Open 291 Frenenemies (+ other guy) - Game over: Wolves win!

[LlamaFluff]

Jumping to it being a gambit before DRK even has a chance to explain, Llama?

Yep. DRK is competent enough to use it, and a good enough player not to quickhammer. Occamz razor says gambit. Those gambits come from town quite a bit more then scum, hence the unvote.

[chkflip]

Please, hammer before replacements have a chance to catchup/post. I beg you.

Interesting that you would go for the hammer so fast.

- One of these things is not like the other?

I mean for real DRK chk's L-1 vote on me was the first time he's directly confronted anyone or given a read the whole game and you're acting like everything there is to be said has already been said.

- For someone who moans about ISO's, you sure don't pay attention to the thread either. I had to attend a funeral, sir, and it's not like that was held on the same day the unfortunate event happened. But you know what? You're absolutely right, you

are

the first person I've made a full case on. At least you're paying a

little

attention. Go ahead, though, make sure to make that a main point in your case against me.

- It also makes me giggle that you throw your vote at people who vote against you. "Oh, you found something against me? TWO CAN PLAY AT THAT GAME!" Seems like you want to make people back off of you; well, unfortunately for you, it didn't work. Twice.

[DeathRowKitty]

Stop...hammertime!

Unvote, vote: Krazy

Replacements can catch up tomorrow. This day has gone on long enough.

Interesting that you would go for the hammer so fast.

Also interesting that you didn't notice you were already voting me.

And finally, really? Stealing my phrase that I stole from other people online? That's just low.

This day might have "gone on" a while, but relatively little has really been said except among a few players, with so many replacements and so many lurkers being replaced by other lurkers.

I would like to believe I have a good enough memory not to forget I was voting you, considering arguing with you has accounted for half of my posting in this game.

Why did you assume immediately that I was actually trying to hammer you?

[Crazy]

I don't have time to read chk's and Krazy's cases on each other right now. I'll look later, but I don't think I'd be terribly disappointed with either of them getting lynched.

[Krazy]

Please, hammer before replacements have a chance to catchup/post. I beg you.

Interesting that you would go for the hammer so fast.

- One of these things is not like the other?

If you cannot see the sarcasm in the first remark then something is seriously, seriously wrong with you.

- For someone who moans about ISO's, you sure don't pay attention to the thread either. I had to attend a funeral, sir, and it's not like that was held on the same day the unfortunate event happened. But you know what? You're absolutely right, you

are

the first person I've made a full case on. At least you're paying a

little

attention. Go ahead, though, make sure to make that a main point in your case against me.

If you were pressed for time, then why would you rush to push a player to L-1?

Thanks for trying to use a funeral to defend yourself, though. That's super classy.

- It also makes me giggle that you throw your vote at people who vote against you. "Oh, you found something against me? TWO CAN PLAY AT THAT GAME!" Seems like you want to make people back off of you; well, unfortunately for you, it didn't work. Twice.

chk, if I was going to find something against you, obviously it had to be in your first real post to the game or nothing at all. After all, wasn't everything else dismissible?

But please keep clinging to the reasoning that everything I do is OMGUS.

[Krazy]

I would like to believe I have a good enough memory not to forget I was voting you, considering arguing with you has accounted for half of my posting in this game.

Why did you assume immediately that I was actually trying to hammer you?

I don't assume anything, including assuming you were automatically going for a gambit. I prefer to comment on unusual behavior and let them explain it. I am not a fan of players defending other players or explaining their actions for them, as in my experience that has accounted for townies defending scum on more than one occasion, so no I was not exactly thrilled with Llama's "obvgambit" post. If you were going to gambit, I would have preferred for you to explain why you did it and what you expected to get out of it instead of making the issue whether or not Llama was right for defending you on it before you had a chance to explain.

Speaking of which, why did you do it and what did you expect to get out of it?

[Krazy]

I don't have time to read chk's and Krazy's cases on each other right now. I'll look later, but I don't think I'd be terribly disappointed with either of them getting lynched.

Crazy, I literally just started leaning town on you again. Please stop destroying this view with every post you make. Again.

[DeathRowKitty]

Speaking of which, why did you do it and what did you expect to get out of it?

I was hoping to provoke some sort of a reaction out of it. I was mostly hoping to get a cheap town read or two out of it. Town are more likely to make themselves obvious if they believe something like that, whereas scum are more likely to lurk and wait for the mod to post the death scene.

I don't assume anything, including assuming you were automatically going for a gambit.

Looks a lot like you assumed I was serious to me. Unless you would like to explain how this post is supposed to be anything but serious.

[DeathRowKitty]

I don't have time to read chk's and Krazy's cases on each other right now. I'll look later, but I don't think I'd be terribly disappointed with either of them getting lynched.

Crazy, I literally just started leaning town on you again. Please stop destroying this view with every post you make. Again.

Wait, what about that do you find scummy?

[Krazy]

Some quickreads:

Crazy - I am leaning town again but more or less have a null-tell. He's been more active and more willing to change positions in the game, he's made some questionable assessments but has also made a lot of good points. I definitely would not say "obvtown" but RIGHT NOW I have a very faint town lean on him.

Jerbs - Made one post of content the whole game, targetting Aaah which is honestly one of the easiest targets to shoot at (short of myself, of course ). Not liking this slot a whole lot, but that Jerbs did have rl stuff come up seems undeniable from his replacements. I will go ahead and say: Lurker #1.

Krazy - Terrible sense of humor and totally ruining the game. Lynch as quickly as possible.

Quaroath - Has made a few pretty decent posts, both casting blame but also willing to step back. Right now I have a very faint townlean but would be interested in his reaction to chk's last few posts to really solidify on this slot.

singersigner - Steps in, and out of everything in this thread, lists me as a top 2 candidate for of all things posting the random questions. However, was also the only one that bothered to notice I didn't answer them myself. Mixed feelings about this slot.

Glass - Leaning town, actually.

smashbro_of_the_SSS - I don't like the vote on me when he lists chk as the top suspect, and I also don't like accusing me of OMGUS on Crazy. But, I still have mixed feelings on this slot. He objected to my "lynch all lurkers" thing but has only pushed on wagons that are off and running. Despite all that I somehow have a faint townside on him. As much as I dislike his voting me when he lists chk as top suspect, that does somehow seem like a more town thing to do as scum. Would like to see him get into some slightly more meaty conversation with the replacements though in case I'm wrong on that.

DeathRowKitty - Park was a nulltell, Zord never posted, and that leaves DRK suspecting me and the fake-hammer gambit. Very faint townlean, but I still think the gambit was pointless.

LlamaFluff - Looking back at Llama, he gets obvscum from Park but then ignores DRK when she replaces him. I find that problematic, on a re-read. Until I noticed that I was leaning town, however, so I will say I have mixed feelings on this slot.

chkflip - Subject of ongoing discussion for me at this particular moment, so skipping this slot for now.

Furculow - Non-poster replacing aaah's problematic slot. Not liking this slot much at all at the moment.

I would be SO not surprised by a Jerbs + Furculow scumflip, BUT then again I also wouldn't mind actually giving the time to either get replaced and having a chance to talk to them or whatever. But I guess I'm in the minority on that one!

[LlamaFluff]

Did you just call everyone basically neutral or lurker?

[Krazy]

Wait, what about that do you find scummy?

Not the post itself, what it represents. My town-read on him was based on him once again getting off the sidelines and making cases and finally making some sort of case on Glass. This was him going back to side-lining again.

Also, @Llama, mixed feelings != neutral.

[Krazy]

Mixed feelings is "leaning town, except" as in I would otherwise have a faint townlean on this player except for x, y, or z.

[chkflip]

If you cannot properly joke (which you can't, obviously, since I'm what? The fourth person that's "dumb" because I didn't get your anti-joke?) than you shouldn't joke.

As far as my time goes, I put you at L-1 because I think you're scum. I don't care how much I haven't done beforehand; unlike the replacements, I've not only caught up, but I've formed enough of an opinion to vote you to where you currently are.

You're the one that called my lack of posting into play. So I thought I'd re-address why it was I was lacking posts. It's your bad call, not mine. Sorry I reminded you?

And no, I've made "real" posts prior to my voting you. You just fail to see them because you're mad you're at L-1.

[Glass]

SCCHHHOOOOOOOLLLLL

Will be back tomorrow to catch up.

[Quaroath]

catching up, will post either tomorrow morning or tonight. been hella busy.

[Krazy]

If you cannot properly joke (which you can't, obviously, since I'm what? The fourth person that's "dumb" because I didn't get your anti-joke?) than you shouldn't joke.

You're hilarious.

As far as my time goes, I put you at L-1 because I think you're scum.

That's good, because I was under the impression that everyone else was voting me because they think I'm innocent.

You're the one that called my lack of posting into play. So I thought I'd re-address why it was I was lacking posts. It's your bad call, not mine. Sorry I reminded you?

You seem to think the reasons you haven't posted are of great significance to why I brought it up. My point was that you haven't posted, that you have had no significant interaction with anyone since the RVS, and that you came out of the blue after saying nothing to anyone and pushed a wagon to L-1. You hadn't attempted to scumhunt at all this game until you decided to push a wagon close to a lynch.

You can call this OMGUS now, but what will it read after a flip? Ask yourself that, chk, no matter which side of the aisle you're on. You will look even worse tomorrow than you do today, so if you're town. That you happened to have a real life explanation for your lack of activity doesn't make your L-1 vote on me look any less scummy or any less opportunistic, and your immediate defensiveness on my bringing it up isn't reading terribly town either.

And no, I've made "real" posts prior to my voting you.

Show me.

[Krazy]

@Llama, seriously, what's the deal with dropping the park thing? I was seriously starting to lean town on you until I read your iso. You start the park thing then you drop it so you can prod the active player, then you tunnel on me and forget about the park thing altogether? Are you just washing the slate clean for DRK or what? Not even a comment on you in regard to that player slot since the replacement.

That and this waffling about hammering me has me seriously wondering about your investment into the other players in this game. Are you actively trying to protect some of the remaining lurkers or does it just come naturally?

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama, seriously, what's the deal with dropping the park thing? I was seriously starting to lean town on you until I read your iso. You start the park thing then you drop it so you can prod the active player, then you tunnel on me and forget about the park thing altogether? Are you just washing the slate clean for DRK or what? Not even a comment on you in regard to that player slot since the replacement.

DRK reads town and a little bit else makes me second guess that read hard. By what you are saying, isnt it bad for me to push DRK too since he is active?

That and this waffling about hammering me has me seriously wondering about your investment into the other players in this game. Are you actively trying to protect some of the remaining lurkers or does it just come naturally?

Stalling the game flat out is horrible, apathy is one of the leading cause of town deaths. If it means pushing action while people get replaced and catchup, I will. Dead games are cake for scum to win.

[Krazy]

DRK reads town and a little bit else makes me second guess that read hard. By what you are saying, isnt it bad for me to push DRK too since he is active?

...

Did I say vote her? Did I say hammer her? No. You dropped your case on park 100% as soon as DRK got in here based purely on your town read. So basically, you ARE literally giving her a clean slate?

My position has been that you shouldn't throw your votes at players that are less scummy simply because they are active, since that gives lurkers incentive to lurk. I never said to not engage people at all.

Stalling the game flat out is horrible, apathy is one of the leading cause of town deaths. If it means pushing action while people get replaced and catchup, I will. Dead games are cake for scum to win.

Does the game seem stalled to you?

[LlamaFluff]

Did I say vote her? Did I say hammer her? No. You dropped your case on park 100% as soon as DRK got in here based purely on your town read. So basically, you ARE literally giving her a clean slate?

If you call a clean slate changing my read on someone, then yes. I had a scum read on park, DRK came in, looked very town, and a couple other things make me think my inital read could have easily been wrong.

My position has been that you shouldn't throw your votes at players that are less scummy simply because they are active, since that gives lurkers incentive to lurk. I never said to not engage people at all.

Activity is not a part of my case. I am completely fine lynching a scummy lurker. Furc is getting close to that point because I know he is active elsewhere.

Stalling the game flat out is horrible, apathy is one of the leading cause of town deaths. If it means pushing action while people get replaced and catchup, I will. Dead games are cake for scum to win.

Does the game seem stalled to you?

If we wait for everyone to get caught up and replaced it will be. Still moving a little below average at this point.

[ThAdmiral]

vote count

Crazy
Jerbs
Krazy - 5 (Crazy, smashbro_of_the_SSS, Glass, DeathRowKitty, chkflip)
Quaroath
singersigner
Glass
smashbro_of_the_SSS
DeathRowKitty
LlamaFluff
chkflip - 2 (singersigner, Krazy)
Furculow - 1 (Jerbs)

Not voting - Quaroath, Furculow, LlamaFluff

Krazy is lynch -1

Still searching for a replacement for Jerbs

[DeathRowKitty]

singersigner - Steps in, and out of everything in this thread, lists me as a top 2 candidate for of all things posting the random questions. However, was also the only one that bothered to notice I didn't answer them myself. Mixed feelings about this slot.

You've actually made me realize something I didn't notice earlier: a majority of the player list answered the random questions, but no one really bothered to look at the answers. I know I said I don't like random question, but I'm going to be a hypocrite for a minute here and actually try to analyze these.

For reference:
chkflip
Crazy
parknourie
TheBigLebowski
Jerbs
aaah400
Quaroath
SingerSigner

For each (useful) question, I'm going to give my expected response and then look through people's answers to see if anything stands out. Not sure if it will be useful yet, but it's worth a try.

For anyone else that actually cares to work through this, I suggest coming up with what you expect the answer for each question to be before reading what I thought it should be.

-How screwed is the town?

What can we expect out of this question? Well, my first reaction to this was roughly on the order of "umm...what?" Considering there was no reason to think town was screwed in the first few pages of the game, I don't foresee any natural responses to this question besides "lolno" and "It's not?" for people that didn't find the questioning useful and "It's not." for people that did find it useful.

The one outlier I see for this one is aaah's response:

town are not screwed. town is fun sided as well, but always being VT is boring.

I've commented on this quote before, but seeing it now, I'm not sure whether or not he understood the question...

When I originally read this, "town is fun sided as well" sounded to me like "don't feel bad guys, being town can be fun too." Basically, it doesn't sound like something he's including himself in. What I wonder now is...no, I don't think it matters. Actually...okay, if he misinterpreted the question as "Does it suck to be town?", I might be able to see how he could say that as town. It would be nice to be able to ask him about it, but that's not possible right now. I do know English isn't his first language from another game I was in with him, so meh.

-Which are cooler, werewolves or mafia?

I see more potential for odd comments on this one. First-order thinking says scum would be hesitant to say anything, whereas town would just give their favorites. What I actually expect to see is scum forcing themselves to respond...though I'm not exactly sure what that would look like tbh. I'm also going to go out on a limb on this one and say that if we're looking for connections later, scum are slightly more likely to be of the alignment they gave as an answer to this question.

The response I find most off here is chkflip's:

I just got into this show of SyFy called "Being Human" with a werewolf, a vampire, and a ghost all living together. Wolves seem much cooler than Mafiosos, but only because I haven't had my Scarface fix in a while.

While chkflip was generally wordy in his responses to Krazy's questions, what bothers me about this one is that either the first sentence is extraneous or the second is excessive. In either case, it reads as potential over-justifying of his answer (scared his reasoning won't be accepted).

-How lurkerish are YOU?

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to this one, so I'm not going to bother looking through answers here.

-Rate the following on a scale of Very Scummy to very Noobish to Totally Pro:

-1. Asking questions about role mechanics (Is this always role fishing?)
-2. Talking about No Lynch
-3. Talking about theory in the first few pages

Eh, if anything, you *might* be able to catch scum being too focused on answering these as opposed to other questions, but I don't really expect anything to come out of looking at answers to this...well, I decided to look anyway and Quaroath stands out quite a bit (fake excitement on the game-related questions, super-srs responses to the theory questions). Probably the biggest thing I've noticed off these questions yet actually. +Scum points for Quaroath

-Why haven't you voted Crazy yet?

Eh, I expect town and scum responses to this to be pretty similar. This question probably tells us more about Krazy than it does about anyone else. It probably does, but I've been sitting here for the past minute and a half thinking about it and I have no idea what it tells us.


So I guess that wasn't as useful as I hoped.

tl;dr:
Quaroath is now slightly scummier. Joy.

[chkflip]

Krazy's 266 is terrible AtE at the end there.

DRK, I read that aah quote as them basically claiming Vanilla Townie. As for my "fear" I was just having fun with the silly RQ's.

[Crazy]

After reading the chk's and Krazy's cases on each other (i.e. chk's case and Krazy's defense of it), I feel slightly better about chk since now he's actually posting valuable information, and I feel about the same towards Krazy.

The only thing that bugged me about chk here is that he failed to understand the sarcasm in Krazy's "hammer before replacements can catch up" post. In context, I thought it was pretty obvious. Note: I'm not saying that misunderstanding sarcasm is scummy; I'm saying that I don't entirely buy the notion that he actually misunderstood it. But that's a small point.