Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[subgenius]

Wait, did that mean that the weak doctor did what the wiki says it does, or what magnetic said it did?

There's no way for us to know, and it's irrelevant anyway.

I disagree with your thoughts on Bgg. The probable explanation is that Bgg was trying to justify completely irrational actions on the part of someone who was later banned for trolling, and stretched a little bit into the realm of the improbable.

What reason would he have to justify magnetic's actions? If bgg was a townie and thought magnetic was also town, he would want to justify magnetic's actions, but I would expect him to have better reasons than an admittedly far fetched hypothetical scenario.

bgg1996, feel free to answer this as well.

[bgg1996]

Even if you're scum, you don't just go do everything that town wouldn't do.
If somebody does something that town normally wouldn't do, I don't automatically assume that that person must be scum, because scum would have no reason to do such a thing.

Anyway, you seem to be saying that I came up with this idea because I wanted to gain credibility.
But that wasn't the reason that I did not vote him. On the contrary, I had thought that he the he was, indeed, scum. I wanted to gain information on other players before we lynched him. I was even thinking of keeping him alive as a kind-of scum-pet. Of course, if we had kept the day going, we may have found real scum, maybe even the SK. Not to mention the fact that we would have found out that there was indeed two mafia groups by now, possibly (but probably not) having him confirmed.

Only a few of the merits of not lynching him right away.

I am suspiscious of anybody who decided to lynch him anyway, after I told you not to, or at least not yet.

[subgenius]

So... you thought he was scum, but your first reaction was to propose a scenario in which he was just a confused townie. Secondly, there's no way we could have confirmed magnetic's role, regardless of how long the day went. I would also deem it extremely unlikely that we would be able to ascertain the identity, not to mention the existence of the SK, by extending the day.

[bgg1996]

No, but if we extended the day, we may have found evidence to believe Magnetic, or found somebody more scummy than magnetic, to lynch somebody else.

[yura-chi]

1) i don't know but since most people think it's 3 then ill go with that....and whats a ml?
3) i dont know either....

VOTE: CuriousKarmaDog
I suggest this because after looking back at everyones post, when everyone started to claim me as possible or actually scum ckd sided with me so i'm assuming

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

...Yura, did you just decide someone was scum for siding with you? I'm becoming more confident in my Yura vote, but I'm concerned as well for the lack of substantial content from CKD. Admittedly our D1 was rather short, but even so almost everyone else made some sort of real attempt at scumhunt.

[yura-chi]

i might change my vote depending on what ckd has to say...

[bgg1996]

Well, going around where/when magnetic was first lynched, I noticed Surprise_Carcinogen had voiced some suspiscions of me. More importantly, he called me an idiot. He proceded to metaphorically give me the finger by hammering magnetic the way he did, followed by some questionable logic.

@S_C: Do you still think I'm suspiscious?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

No, I don't. Given the way the magnetic situation turned out, as well as some re-reading of ISOs, I don't think you're suspicious enough to warrant a vote.

The only thing that still puts me ill at ease is that you voted for lurking after 8 and a half hours of no posting. I still would like justification for this.

[Maxous]

I am suspiscious of anybody who decided to lynch him anyway, after I told you not to, or at least not yet.

Anybody in particular? No harm, but that's quite a broad statement.


@SC: Why are you becoming more confident in your Yura vote? Because of his vote? I did'nt quite get that one.

[yura-chi]

@sc i didnt either, i dont know which part :S

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

I'm more suspicious because of his justification(or what I understood of the post, anyway) for his vote. He voted for CKD because CKD defended him. It's like the craziest, weirdest version of 'OMGUS' that I've ever heard. Looking at an ISO of Yura, I can't honestly say ANY of her posts do any better then null, and many are worse.

[andrew94]

my two cents: stabs are sk (always?) , im surprised tclawren didnt hammer , and i find surprise disturbing and subgenius pro town.

firstly, subgenius'es opinion on bgg, i find it to be correct.

then, about surprise, he was the one to hammer, and then the next day immedtaily votes for the next best suspect- yuri,. to me scums do this so people forget what happened the previous days/

vote surprise

[havingfitz]

Votecount 2.1:

curiouskarmadog - 2 (Regfan, yura-chi)

yura-chi – 2 (Truant, Surprise_Carcinogen)

bgg1996 - 1 (subgenius)
Surprise_Carcinogen - 1 (Andrew94)

Not voting: (subgenius, bgg1996, curiouskarmadog, vollkan, Maxous)

With 10 players left it’s 6 to lynch.

Day 2 will end no later than midnight EST on March 31st.

[vollkan]

Thoroughly pissed off at Magnetic. When I saw the lynch result, I thought he was one of the worst VIs I have ever come across - but, since it turns out he was cheating as well, I'm more just angry than anything else.

Mod: has he been site-banned for this?

- He had previously been banned as parknourie. As far as I know he is banned again as his user name no longer exists

.

First off,

Yura+7

for posts #202 and #203 - panickingly apologising for a mislynch, before the result was revealed. It fits with what I identified yesterday about yura basically being textbook newbscum.

On that note:
VOTE: Yura

1) How many mafia do you believe there is, do you think we still have multiple ML's?

From the flavour, it looks like there is either an SK or multiple scumgroups. With 10 people alive, it is most likely either 6:3:1 or 6:2:2. Mislynching has a possibility of reducing it to either 3:3:1 or 3:2:2. So, we may not have more than one ML left.

3) What do you make out of the twilight conversation yesterday.

See above

3. Mentions that discussion revolves around theory without adding his thoughts on it, progresses to predict a replacement while calling a 'RVS vote on Voltron' bad. Votes Pappmus after RVS period with 'gut' as his explanation. S2

Why should he have added his thoughts on a theory discussion, when he seemed to be complaining about it anyway?

Also, gut is horrifically anti-town, but it isn't scummy.

(I do love your use of a scale for ranking scumminess, though )

1. Answers RQS questions. N.
2. Mentions he's catching up on reading. N.
3. Mentions that discussion revolves around theory without adding his thoughts on it, progresses to predict a replacement while calling a 'RVS vote on Voltron' bad. Votes Pappmus after RVS period with 'gut' as his explanation. S2
4. Brings up that Yura is a bad lynch without going into why again, asks Magnetic a question without chasing an answer. S1
5. Asks Volkan if he really thinks he's scum again. N leaning S1
6. Questions Magnetic, again doesn't chase an answer. S1
7. Votes Maxmum stating it's a pressure vote removing the entire point of it. S1
8. Pushs his reasoning of 'delaying the day is good'. N leaning S1.
9. Attempts to defend his reasoning behind the pressure vote via bringing up an illogical comparison. Asks if I have a problem with the vote when it's clear that I was against the rasoning, not the vote. S1.

I'm not giving scumpoints for this, because it's a problem I remember having myself a while back. Basically, one of the problems with ISOs is that you end up determining a person's scumminess by looking at every single post and asking "Is this a good post?" As I mentioned above on a specific point, gut is BAD, but it isn't scummy. Similarly, saying "This is a pressure vote" is stupid, but it's hardly scummy. Part of the problem is that ISOing means you focus on quantity of posts analysed over depth of analysis - this is also why ISO is extremely easy to exploit as scum.

Couple thoughts: tclawren most likely was onto something since stabbing is typically an SK flavor (gogo mod-guessing); and SK's normally try to hit town and lynch scum while they're at it. Either way, (if there's an SK or a Vig) I doubt that there's only 2 mafia since mods generally don't like it if there's a chance that a scumgroup could theoretically be eliminated d1 (lynch and being NK'd would wipe out a scumgroup of 2). To support this, I don't really think that anyone ever expressed real suspicion of tcl yesterday (though while being trolled by (was town, now officially a troll banned loser) magnetic) that's less of a point.

Looking back at TCL's posts, he really was only suspicious of Yura before Magnetic's claim.

Speaking of Yura...
@vollkan: The reason I think/thought yura is/was town from that statement was because I don't see even a stupid scum thinking of them as a threat to anybody, while even stupid town have confidence that they're the best scumhunter in the world (and therefore making themselves a threat to any scum out there).

@Regfan: Why did you decide to ISO CKD above the others?

Vote: Yura-Chi

Gonna look over the game with the new information out there when I wake up.

Why are you voting Yura, when your response indicates clearly that you think/thought he is/was town?

[quote="bgg"
Wait, did that mean that the weak doctor did what the wiki says it does, or what magnetic said it did?
[/quote]

Why did you even ask this question?

I am suspiscious of anybody who decided to lynch him anyway, after I told you not to, or at least not yet.

No, but if we extended the day, we may have found evidence to believe Magnetic, or found somebody more scummy than magnetic, to lynch somebody else.

bgg+7

There was no reasonable argument against Magnetic's lynch, and the case for stalling was weak (let's not lynch right away, in case something happens!). Magnetic's was scummy as hell and, moreover, any reason for doubt relied on assuming he was trolling (which is an impossible assumption to make).

Faced with that, it's absurd that you would now turn around and attack those who lynched Magnetic, based on the off chance that the skies would open and proclaim his innocence. Coupled with your "too townie" rhetoric, the most reasonable explanation is that you are scum trying to capitalise on a quick lynch of a terrible (but ultimately town) player.

VOTE: CuriousKarmaDog
I suggest this because after looking back at everyones post, when everyone started to claim me as possible or actually scum ckd sided with me so i'm assuming

CKD is scummy for not thinking you are scum ?:roll:

[Regfan]

Part of the problem is that ISOing means you focus on quantity of posts analysed over depth of analysis - this is also why ISO is extremely easy to exploit as scum.

Understandable.

Why should he have added his thoughts on a theory discussion, when he seemed to be complaining about it anyway?

Logical theory discussion allows for an ice-breaker into the game therefore even if he were to complain about it as he did he would have no reason to avoid discussion related to it.

Also, gut is horrifically anti-town, but it isn't scummy.

Disagree, saying a vote is due to 'gut' allows the player to shy away from explaining the real reasons behind the vote, therefore allowing a player to be excused when the concequences of an incorrect lynch go through.

Similarly, saying "This is a pressure vote" is stupid, but it's hardly scummy.

Stating something is a pressure vote removes the intial point of it. The phrasement of the post makes it seem as if it's saying 'I'm doing something pro-town by pressure testing!'. Then when logic had proven it to be useless he attempted to cover it up comparison of something obviously irrelevant.

There was no reasonable argument against Magnetic's lynch, and the case for stalling was weak (let's not lynch right away, in case something happens!). Magnetic's was scummy as hell and, moreover, any reason for doubt relied on assuming he was trolling (which is an impossible assumption to make).

This.

[vollkan]

Logical theory discussion allows for an ice-breaker into the game therefore even if he were to complain about it as he did he would have no reason to avoid discussion related to it.

At the risk of repeating exactly what I said about the RVS argument....

If a person thinks a particular line of discussion is useless, it's perfectly understandable for them to not contribute to it.

Yes, in an ideal world full of puppies and rainbows people would contribute anyway just to be nice, but the fact is that when people in this game see it take a turn they don't like, they will more often than not refuse to join it,

Disagree, saying a vote is due to 'gut' allows the player to shy away from explaining the real reasons behind the vote, therefore allowing a player to be excused when the concequences of an incorrect lynch go through.

I completely agree with you.

But pointing out a scummy motivation for something is only half the equation. Remember something is only scummy if:
1) There is a scummy motivation for it; and
2) It is not reasonably likely that a townie would also do it

That's a simplification, obviously, but it suffices to make my point, which is: gut sucks and only helps scum, but plenty of townies use it (which is partly why it's so bloody annoying).

It's actually a lot like lurking, insofar as it is something that is really anti-town and which there is no pro-town motivation for, but which a lot of people will do anyway.

By all means, point out gut and facepunch whoever uses it, but don't call it scummy.

[Truant]

(still haven't read through knowing that mag, pap and tcl were town for d1, stupid life)

Answering Vollkan
I'm voting for Yura right now as my vote is useless if it's not used, and it's based on what I believe to be the best hard evidence so far in the game. Also, as an overall meta standpoint that I firmly believe in: if we punish scum for making "optimal" decisions (killing those who are a threat to them) by analyzing every NK for motivation, then we can force them into making suboptimal decisions because they don't want to get outed. Therefore, by forcing them into making suboptimal decisions we can gain a slight advantage resulting more often in a town win.

[Regfan]

Answering Vollkan
I'm voting for Yura right now as my vote is useless if it's not used, and it's based on what I believe to be the best hard evidence so far in the game. Also, as an overall meta standpoint that I firmly believe in: if we punish scum for making "optimal" decisions (killing those who are a threat to them) by analyzing every NK for motivation, then we can force them into making suboptimal decisions because they don't want to get outed. Therefore, by forcing them into making suboptimal decisions we can gain a slight advantage resulting more often in a town win.

Let me point out for you how stupid this sounds, you're essentially saying:

- Mafia killed a townie.
- Therefore we should lynch that townies FoS, even if I don't really suspect that person at all infact fought against them being lynched earlier for the sole reason that doing so will make mafia want to shoot townies who don't FoS them in the future. This means they will shoot townies that FoS other townies, and we will lynch that townies FoS. Continue over until we lose.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

my two cents: stabs are sk (always?) , im surprised tclawren didnt hammer , and

i find surprise disturbing

and subgenius pro town.

firstly, subgenius'es opinion on bgg, i find it to be correct.

then, about surprise, he was the one to hammer, and then the next day immedtaily votes for the next best suspect- yuri,. to me scums do this so people forget what happened the previous days/

vote surprise

So...your reasoning breaks down into "Hammering magnetic was scummy" and "Immediately chasing the best lead is scummy." Forgetting that I didn't nearly make the first vote of D2, I'm still confident in Yura as scum, and wanted to make sure she knew. I don't think by any means we should lynch her right away, as a short D1 was bad enough, thanks to the 'banned loser' as the vote-counts say. I also would very much like for you to explain the bolded statement a little more, since it's a vague way of saying absolutely nothing without evidence to back it up.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Side note, everybody look at Andrew's ISO. Five posts, 2 votes, no substance(I'm tempted to say 4 posts, since one is just him accusing yura of being a man). And aside from that, I dislike his refusal to read 'walls' since it pretty well excludes him from any real argument or well-made case, since they are all going to pretty well come in wall form. There is simply too little to go on for me to have an idea if he's scum yet or not, but what there is definitely points to anti-town behavior, at best, and scum at worst.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

A quick review of ISOs puts lowest post count at Andrew, CKD, and Yura, in that order, and lack of content is about the same(Yura and CKD are pretty close together though)

This isn't to say that lurking or useless posting is a HUGE draw to attention at this point, but I'd like these people to at least start justifying themselves, if only to force them to post and give us something to get a read with.

[curiouskarmadog]

have skimmed, will update/retort/vote this weekend.

Reg, have some questions though, if you have already answered them just provide the quote.

why did you assume that the second kill was a vig kill and completely skim over the possibility it could be an SK?

have you ever been in a game with an SK?

if you think it was a vig kill, which kill would you guess was the vig kill?

can you please link me to a scum game?

[Regfan]

1)Honestly, because it never crossed my mind.
2)No, never played a game with a SK in forum mafia before.
3)I would guess the vig kill is pap since I think tcla was obv town.
4)Suprisingly enough I haven't been mafia yet on MS.

[Maxous]

Pappums rat did and said little. I find it more likely he was shot by a town-aligned vig unless the mafia/SK beleived he was keeping a low profile as he had an important power role.
2 mafia groups seem unlikely IMO.

Tcwlaren was growing increasingly suspicious of bgg during the twilight - mentioned here
Truant completely skipped over that in this post

While I am at it,
@: Regfan why is'nt Bgg included in your list here?

Even if you're scum, you don't just go do everything that town wouldn't do.
If somebody does something that town normally wouldn't do, I don't automatically assume that that person must be scum, because scum would have no reason to do such a thing.

Anyway, you seem to be saying that I came up with this idea because I wanted to gain credibility.
But that wasn't the reason that I did not vote him. On the contrary, I had thought that he the he was, indeed, scum. I wanted to gain information on other players before we lynched him.

I was even thinking of keeping him alive as a kind-of scum-pet. Of course, if we had kept the day going, we may have found real scum, maybe even the SK. Not to mention the fact that we would have found out that there was indeed two mafia groups by now, possibly (but probably not) having him confirmed.

The bolded part confuses me a lot :/

1) i don't know but since most people think it's 3 then ill go with that....and whats a ml?
3) i dont know either....

VOTE: CuriousKarmaDog
I suggest this because after looking back at everyones post, when everyone started to claim me as possible or actually scum ckd sided with me so i'm assuming

3 what? Mafia members? A ML is "mislynch" I.E. lynching a townsperson.
Could you further explain what your saying about CKD please?

im surprised tclawren didnt hammer

He was attempting to. It explains the 'unvoting incident'.

@ Truant: What 'hard evidence' is there for the case of Yura being scum?