A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[LimMePls]

It's not a double standard because the two things are not the same. In the instance you are applying, the two things are identical. That is you called Zdenek scummy because he was voting and nominating town-reads that you have. But Benmage, who was voting and nominating IN THE EXACT IDENTICAL WAY you think is town. It reads like you were just looking for an excuse to call Zdenek scummy.

which is at least as bad as any mistake I made.

This even implies that you agree the two things aren't the same. It wouldn't be "at least as bad" if they were the same, it would be "just as bad". The difference is that what you've done and what Benmage has done are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. So there is no double standard. Nice try though. Flail some more.

[Zdenek]

I've read the wiki, but based on that and people's opinions, it seems inconclusive whether Littlefinger could be Lannister or not. I don't have an objection to his choice to investigate Kast: one of the uses for his role that I can think of is the potential to verify people's claims later on and I could see someone (fake-)claiming to have investigated Kast night one. However, the claim is still one that would be easy to fake. Based on what I've read, I agree with others that it would make little sense for the mods to provide this role as a fake-claim, so I am inclined to believe that it is actually his role. I am not sure of his alignment because I can see the value in telling the truth about your role, regardless of alignment, if it is "Lannister enough," to avoid being caught by a flavour cop later (in case there is one in the game). I'll be willing to vote Feysal, if no more support for a TS lynch is forthcoming.

[LimMePls]

Zdenek,

Please comment specifically on the connections Feysal has to diddin and Xtoxm. What is your take on that, disregarding the claim for now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Feysal

– I’ve gone back and looked at your claim. You don’t specifically say you are told what ability targeted who you ‘vouyer’. If this is correct I don’t understand your thinking on targettting Kast.

Say Kast was targeted last Night – the only thing that tells you is that he wasn’t killed. Jumping to the conclusion that it would be a Scan and if no-one pushed he would thus be Town is very flawed.

1. He could have been scanned by a Role-Cop by a scum.
2. He could have been targeted by a Tracker. If he is scum and didn’t act you would be falsely assuming he was ‘clear’.
3. He could have been role-blocked.
4. He could have targeted by any other number of abilities including Enabling, Protection, etc.

Granted some of these are more likely than others but I think the conclusions you are reaching aren’t logically supportable.

--

MoI: What do you think of Magua and Raivann's recent votes for us?

Taking a quick look I see Raivann’s is pure 100% sheep. I’ve read your objections to Magua’s return to you but don’t see anything unusual in his thought process.

Raivann will need to by lynched or vigged soon based on his play (although I do actually like his ‘interest’ list at 1532 for the most part). Magua is Town. Both are voting for my top suspect so I guess I’m satisfied with the result if not completely satisfied with the motives.

--

Scumslip, Nexus?

Elaborate please because I’m not seeing it.

--

I don't want to get over on Twilight because even after my re-read I still am not that impressed by the case (I'm still not sure where MoI's uber case on her is)

ITT thread Thor shows his re-read didn’t actually include reading as there is no way you should have missed THIS.

Vote Raivaan

Hup, hup, hup. Let's move them doggies.

My case on him is 'gut' also just his antics towards the end of day today where he's gone into a mud slinging whirlwind and is basically trying to make Day 2 about a lurker vote as far as I can tell.

So you want to specifically wagon Raivann on ‘gut’ and play chicken with Benmage’s direct statement he would govern Raivann today with less than 48 hours til deadline?

LYNCHMEPLS – I IMPLORE YOU TO KILL HIM WITH FIRE TONIGHT!!!!

Preview Edit – I see you say you missed Benmage’s decree. Further evidence of your well done re-read.

[Shadow1psc]

The additional problem with following 'you watched x and x was y'd' is to assume that we can't have a scum y. There's way too many variables with a role like Voyeur, you're like a secondary confirm. You should have targeted an obvtown just in case it came down to someone claiming to have visited them with z role. You could have stepped forward and said "No, only Y was done to X".

[Zdenek]

Zdenek,

Please comment specifically on the connections Feysal has to diddin and Xtoxm. What is your take on that, disregarding the claim for now.

I agree with this part of the case on Feysal. I think that it is quite possible that he was trying to distance himself from diddin; he called diddin scum a few times and demonstrated a reluctance to vote for him. Also, I think the fact that he mentioned Xtoxm's "good idea" is a bit strange, and I can see a scum trying to help their lurking buddy out by pointing out his contributions.

[Nexus]

@LL I don't see how it's a scumslip. I believe his Petyr Baelish claim is a

fakeclaim.

That's why I said "fakeclaim." If I thought it was a real claim, I would've said "claim." Surely the fact that Zoraster also pulled Littlefinger out and accused you of being him indicates that Littlefinger is one of those characters that isn't in fact in the game?

[danakillsu]

It's not a double standard because the two things are not the same. In the instance you are applying, the two things are identical. That is you called Zdenek scummy because he was voting and nominating town-reads that you have. But Benmage, who was voting and nominating IN THE EXACT IDENTICAL WAY you think is town. It reads like you were just looking for an excuse to call Zdenek scummy.

which is at least as bad as any mistake I made.

This even implies that you agree the two things aren't the same. It wouldn't be "at least as bad" if they were the same, it would be "just as bad". The difference is that what you've done and what Benmage has done are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. So there is no double standard. Nice try though. Flail some more.

The fact that they are not the EXACT same thing makes no difference. Stop trying to dance around the issue. He made a mistake with possible scum motivation. I made a mistake with possible scum motivation. You come up with different conclusions for the two of us. That's as much of a double standard as what you are saying about me.

[Benmage]

Dana I said I hadn't read but suddenly saw the post by raivann as I was about to...his watch comment obviously had me assume there was a watcher.

So yeah my mistake wasn't really misreading, because I never read it in the first place.

[Thor665]

ITT thread Thor shows his re-read didn’t actually include reading as there is no way you should have missed THIS.

In this topic MoI ignores the fact that he claimed there was a case he presented on Twilight *prior* to me replacing in.

Preview Edit – I see you say you missed Benmage’s decree. Further evidence of your well done re-read.

I never claimed my catch up was well done. In all honesty it was rushed, half arsed, and not to the level I would have liked it.
Besides going 'ooooh, Thor didn't read as clearly as I would have liked' is there a purpose behind this attack? It's not like I've been claiming to have had the master class thorough read of awesome on this thread.

Do you disagree with my read of Feysal?

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 2.23

Twilight Sparkle (4) Zdenek, Magua, Raivann, MagnaofIllusion
Bunnylover (1) Ghostlin
Ghostlin (1) DTMaster
Thor665 (2) Shadow1psc, hasdgfas

Feysal (6) LynchMePls, Setael, Kast, xvart, Nexus, Locke Lamora

Zdenek (5) Twilight Sparkle, Bunnylover, Feysal, Danakillsu, DrippingGoofball
Raivann (1) Thor665


Not voting (1) Benmage

With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. No majority at deadline and there'll be no lynch.

Envoy to the Eyrie

[/u]

Bunnylover (9) MagnaofIllusion, LynchMePls, Nexus, hasdgfas, Setael, Locke Lamora, Kast, Danakillsu, xvart

Raivann (3) Bunnylover, Ghostlin, Feysal
Thor665 (4) Zdenek, Benmage, Twilight Sparkle, DrippingGoofball
Nexus (1) Raivann,
xvart (1) DTMaster
Twilight Sparkle (1) Magua

Not nominating (2) Shadow1psc, Thor665

With 21 alive it takes 11 to sent someone to the Eyrie. When deasdline hits Bunnylover will be sent to the Eyrie at this rate.

* Kast is on V/la. Ghostlin is being prodded.
* Any mistakes in the VC point them out
*The deadline can be found here.

[Eddard Stark]

DTMaster is being replaced. The deadline will not be extended

[Thor665]

Unvote: Raivaan
Vote: Zdenek

Blatant counterwagon vote to try to avoid Feysal lynch.

[danakillsu]

Dana I said I hadn't read but suddenly saw the post by raivann as I was about to...his watch comment obviously had me assume there was a watcher.

So yeah my mistake wasn't really misreading, because I never read it in the first place.

That's fine, and I believe you, but my mistakes have come from not reading things, too.

[danakillsu]

WHOA, we don't have much time. Get on that Zdenek wagon if you want to lynch probable scum instead of a town PR!

[Setael]

@Thor: You said you have a town read on Zdenek. You do realize that if a few people follow you onto that wagon, a person you say you think is town will be forced to claim. How can you be THAT confident that Feysal is town just because you wouldn't expect his claim from scum? (Ever heard of WIFOM?)

Something doesn't add up about Feysal's claim. I agree that it doesn't make sense as a scum fake claim, but he could definitely have foreseen that and hoped to WIFOM the town. Or maybe when he said he'd be unhappy if he couldn't claim, he was planning on claiming something else and for some reason changed his mind. Maybe he forgot that he'd posted that (about being unhappy if he weren't allowed to claim) when he said he knew his claim was just going to lead to a quicklynch. I'm actually wondering if he'd have just claimed VT if I hadn't called him on the PR soft claim before he claimed, and then when that was pointed out he realized he had to at least claim to be some kind of PR.

@dana: You really have no problem with Thor jumping on the Zdenek wagon even though he just said he thinks he's town? You're THAT confident Zdenek is scum just because his vote/nominate went to someone you think is town? Or rather, you're somehow THAT confident Feysal is town? How is that possible?

[Thor665]

@Setael - I have an exceedingly minor town read on Zdenek, and that was from over a dozen pages ago, and frankly Zdenek talks enough logic loops that I'm not particularly enamored by him anymore. I consider Feysal's claim to be a giant flashing sign of town. I'm absolutely against his lynch today. I can't get any of my actual scum reads lynched, and of the viable alternates at this stage Zdenek is the only horse available whom I'd be okay lynching. Therefore, he's for the rope.

You seem off put by this, considering how minor of a note my liking Zdenek mention even was - how strong is your read on Zdenek and should I care about it? You don't seem strongly sold on Feysal scum, considering you're basically just sort of weak slapping him with WIFOM as a reason to lynch, and WIFOM is (probably after over defensive) one of the most improperly used scumtells in the game.

[Raivann]

Unvote, Vote: Feysal

All his talk about me not doing anything today and yet he's still voting me. I was happy with my TS vote today and thought the lunch had a good chance of happening. Not so much now though.

[Raivann]

Oops that was envoy

[Bunnylover]

Unvote, Vote: Feysal

All his talk about me not doing anything today and yet he's still voting me. I was happy with my TS vote today and thought the lunch had a good chance of happening. Not so much now though.

Feysal is voting Zdenek.
You have been doing nothing today.
And your vote looks like, scratch that, is an OMGUS vote.

[Zdenek]

Thor, please explain what you mean by "logic loops?"

If it's just faulty logic that you don't like, I think you should look carefully at the crown jewels, points one and two, of Twilight Sparkle's case on me.

[Twilight Sparkle]

The soothing calmness of a Magua post.

Unvote, Vote: Twilight Sparkle Aahhh, that's better.

Magua's right, Feysal is town.

It's not too late.

TS- Zdenek is in one of my top 5 town reads atm.

I'm more interested in things like DTMaster, TS, BL, Nexus, and yes still Thor. Shouldn't he have at least put a vote down by now?

Magua's right, Feysal is town.

It's not too late.

Unvote, Vote: Feysal All his talk about me not doing anything today and yet he's still voting me. I was happy with my TS vote today and thought the lunch had a good chance of happening. Not so much now though.

Hahahahaha.

Oh, man.

I'm late for work, but was in the process of making a big wall post...but oh. The irony. You had to walk right into that one.

Hahahaha.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

I am just going to quote the one section I was writing on Raivann first. It deserves its own section, I swear.

=====

Okay. At this point, I don't fucking care if it is mod-confirmed that there's only one scumteam, and there are ten governors who've promised to save you. You are the most incompetent obv-scum that I have ever seen. This is nothing whatsoever how you played in

A Game of Thrones

, and only superior to your play in

A Clash of Kings

in that

you haven't voted a player you called town two pages ago yet

(Mina-from-the-future's-edit: LMAO!!!!!!!).

I will honestly link to posts from

A Game of Thrones

in which you showed actual evidence of a higher thought process just to appease anyone who thinks, "Oh, Raivann is a VI, so he ALWAYS plays like this."

I'm just curious. What made you decide Feysal was town, anyway, posts after attacking his claim? Actually, why the hell did you suspect Feysal in the first place? Reading you in ISO, you put him on your list of day-vig targets to Cow, but never actually attack anything he's done.

I'm going to discuss something with hito and Sotty. Because were I on my own, I would do something very stupid right now.

[Twilight Sparkle]

EBWOP: Aaah, posted that before checking over my quote tags. Some of those were redundant, and I also forgot to link to a few posts of Raivann's questioning Feysal's claim BETWEEN sheeping Magua and unvoting AND calling Feysal town.

[Setael]

@Setael - I have an exceedingly minor town read on Zdenek, and that was from over a dozen pages ago, and frankly Zdenek talks enough logic loops that I'm not particularly enamored by him anymore.

Really? Because you just said this a few hours ago:

The two vote leaders are town reads for me, leaving me in sort of a headless chicken mode.

If you only had a "minor town read on him" why did you say this? And what was the reference to a dozen pages ago? Did you forget you just stated you think he's town? Also, can you point out what in Zdenek's posts was "talking logic loops"?

You seem off put by this, considering how minor of a note my liking Zdenek mention even was - how strong is your read on Zdenek and should I care about it?

You don't seem strongly sold on Feysal scum, considering you're basically just sort of weak slapping him with WIFOM as a reason to lynch

, and WIFOM is (probably after over defensive) one of the most improperly used scumtells in the game

The bolded makes it immensely clear that you haven't read the thread at all. Are you just swooping in to try to save your buddy Feysal? I am "off put" by this because I think you are trying to derail a wagon on scum.

[Twilight Sparkle]

When I have more time, MoI's big post in response to me deserves a response, as does Zdenek's. Still haven't got a chance to check out the links LMP provided. But for now...

No one put Zdenek at L-1 yet.

Yes, this sounds strange when we're the ones who made the case on him. But I'm not ready for him to claim. We're currently deliberating on something.

Just a few notes:

-Sorry to hito for not really discussing the logistics of Feysal's claim on AIM. Yes, scum could request fake role PMs from the mod in the previous two games in this series. Feysal's paraphrasing of every line of flavour in his role PM is null.

-Anyone pushing the "Petyr Baelish would not be Lannister-aligned" argument sucks. Faraday always gives scum safeclaims, so regardless of Feysal's alignment, Littlefinger was clearly intended to be a town-aligned character. I'd

almost

say his being Petyr Baelish would be a towntell, simply because it suck (since last game had Petyr and Sandor as town-aligned and Tyrion as scum-aligned just to mess with people)...but Percy WAS given Melisandre last game. I can't remember if Faraday randomized the real and fake character names in the prequels.

-Even I'll admit that hito's sentence about Feysal's role elicited a "...do you have any idea what that sounded like?" from me as I read it, so I can actually sympathize with people finding it scummy, but he clarified what he meant. Feysal's role alone isn't powerful enough (particularly when revealed on D2 before he could out someone fakeclaiming protective/investigative results) to merit saving him, so it all comes down to whether you think he's town based on play alone. And also, we aren't confident enough in his innocence to fight Feysal's lynch harder than we already have by voting Zdenek. I still think a non-Feysal lynch today is viable, though.

-When I'd started writing this, I was going to white-knight Feysal and say that Feysal's defence felt town. Yes, Kast wasn't the best night action choice, and his "dying without having claimed" comment is bad. But his frustration feels town. And although I'd suspected he'd might be buddying up to us, there's little reason for him to defend Twilight Sparkle with meta evidence if he's scum and going down, anyway.

But there's one major point that bothers me with Feysal. I've just ISO'd him, and noticed that he's given little in the way of suspects today. All he's done is agree with our Zdenek case. The rest of his posts are walls and walls of defence. As in, something like 90% defence, This is something that's niggling at me. Particularly because when he made his comment to LMP along the lines of, "I know I'm dying today or tonight," I internally went, "Um...so shouldn't you be a lot more defeated as town, and just trying to scumhunt with your last breath?"

I need to tiptoe really, really carefully around this, but I need to check out Consulmaker II to get a hint of how Feysal reacts to being wagoned as town.

-I was going to say to Shadow that Thor was too good a scum player to drop a useless vote on Raivann when his scumbuddy was being wagoned while us and Zdenek were still viable. That's kind of a moot point now, though. Also was going to ask him why he hadn't mentioned Zdenek as he discussed the leading wagons, although he's shared his read of him now. But I'm not quite sure I get his reasons for clearing Feysal. Just that his claim doesn't sound like a fake (which is null, anyway--Petyr is either Feysal's real claim or a mod-provided one)? What do you think of Feysal's actual play?

The Nexus drive seems to be similar to the Thor drive, confirmation bias combined with lurkage = scum. Meh.

What Nexus drive? Hasn't Magua been the only person who's voted for him all day, aside from a few people looking at him sideways?

My case on him is 'gut' also just his antics towards the end of day today where he's gone into a mud slinging whirlwind and is basically trying to make Day 2 about a lurker vote as far as I can tell.

What are you talking about, making Day 2 about a lurker vote? Whatever else you can say about Raivann, this is a weird superficial dismissal of his play. The cases he's made for his votes on Twilight Sparkle and Feysal--ha ha, just kidding. The cases which he's

mindlessly sheeped

by just popping votes down depending on which way the winds blew have not been about lurker votes.

===========================================

I wanted to see what would happen, specifically whether anyone would complain about it. Nothing did, which was less than useful. I gave it a few days, and then put it back as the deadline approached.

I think you're scum and I want you lynched. I think you played a subpar game D1, a subpar game D2 until it looked like you were going to get lynched for it, then busted out the Zdenek case. Although I appreciate the upswing in activity, I still think you're scum.

...Let me get this straight.

I was the one telling hito that even though I wasn't fond of Magua's revote, hito was being overly paranoid and OMGUS-y for thinking he's scum. (We're of the opinion that there's 0-1 scum among {MagnaofIllusion, Magua, Benmage}.) And I agree it makes sense to hold stronger players who can look townish as scum to higher standards, as irritating as it was when we couldn't help not being a super-active protown force.

But you're saying that your suspicions of us never actually diminished, and your unvote of us was all part of some super-secret gambit "to see if anyone complained." And because no one did complain about your unvote, that meant we were scum?

...Yeah.

I just want you to know that if you're town, I hate you right now.

...I was going to add even more to the sentence up above. But I deleted it. I'll just say that I agree with hito's #1550.

At least MoI and even Zdenek have attacked us for something beyond inactivity. So their tunneling on us makes some sense. You summarized your own case on us as "Twilight Sparkle is a hydra composed of hito, Sotty, and Mina. Tell us who they think the scum are." Now that we've told you who we think the scum are...sorry, but we're still scum, because it took us this long to start playing the game at full-strength when THAT'S THE WHOLE REASON WE'RE A HYDRA IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I think I'm going to shut up and let hito do the defending from now on. Otherwise, my posts will deteriorate into, "Anyone who was, is, or ever will be voting for us is stupid and sucks at Mafia, I hope you feel soooooooo guilty when we flip, and please DIAF." And then people will be all, "Look at the scum flailing! Her appeal to emotion

IS NOTED

." And then that will appeal to my

own

emotion of blind rage, and I'll end up arrested for manslaughter.

Also:

Your quote, "I expect the other scum to jump off of Twilight, and I want to be first. But I guess I can slide back on if needed." shows that you think there are/were other scum on your wagon. Looking back, your main attacks have been Zdenek, MagnaofIllusion, and I, all of whom were voting for you today, and Thor, who was not.

What's your point? "You think there is scum on your wagon. You've attacked players on your wagon, as well as a player off your wagon." But yes, that's part of why we latched onto Zdenek--of the players on our wagon, his vote felt the worst (and Raivann was off the table, anyway). There's always scum on a leading wagon.

(I've made my thoughts known on Feysal. Unlike hito, I lean null-to-scummy on Nexus, but in all honesty, he's mostly blended into the background for me--like Zdenek did until we started taking a closer look at him on D2. On D3 we're planning to revisit our reads on every player in the game.)




The above three posts were all Mina.