination, not with connections. Hell, I bet both have hardly any connection with anyone, because they did very, very little.

I have had 5 games before on this site and I have had this sort of `clash` once before. At that time I was also tunneling too much to get the other one lynched and that only worked against me. Oh well, next time I am going to have this game and the other one in mind to stop doing being over the top.

Did you get him/her lynched?

Nope. Eventually we found someone else who was nearly confirmed scum due to scumpairings. But my scumread on her did end the game, because I killed her instead of the real scum. (Yes, yes, she wasn't even scum...) It is a bit complicated, so I suggest skim it yourself, I replaced chkflip in day four: Open 270: Medical mafia

[lord_hur]

Nope. Eventually we found someone else who was nearly confirmed scum due to scumpairings. But my scumread on her did end the game, because I killed her instead of the real scum. (Yes, yes, she wasn't even scum...) It is a bit complicated, so I suggest skim it yourself, I replaced chkflip in day four: Open 270: Medical mafia

You know you weren't NKed because he saw a tunnelling newb he could manipulate, right? Geez, that would have cured me of tunnelling forever.

Anyway, no scumtell here.

[Archer]

Farside you ignored the last lifeline I threw at you. So I see no reason to switch my vote.

Reallly? This question here:

One new question, pretend that I'm town (since you obv think I'm not) and that I get lynched today. What suspects would you then have?

My response is still the same. YOUR NOT READING THE GAME I DECLARE YOU SCUM WITH CONSP. YOUR LINK HAS YOU NUMBER 2 BECAUSE OF THAT.

You can keep repeating questions all you want. The answer doesn't change because you don't read it.

Thats the first time I've asked that?? Anyway, I see ZERO reason to unvote someone who is unable to even entertain the notion of being wrong. I am going to laugh my head off when I flip town, I just really hope you're still alive the day after. I would actually prefer you vote me off now so that I dont have to stand your incessant accusations anymore.

@Archer: Are you male or female? Serious question, please answer.

Yes. You ignore me, I ignore you. Fun for everyone

[inHimshallibe]

Official Day 2 Vote Tally

11 players remain; 6 votes needed for a lynch.

farside22 (4)

- AntB, ConSpiracy, Archer, Bella

ConSpiracy (4)

- brokenscraps, Magua, farside22, lord_hur

AntB (1)

- andrew94

andrew94 (1)

- Egg

Egg (1)

- Looker

Yet to vote (0):
==========================================

Deadline

: Wednesday, March 9 at 11:59:59 PM GMT-6

Prodding

: Magua, AntB, brokenscraps

[Bella]

I moved my vote to farside at the top of the page, inHim.

[inHimshallibe]

Doh, switched you and Looker in my sheet. Fixed'd.

[ConSpiracy]

Nope. Eventually we found someone else who was nearly confirmed scum due to scumpairings. But my scumread on her did end the game, because I killed her instead of the real scum. (Yes, yes, she wasn't even scum...) It is a bit complicated, so I suggest skim it yourself, I replaced chkflip in day four: Open 270: Medical mafia

You know you weren't NKed because he saw a tunnelling newb he could manipulate, right? Geez, that would have cured me of tunnelling forever.

Anyway, no scumtell here.

Well, that is not how it went. I wanted to avoid telling everything, but I might as well do it anyway.

Medical mafia day 4

- We were in LyLo with these 5 people: empking (scum), bub bubberskins (scum), ConSpiracy (quack doc), Kikuchiyo (weak doc) and Packbat (Naive doc).
- I just replaced in and attacked Kikuchiyo firmly, because she didn't do anything townish throughout the thread.
- The discussion between us heated up a lot (basicly the same as with me/farside here) and we both thought each other to be scum.
- However, we eventually lynched Empking due to connection problems between all of the other four (a bub-CS connection was unlikely, bub-kik, CS-kik, etc)
- Due to some statistics failure we lost the game. (I won't go to far into this) We

didn't

lose it, because of me tunneling. He actually NKed me in the game, because he thought he could manipulate Packbat more. That is possibly the reason I didn't really learn from it. Oh well, I will never tunnel this hard again. Maybe it would be a great idea to hydra with a more experienced player to see how they handle scumreads.

• UNVOTE: VOTE: Egg

Why did you vote Egg?

[Magua]

So, deadline's in 24 hours. No majority => no lynch.
Andrew needs to move his vote to someone who might be scum.
Looker needs to...you know what? Words just fail me. We'll lynch him tomorrow.

Reading Conspiracy and Farside's posts at this point is just painful, because there's nothing new. This diversion into what happened in Medical Mafia is useless because self-meta'ing is useless (and is even self-admittedly useless in this case). I don't like it. It's not useful.

Between the two of them, I overwhelmingly think Conspiracy is the scum. The kitchen-sink arguments, the complete and total tunneling, the fact that Conspiracy can agree with every single one of my reads at the same time that I'm calling him scum. It just all feels wrong.

[farside22]

What do you think of the possibility I truely think that way? Have you even considered that? There is nothing wrong with writing my own list (What does POE stand for?), but as I said I couldn't bring up taking more than two hours of work to make two more lists. And I think you misinterpreted the rethorical question I posted:

You stated it was obviously following and buddying.
POE should have been POV sorry.
Hey I have a job too, but I did my own research and POV's during the course of the game. (IE: suck it up if that is the best excuse you got)
By the way I got the sarcasm but it also looks like your trying to downplay a serious scum tell.

I meant: Do I have to make entirely original reads on every body if I have the same reads on most players as someone else? (in this case Magua)

How do I know this is your read on players if you used someone's else's write up?


@Archer: Really I answered your questions. You just don't like my anwser. weeeeee

So since Archer doesn't want to play ball question to Consp. Is there a reason you called Archer she? I'm just wondering because I notice that MS is mostly male oriented environment and Archer didn't correct you either.

[lord_hur]

So since Archer doesn't want to play ball question to Consp. Is there a reason you called Archer she? I'm just wondering because I notice that MS is mostly male oriented environment and Archer didn't correct you either.

He called me and brokenscraps (maybe others) "she" too. My guess is his mastery of english isn't perfect.

Would 4 vs 5 votes result in a lynch, or do we have to reach 6?

[AntB]

Has to be six. I am wiIlling to hammer CS if needs be. I will check at around 12-1AM GMT and hammer then if needed (11 hours from now.)

[ConSpiracy]

How do I know this is your read on players if you used someone's else's write up?

I didn't entirely copy it. Things that were different I didn't quote to express my own reasons better.
Anyways, this is mafia. Either think I am scum and do not believe or think I am town and believe it. This question is near the exact question mafia is all about: "Who is scum and who isn't?"
Believe me because I am town

So since Archer doesn't want to play ball question to Consp. Is there a reason you called Archer she? I'm just wondering because I notice that MS is mostly male oriented environment and Archer didn't correct you either.

Well, that is an annoying tell I have, I don't know why. Names or avatars that seem a little feminine are rare and immediately give me the thought they are a woman. (No offence towards Lord_Hur, Archer and brokenscraps)

So since Archer doesn't want to play ball question to Consp. Is there a reason you called Archer she? I'm just wondering because I notice that MS is mostly male oriented environment and Archer didn't correct you either.

He called me and brokenscraps (maybe others) "she" too. My guess is his mastery of english isn't perfect.

Nope it isn't sorry. I have some trouble with misinterpretations sometimes so I review them as much as I can to avoid those. This game went very well because I hardly made any mistakes. I am improving

Anyways, really either farside or me is going to be lynched. If neither of us is getting lynched scum gets a free night and tomorrow we will get the same argue again minus player (unlikely, but maybe egg roleblocked/protected). If neither of us is lynched when I am online tomorrow I will vote for myself. If that will be the case I hope you guys are smart enough to lynch farside tomorrow otherwise I will rise up from the undead and haunt you all.

Farside will target Archer all day tomorrow for the crappiest reasons as she was crappy all over him today. If she goes back to AntB, then she gives us basicly a scumclaim.