A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Raivann]

It seems that no matter what I say, you invariably consider it scummy, and never even consider that you could be wrong. And that, of course, is not pro-town play.

You've been doing this to me all game. Even after Benmage gave me a 1 day pass so that other players could share some time in the spotlight, like yourself.

[Bunnylover]

Okay I had to LOOK!

Wouldn't Benmage have been the obv. player to watch last night?

I never even considered targeting him.

Last night I considered what kind of players I would be targeting. Would it be the townish ones, or the scummy ones, or the null reads? I decided against targeting a townish player, since the most likely outcome would be, except for learning nothing at all,

was that the player had been killed and I would be no wiser.

YOU wouLD'vE caught scum!!

Yeah I think Petyr would be scum in this game.

Watched Kast???

Feysal didn't say he knew who investigated who. He doesn't get the name so basically he a less powered watcher.
Practically I can't see why a role like this would exist =/.

@LMP: I finally agree with you.

Feysal claim is a claim anyone can come up with. Its not something that can be provable.
"Oh this person had one person who visited them. Oh no one claiming to visit them? Then it must be scum who visited them."
Because you don't learn of who visited them, the information that you receive is practically nothing.
Although he did say that the person he watched/voyeur didn't get visited which is a greater risk as someone could counter claim him but would be outting their PR. The person he picked, I didn't even know was in the game lol.
I'm questioning if I should move my vote from Zdenek who I believe is scum to Feysal who has claimed a role that scum can easily fake claim.

@Raivann: Just because Benmage said we can not be lynched, does not mean we can not be attacked.

[Magua]

Your quick three-page flavor bible is http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Storm_of_Swords

Petyr is an interesting claim. On the face of it, flavorwise, it would seem best suited to a third party (Petyr both helps the Lannisters, by setting up the alliance with Tyrell that allows them to repel Stannis' attack on King's Landing, and hurts them by poisoning Jefferey and having Lysa Arrys blame the Lannisters for Jon Arrys' death.) But no third party in their right minds would ever make this claim. Scum would claim it if it was their fakeclaim.

Looking at the zoraster votes isn't going to be conclusive, since if Feysal is scum, he'd have every reason to be voting zoraster (who could not be a buddy) regardless.

All that being said, the claim doesn't really change anything for me. I still would prefer to lynch Twilight Sparkle, and I will still lynch Feysal if it's that or no-lynch.

[Raivann]

The soothing calmness of a Magua post.

Unvote, Vote: Twilight Sparkle

Aahhh, that's better.

[Benmage]

Petyr also has Sansa escape.

Has an ever loving love of Catelyn Stark.

Will in the next book:

Kills Cat's sister.
And (theory) Put Sansa stark with an Eyrie Noble to unite the Eyrie and the North.

It seems farfetched to see him Lannister aligned....

But than again Tyrion was. And doesn't Tyrion kill Twyin in this one?

Damn u flavor!

[Twilight Sparkle]

I guess the table of contents didn't quite cut it. Magua, we have some outstanding points we'd like you to address.

As for the Feysal claim, we're torn. Technically, it's a very safe claim for scum to make. Voyeur is tailor-made to draw out townclaims (I got a positive result on X...hey town PR, claim! Oh, no town PR claiming? Must've been a scum RB! Do I know who it was? Fuck no!), difficult to confirm absence of, and not terribly useful.

Still, his claim hits all of the right notes in terms of sincerity. It has a definite smell of legitimacy to it. Sadly, deadline is close enough that we probably can't do any better, barring a mass vote exodus to zdenek. At least we lose very little if Feysal is telling the truth - Voyeur is a pretty useless role.

P.EDIT: Raivann, I'll just requote this:

Raivann, anything to say about the Zdenek case? You seem awfully happy to sit on your unlynchable laurels without contributing. “Still happy with my Twilight vote” isn’t going to cut it. We’ve got a little less than four days until deadline. I’m not going to accept dull, “lol sheep end day without saying anything.”

-hito

[Raivann]

Looking at the zoraster votes isn't going to be conclusive, since if Feysal is scum, he'd have every reason to be voting zoraster (who could not be a buddy) regardless.

But if Feysal was town Petyr and knew zoraster was lying about LL's identity, he would have immediately voted him,no?

[Raivann]

TS- Zdenek is in one of my top 5 town reads atm.
I'm more interested in things like DTMaster, TS, BL, Nexus, and yes still Thor. Shouldn't he have at least put a vote down by now?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Still, his claim hits all of the right notes in terms of sincerity. It has a definite smell of legitimacy to it. Sadly, deadline is close enough that we probably can't do any better, barring a mass vote exodus to zdenek. At least we lose very little if Feysal is telling the truth - Voyeur is a pretty useless role.
-hito

Actually I think a quick move over to Twilight Sparkle is in order here ...

UNVOTE: Feysal
VOTE: Twilight Sparkle

[Benmage]

Oh right I was planning on rocking Thor a new one...

[Twilight Sparkle]

To be fair, the current Thor wagon is 100% town . If you think it can be done in 48 hours I'm up for it, but I don't think the odds are good (or to be more precise, I think the only way the wagon is going to get the needed momentum is if Thor is actually town and scum have no reservations voting for him.)

MoI: What do you think of Magua and Raivann's recent votes for us?

-hito

[Benmage]

Yeah well I only read point 1 of said wall.

[xvart]

Also, what do you mean by “fishing out relations with other players"?

What I mean is people fishing out how related they are to another person, and what sort of momentum would swing towards them given the relationship they have. It is subtle, but could give scum a notion as to what a safer play would be.

This is to Setael, regarding Bunnylover. You clearly know that BL is on the “no-lynch" list. But then, what of your previous quotes? Nitpicking trivial stuff without voting? Do you think Setael should be voting Bunnylover right now?

I really could care less who is on the holy "no-lynch list". I really didn't pay too much attention to who was actually on the list other than other than ask why Benmage would give someone a pass one day to open them up for fair game the next day. And frankly, I don't like the looming threat of all that is holy Benmage declaring who we can and cannot lynch each and every day. But back to your point, I think your missing the entire point is that Setael came out with all this junk about Bunnylover that could hardly be considered a case or even a merit to lynch. It was basically nonsensical posting about being a VI or not being a VI and asking for an opinion on what the difference is between a new player and a VI. Perhaps I went overboard in saying "why aren't you voting" but I guess I was trying to flush out if it was a weak attack or just fluff posting.

Petyr should be third party. Feysal sounds sincere enough though. Did Feysal switch his vote promptly after zorasters fakeclaim saying LL was Petyr?

ITT Raivann lurks in the shadows waiting for the heat to die down but pops in to suggest that Petyr is third party yet his post is sincere... And shows he isn't reading even the same page that he is posting on.

Like almost to the T.

Really...To A T.??? What do you disagree with?

I would swap Satael and danakillsu and move Zednek down a notch. But all the names I agree with on being in lynchworthy range.

I'm still fine with a Feysal lynch. For the record, Faraday and Seacore actually provided full fake claims in CoK right down to the italic/bold tags in the QT with whatever you asked for for the fake names they provided. I wouldn't even be surprised if Feysal is actually a scum watcher but downgraded his ability so he wouldn't have to generate a fake result. Everyone is screaming (under the false impression that he was a watcher) "WHY DIDN"T YOU TARGET BENMAGE" when the real question should have been why he didn't target hascow.

[xvart]

Forgot to copy this from another tab:

Did you not understand my point? Please explain what about it you find weak and forced. And the "follow up" discussion was an attempt to get a better read on whether she's faking it or not. Your "while not voting" thrown in there is sheeping MoI's argument that was terrible in the first place. In what alternate universe would it make ANY sense for me to be voting BL right now instead of Feysal?

Because it makes no sense. You ISOed her and then went on and on about "why is she playing mafia at all?" There was no point to your observations and then go on to question her about VI vs. new player. You said you were going to ISO bunnylover and you came back with only a slew of quotes where she suggested she wasn't a good player.

[Magua]

Petyr also has Sansa escape.

Has an ever loving love of Catelyn Stark.

Will in the next book:

Kills Cat's sister.
And (theory) Put Sansa stark with an Eyrie Noble to unite the Eyrie and the North.

That occurs in this book, not the next one. I even put it in my post (not the Sansa thing, but the Lysa thing).

To people in general: In case you're not familiar with the flavor, in the link I gave last post, search for "Littlefinger," the common name of Petyr Baelish.

That said, for those trundling down the path of "By flavor, Petyr is anti-Lannister, and so Feysal is claiming scum," considering that Clash of Kings had mod-provided safeclaims, is it your opinion that...
1) They don't this game,
2) Feysal has one and is ignoring it,
3) Feysal's fakeclaim really, really sucks.

Just curious.

But than again Tyrion was. And doesn't Tyrion kill Twyin in this one?

Yes.

I had some reservations with your post - the unpushed vote that sat alone on V/LA Nexus seem pretty much guaranteed not to go anywhere. I got the vibe that, “I expect the other scum to jump off of Twilight, and I want to be first. But I guess I can slide back on if needed." Lo and behold, you’re back - but why, exactly?

I wanted to see what would happen, specifically whether anyone would complain about it. Nothing did, which was less than useful. I gave it a few days, and then put it back as the deadline approached.

My reason for putting it back on you is the same as it's ever been: you're the one I most want to lynch.

As well, there’s a giant elephant in the room with “tying it to other players" - the Feysal case. You have yet to say what you think of it (you said you didn’t understand it, it was clarified, and you subsequently fell silent.) This would seem to be right up your alley, and yet you’re not voting or nominating Feysal - instead, you’re both voting AND nominating us.

I find Feysal triggers all of my scum-buttons in general: he vacillates, he fence-sits, he posts pro's and con's of everything put before him. I thought he was scum in Consulmaker II, but he wasn't. He's just an incredibly cautious player. I go over this briefly in post #1167. I can *easily* see Feysal-town add "And diddin." into a post.

So most of the items that LMP calls him on are null tells for me, and I have a town read on Feysal. Mentioned in post #1321.

Your hop back on to us seems, to put it charitably, insincere. You don’t think Zdenek is scum. Swell. Why do you think we’re scum? And why isn’t Feysal?

Do you believe my reasons for starting your wagon were sincere?

Alternative question: What do you see as the scum motivation?

Would you be willing to lynch Nexus?

P-edit:

Everyone is screaming (under the false impression that he was a watcher) "WHY DIDN"T YOU TARGET BENMAGE" when the real question should have been why he didn't target hascow.

A million times, this.

[Raivann]

I really could care less who is on the holy "no-lynch list". I really didn't pay too much attention to who was actually on the list other than other than ask why Benmage would give someone a pass one day to open them up for fair game the next day. And frankly, I don't like the looming threat of all that is holy Benmage declaring who we can and cannot lynch each and every day. But back to your point, I think your missing the entire point is that Setael came out with all this junk about Bunnylover that could hardly be considered a case or even a merit to lynch. It was basically nonsensical posting about being a VI or not being a VI and asking for an opinion on what the difference is between a new player and a VI. Perhaps I went overboard in saying "why aren't you voting" but I guess I was trying to flush out if it was a weak attack or just fluff posting.

Petyr should be third party. Feysal sounds sincere enough though. Did Feysal switch his vote promptly after zorasters fakeclaim saying LL was Petyr?

ITT Raivann lurks in the shadows waiting for the heat to die down but pops in to suggest that Petyr is third party yet his post is sincere... And shows he isn't reading even the same page that he is posting on.

I was trying to figure out the claim, scumbag.
I wasn't waiting and lurking in shadows either, my other Mafia game was finishing up last couple days.
Don't be such a crybaby about the "No-Lynch List". It's really quite nice We get roasted onions, dripped in gravy ,boiled goose eggs, rack-of-lamb baked in garlic and herbs, garnished with mint and your pick of sweet Dornish summerwines.

[Raivann]

@Magua-

Looking at the zoraster votes isn't going to be conclusive, since if Feysal is scum, he'd have every reason to be voting zoraster (who could not be a buddy) regardless.

But if Feysal was town Petyr and knew zoraster was lying about LL's identity, he would have immediately voted him,no?

[Raivann]

...Raivann lurks in the shadows waiting...

Then.... Rawr!!!!
Look out kiddies!!

[Magua]

Looking at the zoraster votes isn't going to be conclusive, since if Feysal is scum, he'd have every reason to be voting zoraster (who could not be a buddy) regardless.

But if Feysal was town Petyr and knew zoraster was lying about LL's identity, he would have immediately voted him,no?

And if he's scum Petyr then he would...?

[Benmage]

Could've feared a role cop outing and effing him and went with his normal iffy claim.

Idno.

Kinda late to switch steam. Role aint the strongest ...I doubt a plausible switch at this hour.

[Twilight Sparkle]

I'm more interested in things like DTMaster, TS, BL, Nexus, and yes still Thor.

Do you have anything of value - anything at all - to say about anyone on this list? Why are we your top scumread? What do you have against Nexus and BL? Why would you vote Feysal just because BL "won't"? Why switch off?

My reason for putting it back on you is the same as it's ever been: you're the one I most want to lynch.

Why?

Your hop back on to us seems, to put it charitably, insincere. You don’t think Zdenek is scum. Swell. Why do you think we’re scum? And why isn’t Feysal?

Do you believe my reasons for starting your wagon were sincere?

Your first vote felt sincere. This one did not.

Alternative question: What do you see as the scum motivation?

Aside from the simple benefit of getting a mislynch? You could be scum with Feysal trying to protect him. You could be trying to buddy to Feysal-town hoping a Rolecop confirms him as Petyr. You could just be opposing a Feysal mislynch because you think it's going through and you want towncred. Plenty of reasons, in short.

Would you be willing to lynch Nexus?

? You mean, now? If we're throwing a hail mary I'd prefer Thor or Raivann.

P-edit:

Everyone is screaming (under the false impression that he was a watcher) "WHY DIDN"T YOU TARGET BENMAGE" when the real question should have been why he didn't target hascow.

A million times, this.

Why? A voyeur wouldn't want to target a likely nk...

Also, Mina and I briefly chatted about the Feysal claim before that post but she forgot/neglected to mention the on-demand scum fakeclaims in ACoK. With that level of on-demand customization, a believable fakeclaim means less than in most games. I'd still rather we lynch Zdenek, but it removes some of my unease at the Feysal wagon.

-hito

[Raivann]

Magua's right, Feysal is town.

It's not too late.

[Magua]

My reason for putting it back on you is the same as it's ever been: you're the one I most want to lynch.

I think you're scum and I want you lynched. I think you played a subpar game D1, a subpar game D2 until it looked like you were going to get lynched for it, then busted out the Zdenek case. Although I appreciate the upswing in activity, I still think you're scum.

Alternative question: What do you see as the scum motivation?

Aside from the simple benefit of getting a mislynch? You could be scum with Feysal trying to protect him. You could be trying to buddy to Feysal-town hoping a Rolecop confirms him as Petyr. You could just be opposing a Feysal mislynch because you think it's going through and you want towncred. Plenty of reasons, in short.

The question was, "What do you see as the scum motivation of voting you after voting Nexus?" After all, if, FYPOV, you're town, and I'm scum, what did I gain if I'm moving off of your (FYPOV town) lynch to Nexus'?

Your quote, "I expect the other scum to jump off of Twilight, and I want to be first. But I guess I can slide back on if needed." shows that you think there are/were other scum on your wagon. Looking back, your main attacks have been Zdenek, MagnaofIllusion, and I, all of whom were voting for you today, and Thor, who was not.

Do you think Feysal is town?

Do you think Nexus is town?

P-edit:

Everyone is screaming (under the false impression that he was a watcher) "WHY DIDN"T YOU TARGET BENMAGE" when the real question should have been why he didn't target hascow.

A million times, this.

Why? A voyeur wouldn't want to target a likely nk...

I will re-edit with the implied part put in italics

Everyone

who thought Feysal was a watcher and not a voyeur

is screaming (under the false impression that he was a watcher) "WHY DIDN"T YOU TARGET BENMAGE" when the real question should have been why he didn't target hascow.

[Magua]

Could've feared a role cop outing and effing him and went with his normal iffy claim.

Idno.

Kinda late to switch steam. Role aint the strongest ...I doubt a plausible switch at this hour.

This seems like weak posting coming from you, Benmage.

Do you think Feysal is scum?

[hasdgfas]

voyeur

*searches for prior usage*