A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Twilight Sparkle]

I think you're scum and I want you lynched. I think you played a subpar game D1, a subpar game D2 until it looked like you were going to get lynched for it, then busted out the Zdenek case. Although I appreciate the upswing in activity, I still think you're scum.

Okay. Let's recap:

Magua thinks we're scum primarily because a Mina/Sotty/hito hydra should be rocking harder. Mina was on vacation, Sotty was sick, I was busy. Still, we couldn't ask you to clear on our word alone.

The "until it looked like you were going to get lynched for it" is silly. The wagon on us started more or less immediately when D2 did. Yes, our upswing in activity didn't come until after our wagon, but that's not a correlation - that's just because pretty much all of D2 was post-sparkle wagon.

Mina returns, Sotty heals, I get some free time. We start to up our game, get more communication, write some posts. We pick our top scumread and post our thoughts.

You unvote, because it's what you wanted to see from us. We think, hey, great. But your Nexus vote raised some eyebrows, and I said to Mina (paraphrasing) - "Yeah, I'm glad he unvoted, but it kinda looks like he's slinking off our wagon because he thinks it's gonna deflate, while keeping his foot in the door."

Now you're back and playing coy as to why.

You first voted us because "It's D2. Tell me who they think the scum are." Are you still having trouble? Do you think we are lurking *now*? Or is your argument that we had a sub-par D1 so we are now a locked in lynch; with a black mark that can never be expunged?

More importantly, you were happy enough with the Zdenek case when you unvoted. When you revoted, you mentioned that "after ruminations" you no longer thought Zdenek was scum. Guess what - you didn't think Zdenek was scum

when you unvoted.

That has nothing to do with anything. You said nothing about why you no longer thought the Zdenek case is what you were looking for - only that it didn't convince you.

Magua, you think we are scum. Why?

The question was, "What do you see as the scum motivation of voting you after voting Nexus?" After all, if, FYPOV, you're town, and I'm scum, what did I gain if I'm moving off of your (FYPOV town) lynch to Nexus'?

Here's the scum motivation. You voted for someone who was on V/LA with no reasoning, and proceeded to lurk for four days. That's a terrible, godawful shit wagon that isn't going to go anywhere. Now it's deadline and hey,

of course

you've gotta get off the Nexus wagon - it didn't go anywhere! Gives you freedom to get back on Twilight wagon if it's in vogue and go elsewhere if it's not.

Do you think Feysal is town?

Brain says null-leaning-scum with that Voyeur claim, heart says town. Haven't gotten a chance to speak with Sotty since Feysal claimed.

Do you think Nexus is town?

Weak town. I like what he's posted, but with his V/LA he hasn't posted much. So he's townish for now, but it's a townread on little enough evidence that a couple of bad posts could totally change my view on him.

-hito

[Nexus]

Re: The fakeclaim.

I think it's suspicious that now both Zoraster and Feysal have used Littlefinger in their claim. I can't see Littlefinger being Lannister aligned, but to be fair, that's mod WIFOM. More suspicious about the two different people using Littlefinger in their claim.

Twilight:"At least we lose very little if Feysal is telling the truth - Voyeur is a pretty useless role." That's a pretty scummy sentence. Any town PR is valuable. I still don't believe Feysal is telling the truth, but just highlighting this attitude.

[Twilight Sparkle]

Twilight:"At least we lose very little if Feysal is telling the truth - Voyeur is a pretty useless role." That's a pretty scummy sentence. Any town PR is valuable. I still don't believe Feysal is telling the truth, but just highlighting this attitude.

Actually, the important thing is that any

townie

is valuable. Feysal is barely even a PR. Obviously, we lose the standard loss of a mislynch - but we're for sure town-aligned, so any gamble on Feysal is better than that. That any lynch on a townie is bad goes without saying. What we're saying is that a Feysal lynch, if he's telling the truth, is not significantly

worse

than a VT lynch. Certainly not enough for us to consider self-voting, and we've long since been pushing the third biggest wagon.

-hito

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 2.22

Twilight Sparkle (4) Zdenek, Magua, Raivann, MagnaofIllusion
Bunnylover (1) Ghostlin
Ghostlin (1) DTMaster
Thor665 (2) Shadow1psc, hasdgfas

Feysal (6) LynchMePls, Setael, Locke Lamora, Kast, xvart, Nexus

Zdenek (5) Twilight Sparkle, Bunnylover, Feysal, Danakillsu, DrippingGoofball


Not voting (2) Thor665, Benmage

With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. No majority at deadline and there'll be no lynch.

Envoy to the Eyrie

[/u]

Bunnylover (9) MagnaofIllusion, LynchMePls, Nexus, hasdgfas, Setael, Locke Lamora, Kast, Danakillsu, xvart

Raivann (3) Bunnylover, Ghostlin, Feysal
Thor665 (4) Zdenek, Benmage, Twilight Sparkle, DrippingGoofball
Nexus (1) Raivann,
xvart (1) DTMaster
Twilight Sparkle (1) Magua

Not nominating (2) Shadow1psc, Thor665

With 21 alive it takes 11 to sent someone to the Eyrie. When deasdline hits Bunnylover will be sent to the Eyrie at this rate.

* Kast is on V/la. Ghostlin is being prodded.
* Any mistakes in the VC point them out
*The deadline can be found here.

[xvart]

Feysal - if multiple people target your target are you told how many people visited your target?

[Feysal]

I looked back to see any Feysal posts after zoraster's fakeclaim. But alas Feysal was nowhere to be found.

I don't think I was even online at mafiascum.net that night. If I was, I was only reading posts earlier, and by the time zoraster claimed I had left. I only learned what had happened the following day.

Have a look at my location. It says "Finland", and has said that since I joined this site. My time zone is GMT+2, meaning zoraster claimed at 3:43 AM my time. I am sometimes up and posting that late, but not that night.

You've been doing this to me all game. Even after Benmage gave me a 1 day pass so that other players could share some time in the spotlight, like yourself.

I'm frustrated because I've said and done quite a bit, and it has been ignored. LynchMePls is being relentless and irrational in his tunneling of me. Meanwhile, how have you spent your day pass? Coasting. Sheeping. Not scumhunting, questioning, commenting, or doing anything else townish that would earn you anything more than a scum read. Or have you? How would you characterize your play today? What have you spent your time doing, and why?

Feysal - if multiple people target your target are you told how many people visited your target?

Magua already asked me that. My answer is here.

By the way, on the topic of Twilight Sparkle. I don't know about Sotty being sick, but I can vouch for Mina being away and hitogoroshi being busy due to another game I'm in with them. Therefore, I find that the hydra's lackluster play during day one is understandable.

[Locke Lamora]

Re:

The fakeclaim

.

I think it's suspicious that now both Zoraster and Feysal have used Littlefinger in their claim. I can't see Littlefinger being Lannister aligned, but to be fair, that's mod WIFOM. More suspicious about the two different people using Littlefinger in their claim.

Twilight:"At least we lose very little if Feysal is telling the truth - Voyeur is a pretty useless role." That's a pretty scummy sentence. Any town PR is valuable. I still don't believe Feysal is telling the truth, but just highlighting this attitude.

Scumslip, Nexus?

Unvote

while I think about this.

[danakillsu]

I think at this point (as I've thought all along) Feysal's pretty town. His claimed night action DOES in fact line up with town motivations, since even if scum had killed Benmage, he would have just found that scum killed Benmage.

@ LMP
So, lets find out if you have the same "double standard" that I do. Benmage just horribly messed up there, thinking that Feysal was scum because Feysal didn't watch him. That's as bad a mistake with as much of a scum motivation as I ever made. He didn't read carefully and still wanted to vote based on what he thought he saw. Is he scum too, then?

[LimMePls]

I can't believe this wagon is falling apart after that claim. WTF!?

@ LMP
So, lets find out if you have the same "double standard" that I do. Benmage just horribly messed up there, thinking that Feysal was scum because Feysal didn't watch him. That's as bad a mistake with as much of a scum motivation as I ever made. He didn't read carefully and still wanted to vote based on what he thought he saw. Is he scum too, then?

I seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

[Locke Lamora]

I think at this point (as I've thought all along) Feysal's pretty town. His claimed night action DOES in fact line up with town motivations, since even if scum had killed Benmage, he would have just found that scum killed Benmage.

@ LMP
So, lets find out if you have the same "double standard" that I do. Benmage just horribly messed up there, thinking that Feysal was scum because Feysal didn't watch him. That's as bad a mistake with as much of a scum motivation as I ever made. He didn't read carefully and still wanted to vote based on what he thought he saw. Is he scum too, then?

But wasn't Benmage the obvious protection target? I think he would have been more likely to confirm a town PR through that protection than through fairly randomly selecting a potential investigation target, which is what he did. I think Kast is a more likely pick for a player who nothing would happen to, not a townie carefully weighing up his best options for how to confirm a town PR. That's enough for me to:

Vote: Feysal

[Shadow1psc]

RE: Feysal on Zoraster;
Anything done here is null. As scum OR town, Zoraster was not partnered with Feysal. Feysal not being around or not voting Zoraster means... nothing really.

RE: Petyr meta;
Lets take a step back for a moment and look at the broad picture.

How do the Lannisters see Petyr?

They see him as Lannister aligned. Is he a Stark? One could argue. Scum spy/traitor role? Possibly. Any three of those possibilities are present. The name tells us nothing, other than sending us in WIFOM circles over this particular book which from beginning to end sees Petyr switch sides over 1000 pages, incredibly subtly, and fairly out of the spotlight with other events going on. We know his actions and intentions, but do Lannisters? Probably not, save Varys.

[Shadow1psc]

I've also seen traitor work two different ways (different site) in two different themes;

Starcraft II Mafia; Samir Duran was a recruitable traitor. All scum had to do was say the word, and he came over to their side (could not be recruited n1).
Final Fantasy Tactics Mafia; Weigraf was a traitor that didn't know he could be a traitor. Scum had to figure out who he was to recruit him.

Point being, what is the precedent for such a role on this site?

[Thor665]

Why is Thor still not.voting?

and yes still Thor. Shouldn't he have at least put a vote down by now?

What part of 'I'll vote tonight or tomorrow' is so confusing to you?

I actually think Magua looks uber town and outlined the Feysal issue very well. That doesn't look like a scum fakeclaim unless your belief is that Feysal is a raving idiot of scum. I don't believe that personally.
I don't want to get over on Twilight because even after my re-read I still am not that impressed by the case (I'm still not sure where MoI's uber case on her is) and I actually think the absence of two heads does dramatically affect a hydra because I've been in a similar situation and am aware what it can do - the sheer fact they've picked up their game now that they say the heads are back helps verify this to me.

The Nexus drive seems to be similar to the Thor drive, confirmation bias combined with lurkage = scum. Meh.

Vote Raivaan

Hup, hup, hup. Let's move them doggies.

My case on him is 'gut' also just his antics towards the end of day today where he's gone into a mud slinging whirlwind and is basically trying to make Day 2 about a lurker vote as far as I can tell.

[Shadow1psc]

Why is Thor still not.voting?

and yes still Thor. Shouldn't he have at least put a vote down by now?

What part of 'I'll vote tonight or tomorrow' is so confusing to you?

I actually think Magua looks uber town and outlined the Feysal issue very well. That doesn't look like a scum fakeclaim unless your belief is that Feysal is a raving idiot of scum. I don't believe that personally.
I don't want to get over on Twilight because even after my re-read I still am not that impressed by the case (I'm still not sure where MoI's uber case on her is) and I actually think the absence of two heads does dramatically affect a hydra because I've been in a similar situation and am aware what it can do - the sheer fact they've picked up their game now that they say the heads are back helps verify this to me.

The Nexus drive seems to be similar to the Thor drive, confirmation bias combined with lurkage = scum. Meh.

Vote Raivaan

Hup, hup, hup. Let's move them doggies.

My case on him is 'gut' also just his antics towards the end of day today where he's gone into a mud slinging whirlwind and is basically trying to make Day 2 about a lurker vote as far as I can tell.

Thinly veiled defense of Feysal? It's WIFOM to consider ones motivations for claiming petyr as scum. Maybe that's the beauty of it, claiming something so outlandish that you don't expect scum to do it, therefor accomplishing what he set out to do.... how very Petyr like indeed.

[Feysal]

Why so many people keep saying I should have targeted Benmage or hasdgfas, whether as watcher or voyeur, is beyond me. Benmage is in no way confirmed, and his contributions to scumhunting have so far been minimal. As for hasdgfas, he may be confirmed non-Stark, but he is also post restricted. Few people are even trying to make sense of what he is saying, and I've seen more people misunderstand him than interpret him correctly. Neither of them is a serious threat to the scum. Locke however is practically confirmed non-Stark and he can talk normally. If I were to target an obvious town read, it would be him.

And as I've already explained, targeting a town read as voyeur is pointless. Most likely I would learn nothing, or I would learn that my target had been killed, which I would learn anyway from the morning post. If I was lucky I might pick the same target as a doctor, and what would that tell me? That there is a doctor, and he is not totally incompetent with town reads. It would tell me that my target was probably town, which I would've thought anyway. In other words, it would tell me nothing new or useful.

However, if I managed to target someone who was investigated, that would tell me plenty of things. If the following day no one stood up and claimed the investigation, and no one seriously pushed the target, that would tell me that the investigator had apparently received a town result. Had Kast been investigated last night, I would now know that the investigation result was town, since no one has pushed him all day. If someone had claimed the investigation and started to push Kast, I could've supported that someone.

Simply put, I picked a target that I had a null read on, and some people had found scummy. I believed I could learn something far more useful from that than from targeting any townish player.

[Shadow1psc]

Why so many people keep saying I should have targeted Benmage or hasdgfas, whether as watcher or voyeur, is beyond me. Benmage is in no way confirmed, and his contributions to scumhunting have so far been minimal. As for hasdgfas, he may be confirmed non-Stark, but he is also post restricted. Few people are even trying to make sense of what he is saying, and I've seen more people misunderstand him than interpret him correctly. Neither of them is a serious threat to the scum. Locke however is practically confirmed non-Stark and he can talk normally. If I were to target an obvious town read, it would be him.

And as I've already explained, targeting a town read as voyeur is pointless. Most likely I would learn nothing, or I would learn that my target had been killed, which I would learn anyway from the morning post. If I was lucky I might pick the same target as a doctor, and what would that tell me? That there is a doctor, and he is not totally incompetent with town reads. It would tell me that my target was probably town, which I would've thought anyway. In other words, it would tell me nothing new or useful.

However, if I managed to target someone who was investigated, that would tell me plenty of things. If the following day no one stood up and claimed the investigation, and no one seriously pushed the target, that would tell me that the investigator had apparently received a town result. Had Kast been investigated last night, I would now know that the investigation result was town, since no one has pushed him all day. If someone had claimed the investigation and started to push Kast, I could've supported that someone.

Simply put, I picked a target that I had a null read on, and some people had found scummy. I believed I could learn something far more useful from that than from targeting any townish player.

By your own logic why wouldn't you target LL? Near-confirmed town, the doc was sure to target him or Benmage... you just contradicted your own logic.

[LimMePls]

By your own logic why wouldn't you target LL? Near-confirmed town, the doc was sure to target him or Benmage... you just contradicted your own logic.

That's correct. The more the story evolves the more nonsensical it becomes. What are you waiting for with your vote?

[Locke Lamora]

Feysal: what's more useful, a result that a target was 'killed' and 'protected' or a result that a target was 'investigated'?

[Feysal]

What are you talking about? I just explained why it does

not

make sense to target an obvious town read as voyeur.

And the obvious answer to Locke's question is of course that a target was investigated. Not to mention, the odds of picking a target that was both protected and killed are minimal, and not worth trying for.

[Thor665]

Thinly veiled defense of Feysal? It's WIFOM to consider ones motivations for claiming petyr as scum. Maybe that's the beauty of it, claiming something so outlandish that you don't expect scum to do it, therefor accomplishing what he set out to do.... how very Petyr like indeed.

More 'blatant defense of Feysal' but sure.
It's WIFOM, yeah, but no more or less than going 'lawl, obvious fakeclaim' is. Whether or not you believe or don't believe it you are making a decision on the WIFOM scale of the claim. Seriously, you see scum making that fakeclaim? That's the question, either you see that as a fakeclaim or you don't. I don't.

By your own logic why wouldn't you target LL? Near-confirmed town, the doc was sure to target him or Benmage... you just contradicted your own logic.

That's correct. The more the story evolves the more nonsensical it becomes. What are you waiting for with your vote?

That's...actually not a conflict with his logic though. He said why targeting a pro town player was a poor idea, and honestly, looking at it, he's got a good point.

What's your read on Raivaan? Are you so sold on Feysal or is it just trying to get in a lynch at this stage? If we get some movement going towards Raiv we can muddle this through just fine as this has been a pretty active game.

[Locke Lamora]

Why is knowing a target was investigated more useful when you have no idea of the nature of the investigation or even whether it succeeded? Case in point: I was Littlefinger in the last game and my first night result on Kinetic/diddin told me he was Sandor Clegane; I thought he was possible scum because the Lannisters were scum in that game, but I was by no means sure, so I didn't come out crazy-pushing a diddin case, even though I called him scum a few times. As it turns out, he was town. Why do you think it's more likely that you would select a target who was investigated? To me, that seems like a lot more of a shot in the dark than picking a townread who was likely to be a kill target.

[LimMePls]

What's your read on Raivaan? Are you so sold on Feysal or is it just trying to get in a lynch at this stage? If we get some movement going towards Raiv we can muddle this through just fine as this has been a pretty active game.

TOWN
Benmage
MagnaOfIllusion
Hasdgfas
Locke Lamora
Magua
Kast
xvart
Setael
Nexus
Zdenek
Shadow1psc
DTMaster
Raivann
Thor665
DrippingGoofball
Danakillsu
Ghostlin
Twilight Sparkle
Bunnylover
Feysal
SCUM

1) He's on the scummy side of null, but not much. I've been putting my full reads out given the nature of my claim and the possibility I won't be alive tomorrow.
2) If you've been paying any attention at all you'd know that I'm not just "trying to get a lynch at this stage". I'm sold on Feysal-scum.
3) Benmage has stated he will governor Raivann. Do you want to risk a no lynch by scrambling for Raivann lynch with like 3 days to deadline and hope that when you call Benmage's "I will governor" that he doesn't do it? Is your scum read of Raivann that good? Why?

[Locke Lamora]

Actually, we now have less than 36 hours to deadline. I assume Thor's making a point rather than seriously thinking he's going to build a wagon from scratch in a day and a half.

[danakillsu]

I can't believe this wagon is falling apart after that claim. WTF!?

@ LMP
So, lets find out if you have the same "double standard" that I do. Benmage just horribly messed up there, thinking that Feysal was scum because Feysal didn't watch him. That's as bad a mistake with as much of a scum motivation as I ever made. He didn't read carefully and still wanted to vote based on what he thought he saw. Is he scum too, then?

I seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

Okay I had to LOOK!

Wouldn't Benmage have been the obv. player to watch last night?

I never even considered targeting him.

Last night I considered what kind of players I would be targeting. Would it be the townish ones, or the scummy ones, or the null reads? I decided against targeting a townish player, since the most likely outcome would be, except for learning nothing at all,

was that the player had been killed and I would be no wiser.

YOU wouLD'vE caught scum!!

Yeah I think Petyr would be scum in this game.

Watched Kast???

Feysal not watching someone like me (probably targeted last night) screams of a fakeclaim.

Watcher role screams of a fakeclaim.

******Didn't Faraday say he didn't like the watcher role? SO in a game twice?!?! Doubtful. Fakeclaim? Probable.

KAST!?!?!? KAST!?!?! Jesus.

Meant to

vote Feysal

there

Damn. I was thinking of coming in to vote Zed too just to help incriminate TS if he flipped town...damn damn damn. (reading time )

So you have a double standard. It's ok for Benmage to vote/nominate in a way you don't like, but not Zdenek.

Now, I realize that Kast was actually the one saying I was scummy for my mistakes. But I took it that you agreed with that. Well, here's Benmage messing up in regard to Feysal's role, which is at least as bad as any mistake I made. Is he scum? If not, you have the same "double standard" that I supposedly have.

[Thor665]

Actually, we now have less than 36 hours to deadline. I assume Thor's making a point rather than seriously thinking he's going to build a wagon from scratch in a day and a half.

Well, to be honest I just really see that Feysal claim coming from town, and I'd rather go with almost any lynch than that lynch. The two vote leaders are town reads for me, leaving me in sort of a headless chicken mode.

...also, in my rush to read up I missed the Governor target announce from Benmage.

To answer your question to Feysal for him because I just think you're misunderstanding the nature of his claim; His power tells him when someone is targeted, not by whom. When someone turns up dead at the start of the day we pretty much already know they were targeted, so...worthless use of power to target someone who ended up dead. So it makes sense not to target someone you think will end up dead.