Mini 1126 - Game over - Was Averagely Suspicious saved?

[bvoigt]

@Hiraki
If you don't answer my questions, I'll be forced to assume that you have no reason to think that pod person is scummy and are voting him anyway in an obvious attempt to bolster the competing wagon. I would hope that anybody watching would arrive at the same conclusion.

That's my conclusion. Time to lynch him!

[RobCapone]

Pod you are a moron cause I followed that quote comment with a wink which means sarcasm
hiraki, read this page, I made good defense statements
using the same speed of a wagon that "cleared" EA (which is the ONLY thing clearing him btw) than my wagon which was faster makes me not scum. If that's not true than Zito needs to retract his "ea is town"

i haven't blindly sheeped any fucking wagon either, I have made cases for my votes, even the lolrandom wagon on EA was based off of something.

Pod, you are trying to make a case on me for nonsense stuff and now you move hiraki off your scum list and he has done nothing to show he isn't scummy.

I already admitted I don't play like you guys on this site. I realize I am scummy by nature but post a case on me that I can defend, and I'll bring it.

Hiraki keeps asking me to re-state my case on him while not even attempting to defend himself, I'm sorry. If you are accused you defend yourself, he hasn't.

He also hasn't explained what the "town motivation" for making a purposefully weak case (this means he admitted he made a weak case ON PURPOSE) towards Bill.

Town doesn't make weak cases on purpose (atleast not where I play) so the fact he did AND doesn't bother to explain why AND has admitted to being to lazy to do something town motivated is more than enough reason he is scum

Not to mention like I said earlier he came out of the blue, 26 minutes after my wagon started on me to put me at L-3. Without commentening on anything that happended during the day, not commenting on zito's list. Just voted and sheeped.

Yeah he accused me of scum earlier in the day phase but he never stated a real reason why, his suspicion on me was driven from the fact that he defended subs when subs was calling him scum.

That would be the same as me defending a lynch of you pod or even Agar, I'd never defend you fuckers in this game.

The fact that Hiraki couldn't even verbalize d1 why he had Bill as his scum read until his "fake case" makes no sense

he could not verbalize why subs was a town read

he asked for people to make a case on subs but refused to make a case when asked


TELL ME TOWN MOTIVATION FOR ANY OF THIS.

if you or anyone can explain logically why a townie would do this, please do so now.

I'm defending myself bro, hiraki ain't doing shit.

Anyone who says my defense this game sucs needs to explain how a person can defend themselves from nothing.

Nobody has made a case against me and if someone has and I missed it please point me to it cause I'll defend myself until I am dead

and no hiraki or whoever said it, my defense has not been "I'm a tracka"

I've made logical arguments all game and you hiraki have made illogical ones.

[RobCapone]

Damn new page, hiraki read last page

all this from iPhone on a shuttle ftl

[RobCapone]

Mental note. When I get to a PC respond to Pod's posts from previous page

[subgenius]

Anyone who says my defense this game sucs needs to explain how a person can defend themselves from nothing.

You just found your own problem right there. You can't defend yourself from nothing, yet you insist on trying to do it anyway. The result is that you look overly defensive, which can be interpreted as foolishness at best and scumminess at worst. I lean towards foolishness, but I can't really blame anyone for thinking it looks scummy.

Also, you're making the Hiraki case look horrible, and that's coming from someone who believes Hiraki is scum.

[RobCapone]

Well I'm not on my 3rd MS account for a reason. My first account I got mod killed like 3 times and yelled at a mod for not knowing the difference between quoting and paraphrasing

2nd account was labled a Vi

this scoount sadly again labled a VI, adjusted and improved my play, than snapped this game when Grey started that crap wagon on me and I got to L-2 in an hour.

It's annoying being called scum as town, especially when it's rediculous reasons or none at all, just "scummy"

checking in, talked to my wife and she packed my laptop (head desk) I thought I left it at home so I'll probably retract my V/LA once I verify it's not been broken

[Barry Allen]

@ Pods - I can see why you may not like how Rob is posting, but given that you replaced Bill I'm not ready to blindly follow your lead. I still haven't shaken the idea that you could be scum, giving us wall-o-post versus the wall-o-missing that Bill gave us previously.

@ Rob - please relax, chill out, calm down...you are hurting yourself with your defensiveness. My personal inclination is to let you go another day to see if you really CAN contribute something from a claimed power role (though I won't be so inclined if you claim to have tracked whoever is hit at night when we go to D3). Not that I agree with everything Subs says, but he is right here - your insistence on defending yourself makes you look foolish at best and scummy at worst. I can lean toward foolishness for today...but your overly defensive, and at times downright insulting manner of posts won't help you as we move into the next day.

[RobCapone]

first

Mod I will retract my V/LA because my wife did pack my laptop and because I have my phone, I should still be able to check in daily

Noted.

now to Pod's first post

@Hiraki
So you've concluded that Bill replaced himself, and you have no theories about why or how it might be worth thinking about? That seems extremely implausible to me.
For the record, the idea of Bill replacing himself seems absurd to me, but if it were proven to be true, I'd want him lynched asap.

Do you have any reasoning why someone would randomly start an account in Feb. and join this game, randomly?
Not to mention, he replaced. Do you see newbies replace? How often do alts. replace?
Thinking about it more, I do believe you make a valid point. I was thinking of a different reason for secrecy, but I'm becoming ever so increasingly doubtful of it.

Unvote, Vote: Pod

wow. you're scum. i can't wait to read the second half of the thread. which i will be doing after reading all recent posts.

I agree Hiraki is scum and this quote while isn't a scum tell, added to the other things he has done, he doesn't look good with that vote. But I suspect you are probably scum too pod but that is for another day.

I suck at changing my meta, I'm obvious town. So deal with it.

this is pathetic. let me try:
"i am obvious town, screw you."
i'm now confirmed town as well by your logic.

I agree not my finest work, but for those who believe in meta it will be obvious, since nobody knows who you are really pod, you have no meta to compare so how are you confirmed town using my logic? maybe if you point me to your main account and let us look over your meta and I'll decide what I think, but until than how the hell can you make such a statement.

I get Agar doesn't believe in meta and not all of us are super cool enough to have 45+ games on site and I don't have the time nor energey to go through and verify if he has actually never used meta in any of these games, I find it highly unlikely but could be true so whatev.

Btw if speed of wagons really mean anything

which it really doesn't.

But Zito has confirmed EA as town because of the speed of his wagon and the rest of town has essentially agreed, and don't forget Agar has invoked his superior knowledge of his 45+ games on site to say that speedy wagons never happen on scum, so since 2 FAR SUPERIOR players than you Mr. I am an alt but won't tell anyone, your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to this argument.

pod and hiraki should be confirmed scum based on that, cause those wagons are deadlocked right now.

which is false.

Not according to Zito and Agar's theory of speedy wagons, if speedy wagon = town than slow wagon = more than likely scum (although safe to say not 100% guaranteed either way)

And pod looks especially bad for essentially only having Zito and EA as his town reads.

town can vote town. do you think everyone on the greyice wagon was scum?

where did the greyice wagon come from? I am saying you replace in and put Zito and EA as confirmed town, just like everyone else has. EA is only town on every one's list because ofthe "speed of a wagon" theory which you disagree with so if you disagree with that theory, why is EA town to you?

I don't really buy the case on Rob.

you didn't read the case on rob, then.

off to read this thread, starting from the top of page 21.

[/quote]

can you point me to the case on me please?

[Hiraki]

Missed that one, I'm going to ignore Rob for now because I'm tired.

I was thinking of a town motivation to try and clear his role. I mean he was playing a meh game until then.

Fuck it, I'm going to talk about Rob for two seconds.

1) I never asked you to restate a case on you more than once. AKA: Whenever I have asked you for one, you supplied it, and I tried to talk about it.

2) I've already told you about my Bill case reasoning, but it seems you've missed it or something.

3) I really don't care how fast your wagon gained speed. Using that as a defense is sighful to me.

4) Where is this crap about Subs? I have never seen you once talk about him.

tl;dr: Rob still annoys me.

[bvoigt]

@Barry: Were you writing #981 when sub posted #980?

Since we're talking about not answering questions, when were you planning on getting to this?

Hey Barry, I think you missed this.

[subgenius]

Missed that one, I'm going to ignore Rob for now because I'm tired.

I was thinking of a town motivation to try and clear his role. I mean he was playing a meh game until then.

I guess you missed this one too, even though it was in the same post:

Also, do you think pod person is a gimmick, or do you still think he is Bill in disguise? If he is a gimmick, why do you find this to be scummy?

Why is your vote on pod person?

[Hiraki]

Pressure. I answered the other one somewhere. I'm still sure that it's Bill though.

[RobCapone]

rob's 502 is a perfect example of why he's scum.

You advocate always lynching a claimed power role day 1?
Learn better theory

warning: theory discussion, skip if not interested
theory says that scum can claim a power role and then claim to be roleblocked every night following. it puts town in a tough situation: if the player is town, they're outed and most likely useless (likely to either bite a nightkill or a roleblock), and if they're scum, their claim will make town more hesitant to lynch them. plus they can just claim the roleblock every night following without raising eyebrows for at least a couple of days.
i personally believe that a claim should not have any impact on a player's perception of another player unless the claim is provable (for example, a vigilante; but that can also be a serial killer claiming vig.)
end theory discussion

But i didn't claim roleblocked did I? no i claimed I performed my track, and while it looks bad that the person I tracked did die, I assure you that was just coincidence. (yeah I know I can't prove it unless I quote my PM from the mod and get mod-killed but been there done that)

yeah I don't want town to vote me but I am trying to point out your behavior over the last 2 or 3 pages is sketchy

the phrasing here is how a scum would say this, not a townie. "i don't want town to vote me" because "i'm scum" is what he means here.

so are you saying town would say "vote me"? are you really going to criticise the way a statement is worded and try and twist that into "that is how scum would word it"? cause that is horseshit. I don't want to be lynched so I don't want town to vote me, scum is going to vote me cause they want the tracker dead. I am sorry you disagree with the wording of my statement but the fact you are trying to twist it into something scummy earns you scum points.

I read Barry, reading bill now. Ill say that so far ash is spot on about Barry

Vote:Barry Allen

Pie is OK - but not cake.....the cake is a lie...

this is actually an awfully good case for penpen-scum.
subgenius has gradually found his way off my scumlist over the course of the past few pages. i read his posts and i think "that's a good catch" or "like that post". can't really cite a specific post but he's probably not scum if my list of suspects is any testimony to that.
rob 607 - has barely mentioned grey all game, and as soon as a wagon forms, rob jumps right on the first chance he gets. tell me the town motivation. i don't see it.

1. this quote makes a good case for penen? Seriously? I don't see it.
2. you reason why subs is now more town makes no sense to me either, can you point to specific posts subs made that make you feel he is more town?
3. OMFG are you kidding me? everyone read 607 again - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p2818215

I was 2nd on the wagon after pointing out LIES that GreyIce said. he claimed to start all 3 wagons which was a lie. I didn't mention Ice much cause he wasn't my suspect, at that point iirc, Subs and Hiraki were my scum reads, DEFINITLY Hiraki. That added with all of his bandwagon hopping and refusal to explain why he lied was reason I continued to push his lynch and others joined in. So this point towards me is 100% mis-rep and gives you even more scum points.

Dude, lynch chaining?
That a scum tactic through and through. "Well look at these two people! If one of them is town, the other MUST be scum! So we should lynch one to see if they're scum, then lynch the other!"

quoted for truth.

not really, I have seen town do this all the time, but humor me on this for a second. is there a difference between the following

A. if player is A is town than the other must be scum

B. if player A is scum than the other must be scum

Pen please answer this one ASAP

Vote: Papa Zito

For convincing me to vote to lynch a townie.

welcome back to the scumlist. you hammered of your own will, with no warning. probably to set up this exact vote.

I agree with this, the fact he blames zito is crap

Anyway, on GreyIce obvious suspect seems to be PenPen for dropping the hammer.

And dropping the hammer is suspicious how?

Thats why i said it was obvious. Maybe too obvious. But surely the last person to vote has to be a bit suspect? If I were scum, i know i would be quite keen to make sure a townie was lynched ASAP.
You don't find it suspicious then?

hammering is not, never has been, and never will be a scumtell. quickhammering on the other hand...
okay it's been bugging me now. barry, either use vote tags or type the vote up itself. seeing "vote: vote: <player>" so many times is just annoying.

would it shock you to know I have quick hammered as town? everything that is considered a scum tell I can probably post a link to a game on site where I have done as town, relying on pre-fab scumtells is why town loses.

Another reason to blame him, only scum purposely messes up quotes;)

it sounds like you're using this as a serious reason to vote him. why would town actually think this is legit? they wouldn't.

as i said earlier, I used the wink, which means sarcasm. Hiraki has been on my scumdar since d1 and I can assure you my case doesn't rest on him messing up a quote. but this is yet another mis-rep and an attempt at making a sarcastic comment into something scummy on me, ding ding, more scum points to you.

hmm... i want to take this time to post something that came to mind just now.
let's compare/contrast the two replacees on super-lurker slots.
bvoigt is one of the few people who actually sounds like he believes every word he says... he's town.
mozamis, on the other hand, hasn't done anything to improve the hayker slot. posting more, yes. but there's so many logical leaps and stretches that it's hard to take anything he's posting seriously. it looks like fake-scumhunting, and i've never seen town that fake-scumhunts.

bvoight is auto town cause he sounds like hebelieves everything he says? umm.. ok?

the poing about mozamis, idk I haven't paid as much attention to him cause others have played scummier but i will re-read his iso during the next night phase.

Look at that wagon D1. They don't build that fast on scum, almost ever. Wagons on scum take time to get up to speed.

they can and have. bad.

so you disagree with Zito and Agar? you best be pointing a link to a back up your claim

Mozami - Stop with the BS reads, start posting real suspicions or die. Die quickly, too.

i endorse the above statement. but why didn't you vote mozamis?

do you feel someone posting BS reads deserves a vote? if that is a yes than you deserve even more votes with your BS reads.

1039 is a good example of scum paranoia.

god I know sarcasm doesn't translate onto the internet well but if you really didn't get the sarcasm in that comment, than you are dense.

and that's it. got a bit lazy with the second half oh well it wasn't much of importance anyways.
i've read the entire thread now but am confused as to why he's being voted. frankly the only scummy thing i've seen is his terrible reason for voting me, but that was post-hiraki wagon forming, so i must not get it.
or maybe because i started skimming some near the end. still.
i didn't see any particularly town things either though so.

scum (ranked):
rob
agar
mozamis
barry

town:
zito
erratus
bvoigt
subgenius

that one loner in the null group:
hiraki

vote: rob

like already asked, please be pointing out how you go from Hiraki is scum to null when he doesn't even post. His silence between your 2 posts makes him null?

I R Confusded

[RobCapone]

ebwop - son of a bitch a quote fail big time. the entire thing should not be in quotes

Fixed.

[RobCapone]

Missed that one, I'm going to ignore Rob for now because I'm tired.

I was thinking of a town motivation to try and clear his role. I mean he was playing a meh game until then.

Fuck it, I'm going to talk about Rob for two seconds.

1) I never asked you to restate a case on you more than once. AKA: Whenever I have asked you for one, you supplied it, and I tried to talk about it.

2) I've already told you about my Bill case reasoning, but it seems you've missed it or something.

3) I really don't care how fast your wagon gained speed. Using that as a defense is sighful to me.

4) Where is this crap about Subs? I have never seen you once talk about him.

tl;dr: Rob still annoys me.

1. no chance i have a time to go back, that was off memory so if I was wrong I apolgize but i coud have sworn you mentioned me making a case 3 times.
2. maybe I did, i''l find it one day, althouh I still can't see town motivation for it
3. but the speed case is what is being used by others to put EA as town, so it does matter
4. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2805079 (bottom of page) I quote a bunch of comments subs makes that I find particularly scummy about his play.

I have had a long day and this game is just draining me even more,

God night.

[subgenius]

Pressure. I answered the other one somewhere. I'm still sure that it's Bill though.

If you started pressing Pod even a little bit, I might take this pressure claim more seriously.

Who's on your scum list right now? Please provide reasons for each.

[Papa Zito]

This game.

I mean, Day 2, page 43. Mini Normal.

So I have pretty major problems with AGar's entrance to the game, and I'm not super jazzed about pod's either. AGar's basically plonked his vote on Hiraki and then just sat there waiting for the guy to be lynched. pod's done a pretty exhaustive survey of the game and come up with reads buuuuut where's the beef?

I want mozamis very dead also why do I never get to be vig.

Not voting:

pod person

, Barry Allen, mozamis

What is this travesty.

I'm kinda getting into that mode where I just want things to be over. I don't mind a Hiraki lynch that much if I have to compromise here.

[subgenius]

I agree.
Hiraki and Barry are at the top of my list, but at this point I'm willing to compromise on some people at this point.

Here's my list:
1)Hiraki-Reasons should be clear
2)Barry-Case has been made (the fact that he still isn't voting only adds to my suspicion of him)
3)Agar-Due to wikki/penpen wackiness. I lean towards attributing their actions to VI rather than scumminess, but I'd be willing to lynch to find out.
4)Mozamis-See above
5)Bvoigt-I'm feeling better about Bvoigt lately. He's moved away from picking on lurkers and VI's. I still hate how he suggested lynching penpen D1.
6)Rob-I'm not a huge Rob fan, and I'm by no means sure about his claim, but I feel more comfortable keeping him around one more day.
7)Pod person-I never really understood the case on Bill, and I think Pod has been active enough that it would be worthwhile to observe him for one more day.
8)EA-Hasn't been as active today, but I haven't seen much not to like about him. To be honest, I have a completely baseless hunch that he might be scum, but I don't trust hunches if I can't find anything to back them up.
9)Zito-Seems pretty town to me, and I happen to believe in the town tell from earlier in the day.
10)Subgenius-I dunno, I just trust him for some reason.

I could probably bring myself to vote for anyone 4 or above. Needless to say, this list is subject to change with or without notice.

[mozamis]

Pressure. I answered the other one somewhere. I'm still sure that it's Bill though.

what i don't understand is why you are voting for pod when you seem convinced Rob is scum?

[Hiraki]

Pressure. I answered the other one somewhere. I'm still sure that it's Bill though.

what i don't understand is why you are voting for pod when you seem convinced Rob is scum?

Head Desk.

Rob:
3) Others do not equate to me.

4) You're bringing stuff from Page 10 up? Seriously?

[RobCapone]

You said you never saw me talk about subs, I'm showing you that I did. Who cares if it is page 10 if it proves your statement as false.

I realize others don't equate to you, do you find EA town? If so for what reason?

[AGar]

Misrep much? Cause that's not what I'm saying.

Pod asked why I'm not dead yet, when you have a PR claim you have to choose do I beleive him or not

if you do - move on

if you don't than you have 2 choices

Lynch me or let the "real" pr figure it out

Town chose to let the "real PR" figure me out

if you don't want to wait, like I said lynch me but I'm honestly telling you the truth that my claim is real. If I could prove it somehow I would.

So again if you want to lynch me, do it and live with the consequences or let me do my job the best I can.

Speed of a wagon question = town clarification question

EA got to 4 votes in an hour and a half and got to L-2 in 2 hours and 52 minutes - so this makes him town according to Zito.

I got to 4 votes in 26 minutes and L-2 in an hour and 9 minutes - but I am scum yet my wagon was faster than EA's

can somebody please clarify the whole speed of a wagon theory to me because this post by AGAR who by his own admission has SO MANY GAMES ON THIS SITE SO HE MUST BE RIGHT seems to make sense for EA but not for me and I want to know why

I think you're one of the few getting confused here.

well yeah when someone can declare EA as town for no reason other than the speed of his d1 wagon, and than gets mad when people vote him, that is confusing.

speed of a wagon means jack shit. I have seen scum wagons develop fast just like town wagons.

And I've seen scum action A happen just as many times as town action A.

I have 45+ games onsite.
You don't.

I'm pulling an experience card here. Wagons like that don't just "happen" on scum.

Tell me, do you have a legitimate reason for suspecting EA?

If speed of a wagon clears EA than it motherfucking clears me because my wagon was faster and I got to L-2 super fast which is why I felt the need to claim.

EA's wagon - Out of RVS.
Your wagon - Based on actual gameplay.

"Wagons like that" = fast wagons out of nowhere.

Again, why are you freaking out, exactly? You're going on like you're at L-1.

if rob is scum, he's making a pretty damn good defence. I don't really see why we are getting so worked up about rob.

Hi Rob-buddy.

Mozami - Stop with the BS reads, start posting real suspicions or die. Die quickly, too.

i endorse the above statement. but why didn't you vote mozamis?

Hiraki's more blatant scum than Rob.

Aaaand now Rob's trying to deflect suspicion. [sarcasm]shocker[/sarcasm]

Not according to Zito and Agar's theory of speedy wagons, if speedy wagon = town than slow wagon = more than likely scum

(although safe to say not 100% guaranteed either way)

Oh wow, you can answer your own questions too! Hooray!

TL;DR: Hiraki needs to die, but Rob is also worthy of roping and is a fine compromise if need be. But I don't think it needs to be at this point.

[AGar]

EBWOP:

Response to pod should say 'Hiraki's more blatant scum.'

[Barry Allen]

@Barry: Were you writing #981 when sub posted #980?

Since we're talking about not answering questions, when were you planning on getting to this?

Hey Barry, I think you missed this.

I did miss that question - but the question makes no sense, considering I

quoted sub's post 980 in my post 981

, and my post was made nearly an hour later. I would have posted my questions for Pods anyway...and the fact that subs

didn't

have questions struck me as odd.

I did think making fun of pods "suspicion" of our GM was a good first take to point out why I don't take Pods very seriously - after all Pods took the spot of someone I've suspected of being scum for some time.

@ subs - You're right, I'm not voting yet. I am deciding between placing my vote back on Pods McQuill or to put that vote elsewhere. My strong lean is to vote Pods McQuill - I've FoS'd that spot on the roster for some time now. But, I'm not going to let your dim view of me change how I post or vote. You DO annoy me - but that does not equate to your being scum. My strongest suspicion right now is still Bill...I mean Pods.

[RobCapone]

So hop of the fence and vote him.

I have a question, when did compromise votes become all the rage?

Just this page 2 people say they would compromise. Barry seems willing to compromise his vote too.