Metropolis: Revisited [Game Over]

[ObliviousDruidMuncher]

Okay, absolutely insane week this week. Catching up now and will have a post tomorrow. Anything in particular I should be looking at?

One thing, though. On my first skim read, I saw that people were actually attacking Wraith for not wanting to break the game. Wow. Great sports we have in here; that isn't scummy in that context whatsoever. I wouldn't want to break the game either. Someone said the point of the game is to win, and yes, it is. But not like that.

Also, as far as whoever placed a strike already (forgot name, don't have time right now to look, sorry), I don't see a scum motivation just yet. Using one's only vote too early is more VI behavior than mafia behavior, as far as I'm concerned at this point.

[curiouskarmadog]

The primary difference between my play and Hresz is that Hresz actually looks like he's trying to appear pro-town.
I however, don't really care how I appear.

Oh and, the accusations of me waiting until the Hresz wagon was popular are pretty much crap. My first post after Hresz started posting called him out on it. It's not my fault that other people had already posted by that time.

calling bullshit on this...lets fact check that...what post number was that?

When you did vote Hrezs, what are the wagon size?...and your vote on Admiral was a RVS vote?

I had made 4 posts or so before Hresz started his scumtastic behavior. They involved a mod question, and an RVS wagon on Thad.
.

Also:

You had me as scum because I was defending wraith's position on not wanting to break the game, right? If anything AGar was defending wraith's position more strongly than I was.

No, I had you as scum conditionally with Wraith, because I detected that your

intention

(keyword here, you should take note of this) when arguing against him was defense.

So was it a RVS vote or did you think he was scummy?

DGB is more reserved than normal for her, which is setting off warning bells.

I was just thinking of this myself, until I remember I just saw her as an SK that was very outspoken….so meh.

Okay, absolutely insane week this week. Catching up now and will have a post tomorrow. Anything in particular I should be looking at?

One thing, though. On my first skim read, I saw that people were actually attacking Wraith for not wanting to break the game. Wow. Great sports we have in here; that isn't scummy in that context whatsoever. I wouldn't want to break the game either. Someone said the point of the game is to win, and yes, it is. But not like that.

Also, as far as whoever placed a strike already (forgot name, don't have time right now to look, sorry), I don't see a scum motivation just yet. Using one's only vote too early is more VI behavior than mafia behavior, as far as I'm concerned at this point.

there is nothing about this post I like.

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[Plum]

Oh and, the accusations of me waiting until the Hresz wagon was popular are pretty much crap. My first post after Hresz started posting called him out on it. It's not my fault that other people had already posted by that time.

Uh. Well, let's take a quick look at your posting around that time, shall we? In the post in which you vote Hrezs, you write

Sorry for the absence.

This when you had last posted in the thread less 24 hours previous. Why apologize?

There's a good answer: Because you had been around the site a fair amount the previous day (easily confirmable by searching your posts) and felt guilty or uncomfortable about not posting

in this game

during that time. Why did you feel guilty or uncomfortable about it?

Because you saw the Hresz suspicions and knowingly held off on posting. Doing something like that is, in and of itself, not necessarily a scumtell (people are lazy or bored or procrastinators as Town too, obviously). But the skittishness about your behavior indicates that in this case it is scummy. And icing on the cake?

Hrezs is posting nothing more than the most basic levels of analysis. Classic scum-strat there.

I pretty much agree with what has been said.

Vote: Hrezs

Paradigm of calling someone out on your own initiative, that bolded for convenience bit, innit? With a nice topping of accusation-that-no-one-has-yet-made-on-the-biggest-wagon-despite-the-fact-that-it-makes-little-sense.

[Exe]

calling bullshit on this...lets fact check that...what post number was that?

When you did vote Hrezs, what are the wagon size?

You make this accusation, but you never actually look any of this stuff up? Obvscum is obvious?
It was my post number 5, and it was the THIRD vote on the Hresz wagon. Go figure.

So was it a RVS vote or did you think he was scummy?

Can you at least make some attempt at actually reading the thread?
THAT post about ThAd was AFTER I had switched my vote to Hresz.

This when you had last posted in the thread less 24 hours previous. Why apologize?

Oh god, not this again.

Go read fate's Prison Mafia. I'll not defend myself for apologizing for an absence again. It was the ammo used by SCUM to get me lynched once before.
I apologized because a good 3 pages had passed since my last post. Whoopedy freaking do.

But the skittishness about your behavior indicates that in this case it is scummy. And icing on the cake?

No. Just no.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2583027
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2583639

Apologizing for being away is NOT a scumtell.
Stop pushing this case like somehow it's legitimate.

Hey Plum, why exactly would I hold off on posting about Hresz in the first place? The case on him was solid from the get-go, I had nothing to gain from intentionally stalling.
I mean, you yourself bandwagoned on Hresz with even LESS contribution than you're calling me out for. So what have you to say for yourself?


Tl;dr: CKD should be lynched after Hresz. That was literally one of the worst posts this game. Plum...Idk, maybe it's feelings of OMGUS but that case on me is bad.

[Plum]

I'd argue that I bandwagoned with much more substance (and more sincerity) than you did, but I'll leave others to judge that for themselves, unless you yourself want me to dissect that post for you.

You as scum might certainly wish to see how much flack Hrezs is getting/wait to see if he posts anything that makes him look substantially better or worse before posting if you think you can, which could be used to further many scum motives. You're presenting you-scum wanting to stall the Hrezs wagon/suspicions as nigh impossible, which is manipulatively misleading at the very least, given how untrue it is and the sort of light you try to paint yourself in falsely.

I appreciate your frustration if you've been wrongly accused of being scum with this reasoning cited before, but I called it like I saw it: A discrepancy that fit together with other aspects of your play. Even the posts you quoted, I still think it's a line of thinking worth keeping tabs on at the very least.

[Exe]

I'd argue that I bandwagoned with much more substance (and more sincerity) than you did,

You literally summed your entire bandwagon on him up with a "what he said" and a single question. How is that "much" more, if more at all?

You're presenting you-scum wanting to stall the Hrezs wagon/suspicions as nigh impossible,

I presented it in no such way. I said that I had nothing to gain, and I still stand by it. Hresz is a solid wagon, AND with a game of multiple scum-teams, even as scum I would have incentive to jump on a scummy wagon ASAP.
I am not saying that hesitating somehow makes me town. I am demonstrating that my motives were not subversive, but instead just not having the time to post in this particular thread.

wrongly accused of being scum with this reasoning cited before,

"Wrongly accused" doesn't begin to cover it...Reaper led my entire mislynch wagon D1 with this reasoning... :IGMEOU: Apologizing for my activity levels (whether you feel it was merited or not) is

not

a scumtell. Though, feel free to "keep tabs" on it if you want.

[Hrezs]

1. Demeanor? You find my confidence in my natural abilities is a scum tell? Yeah, that's horrible
2. I see the assertion that I know I’m not getting lynched means I’m scum. Please explain in more detail. If I am scum I either would be a Serial Killer (with no backing) or a Mafia member (with only two votes guaranteed to be on my side). How, with 24 players alive, could you possibly come to the conclusion that I felt safe because I have backing?
3. I see you dropped the point of your argument where you were attempting to say that my correction of Toog is scummy. Check.

That was how I interpretted his argument, not my own.
1) related to 2
2) Overconfidence is a scumtell in my book. Just because it's illogical for you to act the way you did does not mean you didn't do it.
3) Your correction was scummy. You misrepped his post to make it seem as if he said nothing.

If you never intended to strike him based on his strike why include that in your post at all? I know why – you wanted to look ‘Townie’ by showing your outrage.

I forgot that sharing your feelings was a scumtell.

I really don’t care if you think the questions are worthless.

Please continue to attack me with generic Wiki-tells that have nothing to do with scum intent. It further illustrates how you are reaching in your ‘scum-hunting’.

Your intent was clear, to make it seem as if you were doing something while not actually contributing. Still not sure what wiki-tells are.

To put it bluntly … so what. Band-wagonning isn’t a scum-tell and I’m certainly not mindlessly bandwagonning you.

Band-wagonning is a scum tell. "Hey, this guy is an easy lynch, I'll just go with that."

You are afraid to place a Vote in this game where they mean nothing until you are ‘incredibly comfortable’ with lynching?

Oh look … more posts saying explicitly I am likely scum but no symbolic vote.

It’s Ok Hrezs … I’ve seen caught scum flail worse than you are.

I have already said we should treat votes as if they were real. They are not meaningless unless we choose to make them meaningless. Its odd that you're saying they're nothing then painting me in a bad light for not using one. Why is that?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Hrezs, who among those who aren't attacking you is scum?

[Toogeloo]

Because I've played with Toogeloo. He's not the type to vanish after doing something stupid. I don't know Wraith.

Several problems with this.

1. You assume that I think what I did was stupid and would be more ardent to defend my playstyle.
2. Several players have been vocal about not listening to a word I have to say, so why should I put forth the effort today? I am clearly not going any where any time soon with doubt of my alignment, and my less vocal playstyle this game.
3. You've played with me, what, once? Hardly makes you an expert on my playstyle. Just sayin'.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Good job Wraith and BS. Players that need to read / contribute more:

DGB
GummyBear
Kagelord
ObliviousDruidMuncher

[KageLord]

Well... that's a lot of posting for 36 hours. I've bit-better-than-skimmed what I missed, but I just don't feel like dragging up quotes from 4-5 pages ago. I'll see if anything newer strikes me on a reread later. For the moment though, since someone (Rampage?) asked about my reads to this point on certain people:

Toog
Friend
Hrezs
Exe

in descending order of scumminess. Since ya'll don't want to take out easy very prob-scum in Toog though, I'll try to throw something together on Friend. If the quicklynch is agreed upon, I'll agree to striking Hrezs.

[Friend]

I'm intrigued.

[Baby Spice]

I think Toogeloo's strike wasn't scummy. Acting impulsively is a null-tell. The people jumping all over him for it I find more scummy, CKD/Hresz/KageLord being prime examples.

Is that your entire case for Hrez being scum?

Also, I got asked for reads Friend. Just reads.

[ThAdmiral]

Basically because there is a lot of scum in this game I believe easy lynches are going to occur much more frequently. This is because scum will generally be happy with any lynch that is not of their own member. I am not suggesting all the scum are going to pile on every lynch, but I certainly think we won't be seeing as many divisive views on most wagons as you would in other games. My theory, therefore, is to discard the first bandwagon of the day as any subsequent bandwagon, comprised of a core of the people who weren't on the original bandwagon, will be inherently less scummy (or scum-driven) than the first one.

So you are anti-Hrezs wagon?

Yes.

[AGar]

Definitely dislike Exe getting all on his heels and shit after the various call-outs.

[Kublai Khan]

A good point is being made reminding everyone of multiscum - KK's scumhunting is not necessarily a town tell.

Why are you singling me out?

Bunnylover's play so far is the towniest of all the Bunnylover games I've seen; seriously. Putting BunnyLover into the null-to-town category.

Really??? Link me a game for comparison...

I like KK, his posts feel genuine.

<canadian>I'm not your buddy, pal.</canadian>

Several problems with this.

1. You assume that I think what I did was stupid and would be more ardent to defend my playstyle.
2. Several players have been vocal about not listening to a word I have to say, so why should I put forth the effort today? I am clearly not going any where any time soon with doubt of my alignment, and my less vocal playstyle this game.
3. You've played with me, what, once? Hardly makes you an expert on my playstyle. Just sayin'.

1. No, no.. You knew it would be controversial and generate discussion. I knew it would be stupid and a stunt because it was very doubtful that conversation would stall out in a game this large with this playerlist.
2. You should be vocal, because I'm going to be on your ass. You pulled a BIG LIE stunt, and I'm annoyed as hell about how well it's working.
2.5. Plus, if you are town, where is your post-event analysis of reaction to your strike? Who looks bad/good/indifferent?
3. Once more than Wraith. Just sayin'

[Friend]

You can do more than you're asked, Baby Spice.

[DrippingGoofball]

We /strike instead of vote. We can't take back strikes (unstrike). When 60% of the players have striked a player, he or she dies. We are now pseudo-voting so that once someone's reached a majority of votes, we mass-strike.

Thanks. Count me in on Hresz.

[Friend]

Admiral, are you anti-wagon because of your. theory, or because you think Hrezx is town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I found him scummy at the start for his non-committal posting, but since then he's done nothing but try to defend himself, so I am not confident in being able to get a read on him.

Um, whut?

1. You initially found him scummy for non-committal posting.
2. Since then he’s done nothing but play defense.
3. This leads you to a conclusion of Null?

Unless you are saying solely playing defense is a Town tell (and I would like to see you confirm this if so) then I don’t understand this thought process at all.

Note for future reference

– ThAd’s ‘theory’ on wagons leads me to believe that he might well be aligned with Hrezs (Skull Crusher, Night Rider or Inner Circle).

--

Thanks. Count me in on Hresz.

Then why no vote?

--

MoI: If anything seems a little too calm about the strike.

What would you expect a Town reaction to be then? Flipping out?

--

ODM’s 275

is active lurking at its finest - Commenting at some depth simply on non-game related issues from pages 1 to 3 while saying “I will have a full post tomorrow”

@ODM

– Since you are a hydra one head having a insance week is no excuse for low activity.

--

CKD should be lynched after Hresz. That was literally one of the worst posts this game.

It hardly qualifies as anywhere close to the worst post of the game. Other than attacking you why is it bad?

--

I was just thinking of this myself, until I remember I just saw her as an SK that was very outspoken….so meh.

Didn't you tell me that this is a different game earlier?

In Cyclical there were two factions with kills. Here there are four.
In Cyclical the SK had one shot of NK immunity. Here according to the Wiki both are not immune to NKs.

Why so quick to assume DGB isn’t a SK here (based on the game differences) or regular scum?

--

2) Overconfidence is a scumtell in my book. Just because it's illogical for you to act the way you did does not mean you didn't do it.
3) Your correction was scummy. You misrepped his post to make it seem as if he said nothing.

2. You need a new book. I look forward to the day you play with Fate or Benmage …
3. Um what? Showing specifically how he mis-repped my post isn’t mis-repping his.

I forgot that sharing your feelings was a scumtell.

Nice soft attempt to be dismissive while avoiding the issue. It’s scummy because you purposefully put in extraneous information (you later said you never intended to strike Toog) with the sole purpose of showing ‘Town outrage’.

Still not sure what wiki-tells are.

Wiki-tells are what bad players or bad scum use. They run to the wiki, find something listed as a Tell, and use it regardless of how inaccurate or incorrect their implementation is.

Band-wagonning is a scum tell. "Hey, this guy is an easy lynch, I'll just go with that."

1. No, it’s not a scum tell.
2. I’m clearly not simply voting for you because others are
3. Calling yourself an easy lynch? Scumtastic.

I have already said we should treat votes as if they were real. They are not meaningless unless we choose to make them meaningless. Its odd that you're saying they're nothing then painting me in a bad light for not using one. Why is that?

I’m highlighting that your complete unwillingness to actually vote someone you repeatedly say is scum shows non-Town motivated play. Until that vote is converted into a strike it is meaningless beyond the potential for VC analysis. Which you seem to be hoping to avoid by refusing to vote under cover of “It’s my playstyle”. What was it you said about playstyles earlier?

I don't know your posting style, and it doesn't matter to me as I'm not going to write someone off 'because it's their style'.

Replace the first posting with voting and this is a beautiful example of hypocricy.

[Toogeloo]

DGB is making me suspicious. Not her normal self this game.

She makes a list, and then the rest of her posts are fluffy.

[Exe]

Other than attacking you why is it bad?

It's not the target of the attack, but the way it was executed. He accuses me first by asking 3 questions which he could look up himself (my post number, and my position on the Hresz wagon). This is made worse by the fact that my post number supports my argument AND I was fairly early on the Hresz wagon, so this makes it look a damned lot like he's trying to generate suspicion on spurious claims.

Not to mention, his accusation of me regarding ThAd shows that he is clearly not reading the thread in the slightest. I mean, he takes my RVS ThAd-vote and then accuses me of not randomly voting by showing a post many pages later where I accused ThAd of something legitimate...which would obviously have absolutely no connection to the original RVS vote.

Seriously, how am I wrong here? He's not reading the thread, and his entire accusation was essentially just rhetoric.

[Kise]

BBS - Work be crazy.

[Wraith]

V/LA

until the weekend. I'm getting swamped IRL.

[Friend]

Seriously, how am I wrong here? He's not reading the thread, and his entire accusation was essentially just rhetoric.

You're ignoring this:

Bullshit, it wasn’t a deflection…scum points for BOTH.

Vote Exe, Agar, might believe that crap (but I dont think he does), but I really doubt you...I also dont like how you are jumping on Hrez as the wagon is getting hot.