Mini 1130 - A Fishbowl Invasion by Ninja Monkeys! - Over

[Sundy]

DH found the Akira scum-slip before Parama did, TS

[Oso]

..
@Oso: "I don't think scum screwed up by NKing Parama" -- I don't understand this statement, can you elaborate? Why would they have wanted to kill him if they knew he was on their team? Also is it guaranteed that scum killed him as opposed to a vigilante or something? (I'm not used to this set-up)

I'm not sure I understand my statement either. Just don't see a player like Parama getting NKed by accident in a game where Mafia knows there is a traitor out there. Depending on your personal opinion of Parama as a Mafia player (he's fairly high on my personal scale of 'good' mafia players both from playing a game with him before this and by reading games that he happened to be in), he'd be a definite candidate for recruitment before ending up on the NK list in this game.

Currently trying to reconcile that thought as that is what caused the mental disconnect I mentioned earlier. It is possible that he was recruited I guess, but something ([winger] maybe) interfered with it so Mafia thought he was town. Aside from that possibility, it looks more and more like the NK was done deliberately with knowledge he was the traitor, at least from my POV.

But take that with a grain of salt. My opinion of his ability may not be shared by others so that could invalidate my train of thought completely as to whether he was a high priority for recruitment before NKing.

[Twistedspoon]

DH found the Akira scum-slip before Parama did, TS

even more reason why it's hard to accuse him then (although I'm sure it was Parama who found it, but DH voted earlier =|)

[Twistedspoon]

It is possible that he was recruited I guess, but something ([winger] maybe) interfered with it so Mafia thought he was town.

If that is true then [winger] is our hero

[Sundy]

It is possible that he was recruited I guess, but something ([winger] maybe) interfered with it so Mafia thought he was town. Aside from that possibility, it looks more and more like the NK was done deliberately with knowledge he was the traitor, at least from my POV.

But take that with a grain of salt. My opinion of his ability may not be shared by others so that could invalidate my train of thought completely as to whether he was a high priority for recruitment before NKing.

The possibility that the recruitment failed is the ONLY one I can think of why they would knowingly want to kill their teammate. Why are these two separate possibilities in your mind?

@TS, no: DH found it and voted in the same post, Parama came in two posts after. I do agree that this gives DH town points.

[DemonHybrid]

On the one hand I'm not sure DH's reasons on sundy hold much water. Basing your two townie reads off of past games seems slightly weak to me. It's evidence which we can't challenge

On the other hand It's hard to accuse DH of anything since he started the akira wagon (although that being said it was Parama, the mafia traitor, who found the scumslip) :/

I'll have to look elsewhere for now =|

It's the best I have on anyone at the moment. Sure, all of those things alone do not a scum signal make, but combined it raises some red flags for me.

And Sundy is correct; I was the one that found the scumslip.

[Twistedspoon]

you're right actually. This just confused me

Oh hey, a scumslip!

unvote, vote: Akira

but yeah, you found the scumslip for what it's worth.

[crazypianist1116]

Also I don't get why Pianist suggested Parama would finger the scum-team openly in the thread. However I do agree he was trying to be recruited by mentioning the traitor so often if you look back over his early posts.

If Parama knew who scum were (which as traitor he should), calling them out in such a cocky attitude would only get noticed by the actual people he was calling out and thus give him a higher chance of being recruited. I feel like an Oso flip would give us the most information regarding other players but I can't justify lynching Oso for it at this time...

I want to go back a reread with the context of a few more roles being revealed.

[Twistedspoon]

If Parama knew who scum were (which as traitor he should)

why do you think the traitor knows who the scum are? I had assumed that the traitor didn't know mafia and the mafia didn't know the traitor. Did anyone else think this?

I'd have imagined it too easy to be recruited if he knew who the scum were :/

[DemonHybrid]

From the wiki:

"The Traitor is a role with a pro-Mafia alignment that is not actually in the Mafia family. The Traitor knows who is in the Mafia, but the Mafia do not know who the Traitor is. The Traitor uses through his or her vote to keep the Mafia from getting lynched and wins with the Mafia."

I'm VERY willing to believe that Parama put the rest of the mafia on his vote list and pushed a bit too hard.

[crazypianist1116]

I feel like we argued earlier in thread over whether traitor knew who the scum were and came to the conclusion that not knowing was mean on the mod's part. I could be mixing it up with something else though. I'd imagine it's difficult if not impossible to get the mafia to pick up on recruit worthy behavior but the town to not if you don't know who the mafia is.
Preview edit: yeah...

[Twistedspoon]

So Parama's ISO should give us clues as to who the mafia is then?

Day 3 and things get interesting

[Sundy]

why do you think the traitor knows who the scum are? I had assumed that the traitor didn't know mafia and the mafia didn't know the traitor. Did anyone else think this?

I'd have imagined it too easy to be recruited if he knew who the scum were :/

Parama implies as much, but who knows whether you can believe him?

First off, I'd like to draw people's attention to the first post, specifically the part that confirms that there's at least 1 mafia traitor in the game. If people don't realize this, it could hurt, because what it means is that scum may well "bus" a buddy and not have a clue that they're bussing - if a mafia traitor is lynched, and they flip mafia traitor, we need to treat it as a town lynch in terms of VCA.

[DemonHybrid]

Maybe he didn't at first, but he definitely seems like the kind of player who would bus mafia who don't know that he's the traitor.

Definitely itching in the back of my mind.

Preview edit: I think so. Don't hold me to that 100%, but it's a strong inkling.

[DemonHybrid]

That P edit was for TS, by the way.

[Oso]

@TS. Actually, I don't think it's true, winger interfering with recruitment

Mae was in the game before N1 started. I checked. We didn't know it at the time but she was a Watcher so she should have been all over [winger]. Her actions the next day tell me she either didn't watch over [winger] and picked someone else or that she was interfered with so had no results to claim the next day. Yes, with Akira flipped scum, if she had results on a watch from a NKed town PR, I think she would have claimed D2. I would have. So she didn't have any usable results from her watch on [winger] and I do think she was watching him.

[winger] is most likely town. Even if he isn't, he's not the right choice for today. /obvisobv

Highest probability of getting a watcher hit as Mafia have no clue (other than speculation) that there is a Watcher in the game and winger's claimed role can prevent NKs.

We know winger didn't Jailkeep his killer, he's dead. He could have possibly jailed the mafia who was sent out to recruit but, until we get some evidence that Mafia have a blocking ability, it looks to me that [winger] jailed Mae.

winger could have possibly jailed Parama but I have never asked, or read, if the JK prevents other actions except NKs from affecting the jail target. According to the wiki, there is a variant of the JK that protects from all night actions so that could be what we are seeing here, without the name change to "Alien", obviously (I searched site-wide to see if I could find a JK discussion and I'm pretty sure one is there, I just can't find it at the moment as it's not obvious by reading topic names).

@Sundy. I'll grant you that that explanation makes the most sense and that it is the only one you are willing to entertain at the moment, you'll excuse me I hope, if I try and look at all options. No matter how bizarre they may look on the face of them because with the way our Watcher was acting D2, it looks like she had no results so no need to claim.

If I were scum in this game, from the winger claim on.....
N1:Kill Winger - Recruit Agar or Parama.
N2:If recruitment failed, kill last night's target and recruit the one I didn't try last night. If recruitment successful, start normal NKs
N3:If recruitment failed, kill last night's target and try another player using most dangerous player to least dangerous player as the criteria. If recruitment successful, start normal NKs....and on and on.

You can see by that, why I (from my own POV based on who I think the strongest players in this game are) think there is a good chance Parama may have been recruited already before he was night killed. Now if I can find any scenario where it makes sense for them to bus him after recruitment, then I might go with that.

Otherwise, I'm going to have to fall back on the "killed by accident thing" as sort of a default whether I want to or not.

[DemonHybrid]

He's voted Oso, Twisted (who's obvtown at this point) and HoS'ed Sundy.

I may have been wrong on my Oso read, but I'm definitely more willing to lynch Sundy first, as per my vote post. His play hasn't gelled at all, and it's hardly cohesive.

Preview edit: I don't think it would be mod-allowed if scum killed their own partner with their own knowledge, but it's an interesting theory. I don't see how it's useful though.

[Twistedspoon]

if Parama knew who the mafia were then my ISO of him seems to show Bub as possibly being the mafia. Well that's my interpretaion.
He never has a bad thing to say about Bub, just good things. Maybe he wanted Bub to recruit him.

i don't have time to quote the ISO now, but I reccomend you guys take a look through it. Parama probably knew the scum, as the wiki says, so his posts should have clues to the mafia which we could pick up on

I'll read the argument against Bub again tommorow

G'Night
~Twistedspoon

[Twistedspoon]

We know winger didn't Jailkeep his killer, he's dead. He could have possibly jailed the mafia who was sent out to recruit but, until we get some evidence that Mafia have a blocking ability, it looks to me that [winger] jailed Mae.

wait..

that implies there are 3 mafioso (dead akira, winger's killer, recruiter).

How do you know this? and how do you know a mafioso cannot both kill and recruit?

[Twistedspoon]

you seem to understand mafia mechanics much better than myself, Oso.

igmeou

[crazypianist1116]

Cecily was an antimiller IMO.
I need to reread. Post later today, since I'm at school atm.

I'm really, REALLY, wondering if this is true and just another fact to try and draw attention to him being traitor. In that case, there would probably be only 1 mafia left.

We know winger didn't Jailkeep his killer, he's dead. He could have possibly jailed the mafia who was sent out to recruit but, until we get some evidence that Mafia have a blocking ability, it looks to me that [winger] jailed Mae.

winger could have possibly jailed Parama but I have never asked, or read, if the JK prevents other actions except NKs from affecting the jail target. According to the wiki, there is a variant of the JK that protects from all night actions so that could be what we are seeing here, without the name change to "Alien", obviously (I searched site-wide to see if I could find a JK discussion and I'm pretty sure one is there, I just can't find it at the moment as it's not obvious by reading topic names).

Had [winger] jailed Parama and Mae targeted [winger], then Mae would have found who targeted [winger] and probably would have claimed D2. If Cecily, then this would confirm her D2 actions and the theory above so she wouldn't have to claim. She would not have to claim in that case since Cecily was such a big train. I digress, however. It might be a better idea to stop with hypothetical evidence and try to find scum with what they've said.

you seem to understand mafia mechanics much better than myself, Oso.

igmeou

What's wrong with understanding game mechanics?

[Sundy]

I may have been wrong on my Oso read, but I'm definitely more willing to lynch Sundy first, as per my vote post. His play hasn't gelled at all, and it's hardly cohesive.

"Hasn't gelled at all"?? That's not an argument. Don't try to pull what you did with RBT & Cecily again. I already demonstrated that the second of your 3 arguments against me is factually inaccurate, and all that's left is that 1) I got a prod and 2) I disagreed with Parama.

Personally I am looking at Oso and Agar most atm.

[Twistedspoon]

It strikes me as highly unlikely that we started with 3 scum + 1 traitor

This is what Oso is suggesting

[Twistedspoon]

We know winger didn't Jailkeep his killer, he's dead. He could have possibly jailed the mafia who was sent out to recruit but, until we get some evidence that Mafia have a blocking ability, it looks to me that [winger] jailed Mae.

seriously

how do you know there are 3 mafia + traitor?

killer + recruiter + dead akira

I'm seeing this as a scumslip until I get a second opinion.

VOTE: Oso

[crazypianist1116]

Twisted, mafia generally kill as a team. Recruitment I'm not sure how that happens but it could be a team ability as well.