Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[AGar]

Space Pope dictating the direction of the mass-claim is hilarious, especially when he can't give reasons for it. Funny shit.

ICE - I see your logic, but I didn't see the need to drag it on when we have Klazam cornered here. I'm with RC - tomorrow will be appropriate but today is just not the call.

I'd like to see input from Ythan before anything happens.

[Space Pope]

How is it hilarious? Popcorn is obvious and best way of doing it. I volunteered to go first and I picked who I thought to go second. Then you want to quicklynch Klazam because you are "confident" he is scum.

unvote

vote: AGAR

[Exilon]

I do not know if it’s a good idea (

due to my relative inexperience

) but I think we could ask the vig to claim

. If theres a claim, we know that there is only one scum left in the game. If not, we can safely infer a serial killer here, I believe.

(...)
I believe that Ythan

is the third scum here

.

vote Ythan

Something doesn't sit right with these two statements. First, you're not sure if it's a vig or sk, and suggest a vig claim with a bit of "newbie" card thrown in. This by itself seems like a weak attempt at masking intentions. Then you seem very sure that there are 3 scum.

Who should start off the massclaim? Popcorn style?

I'm willing to start

, if a couple more people are willing to claim.

you forgot you claimed miller didn't you?

Oh another slip. How nice!
Also of notice that your general tone day 2 is incredibly different from Day 1. Not only it seems more disappointed but there's also ALOT more of humility in it. Specially the way you're referring back to your case on me Day 1.

ICE - I see your logic, but I didn't see the need to drag it on when we have Klazam cornered here. I'm with RC - tomorrow will be appropriate but today is just not the call.

I quote this for truth. It should also be noticed that ICE's reasoning has a bit too much PR's in it than one might expect in a mini normal. At least, from my experience.

As for Ythan, I usually see him play a bit more aggressively, but then again, I remember one game like that where he was a lyncher. In any case, AT BEST the way he's been playing is null.

Also, there's something about Pope... the way he's posting seems somewhat weird, even though I can't quite put my finger on what, yet.

[Exilon]

forgot to add, I'm willing to (obviously) lynch Klazam today, but would like for the rest of the players to post. I'm also specially interested in Ythan's response to Klazam's case. Please do not hammer.

[ICEninja]

ICE - I see your logic, but I didn't see the need to drag it on when we have Klazam cornered here. I'm with RC - tomorrow will be appropriate but today is just not the call.

If you'll notice in my 342, I changed my mind about the mass claim in agreement with you.

How is it hilarious? Popcorn is obvious and best way of doing it. I volunteered to go first and I picked who I thought to go second. Then you want to quicklynch Klazam because you are "confident" he is scum.

It was "hilarious" because you began a mass claim before everyone was even in agreement. That was very poor form, though I'm not sure it's scummy.

It should also be noticed that ICE's reasoning has a bit too much PR's in it than one might expect in a mini normal. At least, from my experience.

If scum has a PR, it would be unusual for town to NOT have 3 PRs. We know there is either a vig or SK. I don't see SKs running around minis too often, so I'm going to run with the assumption that it was a vig. Likewise, we have some kind of kill prevention (unless scum simply messed up, which I've seen happen before in a couple games). That would indicate a doctor, role blocker, or jail keeper as suitable roles for normal games. Role blocker is unlikely because scum had one. Therefore it is (fairly) safe to assume that there is either a doctor or jail keeper.

If Klazam is indeed a miller, than it is safe to say we have a cop. Even if there isn't, a doctor/vig/cop is pretty standard. If we have a jail keeper instead of doc, it is possible that the JK counts as our informative role, and we have something less powerful than a cop.

If Rat's death was caused by an SK and we don't have a vig, then there's no telling what kind of crazy town PRs will be flying around a mass claim tomorrow.

I know it seems like I'm dwelling a lot on the PRs, but I win or lose games by how well they perform. I don't always have as much faith in them as I do myself as a PR, so that's why I wanted the claim. My single best skill in mafia is setup dissection and using logic gained from set information to win the game.

[Space Pope]

ICE- 1) wasn't asking you 2) Agar found it hilarious that I was dictating the DIRECTION not that I was starting. He has a qualm with going second.

[Exilon]

@Ice: With that reasoning I can agree ; I haven't played many minis, but generally I don't see Docs paired with cops and vigs :s Doc/SK/RB I can see, not the other one, not counting with one-shot cases, which I've seen more than once. That's my only note.

[lewarcher82]

Votecount 2.1

1. Shattered Viewpoint
2. Necessary Evil
3. Space Pope
4. Ythan -1 (Klazam)
5. ICEninja
6. RedCoyote

7. Klazam -5 (AGar, Necessary Evil, Erratus Apathos, RedCoyote, ICEninja)

L-1

8. Exilon
9. Erratus Apathos
10. Maemuki
11. AGar -1 (Space Pope)

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline is Sunday 27 th March 2011 at 10:00 PM German Time (GMT+1)

[Klazam]

Hey all.

I just realized something. ICEninja said that a hammer should not happen soon, but he placed the L-1 vote, Which seems like he is inviting a hammer to happen. Hmm?

Set-up speculation: I'm sure theres a cop since I'm a miller. There is either a vig or a sk, because of the second mafia death. There's also a doctor or a jailkeeper due to no town deaths. I'm assuming 3 mafia, because that's the norm. I believe that it's a vig who killed pappum rat, because he looked quite scummy with that hammer of his, which makes him a perfect vigkill. If it was a SK, i think a more protown player would have died.

Anything I can do to contribute to the town? I can read players, give my opinions, analyze votes, make poetry, whatever.

[Shattered Viewpoint]

I'm pretty convinced that Klazamamam is the right lynch for today. I'm willing, like Exi, to hammer, but Ythan really needs to weigh in first. (Also, anyone else who hasn't yet posted.)

Anything I can do to contribute to the town? I can read players, give my opinions, analyze votes, make poetry, whatever.

I could go for a sandwich. And some ice cream.

[AGar]

How is it hilarious? Popcorn is obvious and best way of doing it. I volunteered to go first and I picked who I thought to go second. Then you want to quicklynch Klazam because you are "confident" he is scum.

unvote

vote: AGAR

Because one player doesn't just get to choose "Ok, we're massclaiming, I'm starting and this is who's going second." That gives scum an opportunity to go "HERPA DERPA ME FIRST, THIS IS MY SUPER-AWESOME FAKECLAIM"

ICE- 1) wasn't asking you 2) Agar found it hilarious that I was dictating the DIRECTION not that I was starting. He has a qualm with going second.

lolno.

Oh wheeeeere oh wheeeeere has Ythan gone now... Oh wheeeeere oh where can he beeeeee?

[Klazam]

Assuming I'm town, what would the best thing i can do for you all before I'm lynched? I recognize that my lynch is pretty much unavoidable, but i want the town to win, so what can i do to help this happen?

[ICEninja]

I just realized something. ICEninja said that a hammer should not happen soon, but he placed the L-1 vote, Which seems like he is inviting a hammer to happen. Hmm?

There are benefits to putting a scum suspect to L-1 that putting someone at L-2 does not have. You haven't shown any additional indication of being scum having been at L-1 so it hasn't paid off, but I'm voting you because I genuinely think you are the best lynch for today. Just because I don't think your lynch should happen YET doesn't mean I shouldn't vote you yet (assuming my vote isn't the hammer, of course. Which it wasn't.)

Assuming I'm town, what would the best thing i can do for you all before I'm lynched? I recognize that my lynch is pretty much unavoidable, but i want the town to win, so what can i do to help this happen?

If you speak from the heart, then a case against Ythan (as detailed as possible) would be good, and any other secondary scum suspects you have. Also analyzing who the weakest members on your wagon and why, as well as everyone's reactions to your play, would give us a jump start in to day 3. If you do indeed flip town, there will be some players who have been more opportunistic than others, and you'll have an unbiased view if you indeed are town.

Honestly if you're the last scum, you may as well just self hammer at this point because your team has lost the game. If you are indeed the last scum then I genuinely feel bad for your team, but there's no reason to stretch it out longer than necessary. If you genuinely are town aligned, then what I said above is probably the most you can help us.

[Space Pope]

How is it hilarious? Popcorn is obvious and best way of doing it. I volunteered to go first and I picked who I thought to go second. Then you want to quicklynch Klazam because you are "confident" he is scum.

unvote

vote: AGAR

Because one player doesn't just get to choose "Ok, we're massclaiming, I'm starting and this is who's going second." That gives scum an opportunity to go "HERPA DERPA ME FIRST, THIS IS MY SUPER-AWESOME FAKECLAIM"

That doesn't even make sense.
1) This makes the assumption that you think I am scum, which isn't likely as 4 scum is improbable in a mini normal and the fact that you are so damn certain that Klazam is scum that you are quick to end the day with his head on a pike
2) This is a mini NORMAL. There are no super awesome claims available that has ill chance of being countered. Since when do scum want to fakeclaim first, unless it's a VT? It's more plausable, nay likely, that scum would want to avoid a massclaim especially when they are the last one alive.

[Klazam]

Not scum, so not self-hammering.

I'll get to work on that case.

Thoughts on my wagon- I'm not sure why Space Pope is defending me. Also, Shattered's support of my lynch is amazingly weak.

Quick question- Do i also post my town reads or do i keep that under wraps?

[Ythan]

Morning folks. I've been out of town the past two days or so, so, catching up.

[Space Pope]

Not scum, so not self-hammering.

I'll get to work on that case.

Thoughts on my wagon- I'm not sure why Space Pope is defending me. Also, Shattered's support of my lynch is amazingly weak.

Quick question- Do i also post my town reads or do i keep that under wraps?

I found you bringing up that I missed you in my intro to D2 post as pro-town, since there should only be 1 scum who is running on self-preservation (and the outcome of including you would indicate you were worse than the others is not self-preservation).

What do you think of Agar?

[Klazam]

I believe that AGar is town based on the way he responded to my miller claim. Mostly my intuition. His posting in this game does nothing to make me believe that he is scum too.

[Klazam]

Nevermind. I changed my mind. I dont think Ythan is scum. My case with himn was based on the premise he refused to take stances with Moz's lynch. When i looked over his posts, i found that he attacked penpen/budja/Rat, who was scum. In that case, his not taking a stance on Moz is not a scumtell, because he did take a stance on Pen/Bud/rat.

Second suspect: RedCoyote. Reading over him now.

[Klazam]

Here’s my analysis of RC.

I'm confirming that I understand my role and win condition.

I find this a very odd way to confirm. RC, can you point to a game you have played where you was town and had the same type of confirmation?

[SNIP]

I really don't like the wagon on Erratus at all. I feel like AGar is the only person who is even remotely justified in their vote on him. There is very probably scum somewhere on the wagon of people with weak votes on him.

I get the same impression.

---

Sound familiar? I'm not distorting facts. You directly said you wanted to start a bandwagon. Or are you just distorting facts?

You're dodging the point though. EA has been the first voter, so your accusations that he is looking for "quick-wagons" is unwarranted.

---

That is a FACT. It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT.

Your blowing this issue out of proportion multiple times looks desperate.

[SNIP]

In this post, when taken in context, RC parrots others’ words.

[SNIP]

I understood what he said about EA and I can definitely see that coming from a town player. I don't want to go into too much detail about it because I don't want to make his defense for him. I have an even read at the moment and I don't think leaving my vote on him will accomplish anything.

This is very town sounding, so much so that I felt the need to actually quote it and tell you that. Don't let me forget I said this, NE. I'm feeling pretty good about a lot of people so far. ICE, AGar, EA, NE, Ythan, Mae, and Exilon all seem like they're on the up and up.

plague (Space Pope) is still the best wagon around right now.

I wouldn't criticize the moz wagon either. Mae is right to pressure Klazam a bit. These three players (and possibly Fatso) could all use attention right now.

Look at bolded. This is the last post RC makes about SP before he jumps off SP’s wagon, onto the mozamis wagon, at sixth with a weak reasoning (“he's not going to be helpful to us regardless of his alignment.”) I noticed that he totally dropped the SpacePope wagon, and forgot about it. Odd.

Vote: Klazam

Even if he is just a Miller, it's a good political tactic to just use a lynch on him now.

Assuming we have a Cop, coupled with the fact that there's probably a Vigilante out there, that should cover some 4 or 5 people by investigation, PR, or likely townie given the moz wagon. At that point the lynch will probably be narrowed down to some 4 people or so.

[SNIP]

Either a distressed town or a panicky scum. Either way, if this is his idea of moving forward in this game, then

he's not going to be helpful to us regardless of his alignment.

Unvote

;

vote: mozamis

See the similiarity? Regardless of alignment, hes happy to lynch both of us. Sounds like he’s playing it safe. (The reason why I say this applies even if Moz was RC’s scumbuddy, because there was always the chance a lynch could not happen. If Moz turns out to be scum, great, RC had a vote(GoodBus), if the lynch died or became much weaker, or if someone else looks worse, RC can yank his vote, claiming that he never believed in that lynch.)

unvote, vote RC

I feel more sure that RC is scum.

[Ythan]

Well I was most suspicious of rat, for that obviously scummy hammer, but it looks like someone handled that. I had a case ready and everything. Looks like I'll have to go do more reading.

Since day 1 and night 1 went so ridiculously well, it might actually make sense to do a mass claim and just mop up. There should be no way town is losing this game.

I do not see town motivation for this.

There are 11 players here now. A scum died during the night. This means either there another killing role out there, or it’s a serial killer (or a redirector, but I’m discounting this because it means we pretty much already won here)

I do not know if it’s a good idea (due to my relative inexperience) but I think we could ask the vig to claim. If theres a claim, we know that there is only one scum left in the game. If not, we can safely infer a serial killer here, I believe.

Now, on to my suspicion: I ISO’d everyone. They all come off as feeling town to me, except for Ythan. Why? Because of his relation with Moz- He did not take a hard stance on the matter. It felt as though he pointed out minor scummy things from Moz and was not trying to do much of questioning or anything of Moz whatsoever. Ythan also subtly defended Moz, when he inexplicably joined into my discussion with exilion. I personally think that the semantics that I was using was very stupid now. I’m curious why he joined in. Also of note is this post. It doesn’t sit right with me.

We've got a good 5 or so days before we should start thinking about forcing a claim, so give me some time to solidify my reads on players other than moz (who I have spent extra time on) before we put him at L-1.

The point is not to put off claims as long as possible. The whole point of a claim is to determine if we don't want to lynch the player

and find someone else in the remaining time.

I believe that Ythan is the third scum here.

vote Ythan

Combination of vig-fishing and accusing me based on explaining what claims are for. Looks like he's about to be lynched, will read on.

[Ythan]

what's your rationale for wanting to lynch me?

I would like to ask Klazam this question myself.

[Ythan]

Now, on to my suspicion: I ISO’d everyone. They all come off as feeling town to me, except for Ythan. Why? Because of his relation with Moz- He did not take a hard stance on the matter. It felt as though he pointed out minor scummy things from Moz and was not trying to do much of questioning or anything of Moz whatsoever. Ythan also subtly defended Moz, when he inexplicably joined into my discussion with exilion. I personally think that the semantics that I was using was very stupid now. I’m curious why he joined in. Also of note is this post. It doesn’t sit right with me.

We've got a good 5 or so days before we should start thinking about forcing a claim, so give me some time to solidify my reads on players other than moz (who I have spent extra time on) before we put him at L-1.

The point is not to put off claims as long as possible. The whole point of a claim is to determine if we don't want to lynch the player

and find someone else in the remaining time.

I believe that Ythan is the third scum here.

vote Ythan

People seem to be waiting for me to weigh in before the hammer so here goes. The two parts of this case are the moz part and the Klazam doesn't know how the fuck claiming works part. The latter I don't think needs explanation, unless someone asks me. The former he says I didn't take a stance on moz and defended him. I don't get the purpose of the part about Exilon. If there is one he can explain. I don't think I was neglecting Moz, and I don't know why he thinks I was defending.

[Klazam]

Ythan-read post 368

[Ythan]

Then I see no reason not to hammer you.