Open 293 - Donner Party Mafia, Take Two (Game Over)

[tclawren]

/confirm

[tclawren]

VOTE: Escho

For getting banned and making our mod find a replacement.

[tclawren]

No, this isn't my first game (I have two other ones ongoing, many others in RL) and no, I don't think that my vote was really all that helpful. But honestly It was more of a joke than anything else.

[tclawren]

For crying out loud it's RVs, I thought these were supposed to be fun. Well, whatever.
VOTE: Magna

[tclawren]

I’ve found players not named UncertainKitten who go out of their way to avoid making a RVS or joke vote on an active player have a high correlation with being scum.

Since you seem new and joined Mafiascum on my birthday I’ll just ask straight out – are you Scum?

Preview Edit - Add folding immediately when questioned to my suspicions.

Is this really true? I'll have to keep that in my database to use at a later date. No, I am not scum. Are you?
(but in all seriousness, are you scum?)

I'm not sure what your preview edit means. Is that a question?

[tclawren]

DH said

: While still being joke votes, RVS votes are generally aimed to try to -end- the RVS stage. Since you're such a new player, I'm a bit split on the read I get from these posts so far, but there's a fine line between voting in a joking way but still trying to help, and voting in an unhelpful way. I'm just curious as to whether you're being genuine or not about it truly being a joke.

I need to know a little bit more about your experience. Tell me a little bit more about your history with mafia in general instead of mafiascum, since you don't have any completed games on site.

It was clearly a joke. How could it not be a joke? I just voted for someone that doesn't even exist for all we care.
I had might as well voted for the mod for not realizing that Escho was banned.

As for my previous experience, I've played mafia with friends for years but it never really that serious until college where there was a mafia club. I've played for a little while at Epicmafia, but I jumped ship to over here because I like the format and the userbase about a million times better.

Friend said

: Tclaw, why did you change your vote when pressured by DRK? I don't think that your vote was intended to be malicious. However, I dislike your reaction - shut down.

As a newbie I'm still trying to feel my way about the proper etiquette for playing here, and apparently one of the things I still don't get is how to do RVs. I've already been yelled at for not participating in them and it's a little frustrating to be reprimanded again for doing something silly during this stage of the game again.

So to answer your question, I changed it because I'm sick of being told I'm doing stuff wrong.

[tclawren]

Magna is gone, so can someone tell me why he would let everyone in on that he is very good at being town and inviting the scum to kill him? I do not understand this play in my limited abilities. if he's town i don't want scum to be killing the best players. and... why would he say this unless he has no fear of being killed? i'm concerned...

I wasn't going to answer this, but since...

He gets killed night 1 a lot. That was presumably just his way of establishing himself as a strong player for anyone unfamiliar with him. Then again, I probably shouldn't be answering for him, but oh well.

The question has already been answered. But I think the real answer is to see reactions like your's Lane. That and to generally screw with the everyone's head. Most people know that Magna is really good, so the potential gain from his mind games is really much greater for him than just clamming up about it.

[tclawren]

MoI said

: Why would you keep it in your database if you are unsure if it is true (which is inferred by your question)?

Do you not read the thread? I’ve already told you I’m not in my first post.

If it was true, which it seems that it sometimes is, then it would be handy in future games. If it wasn't true, then I would simply forget it.

I guess I didn't realize that you implicitly said you weren't scum by essentially saying you weren't mafia nor the SK.

MoI said

:A preview edit is created when someone Previews their post and sees others have posted while they were drafting. Responses are then edited in … thus the term Preview edit.

It wasn’t a question but an observation.

I knew what a preview edit was but I wasn't sure exactly what this particular one meant. Thanks for clarifying.


As for Lane, the post that is most troublesome for me is this one at the end #52

Lane said

: after all that, i REALLY do not know where to go with any of it

It always seems scummy to me when people go off on huge tangents like this one and basically say "But I don't know what this means. It's up to you guys to do something with this information." That said Lane already has 3 votes and I really don't want to keep pushing on this bandwagon.

Also I still want Shotty to realize that what he said was suspicious. So I will vote for him at least until he comes back.
VOTE: Shotty

[tclawren]

No. However, I think at this point in the game my suspicions on him are not enough to put him past halfway to the gallows. Add that to the existence of an another suspicious person in the game and my decision becomes a whole lot easier.

[tclawren]

Pappums said

: hey everyone, it looks like i have played with alot of yous guys before, so hello again.

while i can see moi's points against lane, i think it is more likely that it is because lane is new and that is why his posts sound the way they do. i also found magna's 'you should kill me tonight' post a bit off, but that may be because of dgb's repeated talk of a nk on herself in 1086. ever since that game i get suspicious when people start talking about being nk'ed.

vote demon hybrid

Why the vote on DH?

[tclawren]

Magna said

: He posted only twice at 15 and 17. Every single one of your posts aside from your confirm came after his posts, yet this is the first time you’ve even written his name.

When did his play suddenly become suspect to you?

It really didn't suddenly become suspect. When you and DRK brought up the point about the SK questioning, I thought it was a valid point and possibly worth voting for, but I refrained from saying anything because I would not be adding anything new to the table and therefore would just be cluttering the thread with nonessential stuff. But since MoI jumped wagons, I didn't want Shotty to think we had forgotten why there was a wagon on him in the first place.

====

DRK said

: On second thought, no I won't. Most of my reads at this point are almost purely gut and explaining it is counterproductive. I do have one kind of sketchy non-gut tell on him that I don't care to say just because it applies fairly heavily to me when I'm scum.

Are you saying that you won't potentially help the town because it might hinder you in future games? That's just selfish.

[tclawren]

@Friend

I can't tell, is this sarcasm? If not, who do you expect to be scum?

[tclawren]

I am town.

bit early to claim isn't it?

that and flailing and buddying make me feel that I can have some justification in placing my vote at this point in time

VOTE: Lane

This is lazy reasoning and definitely not worth putting someone to L-2. He was claiming town alignment. Which is something EVERYONE will do if pushed, or even asked casually. For example if I asked you what alignment you were, you would reply town no matter what alignment you actually were. This is a null tell for me.

So you voted to push someone closer to the gallows on absolutely horrible reasoning. Good job.

Twistedspoon: FOS

[tclawren]

HE ALREADY EXPLAINED THAT!

Post #92

Oh and as far as my buddy buddy with drk? i'm new, not an idiot. you can stop looking into that bull. if you can't see it was a response to his signature.

[tclawren]

@Twistedspoon

Do you have

anything

on Lane besides your silly buddying thing?

Also it's L-3. I forgot Friend's unvote.

[tclawren]

Interesting stuff about Andrew. There is a distinct difference when he plays as scum then when he plays as town. I think right now that he is the best lead, as I see Lane as a townie and I have a gut read of town on Twisted based off prior experience. The cases on Demonhybrid are not nearly persuasive enough to get my vote. And as for Lane vote on MoI...not even close to getting my vote. And I will switch my vote from Shotty because he will answer soon and the pressure that was on him has now dissipated.

UNVOTE: Shotty

VOTE: Andrew

[tclawren]

excuse me
what distinct difference fool?

Analogy time. If we were playing poker and I had a tell on you would I tell you what it was in the middle of the game? Of course not. Same idea here, if I express to you what I believe the difference in your town and scum games are, you could change your game and I have lost my edge.

consistency twisted. please switch your vote from me to singer for her blatant buddying

:/

no, that would surely be buddying to you then

anyways, you vote her if you don't like her posts; I'm not your voting tool :3

(note to self: if using sarcasm put in sarcasm tags so TS doesn't mistake it for seriousness.)

[tclawren]

Also,

@Mod, could you prod Mockingjaye? It has been 3 days and he has made one post. Thanks.

[tclawren]

Analogy time. If we were playing poker and I had a tell on you would I tell you what it was in the middle of the game? Of course not. Same idea here, if I express to you what I believe the difference in your town and scum games are, you could change your game and I have lost my edge.

How about a better analogy. You are playing poker and have a tell on someone. You have to convince the other players at the table that you have discovered said tell and that it means you have the better hand before cards are shown. Otherwise the hand is a push and no-one wins the pot.

Mafia is not Poker.

Point taken. Let me try to explain what I believe I see in Andrew's play, hopefully it's the same thing DRK saw. Feel free to ignore/correct this.

I believe that when Andrew plays as scum he is more interested in the game and posts more content. Paradoxically his play as scum is more pro-town than when he actually does get town. And his plays early in this game fit what I see as his scum game.

-------

The following group of lurkers has at least one scum in it – mockingjaye, pappums, drshotty and singersinger.

Are they all scum? Of course not but both statistically and behaviourally there is one scum blending in with his fellow low contributors. Possibly two since we have two independent factions. Don’t forget this list after I’m dead.

Of the people on this list I am the most concerned about Pappums. His posts have been very spread apart and with very little content, but they do show signs that he has been keeping up with reading the thread. In other words I'm accusing pappums of activelurking, which is totally scummy.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pappums

[tclawren]

I'm still feeling town from lane, though it's a bit of a weaker feeling than before, thanks to another pronoun snafu (this one is more suspicious than the first, IMO). TS however is smelling more and more scummy to me, but I'm still wary of his wagon. Something doesn't feel quite right about it. Unfortunately it seems everyone has decided it will be one of these two for the gallows today. :/

anyone else think there's a scum on my wagon?

It is very probable that there is at least one scum on your wagon. Why ask this question in the first place? Everyone who isn't voting for you and is not named mockingjaye is voting for someone that is voting for you, i.e. think there is scum on your wagon. What could you hope to achieve from this question besides make people suspect people other than you?

Also, I will not comment on an ongiong game.

Quote tag fixed

[tclawren]

I believe that when Andrew plays as scum he is more interested in the game and posts more content. Paradoxically his play as scum is more pro-town than when he actually does get town. And his plays early in this game fit what I see as his scum game.

So you find Andrew’s game here to be Pro-Town?

Before DRK mentioned a possible tell on him, I thought his play was pro-town. As for his play right now... I think it would be silly to say it is pro-town.

@MoI: Of your list of lurkers, who do you suspect the most?

@Twistedspoon: I'm confused about why lane is crossed out in your post. Are you saying that he is the scum on your wagon? Or are you saying there is another one?

[tclawren]

DRK posted his tell on Andrew at 108.

Andrew has 6 posts before that (ISO 0-5). Please tell me which ones looked Pro-Town and why.

Iso #1: He is one of the first to apply pressure on Lane. Even if his reasoning is suspect, he pressure is one reason why some of you are voting him currently.

I also think that his Iso #4 and #5 are also protown. #5 more so since it actually gives solidified reasoning for his actions.

[tclawren]

Hello to all the replacements, thanks for picking up the slack.

UNVOTE:

Xalxe has redeemed that spot enough for an unvote. But, still IGMEOU.

Twisted you are acting really, really scummy. Again. Those last votes have all been really, really bad. They don't make a whole lot of sense and a really, really rushed. You voted for Friend a half hour after you voted Andrew. Why? And the fact that you forgot to change your vote in the post and didn't immediately do an EBTWOP tells me you really don't place a lot of stock in your vote which is a huge anti-town tell for me. You have managed to destroy my gut town read of you with this play, along with the other strange things you've said over the past few days.

VOTE: Twistedspoon

[tclawren]

EBTWOP:

THAT IS L-1

[tclawren]

@Tclaw

– In looking through your ISO I noticed the following that I missed the first time –

(note to self: if using sarcasm put in sarcasm tags so TS doesn't mistake it for seriousness.)

I noticed this off-hand swipe at TS for questioning Lane’s comment about consistency. Why didn’t you comment about me in a similar fashion since I asked Lane directly also?

You looked at it differently than TS did. TS looked at as if Lane actually wanted him to change his vote. You took it as what it actually is, an attack on TS for his vote on Lane. You went to the heart of the matter. TS was so blind he couldn't get there.

[tclawren]

Twisted,
The vig is one of our two prs. You could have just killed him. That is so scummy.
I want you lynched so bad right now.

[tclawren]

UNVOTE:

THERE'S NO FUCKING DAY VIG!!!!

TWISTED, BREADCRUMBS ARE ONLY HELPFUL AFTER YOU CLAIM. THAT'S THE POINT OF A BREADCRUMB.
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Breadcrumb
SO DON'T BLAME TOWN IF YOU PLAY SCUMMY AND PEOPLE VOTE FOR YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO CLAIM (WHICH NO ONE WAS ASKING YOU TO YET ANYWAY)

I CHOSE TO IGNORE YOUR "DEBUNKING" BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT MY VOTE ONCE, WHICH IS IN YOUR BREADCRUMB. THE LOGIC DOESN'T MAKE SENSE IN THAT POST.

DON'T BLAME ME FOR VOTING FOR YOUR HORRIBLE SCUMMY PLAY.

[tclawren]

So, my being pissed at you makes me scum? Please enlighten me how that makes any sense at all.

If you are really who you say then why are you still on Friend? Why not switch to chesskid? The logic for a possible chesskid lynch coming from your viewpoint actually makes more sense. (basically chess can kill, I am vig Q.E.D. chess is scum. Your case against Friend: He doesn't back up his town reads and does them a lot.) Which case sounds more sound to you?

[tclawren]

erm.
firstly, the supposed 'breadcrumbs' are made after you were at L1 for ages? in fact, they were made yesterday. so yea, anyone can do that.
i am even do this now
violet
indigo
green

am i the vig? i dont think so
td:dr: no cc'ing.

anyone could make a breadcrumb from day 1, page 1

why does it matter when they were made?

Because ideal breadcrumbs are done as early as possible, to prevent people from asking this exact question.

[tclawren]

I disappeared because I was busy and this game wasn't going anywhere, with the small blabbering between people.

And frankly I didn't think your post required a response. It certainly wasn't a convincing argument.

I popped in when I did because that play did, and still does frankly, makes me upset.

In the future it's probably best to keep your mouth shut it if you see something like that. You're the vig, just pop them in the night.

[tclawren]

You're the vig, just pop them in the night.

>_>

That was my plan

but after you guys made me seem so scummy with your assumpitons that I didn't know what I was doing, I had no choice but to claim to prevent a vig lynch

I meant don't even mention a possible slip in thread. Just keep your head low, stay alive, and let your gun do the talking.

Also,

@Mod: When is the deadline?

[tclawren]

>Not voting (4): andrew94, DeathRowKitty, tclawren, lane0168

unacceptable

I'll hop on the friend wagon at deadline, but I support romanus dying >_>

VOTE: andrew

Well, I'm pretty sure that Friend and lane are town. I will join on a Romanus wagon if it builds though. He's just not my first choice. I'll put my vote on Andrew for previous stated reasons.

[tclawren]

@TS

It's more like he hasn't anything scummy. Everyone else has had one or two moments where my scumdar goes off a bit. Friend hasn't made it buzz a bit.

inb4: "But what about his continual townreads?" Put them in actual context guys. The first townread on lane was after DRK did the same thing. He was essentially replying to DRK. The second one was after Andrew misrepped him and said that Friend had changed his mind on Lane. He replied saying that he didn't. The third one was after a huge long post by lane in which he voted MOI and went a little crazy. Friend chimed in to say to us that he was convinced that Lane was town.

tl;dr: Friend wagon=fail

[tclawren]

vote:chesskid

Explain.

[tclawren]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while. School has been raping me in the ass. Consider yourselves lucky that I'm even posing today, but I know we are getting close to deadline. IMO, if it's Friend vs. Xalxe (how in the world did these two happen to be the ones up to be lynched?) I feel much better about Friend then Xalxe.
VOTE: Xalxe

[tclawren]

OK THAT WAS REALLY SCUMMY LANE. YOU JUST TRIED TO KILL A CLAIMED PR. >.<
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lane

[tclawren]

VOTE: singer

@twisted: We ran out of time. The mod ended the day early.

[tclawren]

Ughhh, I hate arguments like this. They're hard to read. Neither of them are terribly convincing however.

On a side note, I don't like Friend or Romanus right now. Especially Romanus.

[tclawren]

I'm sorry Singer, but I'm not going to put my life in your hands. I'm not seeing your idea getting enough traction here Chess. I do think you've solidified yourself as town in my eyes though.

I'm really confused why this day is going on so long. I'm also confused why Friend hasn't shown up yet. His read is slipping from town to scum in my eyes.

I think it would be a good idea to get rid of DH (the roleblocker did block him), but we are not going to take a chance right now on it when we have a free confirmed lynch right now.

[tclawren]

One question:

Why shoot me?

[tclawren]

@TS:

I did... didn't give me a much better answer. Plus I get hers a bit more I have a feeling I was a neutral read and at that point she was basically a cop so it kinda makes sense.

[tclawren]

Well either way, you guys were pretty darn awesome. Only one miss by the vig? The roleblock blocking the mafia kill both nights? Good job.

[tclawren]

Oh and btw I added you to my sig DH. It was fun working with you. To bad the freaking PR's were beasts.

[tclawren]

Definitely thanks Magua for modding a solid game. Also thanks to everyone in the game for making this a really enjoyable game to be involved in.

Also, I'm going to second that scummy now.