Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[implosion]

VCA. I put my name in the townie list solely because I am most likely today's lynch. Having this in one place may be useful tomorrow, and having my name in blue will be more helpful. I've never actually done a legitimate VCA, so comments may not be great, but they're there.

Votecount the first:

implosion

(2):

mb53

, neko2086
mongoose (2): Darth Yoshi,

implosion

WeaponsOfMassConstruction (2):

ICEninja

,

silavor

mb53

(1): mongoose

ICEninja

(1): WeaponsOfMassConstruction

over9000

(1): q21

This looks bad for WoMC (now Swiftstrike). His wagon has 2 townies on it, and isn't gaining any momentum - meanwhile, his own vote is on a townie.

Votecount the Second:

WeaponsofMassConstruction (4):

ICEninja

,

silavor

,

_over9000

, q21
Mongoose (2): Darth Yoshi,

implosion

_over9000

(1):

mb53

q21 (1): mongoose

ICEninja

(1): WeaponsofMassConstruction

Silavor

(1): Zdenek

Okay. Based on this, I think it's safe to say that at least one if not both of WoMC/q21 (Swiftstrike and Setael) are mafia, based on WoMC's bandwagon.

Votecount the Fourth (apparently there was no third):

WeaponsofMassConstruction (4):

silavor

,

_over9000

, q21, mongoose

_over9000

(3):

mb53

, KingTwelveSixteen,

ICEninja

mongoose (2): Darth Yoshi,

implosion

KingTwelveSixteen (2): neko2086, nameless

ICEninja

(1): WeaponsofMassConstruction

Silavor

(1): Zdenek

This looks fairly bad for KTS. he's voting on a ML-wagon containing only town other than possibly him, and he's got two votes on him. If he's scum, one of neko/nameless may be distancing. neko and nameless probably aren't scum together.

Votecount the Fifth:

WeaponsofMassConstruction (3):

silavor

,

_over9000

, mongoose

_over9000

(3):

mb53

, KingTwelveSixteen,

ICEninja

mongoose (2): Darth Yoshi,

implosion

KingTwelveSixteen (2): neko2086, nameless

ICEninja

(1): WeaponsofMassConstruction

Silavor

(1): Zdenek
nameless (1): q21

q21 hops off the WoMC wagon. Zdenek's vote has remained, for a while now, stranded on a random townie whose wagon would never exist.

Votecount the Sixth:

WeaponsofMassConstruction (3):

silavor

,

_over9000

, mongoose

_over9000

(3):

mb53

, KingTwelveSixteen,

ICEninja

mongoose (2): Darth Yoshi,

implosion

Silavor

(2): Zdenek, q21
KingTwelveSixteen (1): neko2086

ICEninja

(1): WeaponsofMassConstruction

mb53

(1): nameless

q21 jumps to Silavor. Zdenek and q21 (Setael) are probably not scum together. Zdenek still doesn't move his vote, while q21 wagon hops.

_over9000

(4):

mb53

,

ICEninja

, neko2086, KingTwelveSixteen
WeaponsofMassConstruction (3):

silavor

,

_over9000

, mongoose

implosion

(2): Darth Yoshi, nameless

Silavor

(1): q21

ICEninja

(1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
nameless (1): Zdenek
mongoose (1):

implosion

This VC is fairly important. From this, based on the two main wagons, the following conclusions can be made: there is most likely one scum between {neko, KTS} and one scum between {Empking, Setael}. Nothing is certain, but those are the more likely scenarios. There also might be mafia between Darth/nameless, but I won't speculate too much about my own wagon when i haven't flipped yet. Next VC is just another hop from q21. These hops might be scummy.

Saint

(4):

mb53

, neko2086, KingTwelveSixteen, Zdenek

implosion

(3): Darth Yoshi, nameless,

ICEninja

ICEninja

(1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
Empking (1):

implosion

KingTwelveSixteen (1): Empking

At this point, ICE jumped on to my wagon and Zdenek jumped on to o9000's. I'm really not liking Zdenek's voting pattern - he has a useless vote for a while, moves around a bit, and then jumps on to a mislynch wagon.

Saint

(3):

mb53

, neko2086, nameless
Empking (3):

implosion

,

InflatablePie

, KingTwelveSixteen
nameless (2): Zdenek, Empking

implosion

(2): Darth Yoshi,

ICEninja

ICEninja

(2): WeaponsofMassConstruction, Setael

The Saint wagon dies down, and nameless joins. At this point, pretty sure of neko mafia. On the other hand, KTS jumps onto a non-confirmed BW (Emp's) from Saint. WoMC/Set probably contains mafia.

Empking (5):

implosion

,

InflatablePie

, KingTwelveSixteen, nameless, Darth Yoshi

Saint

(2):

mb53

, neko2086
nameless (2): Zdenek, Empking

ICEninja

(2): WeaponsofMassConstruction, Setael

implosion

(1):

ICEninja

Emp wagon builds up. KTS, nameless, and Darth Yoshi are all on it so far. It's safe to say at least one of the three is most likely mafia if Emp is town. If Emp is mafia, it could go either way.

Empking (6):

implosion

,

InflatablePie

, KingTwelveSixteen, nameless, Darth Yoshi,

mb53

nameless (3): Zdenek, Empking, Setael

ICEninja

(1): WeaponsofMassConstruction

implosion

(1):

ICEninja

Saint

(1): neko2086

Crux of the Emp wagon until it faded into nothingness. 3 townies (counting me) on it, 3 unconfirmeds. Really not sure how to read that wagon at this point. nameless's wagon might be interesting too, since it's composed entirely of living players. neko's vote lingers on Saint. There is most likely mafia on the nameless wagon if he's town, might be if he's scum (same as Emp's wagon).

Skipping the 13th, Votecount the fourteenth because it's more interesting:

Saint

(5): KingTwelveSixteen,

mb53

,

InflatablePie

, nameless, Darth Yoshi

mb53

(5): Setael, neko2086,

Saint

, Empking,

implosion

nameless (1): Zdenek

implosion

(1):

ICEninja

ICEninja

(1): Swiftstrike

Competing wagons,

both on town.

Meanwhile, a few people straggle, not in the wagons. It's safe to conjecture that there is, assuming a 3-person scumteam, one on each and one on random, or one on one and two on the other. I wanna say the first because Zdenek and Swift are both fairly scummy, so (again, nothing is 100%) but the mafia is most likely one person from each of {KTS, nameless, Darth Yoshi} {Setael, neko, Empking} {Zdenek, Swiftstrike}. Not sure on the first set, because they're mostly townreads. Second set, I'd guess neko. Third set, Zdenek, though both are somewhat likely.

Setael, neko2086,

Saint

, Empking,

implosion

, Swiftstrike,

InflatablePie

- mb's lynch wagon. I wanna say there are probably 2 mafia on it, which would probably be neko and swift. Not sure though, and there are a lot of possibilities.

To summarize my thoughts from this

There is probably one mafia in each of {KTS, nameless, Darth Yoshi} {Setael, neko, Empking} {Zdenek, Swiftstrike}
Between Swift and Setael, there is probably mafia
Between neko and Nameless, there is probably town
Between Zdenek and Setael, there is probably town
Between neko and KTS, there is probably mafia
Between Setael and Empking, there is probably mafia
Between Setael and WoMC, there is probably mafia
And none of these are for sure, by any means.

[implosion]

Heh. Post 750. Top of the page, too. That'll be easy to remember.

Day two

- getting lazier with notes

Votecount the Seventeenth:

Saint

(4): nameless, KingTwelveSixteen, Setael,

ICEninja

nameless (2): Empking, Zdenek
Empking (1):

Saint

implosion

(1): Darth Yoshi
Zdenek (1): Swiftstrike

At least someone in the mafia has gotta be pushing on Saint already.

Saint

(3): nameless, KingTwelveSixteen,

ICEninja

nameless (3): Empking, Zdenek,

Saint

implosion

(1): Darth Yoshi
Zdenek (1): Swiftstrike

ICEninja

(1): Setael

Setael's jump is possibly strange - competing wagons.

Votecount the Nineteenth:

Saint

(4): nameless, KingTwelveSixteen,

ICEninja

, neko2086
nameless (3): Empking, Zdenek,

Saint

implosion

(1): Darth Yoshi
Zdenek (1): Swiftstrike

ICEninja

(1): Setael

I'm starting to think it's a neko/Setael scumteam at this point. That would be fairly consistent with what I had in my last post, except for them both being on mb's wagon. Still, possible. I'd say at least one of them is mafia.

Votecount the Twentieth:

Saint

(4): nameless, KingTwelveSixteen,

ICEninja

, neko2086
nameless (2): Empking, Zdenek
Zdenek (2): Swiftstrike,

Saint

ICEninja

(2): Setael,

implosion

implosion

(1): Darth Yoshi

No relevant changes. I'm also starting to note Darth Yoshi's vote rarely appearing anywhere really relevant, which may be of note.

Saint

(5): nameless, KingTwelveSixteen,

ICEninja

, neko2086, Empking

ICEninja

(3): Setael,

implosion

,

Saint

nameless (1): Zdenek
Zdenek (1): Swiftstrike

implosion

(1): Darth Yoshi

Set may be mafia who wanted to distance from the Saint wagon, with neko as mafia pushing it. Emp jumps on, not much else new.

Votecount the Twenty Second:

Saint

(6): nameless, KingTwelveSixteen,

ICEninja

, neko208, Empking,

Saint

. LYNCHED

ICEninja

(2): Setael,

implosion

nameless (1): Zdenek
Zdenek (1): Swiftstrike

implosion

(1): Darth Yoshi

The lynch wagon, with a selfvote so that we don't get as much information from it.

Honestly, every time I start doing ISOs I feel like I'm not really getting anything useful... that's part of why I decided to do a VCA.

[Nameless]

Hey. We've mislynched twice and D2 already ended suddenly, the town can't AFFORD to lynch anybody straight away without some better consideration of all players first. No hammering yet, please.

Setael: For a mason to actively cast suspicion on the only other player they know to be town would be almost as bad play as self-lynching, as well as making any future claim highly suspect. The only reason I'm not voting Empking right now is that his play has been so unhelpful thus far that I could actually see him encouraging this as town somehow.

DarthYoshi: That was overdefensive. My post was clearly an attack on Empking's claim, with some provocation towards Zdenek to clear up the only off-chance Empking is actually townie. Also, "Setael's and your" cases containing significant new material is BS. Setael hasn't done anything except literally quote ICEninja, while your points were either taken directly from Swiftstrike or had already been answered by implosion in #667.

Implosion: I think your VCA makes too many assumptions to be reliable (your alignment notwithstanding), but it does make me think I should ISO neko later. Mostly because I could kind of see Setael / neko both suddenly starting mb53's wagon to point to in their defence later when Saint was lynched, but then enough townies actually followed them. That's really just guesswork though, so eh.

It IS interesting that DarthYoshi's only been on major wagons around deadline. Any response to that, Darth?

[implosion]

That's really just guesswork though, so eh.

So is everything in the game of mafia.

[Setael]

Setael: For a mason to actively cast suspicion on the only other player they know to be town would be almost as bad play as self-lynching, as well as making any future claim highly suspect. The only reason I'm not voting Empking right now is that his play has been so unhelpful thus far that I could actually see him encouraging this as town somehow.

I definitely disagree. If the mason buddy says nothing but 'I have a town read on emp' the whole game then it would be painfully obvious who emp's buddy was, wouldn't it? May as well claim if you're going to do that. Ideally, they should fake some suspicion but nothing that will commit them to pushing a wagon.

Implosions' VCAs are doing nothing for me.

[Zdenek]

I am working to get caught up. I will hopefully finish tomorrow.

I think that there is a reasonable case that can be made against Setael (for pushing what I feel was a very weak case against ICE yesterday, and the argument against Implosion that ICE investigated him yesterday and got scum).

While I am not a big fan of the case on Implosion based on ICE's posts, but after skimming his ISO, I can see that there is a reasonable case that can be made on him. In particular, I would like to point out that in his more recent post, he comments that he doesn't have any scum reads. This can be a scum-tell because of the difficulty that scum can have faking scum hunting. Because of this, I am not too unhappy with the fact that he claimed. I'm pretty doubtful that there will be any other pro-town roles in a game with masons (assuming Empking is telling the truth) and a cop, and anyone could figure that out, so the VT claim was expected.

I am very concerned about the possibility that Empking isn't killed before we get to lylo, which could be tomorrow. In which case, we'll have two people of the same unconfirmed alignment, and we will have to decide in lylo if we trust the two of them. I think I would rather have one confirmed town in lylo, than have to deal with this possibility and Empking could very well be scum, so I would support an Empking lynch.

Darth, you were suspicious of Empking before, but now you don't want him to claim his buddy unless it is to prevent his lynch. What's changed?

[Nexus]

Votecount the Third (technically the twenty-fourth but I missed one, so here it is )

implosion (4): Darth Yoshi, Empking, Setael, Swiftstrike
Empking (1): KingTwelveSixteen
Setael (1): nameless

Not voting: neko2086, Zdenek, implosion


With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. 5 to no lynch. Implosion is at L-1. Deadline is 8pm (GMT) on the 23rd March 2011.

As ever, any problems, let me know.

[Swiftstrike]

unvote

Just to stop the day ending prematurely.

Zdenek you said you don't think that it's likely for there to be another power role in the game if emp is telling the truth do you think it's time for a full claim or should that be left to see the result of the lynch?

[neko2086]

Emp--I've only ever played as cop once, and it was one of my first games. Can you elaborate on why Ice would have completely abandoned his case on implosion if he had gotten a guilty on him?

Implosion's VCA is helpful only in that it summarizes some vote counts. I'm no mathematician, but it seems like he's pretty much pulling probability of scum (and number of scum) on any wagon out of nowhere.

Zedenek--so you're comfortable possibly putting us in lylo just to avoid having Emp in lylo? It sounds like throwing away a lynch to me, and we simply can't afford to do so. I suppose there is a slight possibility that a scum team could fake a mason claim, but it seems far too risky. Here's what's really weird though--earlier today you said there's almost no doubt emp will be killed tonight. Now we need to lynch emp to make sure he doesn't live to tomorrow. Sounds even more like you're trying to waste a lynch.

I'm still not extremely happy with your aversion to the Saint wagon yesterday. There was a laundry list of decent reasons to vote him, and yet you stated you wouldn't vote him, knowing his meta, until somebody pointed out something scummy he's done. Actually, after I pointed this out and asked you how you could explain Saint's crappy play based on meta, you never responded. It's almost as if you knew Saint was going to turn up town and wanted to stay off the wagon.

Unfortunately, unless someone can explain to me why Ice might have abandoned his implosion case the way he did with a guilty result, I really don't think he's given us much to work with today in terms of his role results. He has, however, laid out a nice case against implosion that has merit on its own. Additionally, implosion shows the same kind of aversion to the saint wagon that zdenek does, so I would not at all be surprised if they were partners. I'm fine with an implosion lynch, but there is plenty of daylight left, and I think we need to take a serious look at zdenek, who has not really been pressured at all this game and hasn't really been too involved

vote: zdenek

[Nameless]

Implosion, what exactly are you hoping to achieve by posting #753?

Setael, good point, let's continue to argue theory in Empking's defence while avoiding real comment on implosion's VCA.

Zdenek, are you Empking's buddy, yes or no. This scum are already going to know or figure this out regardless of how theoretically you talk, but town needs to know this NOW so we can get the most benefit and make a better judgment. Your theoretical support (ie. based on lylo theory and that you haven't voted) for lynching Empking is flawed for this reason - if Empking was lynched and town, the scum could NK his buddy and leave no confirmeds in probable lylo. If you are mason you should claim here to maximise the town benefit and avoiding heading into lylo as you suggest.

As I said, process of elimination leaves you as the only likely mason buddy to Empking's slot (your opinion of mongoose was vague and you only once called his actions scummy when pressed by ICEninja). It follows then that you should know Empking's alignment from your own role - if you aren't mason, Empking almost certainly is scum and you should also claim here. The only situation in which it would be optimal for you not to claim, would be if you were scum; in which case it still follows that Empking is lying and scum with you.

The problem with this argument is the possibility of Empking's mason playing very poorly. However, I'm not inclined to believe any of the other remaining choices would ruin their validity by outright claiming they weren't or would needlessly and without any provocation gang up with other townies on their buddy in the opening game. (Setael's theory I doubt for its 'all or nothing' reasoning and that I believe she is scum with alternate motivations.) Unless another player can point out where I'm wrong, I'll act on this after Zdenek's next post.

Swiftstrike, you PLACED that L-1 vote. If you're worried, why did you make it?

[implosion]

Implosion, what exactly are you hoping to achieve by posting #753?

Refutation of the point that my VCA was guesswork.

Implosions' VCAs are doing nothing for me.

Is this because it seems to put you in scummy positions a lot? If not, then why? And why does it need to "do something for you?" The point of me posting the VCA isn't to stop my bandwagon, I've pretty much given up that fight because I don't see any way to refute the case on me. It's to give dying opinions, something to consider, and to put the VCA in one place so people can refer to it later and draw their own conclusions (hence my name being in blue).

While I am not a big fan of the case on Implosion based on ICE's posts, but after skimming his ISO, I can see that there is a reasonable case that can be made on him. In particular, I would like to point out that in his more recent post, he comments that he doesn't have any scum reads. This can be a scum-tell because of the difficulty that scum can have faking scum hunting. Because of this, I am not too unhappy with the fact that he claimed. I'm pretty doubtful that there will be any other pro-town roles in a game with masons (assuming Empking is telling the truth) and a cop, and anyone could figure that out, so the VT claim was expected.

I claimed because I'm (or was) at L-1. I don't see how having "difficulty faking scumhunting" would lead me to say I have no fosses if I were in reality scum; the job of mafia is to avoid looking like mafia. Doing something as blatantly scummy as saying I have no fosses isn't something scum would probably do. Now, obviously, you can respond to this by saying it's WIFOM. Then again, so is everything in mafia.

Implosion's VCA is helpful only in that it summarizes some vote counts. I'm no mathematician, but it seems like he's pretty much pulling probability of scum (and number of scum) on any wagon out of nowhere.

I never assigned probabilities. I just said what I think is likely. Other people can draw their own conclusions.

[DarthYoshi]

That was overdefensive. My post was clearly an attack on Empking's claim, with some provocation towards Zdenek to clear up the only off-chance Empking is actually townie.

Then I think it was a misinterpretation on my part. I saw it as you saying that one of the four of us was definitely lying if Emp wasn’t. Given what you’ve said just now plus a re-read of the Emp-Zdenek material you’re referencing, your motive is much clearer to me now.

Also, "Setael's and your" cases containing significant new material is BS. Setael hasn't done anything except literally quote ICEninja, while your points were either taken directly from Swiftstrike or had already been answered by implosion in #667.

Setael’s “ICENinja probably got a guilty on him” stuff was new material (even if it is weak material, it is new). My catch of Implosion’s vote in #667 is new material—Imp didn’t “answer” it in #667, he committed the slip in #667 in addition to the rolefishing slip that Swiftstrike caught. And, my response to Implosion’s “It wasn’t clear to me” defense to Swiftstrike’s catch was new material.

Also, why are you defending Implosion now? IIRC, earlier in the game, you thought he was scum. Has your read on Imp changed?

It IS interesting that DarthYoshi's only been on major wagons around deadline. Any response to that, Darth?

Because I didn’t want to see us no-lynch?

Functionally, we’ve had only one deadline, D1. D2 doesn’t really count, since Saint self-hammered out of the blue well in advance of deadline (though if you go through my D2 posts, you’ll see I was pretty enthusiastic about a Saint lynch). On D1, I was pushing the Implosion wagon hard, but I decided that it didn’t help the town to just park my vote there when there was a risk of not lynching.

Darth, you were suspicious of Empking before, but now you don't want him to claim his buddy unless it is to prevent his lynch. What's changed?

It sounds like you and KTS (and maybe Nameless, but he seems to genuinely think Emp is scum) mostly want to lynch Emp to verify his alignment as opposed to him being scummy. I’ve heard of towns policy lynching claimed millers before LyLo, but not claimed masons. If someone has, then please correct me, but I tend to be uneasy about policy lynches in general, but also so in a situation like this.

If there is a case to be made against Emp that is beyond simply to confirm whether or not he is a mason, I would probably be more sympathetic to an Emp lynch. But so far, that’s mostly what it feels like the discussion today has boiled down to. If you/KTS/Nameless have other reasons to lynch Emp, then convince me.

unvote

Just to stop the day ending prematurely.

Swift, did you know that your vote put Implosion at L-1 at the time you cast it? Why are you backtracking on your vote so quickly?

@Town as a whole: I agree with Nameless, Setael, Neko, et al that Implosion’s VCA, while extensive, is not terribly useful. I’m also concerned that Imp basically has ignored almost all of the reasons expressed for voting for him.

[DarthYoshi]

I'm an ever-growing disaster of quote tag fail. One of these days I'm going to get it right. Really sorry, y'all.

[Setael]

Setael, good point, let's continue to argue theory in Empking's defence while avoiding real comment on implosion's VCA.

I understand you have some not great IRL stuff going on, so I'll let the snarkiness go. Maybe go get some ice cream or something?

I'm not inclined to believe any of the other remaining choices would ruin their validity by outright claiming they weren't or would needlessly and without any provocation gang up with other townies on their buddy in the opening game.

If a mason buddy were going to fake suspicion in order to not be obvious later, wouldn't it be best to do it in opening game before there's any chance of a real wagon (or when you can still bail on a wagon fairly easily, or shift attention elsewhere?) Seriously, why bother not claiming if you're going to be so obvious as to never "suspect" each other? Why bother breadcrumbing if it's going to be so obvious to everyone after D1? You don't want scum to be able to pinpoint who your buddy is. This is not brain surgery.

I was a mason in a game where it was key that I not make it obvious, and I even said "I think the mason is _____ or _____" at one point to throw people off, and it was what kept me from being NK'd and alive at end game to secure the town win. (mini 486 if you want to look it up - my first post on this page: https://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewt ... &start=825 The other thing that has to happen for this to work is the other people can't all say "Well, it's not me." That's just moronic. I think if there are masons in this game, it would've been a smart move to fake a little suspicion on each other rather than it being "bad play" like you're suggesting.

I realize Empking could be lying about being a mason and if we don't hit scum today we're at lylo so the more I think about it, it seems like the ideal play is for the buddy to claim.

@empking: explain why you don't think your buddy should claim, even though we'll be in lylo tomorrow. I need more than just "Because it's not protown."

As far as implosion's vca - when I said it did nothing for me, I basically said this (in fewer words):

Implosion's VCA is helpful only in that it summarizes some vote counts. I'm no mathematician, but it seems like he's pretty much pulling probability of scum (and number of scum) on any wagon out of nowhere.

Why did you call me out but not neko?

After zdenek's post 755 I could support that wagon. I can definitely see him as scum with implosion. neko's 758 was excellent. Implosion's "defense" doesn't feel at all town to me though so I'm sticking there for now.

[DarthYoshi]

I realize Empking could be lying about being a mason and if we don't hit scum today we're at lylo so the more I think about it, it seems like the ideal play is for the buddy to claim.

What do you think should be the town's course of action if the buddy still refuses to claim?

Gonna re-read some of Emp's posts, especially vis-a-vis Zdenek after Neko's vote.

[implosion]

Setael, saying it did nothing for you implied that you thought the purpose of the VCA was somehow for me to make myself look like town (e.g. it did nothing for you in terms of my alignment), or the statement was just unclear. It wasn't. Besides, I did respond to that point of neko's... it could just be that saying something "does nothing for you" is really ambiguous.

@people saying that the VCA isn't useful; again, there's never anything certain in mafia. A VCA is just as useful as looking at posts. If you don't like the opinions I've espoused of existing bandwagons, then replace them with your own.

I’m also concerned that Imp basically has ignored almost all of the reasons expressed for voting for him.

Yes, this is true. At this point, I see me managing to fight my way out of the lynch as very improbable. I mean, what an I supposed to say? Mafia killed ICE either because they figured out/knew that he was cop or to make me look like mafia. I can say ICE didn't have a guilty on me, that doesn't mean that other people will believe me... I could respond to the case, but I don't see any way to make a refutation that would actually convince people to lynch someone else. What swift quoted can be interpreted as rolefishing... there's no way I can make people not interpret it that way, even if it wasn't the intention.

Darth's quote of me in the middle of 729, I don't think that was the main reason I voted ICE, that was just (what I thought was) faulty reasoning I was pointing out.

VOTE: Setael. I feel right now like this is the vote most likely to be on scum. The way he's pushing on me by saying that ICE had a guilty on me also seems like something that scum could have planned at night (of course, that doesn't bear any weight until/unless I flip town). He also

completely

neglected to make any case on me, instead quoting ICE's, which I've already gone over... he's barely even justified his saying that ICE had a scum result on me.

I'm also gaining suspicion of Emp. Here's how I see the situation with Emp's mason claim:

Obviously, we have 2 choices. Either his partner claims, or his partner does not claim. There is a third choice of him claiming his partner for us, but we don't gain anything from that as far as I can tell. There are also 2 possibilities: Emp is either town or scum. And so I put together a nice table here:

Emp's alignment ---------- Partner claiming	town/real	scum/fake
claim	If one of them dies, we'll have a confirmed townie tomorrow. If one of them is lynched, we'll have a confirmed townie tonight, who would likely die. A connection is established between the two which will help with scumhunting (either both or neither are mafia). The mafia are able to kill a mason tonight, if they want to (assuming no protection).	If one of them is lynched, we'd have confirmed mafia tomorrow. If neither is, there's a connection established between the two which will help with scumhunting (either both or neither are mafia).
don't claim	The partner would claim tomorrow. If the partner is lynched today, without having claimed, people may be unlikely to believe their claim. The partner may die tonight through coincedence, confirming Emp as town for tomorrow. The mafia are able to kill a mason tonight, if they want to (assuming no protection).	We lose out on the opportunity to draw a connection between Emp and a scumbuddy of his. We gain absolutely nothing. If we lead a lynch on a mafia member, ANY mafia member other than Empking, they get a free mason claim because we don't know Emp's partner if he's real. The scum get an extra night to decide who/whether to fake.

Bear in mind, this is assuming someone actually does claim to be Emp's mason partner. If no one does, we ask him to state his partner, and if they don't confirm him, we instantly lynch him. Clearly, if Empking is mafia, we want someone to claim to be his partner (or force someone to). If he's town, we actually lose very little if anything. Sure, the mafia can avoid Emp's mason partner if they want to and kill them if they want to. On the other hand, we gain valuable, absolute information about two players' alignments relative to each other. We can then examine the claim to see if it looks legitimate, and go from there.

Therefore,

I'd strongly like Emp's mason partner to claim, and I'd like other peoples' (particularly Emp's) opinion on this. The best way to do it would be a popcorn-style or whoever happens to post first claiming whether or not you are Emp's mason partner.

Of course, opinions on the plan are important before executing the plan. Furthermore: Empking. You have stated that it isn't the protown thing to do, having your partner claim. Well why not? Did you examine the pros and cons of it? If so, what is the reason that you don't think they should claim? Zdenek already asked you to elaborate on this, and you basically just shrugged him off.

By the way, there's no guarantee that the mafia would kill Emp even if he is a mason. It's perfectly likely/possible that they would

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
It sounds like you and KTS (and maybe Nameless, but he seems to genuinely think Emp is scum) mostly want to lynch Emp to verify his alignment as opposed to him being scummy. I’ve heard of towns policy lynching claimed millers before LyLo, but not claimed masons. If someone has, then please correct me, but I tend to be uneasy about policy lynches in general, but also so in a situation like this.

If there is a case to be made against Emp that is beyond simply to confirm whether or not he is a mason, I would probably be more sympathetic to an Emp lynch. But so far, that’s mostly what it feels like the discussion today has boiled down to. If you/KTS/Nameless have other reasons to lynch Emp, then convince me.
...

Man, all you gotta do is look back at day 1 for the huge amount of things he has done that I think are scummy. I have literally been supressing my urges to continue arguing with him and pointing out everything scummy he has been doing ever since I realised that I was just distracting the town with my giant cases against him.

[Nameless]

Implosion: I was calling my Setael / neko theory guesswork, not your VCA. You claiming that everything in Mafia is guesswork (and now WIFOM as well, apparently) is blatantly false, and sounds a lot like encouraging wild theories and lynches rather than the (mostly) sensible case built up on you. Saint may have actually been a suicidal townie, but your arguments were more intelligent than this before you were wagoned.

DarthYoshi: I'm poking at your attacks rather than intentionally defending implosion. I actually did think implosion was town for a while - end of D2 his posting was good, while ICEninja's attacks felt old and weak - but I'm leaning back towards scum again given some of his more recent posting. If so, his quick wagon I'm thinking is the other scum bussing hard to gain credibility back after pushing several mislynches.

That you were on a wagon at deadline isn't the problem - it's that you may have been avoiding wagons the rest of the time that looks suspicious. Implosion's vote was hardly a

slip

, he did give the (I feel reasonable) justification of "flawed reasoning is flawed reasoning". And yes, there is a strong case to be made that Empking is scum (that's why he was forced to claim, after all), but I'll leave that until after I've seen Zdenek's response.

Setael: No, that was a valid point, no opportunistically shrugging it off for you. Continuing to argue generic theory in lieu of responding to a significant post from the player you're trying to lynch is a good for appearing more active and analytical than you really are, but little else. The difference between your post and neko's was that neko pointed out a way in which the VCA was slightly helpful (summary of vote counts) but also why the analysis was flawed (number of scum on any given wagon unreliable), while your post could have been losslessly compressed to the emoticon .

Oh fine, here: VTs get townie reads on other town players all the time without being 'so obviously' masons or getting NKed for it. In most cases (and this being a closed setup with no reason to suspect it would end up otherwise), it is practical and safer for masons to simply focus their attention elsewhere; in the early game, it's not expected or even reasonable for a player to have conclusive reads on every other player. And now you know ... the rest of the story.

[Swiftstrike]

I'll answer this quote rather than darth yoshi because of the quote fail and it's the same question effectively

Swiftstrike, you PLACED that L-1 vote. If you're worried, why did you make it?

I wasn't worried at the time is the most simple answer to that something that Zdenek said has made me slightly concerned, which is why when I unvoted I also placed a question for him. Any more than that I can't really say at this time.

I would also very much like to see a claim from emp partner and if people want to do this popcorn style I have already said I'm not so I could start that off.

[Empking]

OK. Scum has manipulated this town too well clearly. I fakeclaimed Mason in order to attempt to draw the scum's night kill.

[neko2086]

Oh grrrrrl...

Emp, what was your plan if you made it to lylo?

Implosion: I know you never gave a real probability, but you associate a certain number of scum to each wagon with no real reasoning.

King, I've forgotten that you've made the same call for a lynch on emp as zdenek. Looking back you said we all agreed we'd kill him if he made it too far. Did we? I don't remember this. Also, why hold back a scum case on someone you think is scum? So he doesn't attack you again? Because it was no longer convenient? At any rate, why don't you make that list if all the scummy things he's done lately now?

By the way policy lynching a fake-claimed mason may be a whole different story. I generally dislike policy lynch, but I'm going to read up on LAL (and if someone with experience on this can make a good case for or against it, all the better)

[Empking]

Emp, what was your plan if you made it to lylo?

My plan was not to make it to Lylo. That's why I made my post towards Yoshi, in order to scare him into nightkilling me.

Oh yeah I missed you question befotre; Iece probably didn't expect to be nightkilled so he was probably fine with leaving it for another day.

[Empking]

Oh yeah can we please lynch Imp today. He was clearly Iece's Cop target and is clearly scum.

[Setael]

Unvote, vote: empking

[Nameless]

Right then!

UNVOTE: Setael
VOTE: Empking

Here's a recap:

* Empking enters the game after nearly 250 posts and refuses to provide any more analysis than the word "gut".
* Empking starts hypocritically attacking KTS, primarily for not scumhunting and IIoA.
* Empking votes me without explanation.
* Empking argues with KTS for quite some time, using poor game theory to disregard accusations against him without addressing them or explaining himself. He also many times responds to attacks with personal insults. Examples: in 332 he claims not explaining your votes is a town tell and in 357 he says that implosion is wrong because he is poor at the game.
* Empking hypocritically attacks KTS for continuing the argument, while excusing himself for cementing a read he'd claimed to be certain of before the back and forth even started. KTS fairly points this out as well as a number of other accusations Empking had been ignoring entirely. Empking replies ... by rolling his eyes.
* Empking finally makes a case against me, comprising of little more than empty sentiments. I defend myself or ask for further explanation for each point, but Empking only claims that his points were explained and none were refuted. 412 has this lie fully quoted.
* Empking lies about KTS, starting with 385.
* Empking lies about his role. More on this later.
* Empking lies about scum having no reason to claim mason, even after several are given.
(Honestly the rest of Empking's D1 is just more of the same insults, bad logic and general unexplained nonsense, so let's skip to D2.)
* Empking supports a Saint lynch despite leaning town on him.
(That's it. In the week that D2 lasts, that's all Empking does after the pressure is off of him. No scumhunting. No meaningful contributions. Not even "gut". He just lurks then votes Saint.)
* Empking jumps on the implosion wagon. His only explanation is taken straight from another player and in his own words "not conclusive".

To elaborate on Empking's fakeclaim: First of all, it was clearly prompted by the wagon on him at the time. That he didn't bother to defend himself after claiming should indicate it was an excuse to avoid addressing his case more than a serious attempt to avoid being lynched - he even argues several times that he's likely to be lynched if he isn't NKed, which directly contradicts his claimed plan of drawing the NK. That he couldn't provide breadcrumbs also indicates that he hadn't planned anything. And mason would be a poor choice from drawing the NK anyway; scum wouldn't want to NK him until they'd figured out his nonexistent partner.