Open 290 - Double Day (Game Over)

[bvoigt]

Hi, everyone! Please note that my name is spelled bvoigt, without an H.

VOTE: Number 58 because the first to be voted

must

be scum.

[bvoigt]

I dislike a wagon being 1/3rd of the way from RVS when the votes on 58 seemed joking and whimsical
I would encourage you all to join Hiraki or, you know, actually lynch scum with Singer and I.

UNVOTE: Number 58
VOTE: Furcolow

Why would you be worried about a 3-vote wagon when it's 9 to lynch?

[bvoigt]

Sorry but TBH, it really wasn't a good point. Plus, I don't like that you feel the need to justify changing away from your RVS vote.

UNVOTE: Furcolow
VOTE: Meransiel

[bvoigt]

Unvote, Vote: nachomomma8

That's annoying spam verging on trolling. Stop or die.

Also, thanks for the links twistedspoon. Forgot to do that earlier =P

But does it make him more likely to be scum?

I love how you are accusing me of this, yet adhering to what I told you to do (get off the RVS bandwagon)

Well yeah, I changed my random vote as soon as I had a serious reason.

[bvoigt]

nacho, wanna add some content rather that just post that stuff over and over again.

Agreed, but you haven't added any content yourself. Don't you think this is pretty hypocritical?

[bvoigt]

Unvote, Vote: nachomomma8

That's annoying spam verging on trolling. Stop or die.

Also, thanks for the links twistedspoon. Forgot to do that earlier =P

But does it make him more likely to be scum?

This is a serious question, BTW. DrBokchoy, I'd also like you to answer this, please.

[bvoigt]

Just surprised is all. I mean, everybody needs pressure, if a wagon is already half-started, why abandon it and go for someone new?

Not a bad strategy, no, just unexpected.

Put any questions, point to anything I've said and done that looked scummy, and I'll gladly answer.

I'm not sure how to explain it, but I don't like this post at all.

[bvoigt]

@Mod:

I think you have Nacho listed twice (once under Confid, once under Meran).

[bvoigt]

You're right - I've been avoiding the questions.

My vote, on nachomomma, at that point, was strictly a pressure vote. I avoided the questions because stating that something is a pressure vote defeats the purpose of a pressure vote. I thought that with some pressure, we'd get some explanations for the lists and maybe some actual content, instead of, what is right now, total spam.

This is a fairly reasonable explanation.

[bvoigt]

@Meransiel: What gives you town reads on Hiraki, me, and Number 58? Also, why did you feel the need to mention some of your null reads when you didn't list everyone in the game?

BTW, I really don't know what to think of Furc. Silverbullet looks town, though.

[bvoigt]

You could just go to the first page, you know. DrBokchoy, Hazard, Klazam....

[bvoigt]

I had some time to do a quick read-through. I actually agree with Apokalyptika on his Nacho vote. I don't like the gambit and I don't see it helping town at this point.

vote: nachomama

It may not be very helpful, but what makes Nacho's actions more likely to come from scum than town?

[bvoigt]

It would be omgus if I would be voting you for it. It was just that your reasons to vote was a bland repetition of a wrong argument. You weren't conservative with your vote, you were just

absent

for most of the time, chap.

I don't really like this response. What difference does it make if he was OMGUS'ing or not? As you've said yourself, arguing semantics rather than the actual point is not good.

[bvoigt]

It would be omgus if I would be voting you for it. It was just that your reasons to vote was a bland repetition of a wrong argument. You weren't conservative with your vote, you were just

absent

for most of the time, chap.

I don't really like this response. What difference does it make if he was OMGUS'ing or not? As you've said yourself, arguing semantics rather than the actual point is not good.

Not when it defeats an argument entirely.

And how does arguing over the definition of OMGUS defeat his argument? It may make his argument look weaker, but it doesn't address the actual point.

[bvoigt]

And how does arguing over the definition of OMGUS defeat his argument? It may make his argument look weaker, but it doesn't address the actual point.

There was no actual point in it. He said my accusations on him bandwagoning are silly, when

the topic was full of people justifying why I would be a good vote

. See the contradiction there? I don't need to defeat a player which defeats himself.

But why did you bother saying, "It would be omgus if I would be voting you for it"?

[bvoigt]

But why did you bother saying, "It would be omgus if I would be voting you for it"?

Because he accused me of omgusing.

Yeah, and I don't see why a townie would be concerned enough about being accused of OMGUS that he would try to invalidate the accusation on a technicality.

[bvoigt]

Meransiel and DrBokchoy.

[bvoigt]

Meransiel and DrBokchoy.

both seem like easy lynches... popular.
why these two?

Meransiel- He hasn't done anything overly scummy, but you can ISO me to find some little things I don't like; for example, this post:

Just surprised is all. I mean, everybody needs pressure, if a wagon is already half-started, why abandon it and go for someone new?

Not a bad strategy, no, just unexpected.

Put any questions, point to anything I've said and done that looked scummy, and I'll gladly answer.

DrBokchoy- It seems like much of his content is hypocritically asking Nacho to provide content. Here is his second post of the game:

nacho, wanna add some content rather that just post that stuff over and over again.

[bvoigt]

DrBokchoy- It seems like much of his content is hypocritically asking Nacho to provide content. Here is his second post of the game:

nacho, wanna add some content rather that just post that stuff over and over again.

that doesn't seem like a townie reaction from DrBokChoy to you?

No, why?

[bvoigt]

I'm thinking Nacho is town here. His play doesn't seem much like it did in Outdoorsmen Mafia 2. I still want some content, though.

[bvoigt]

The deadline is under a week away, so I think it's time to start forming larger wagons. Our top 3 at the moment are Meran, Nacho, and Apokalyptica. I still think Meransiel is the best choice for today. Apok isn't bad either-- she hasn't really done anything major, but I get a mild scum read. Nacho, on the other hand, is probably town.

[bvoigt]

I feel like I should be posting more content, but not much has really caught my attention in the last few pages. If you're wondering why Nacho is town, his play seems different from how I've seen him play as scum, and ISO #19 is pretty good.

[bvoigt]

I've never played with Nacho before, but has he ever pulled a gambit like this as town?

Well, has he ever pulled a gambit like this as scum?

[bvoigt]

I've never played with Nacho before, but has he ever pulled a gambit like this as town?

Well, has he ever pulled a gambit like this as scum?

You're the one saying he didn't do this as scum. If he does this as town, it would be a town-tell. If he doesn't do this as town, then it means nothing more than that he's decided to try something different in this game, and you clearing him on that basis is scummy.

Exactly...he was doing something different with the gambit, and you're trying to make it into a scumtell.

UNVOTE: Meransiel
VOTE: Apokalyptica

I think she may have trapped herself with her own words here.

[bvoigt]

mer will end up being a lylo hazard anyways. The sooner he goes, the clearer things get

You're probably right, but I've become more confident that Apok is scum.

[bvoigt]

I would rather lynch Nacho, though. He’s not acting in a pro-town manner

anymore

.

It was a catch-up post, so I'm assuming she thought he was town at one point, and then read a few more pages and changed her mind.

[bvoigt]

Oh, in that case I agree. The gambit was a null-tell; however, the rest of his play feels different from what I've seen when he was scum. However:

it means nothing more than that he's decided to try something different in this game, and you clearing him on that basis is scummy.

Since you say that Nacho is scum because of the gambit, what makes you disagree with this?

[bvoigt]

You know what? I'm willing to hammer. Meransiel, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

[bvoigt]

Ah well, the deadline's coming up and he'd just be lynched tomorrow anyway.

UNVOTE: Apok
VOTE: Meransiel

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Apokalyptica

I'm still happy with this.

[bvoigt]

Um...Meransiel hasn't flipped yet, right?

FoS: All of you fruitlessly wailing 'Meransiel is town'

especially if he actually is.

So cool. You are scum.

Vote Apok

This is my day two vote. No matter what the flip is I am going to vote Apok, although I would be willing to say that he is going to flip town, as almost all of the obviously town players are off the wagon, it does not change anything about Apok being mafia.

Vote Nobody Special

His vote on Apok makes it sound like he knows that Apok is going to flip as town, which is why he is lining up the lynch of me who was pushing Apok for a large amount of the first day. Even his vote or Merin sounds like it was made with the intention to lynch Apok the next day.

You sounded positive that Apok was scum, so why the change of plans? BTW, I'll do some rereading in the next few days.

[bvoigt]

You sounded positive that Apok was scum, so why the change of plans? BTW, I'll do some rereading in the next few days.

The answer was right in your quote

His vote on Apok makes it sound like he knows that Apok is going to flip as town, which is why he is lining up the lynch of me who was pushing Apok for a large amount of the first day. Even his vote or Merin sounds like it was made with the intention to lynch Apok the next day.

Right back to where we started now.

Vote Nobody Special

You made it sound like the read was very strong, then changed your mind at the drop of a hat?

[bvoigt]

Town

Twistedspoon- He pushed heavily on Meransiel the entire day.
Hiraki- I don't think scum would blatantly call their partner town the way he did.
ConfidAnon- I didn't like his Nacho vote at first, but the explanation seemed sincere.
silverbullet999- He put a lot of effort into scumhunting in the early part of the game.
Nachomamma8- I still don't think he's playing to his scum meta.
Furcolow- This one's mostly a gut read.
Klazam- His early pressure on Meransiel also seems sincere.

Null

Nobody Special
singersigner
Hero764

Scum

HackerHuck- He expressed suspicion of Meransiel, but stayed with a weaker vote on Nacho. Also, in ISO #8, Klazam had 4 suspects and he only wanted more explanation about Meran (scum getting worried about his buddy?)
Number58- He's explained his flip-flop between ISOs #12 and #13, but I don't really buy it.

VOTE: Number58

Also, @singer: Why did you think Meransiel was town?

[bvoigt]

I have never seen a townie play like nacho has done.

Hopefully won't again

Actually...I didn't see this before. Doesn't the bolded say that Nacho is definitely town?

[bvoigt]

@Twisted: I don't really like how you keep using Hiraki's poor reads in the past to discredit this one. Also, what do you think of #671?

[bvoigt]

I have never seen a townie play like nacho has done.

Hopefully won't again

Actually...I didn't see this before. Doesn't the bolded say that Nacho is definitely town?

no

Yes, it does.

[bvoigt]

I have never seen a townie play like nacho has done.

Hopefully won't again

Actually...I didn't see this before. Doesn't the bolded say that Nacho is definitely town?

If there's a slip, it's more of "I have never seen a townie play like nacho has done." rather than "Hopefully won't again."

Think about it...does the word "again" make any sense if he's never seen it before and he doesn't know Nacho is town?

[bvoigt]

UNVOTE: Number58
VOTE: Twistedspoon

[bvoigt]

goddammit hiraki

TS is now obvtown.

Why?

[bvoigt]

UNVOTE: Twistedspoon

Can you explain now Nacho?

[bvoigt]

It was an

un

vote.

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Number58

I don't think he's sincerely scumhunting. If he was so sure that Apok was scum, and then NS was scummy enough to make him completely change his mind, why is #58 willing to change wagons so easily?

[bvoigt]

VOTE: L to the L to the D or simply... LLD

You've made a ton of contentless posts lately. Why?

[bvoigt]

Why?

Why is he active lurking and being opportunistic?

Let think about this. Carry the one...

Could it be that he's scum? =O

Like, I know you guys have major apathy right now (ConfidAnon is gone 24 days now...) but you've got some obvious scum that need cleaning out.

He was putting a lot of effort into the early part of the game. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2889039

[bvoigt]

@LLD: Have you read the entire thread? Also, what happened to your VCA thinking that Furc was opportunistic scum?

[bvoigt]

I'm pretty sure LLD is town here. Silverbullet might be scum, but I'm going to stick with my Number58 vote for now.

[bvoigt]

UNVOTE: Number58
VOTE: silverbullet

Might as well.

[bvoigt]

Question to you, BVoigt:
What made you change your mind from

Silverbullet might be scum, but I'm going to stick with my Number58 vote for now.

to

UNVOTE: Number58
VOTE: silverbullet

Might as well.

which particular reason or argument etc.

I realized that a Number58 lynch isn't happening today...I'd be pretty surprised if it's someone other than Silver or LLD. LLD is a definite town read, and Silver looks mildly scummy. As for particular reasons, he simply seems to be flailing. I also like Toogeloo's reasoning in #879.

[bvoigt]

@bvoigt...how do you feel about LLD's attitude?

I don't really mind it.

LLD is a definite town read

why do you think players such as Nacho and Singer don't share this view?

I don't know. Why are you asking?

[bvoigt]

@bvoigt...how do you feel about LLD's attitude?

I don't really mind it.

Does it reflect that of town? How do you feel as though she's contributed to this town's scumhunting? Do you feel as though, if town, she might have gained a little tunnel vision, considering she admittedly hadn't even caught up in the game yet?

Yeah, I think it's a townish attitude, and she's obviously scumhunting. And yeah, she has tunnel vision right now, but I also have a scum read on Silver.

[bvoigt]

I realized that a Number58 lynch isn't happening today...I'd be pretty surprised if it's someone other than Silver or LLD. LLD is a definite town read, and Silver looks mildly scummy. As for particular reasons, he simply seems to be flailing. I also like Toogeloo's reasoning in #879.

[bvoigt]

It's true that the fake hammer made you and Meran a little less likely to be buddies. However, that one specific towntell was pretty easy to fake. And your interactions during the rest of the day, which are more difficult to fake, do seem scummy.

[bvoigt]

It's true that the fake hammer made you and Meran a little less likely to be buddies. However, that one specific towntell was pretty easy to fake. And your interactions during the rest of the day, which are more difficult to fake, do seem scummy.

Not to mention that by Silver using it as an argument for himself as town, it negates it as a town tell.

It means there is plausible cause for him to have done it just for the town read.

This is also true.

-Bvoi

And your interactions during the rest of the day, which are more difficult to fake, do seem scummy.

May I ask you to expand on this?

I'm referring to what Toogeloo said...you didn't really interact with Meran for most of the day, and then when you did vote him, you didn't even seem convinced that he was scum.

Nacho's probably town... least for now.

I don't see the fur lynch happening, and he's won some slight town points.
thus i'll move it to one of the bigger wagons... and my pick is...

VOTE: meransiel

I just noticed something, BTW...before this, you were calling Nacho out for not delivering content. Why did you change your mind?

Unvote
Vote: Nobody Special

Back here.

Why aren't you commenting on LLD or Silver?

eh

I just want to say that if silver flips town, then one of Hikari or delta is definitely scum

but they shouldn't have to worry about that since they're 99% certain he won't

Why couldn't it be town-on-town?

[bvoigt]

@Khan: What gives you a town read on Number58?

[bvoigt]

@Khan: What gives you a town read on Number58?

He posts sensible and thought-out arguments. He scum-hunts by pressuring people who perform illogical actions. He switches tracks only when the trail runs cold. He hasn't dropped any scum-tells. In other words, obv-town.

The one point against him is that he's been really lurky since... April started. Maybe a little before that.

He looked good early in the game, but in the last month or so, he's done almost nothing besides checking in every few days and changing his vote.

[bvoigt]

You know what?

UNVOTE: silverbullet
VOTE: Number58

I'll trust Nacho for now about Silver.

[bvoigt]

@Furc: Meta? We've never completed a game together, as far as I know.

[bvoigt]

@Furc: Meta? We've never completed a game together, as far as I know.

@bvoigt - Why do you trust Nachomamma8 about his silverbullet999 read, but not his singersigner reading?

Good question...I guess town reads are slightly more reliable than scum reads. Plus, singer and Number58 could both be scum.

[bvoigt]

@Number58 - Any reason you're only posting every 3 days?

When the game degrades into what LLD and silver are doing, it makes me not enjoy the game and not want to post. I would almost be happy lynching LLD simply because the game would be fun again.

Also policy lynches are very good things. If more people liked to policy lynch, games would be better for everyone.

Weren't you posting just as infrequently before LLD joined the game?

[bvoigt]

VOTE: singersigner

[bvoigt]

I might be willing to hammer. This game needs a flip.

Nice OMGUS there, silver.

Why wait till May 3? Trying to stay alive a few more days?

Although I do think TS is getting scummier by the day with all the lurking. I should go back and re-read some things.

This is the worst post.

I agree. However, someone said NS is town for meta reasons. What are they?

[bvoigt]

hi guys

before you hammer, does nacho still have a town read on me?

Why do you ask?

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Nobody Special

Works for me.

[bvoigt]

I have never seen a townie play like nacho has done.

Hopefully won't again

Actually...I didn't see this before. Doesn't the bolded say that Nacho is definitely town?

If there's a slip, it's more of "I have never seen a townie play like nacho has done." rather than "Hopefully won't again."

Think about it...does the word "again" make any sense if he's never seen it before and he doesn't know Nacho is town?

This makes it very unlikely that Nacho is scum.

[bvoigt]

BUT I'VE DECIDED YOU'RE NOT SCUM.

NS IS SCUM.

[bvoigt]

Woo! I told you Nacho was town. Good game everyone, and thanks to Steph and Starbuck for modding.