Metropolis: Revisited [Game Over]

[AlmasterGM]

/confirmatory

[AlmasterGM]

Also,

V/LA March 15th-20th

.

[AlmasterGM]

I'd prefer to not break the game, guys.

lol hi scumbag.

[AlmasterGM]

Cancel my V/LA.

I thought I would be without internet, but I've got some.

But apparently being out yesterday meant 6 pages. FFFFF. Catchup coming shortly.

[AlmasterGM]

Ok I thought the V/LA was cancelled, but I'm still busier than I thought I would be AND it looks like it's 12 pages of actual content instead of just spam sooooo...yeah. I'll get around to this tomorrow, I think. Sorry.

[AlmasterGM]

Pregame

Alright, I know I trololol'd that Wraith was scum, but I thought about this a lot while I was taking a shit one afternoon and I actually think it's a towntell. In general, most people support breaking, so if a strategy exists, it's probably gonna happen anyway. And if it works, scum are screwed whether they supported the break or not. So there's really reason for scum to oppose a break - they might as well just pretend to like it for townpoints and hope it doesn't work (which is what happens in most cases anyway).

Page 3

Since the Wraith: Town tell is a new concoction of mine, I don't think voting Wraith is scummy, but I don't necessarily like the votes.

The DGB votes are stupid. Toog is also stupid for striking.

Page 4

KageLord voting Toog is the first actually scummy thing I've seen. How is it "scum play?" I can't think of a single reason why scum would want to throw away their ability to move around wagons. Obviously, this was just an oversight. Also, the passive call for a policy lynch (e.g., bad town) is also scummy. Toog isn't policy-lynch worthy.

Hrezs is scummy for agreeing with KageLord but not even committing with a psuedo-vote.

Don't really agree with any of LLD's post. The first bit is "blah blah town cooperation ftw." The second read on Magua I don't really like - Magua posting vote counts and math is already-existing information and isn't a tell in either direction. Baku and Wraith votes are meh.

Magua voting Hrezs is goodposting, though.

Page 5

AGar, Plum, and Nacho are all being town. ABR is being an asshole. Scum reads on LLD and Hrezs are being solidified. Friend has good reads at the bottom of the page, too.

Page 6

Claiming Day SK?

You can't strike me so what's the difference?

LMAO.

Exactly the reason why allowing a majority of players to control how we strike is a BAD IDEA. Voting serves no purpose this game other than to allow civilians to be manipulated. I did fully expect backlash though, hence the reason I stated the RDS was going to end with my Strike.

Ok seriously, I think the strike was ignorance, but this getting actually stupid. Psudeo-votes can't be manipulated any more than regular votes in a regular game. If this doesn't stop in the next few pages you're getting your null read taken away.

ABR's Charmander pretty much sums up the rest of the top half of the page. Lots of irrelevant back and forth between bunnylover and KK, neither of whom are actually being scummy.

Kagelord's post is scummy. It's just a GIANT continuation of a TERRIBLE argument that originated on Page 2/3. Lots of other stuff has happened in-between. This focus on Toog is an excuse to tunnel.

Remaining pages coming throughout the day, I need a break.

[AlmasterGM]

Ok, I'm about to continue catchup, but I absolutely CANNOT not comment on this page.

Sure.

Strike: DGB

My team is large, and I am vanilla. My death saves a power role from claiming and possibly dying.

Anyway, I get NK'd early and since I don't have a night action, it makes no difference if I'm lynched early, or NK'd early.

This. Screams. Scum.

The first part is "lololol i hate playing mafia with n00bs looooook at me self hammer, I'm soooo town." Which is anti-town as hell, but not necessarily scummy (in fact, it could be argued its townie). The second part, though, is an extremely sneaky suggestion that we let DGB live. The seed that DGB will be nightkilled, and so thus we don't have to deal with it. E.g., we should NOT lynch DGB. These two combined create an extremely manipulative presentation that gives rise to massive cognitive dissonance - we are TOLD DGB wants to self vote, but then told we don't want to lynch DGB.

Scumcity.

Vote: DGB

. Will probably be a strike once I finish reading.

[AlmasterGM]

Top Three Scumreads:

1) LLD

Her first post, as I stated in my last post, is very problematic. It's all either irrelevant and/wrong. The remainder her posts during the day are very blippy. There's not much content coming from LLD, and the content that does come is not very warranted. Given this, it's hard to forgive LLD for her first major post, as it's really the only one she has.

2) Hrezs

Working from recent to past … right off the bat, why is he randomly claiming Security Officer out of the blue? More importantly, why is he claiming Security Officer WHEN HE DIDN'T EVEN USE IT and thus has no valuable information? Hrezs isn't straight out of the newbie queue, and this move is too much of a fail to be town. He's given himself away as a NK target without any benefit for the town. It's especially hilarious seeing as he said, "I'd prefer not to claim" the day before. His prior post are not golden, either. The early ones are all IIoA (example: by the time we get to ISO #7, he's still talking about psudovotes). He then spends the rest of the day getting into this dumb argument with MoI that never goes anywhere … before throwing an unwarranted vote on DGB. This guy isn't town.

3) KageLord. I explained in my previous post why I did not like his early posts. His later posts have not improved. He spends quite a few posts today stating unjustified scumreads (for example, he names Exe and Friend despite having only quoted one of their posts each the entire game, and MoI despite having cited NONE o his posts) and providing lots of useless setup speculation on the lack of a NK. This is not town behavior because 1) town justify reads and 2) town don't care why the kill didn't happen in an open setup like this one.

Vote: KageLord

I've seen a few suspicions on Exe … can someone explain that to me? I'm not seeing it.

[AlmasterGM]

I'm much, much more in favor of KageLord. The fact that his last post was nothing but an assault on Friend is troubling - it seems like he's using Friend as a polarizing tool for survival. He also hasn't responded to my last post, as far as I can see.

LLD has still not provided the post promised. My scumread of her is being solidified.

[AlmasterGM]

If you think I'm scum because I can't find the time to post a gigantic wall of text that I feel is sufficient to cover a case, then so be it.

It was actually more the string of "I'm here!" posts yesterday. If you were just like, "I'm too busy," then fine, but that blip-string seems designed to announce your false presence in the game.

-Reaction to Wraith points scum. I've played with scum-AGM and this is very much what he goes for.

Your required reading for tomorrow: My totally different, actually reasoned out opinion that I posted later (instead of just the lolscum response that I give all the time).

3. Town should always care why the kill didn't happen. No need to speculate about it this early, but no point in completely ignoring it either.

"Speculation" isn't a grayscale - you're either speculating or you're not. Way to WISH WASH.

Wait, am I all of a sudden on drugs? Last time I checked, IC stood for "inexperienced challenged". Not something I call myself, but the term has positive connotations, not negative. What's the vest all about, as well?

^^ Town.

IMO, IC doesn't really matter. If we just lynch all teh scumz, we'll win.

[AlmasterGM]

Responding to a pre-prod prod. >.>

I'll get on this... eventually. @_@

Prod dodging? CHECK.
Posting in other games? CHECK.
Repeated promises to post content and then not following through? CHECK.
Lack of content yesterday? CHECK.

Scum? CHECK.

[AlmasterGM]

camn, I will strike LLD right now if you join me.

[AlmasterGM]

Oh, so as soon as the strike threat comes down you're suddenly all motivated to post, eh?

Go ahead and post that case, but it's waaaayy to late for you.

[AlmasterGM]

Ok, here's a problem. I know I'm in no position to tell anyone about posting content, but this vote is entirely baseless and opportunistic. He NEVER gives a reason for voting Hrezs.

Kind of like you never gave a reason for voting for Friend until just now?

Derp.

You are in no position to be saying this, considering you are doing the same thing. (As was I, before this post.)

Ah, the classical scum defense: "If you're doing it why can't I?!?! Wahh wahh!"

Yeah - not buying it, but I'm not going to spend my strike unless others are on board as well. CAMN: ATTACK?

PEdit: Apparently, you can't. See this is why we don't burn strikes early. x____x.

Vote: LLD

[AlmasterGM]

Um. That's not what I was saying AGM. I was saying, I know I have been doing many of the same things he has been doing, and I admit they are scummy.

It's just that I'm not scum.

And he is.

You have to admit that this sounds incredibly scummy.

You HAVE to.

You're basically arguing that you are scum except with an unwarranted addendum at the end that "you're not." And why not? Nobody knows!

[AlmasterGM]

You guys are idiots.

Kagelord is scum because he is.......rolefishing? Are you fucking kidding me?

Scum's main priority is to neutralize all killing factions. Mixmaster, paramedics and security officers just soften the kill blows at night. The gangs don't want to kill our PRs yet, they are much more interested in scumhunting...to survive.

Anyone that has been pushing this case, mainly KK and ThAd, are easy scum. Kill KK....you won't regret it.

If Kagelord ever flips scum this chainsawing is noted.

Is this the only reason KK and ThAd are scum?

[AlmasterGM]

This ThAdmiral wagon is a fail and that was a fail psudo-hammer.

Actual scum: KageLord, LLD

[AlmasterGM]

meh.

UNVOTE:
VOTE FRIEND

meh.
MEH.

MEH.

It is thanks to careless striking (like yours) that we are stuck in this dumb situation where obvscum get to waltz around while we are locked in on a town lynch.

I don't feel like doing this right his second, but I think that if we go back and analyze the timing on which strikes were placed where (e.g., who started the gas on the whole triple-wagon shenanigans and then shoved us onto ThAd), we can zero in on scumz (aka KageLord and/or LLDs buddies).

[AlmasterGM]

Strike: ThAdmiral

because OH WELL we can't really do much else, can we now?

[AlmasterGM]

I don't feel like doing this right his second, but I think that if we go back and analyze the timing on which strikes were placed where (e.g., who started the gas on the whole triple-wagon shenanigans and then shoved us onto ThAd), we can zero in on scumz (aka KageLord and/or LLDs buddies).

So... besides myself and LLD, who do you think at this point?

I just told you WHERE I think the scum are - as for who those people actually are, I haven't figured it out yet.

But I will, don't worry.

[AlmasterGM]

You're forgetting that AGM-town doesn't know ThAd's affiliation.

Yes, because everyone who has ever said, "So and so is town" had insider information because zomg they wouldn't ACTUALLY KNOW so and so was town!

Nominiate: Calling someone town for Best Scumslip of 2011

lol. blinders off, pl0x.

[AlmasterGM]

stuff

No.

The IC was unfair to the scumteams because if a member of the IC is about to go down, the optimal play is ALWAYS to out the entire scumteam so they reduce the chance of their buddy being lynched.

Example: Friend is about to be lynched. Outs me, Magna, and Baby Spice. Town spends next 3 days lynching us ... aka, NOT THE IC.

This play is always 100% optimal. There is no rebuttal - this game was unfair to the scum. End. Of. Story. Stop trying to pretend the setup wasn't borked.

[AlmasterGM]

a) This didn't actually happen, however possible you make it sound,
b) I'm not trying to pretend it couldn't have happened, but... it didn't,
c) You're right that it would have been optimal play, if it HAD happened, but
d) You're also forgetting that it wouldn't take 3 days, because of crosskills, DSK/NSK kills, etc.

You aren’t actually refuting the argument here. Yes, this didn’t happen … because the scumteams imploded

trying to prevent this scenario from happening

before it did. That doesn’t change the fact that this scenario should not have existed in the first place … let alone been the OPTIMAL play for the faction.

Why is the optimal play?Because as IC, you have ZERO allegiance to the scumteam, and outing them helps you because it a) sets up a series of deaths that are guaranteed not to be your own and b) eliminates an uncontrolled kill that could hit one of your members. It doesn’t matter how many days it takes or whatever – you’re about to be lynched, you out them. The end. It’s the best move.

That is a problem by any reasonable standard, and I would like to see your response to it (because I have not seen one thus far). Saying “well, there’s other factors like SKS and crosskills and stuff ” is fine, but at that point, you’re just reducing our chances down to luck – we just have to pray that our mole gets killed in the night before he gets lynched in the day.

Also, e) Feel free to drop the attitude and be constructive in your criticism, please.

I have an attitude mostly because a) this is the second time you have run what is essentially a bastard game advertised as a “theme” game and b) you are relatively non-responsive to criticism. But okay, I’ll try.

As I recall, I was going to deny you entry to this game due to your dickery in Blackest Night Mafia, but you fussed in the signup thread that you should be allowed to join, and I (being Mr. Nice Guy) caved, and let you play regardless. And now you're doing the same thing as Magna, whining and stamping your feet about a setup THAT YOU READ PRIOR TO WANTING TO /IN FOR THE GAME.

What I read changed after I signed up and after the game had started. The instant-IC death clause checked back the entire argument I am making above because if the IC was about to die, they lost anyway, so they at least had the concept of honor keeping them from outing the scum (e.g., well, we lost, but at least maybe town won’t win!) With the modifications and all the secret mod notes, it is incredibly clear the scum had ZERO chance to win this game. Had I known that, I would not have joined. And rest assured, I probably won’t be joining any of your games in the future, because as awesome as the graphics and setup look on paper, there’s always some secret twist that pops out that I end up not liking. Also, I complained about Blackest Knight too, so don’t put me in the same self-serving catergory as Magna.

1. As a mod, what would you have done to mitigate the problem you describe?


and/or, Do you feel that anything could be done, from a mod standpoint?

1) Don’t have moles.
1a) If you must have moles, make them as straightforward as possible (e.g., don't have tons of hidden mechanics on top of it) and dependent on the scumteam to survive.
2) No-flip is bastard mod by most interpretations – if you are going to have it, you must advertise it.
3) Recruitment is also bastard mod and not expected even in semi-closed setups (didn't we learn this lesson in Blackest Knight...?)
4) Don’t change the wincon of any team midgame - let alone a team with extra information. If you messed it up, still keep it as is, or declare the game a draw.

2. Why don't you think this happened, even when it appeared likely (by the unofficial "votes") that Hrezs would be killed on Day 1?

Because he hadn’t actually been struck yet and/or the IC hadn’t thought of this plan.

3. As an Inner Circle member, would you have ever thought of doing this:

"Hey guys, let's try this. The Night Serial Killer is already dead, so here's the plan. We're going to have Friend (Night Rider IC) and ckd (Skull-Crusher IC) out both of their scum teams, and then when all 8 of them are dead, the NSK is dead too, and the only thing left in the way of a town victory will be a DSK lynch. We have an arseload of townies left, so let's just lynch each one of them until we find the killer, JUST LIKE the Assassin in the Palace breaking strategy (which is on that wiki page, if you're interested). After the DSK is dead, poof! We win, because the town has removed all threats to the town, and our now-Survivor Inner Circle member will still be alive! Town + IC (through proxy of IC-survivor) win! .... IT'S FOOLPROOF GUYS! KEKEKE"

See? However unlikely, it's possible that people could try to break the setup just like this. That's the point of some parts of the setup being closed beforehand, so people can't formulate viable breaking strategies. Enough of the setup was open to play a fun game, but enough of it was closed to make the game still mysterious.

That’s not the argument I am making. I’m saying that IF an IC member is already about to be lynched, they out their team. Not they just implode on the spot. See my above arguments as to why they would do this.

[AlmasterGM]

Also, Baby Spice - be quiet. You messed up big time for our team. Manga and I were wrong about you being the IC, but at least we had everything under control with our no-bussing rule. You were the one that went rouge and royally fucked up our team.

[AlmasterGM]

I have a hard time understanding your argument toward the mod. If your argument is that there was no warning of bastard modding, from what I've seen recently that opens up a whole other can of worms regarding whether bastard modding should be announced or not (though I think it should). If your problem is that it was advertised as a theme game, then he really had no other option—the only other possibility that allows for roles not given ahead of time is mutually exclusive with bastard modding.

I don't see why that can of worms shouldn't be opened, especially given that ReaperCharlie's games are generally the ones that attract this controversy. I also think no-flip is pretty clearly in the camp of "things you tell the players about before the game starts."

[AlmasterGM]

Have you even read the Inner Circle quicktopic?

I just did. It mostly annoyed me. The IC did exactly what I'm said they should have - bus the hell out the scumteams. They never got around to claiming us because they either A) Died first or B) Had the entire rest of their team die first, but I think they would have gotten around to that idea given the time. I feel smugly satisfied that my no bussing and seizing total control of the kill strategies worked so well to annoy them … but look what came out of that? My prompt death.

And yeah, people will probably call it bastard, because that's what people like to do when they don't know everything about a setup. Also, it might be because they lost, which is mainly what happened in Blackest Night. But mostly it was just that they felt like whining. lol

(to be clear though, Blackest Night was powers of magnitute more bastardly than this one ever would be, even at the highest possible levels of bastardly possibility)

I find it pretty hilarious that in Blackest Night's dead QT, every single faction thought their faction had the least chance to win. Pretty sure people are gonna say the same thing here. But it only seems like that because there were 5 factions in that game, and there are 6 factions in this. It's relative to how many factions are in the game, and people don't understand that everyone has about the same chance to win, but that chance is just lower than in a 2-faction game.

That's what theme games are for, though. If they want to play a vanilla mafia-vs-town game, they can go and play Mini Normals or Opens or something. Plus, this game had a wiki that revealed almost everything about the setup. There were only a few specific things that weren't revealed on there before the game even started. So if people want to complain, there's always that defense I have, that they for the most part knew what they were getting themselves into, and wanted it anyway. If they feel like they got screwed, then... well... it's all part of the beast.

This post from the QT makes me relatively uninterested in responding to your post. I've played in lots of games and I rarely have many complaints about the setup, but when I do I feel pretty justified in my criticism. Hell, I even decided to give you a second try as a mod too, because I thought maybe you would change based on past feedback. But this post, combined with this game and Blackest Knight, makes it pretty clear that you are approaching everything with the confirmation bias that you are right. I don't think that recruitment, even one-shot, is okay. I don't think no-flip is okay. I don't think changing the wincon was okay. I don't think the IC being allowed to lose members yet still win was okay. But you don't think any of those things. You think that your games aren't bastard, that it's okay to have setups with completely swingy (and unfair) mechanics because they are "theme" games, that we aren't allowed to complain because the setup was 90% "open," and that everyone who dislikes the setup is just whining because they lost. You had the EXACT same response to Blackest Knight, so I'm really confidant at this point that this is just your de-facto attitude towards moderating. You design and moderate games that you think are cool, and then you run them. And that's fine. I'm sure there is a market of people who agree with you and like your games … and they can have fun playing in your games. I, unfortunately, do not - and it really doesn't seem worth it to argue about it because I don't think you are ever going to change your moderating style, regardless of what I have to say.

[AlmasterGM]

Yeah, BS didn't play against her wincon. It was a really, really, REALLY BAD play, but at the end of the day she was trying to kill someone whose wincon was mutually exclusive with hers, so I don't think that can be considered playing against your wincon.

[AlmasterGM]

I forgot about the whole LETTING-ME-PLAY-GATE. I don't know why that is being brought up - I think I did an excellent job of playing the game well and respectfully.