Newbie 1070 - Game Over

[Ellyssa]

Can't help but notice that Quaroath you view as town and agree with Nacho, but in the next post you contradict yourself entirely and put him in the scum-picks... Wishy-washy much?

Word twisting. I did not put Quaroath in the scum picks. I said, and I re-quote,

I think there may be one in the Quaroath/Rain/Stels voting bloc too.

Elaborating on that a little, it's because it makes a lot of sense that a scum would be trying to inflame the conflict that's been going on there. Yes, I do see Q and Rain as town and you as neutral (and split's in the mix a little too but he wasn't in day 1), which is why I think one of my reads is wrong, cause I can't see them ALL three being town, and mafia not stepping in to try to distract town into making a possible mislynch out of one of the three, or get caught themselves and get lynched. Is it possible? Sure.

@T-Bone: Any reason for Rain suspicion? That opinion's been unmentioned so far as well?

@Quaroath/Stels/Rain What is your read on T-Bone? Do you think he's top two scum from my arguments? I don't think you three have said anything about him or this little war in Day 2 yet. He's obviously scummy to me and I'd like to know if I can get the support for a lynch or if you all are set on killing Rain or barefoot (though Stels is voting barefoot now for a comment he made to T-Bone, he didn't actually address T-Bone or my points againts each other).

[Ellyssa]

EBWOP: It used to say "Sure, but unlikely" at the end of that one paragraph, and then the last couple words got eaten.

[Stels]

@Ellyssa:

Scum picks:

T-bone is currently high on my scumdar for reasons stated earlier. I'm not sure if I post too much since no one else seems to agree!

I think there may be one in the Quaroath/Rain/Stels voting bloc too, just because they've been at each other since middle day 1, but concentrating on a different person each time, and effectively tying up votes in relation to trying to lynch anyone else. First Rain attacked Quaroath and Stels joined in while Quaroath attacked both of them back, then now Rain attacked Stels and Quaroath attacked Rain (joining on Split's points) and Stels hasn't weighed in on either of them due to RL assignments. I get the feeling one of them is instigating the other two a bit to keep the flames fanned, but I can't decide who, because both Rain and Quaroath have voted each other, as well as Stels (and even Jack) by now.

Nacho/barefoot has residual suspicion, but it's weaker than I felt middle of day 1, because I felt on a reread I did near the end of D1 that much of it was due to a slight language barrier, so she ended up fighting lots of words and phrasing instead. There were some valid points early on that were either newbtells or scumtells (though possibly both) that were pointed out, but she seemed to try to avoid them after. Nacho has only posted once and I did not get scum vibes from that.

Yet you put him up here in this section as well as myself (and Rain). You also separated the 3 sections with three dashes (---) between the sections (Town, Scum, T-Bone).
Plus, I didn't ask for your opinion on me or Rain. I asked for you to explain why he's in the same category as me. And no offence.

@Quaroath/Stels/Rain What is your read on T-Bone? Do you think he's top two scum from my arguments? I don't think you three have said anything about him or this little war in Day 2 yet. He's obviously scummy to me and I'd like to know if I can get the support for a lynch or if you all are set on killing Rain or barefoot (though Stels is voting barefoot now for a comment he made to T-Bone, he didn't actually address T-Bone or my points againts each other).

Honestly, I think he's just begging to be lynched with his stuck-up attitude. He hasn't done anything this entire game, except chase after you, which ATM is quite stupid seeing as how you're such a pro-town force. The fact that he always wanted to vote you from the start and "the perfect time" to wait and vote for you doesn't stick well with me. It's like saying "Hey! I eat babies even though I am a vegetarian."

@Ellyssa: Also, barefoot-fighter doesn't exist anymore. It's Nachomamma8 now!

[Ellyssa]

Right, my bad, you're voting Nacho now. Meant the slot, but you are voting Nacho based on a Nacho action and not a barefoot action.

Ah I see what you mean from the dashes comment. The first dash was to divide it between the two questions that Split had asked everyone (#265). So part 1 answered his game question there, and part 2 his "Who are your scum picks?" question there. Why I divided it is to isolate the game mechanic question away by itself as it may have been seen as more of a theory question (which people frown on as scummy I believe?).

The second dash was added when I preview edited, I saw T-Bone's reply and was going to craft another wall of text back at it (after dinner). It was separate from the scumpicks thing so I threw it in in its own section.

That's the thing about the three of you. You seem to be scumhunting now (even attacking me, but giving me points and quotes and 'proof' that I can try to refute) so you seem to be leaning town to me too (or I could be just tunneling T-Bone and not seeing others' scumminess, that's probably partially true too), but while all 3 of you were neutral or town at that point, I couldn't pick one out of the three, even though my logic states there's one in that crowd.

That's possibly better stated as "I think it's likely two of them are town and one is scum, but I'm not sure WHICH one is scum." Not that I think all 3 are scum. And the answer to why they were in the same group was due to voting and argument patterns on each other from mid Day 1.

[Rain]

I quickly lost interest in barefoot's ISO, while muh's ISO grew scummier by the post. Nothing short of a scum claim would've made me vote for barefoot over muh.

Pretty much everyone was transparent (I'm guessing you mean posting who's scum and who's town?), except for T-Bone. Also, no one called muh town for cred after the lynch (save Ellyssa, but that was one smiley and since you've pegged her as town, I'm assuming you've chosen to disregard that? I don't blame you though, I find her town as well). I have a hard time seeing why you think Stels is town.

About the Ellyssa/T-Bone debate, T-Bone makes zero sense. Right now, I'm still trying to decide whether it's scum play or plain bad play. I would probably not oppose to his lynch.

[Alduskkel]

Vote Count

Rain (2) - Quaroath, Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8 (1) - Stels
T-Bone (1) - Ellyssa
Ellyssa (1) - T-Bone
Stels (1) - Rain

Not Voting (1) - splitfarvle

With 7 alive it is 4 to lynch.

[splitfarvle]

Thought I already voted, but somehow I didn't. Meant to vote for Rain, but I don't want to put him at L-1 yet so on to my second scummiest suspect.

VOTE: T-Bone

[Ellyssa]

Well the smiley (sadfacey) was to his bah post, as an apology since I was on the wagon too. Could you/someone please define the town for cred thing? I thought that was mostly something done by someone not on the wagon as an "I knew it all along" kind of statement post-flip?

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry Nacho, but this strikes me as coaching T-Bone :'(

What would that little blurb accomplish if I were coaching him? Why would he disregard my advice if we were both scum?

Well the smiley (sadfacey) was to his bah post, as an apology since I was on the wagon too. Could you/someone please define the town for cred thing? I thought that was mostly something done by someone not on the wagon as an "I knew it all along" kind of statement post-flip?

Yeah, you're right. Usually though, scum fight the lynch so they'll be remembered as the person who was actively trying not to mislynch a townie.

[Stels]

@Ellyssa: Fair enough.

I have a hard time seeing why you think Stels is town.

Honestly, IDC whether I'm viewed as town or scum.
In fact:

Honestly? Some people are looking more and more like they need my vote more than Stels does. Don't worry guys, I'm very generous with my vote. Just look at the love Stels has for me.

I appreciate your feelings for me, but I don't swing that way.
I don't really mind it being there

, you're just voting me based on the fact that I jumped onto the Jack Forman wagon and that's it.

Sorry Nacho, but this strikes me as coaching T-Bone :'(

What would that little blurb accomplish if I were coaching him? Why would he disregard my advice if we were both scum?

The fact that he's being outright scummy, coaching him might get him into a better situation. Giving random blurbs of advice is not scummy if you were an SE or IC this game, but you're not ;P Especially when most of the players know how the game works by now as well as T-Bone already having experience, I find your action even more scummy in this situation.

[T-Bone]

Alright, Ellyssa you officially post too much for me to keep up with. You can rebuttal all you want. I made a read on you, and you don't like it, fine. Who's to say I'm not correct? I still don't get why I'm scum, other than my naturally scummy play style.

As for my suspicion of Rain, it's just something I'm keeping in the back of my mind. I echo the sentiments that have been said about him thus far. Fair points have been made about him. I don't need to repeat them.

Let's see who else has addressed me. Give Ellyssa a break because going back and forth with her shall get us no where.

@Stels. If I haven't done anything, then you've certainly done less. Tell me oh great one, what have you done? Gone on vacation? Check. Placed a couple of votes while echoing what other people are saying? Check. Doing everything but scum hunting? Check.

Honestly, I

think he's just begging to be lynched with his stuck-up attitude.

He hasn't done anything this entire game, except chase after you, which ATM is quite stupid seeing as how

you're such a pro-town force

. The fact that he always wanted to vote you from the start and "the perfect time" to wait and vote for you doesn't stick well with me. It's like saying "Hey! I eat babies even though I am a vegetarian."

I bolded two states here. The first one, nice way to brush off an excuse to add your vote to my looming bandwagon. I imagine you will vote me, and when I come back town you'll use the excuse "Well he's posting like an asshole anyway". Great way to scumhunt right there buddy.

I bolded the second part, not too attack you Ellyssa but to muse about this bold statement. Ellyssa is a pro-town force? Because she posts massive posts and breaks down everything everyone says word by word? How does that make her town. Couldn't scum just as easily do the same thing? What you're basically admitting is that Ellyssa is in control of the town. Giving one player 'control' is pretty dangerous. 'Control' is exactly what scum want. No, I'm not saying that she's scum because she's in control.

@Rain - Wow. You just did the same thing Stels did, two posts later. "Oh I'll vote T-Bone if the bandwagon forms." Nice way to scum hunt brother. My reasons for Ellyssa don't make sense to you, and that's fine. But here you use that as a pre-excuse to eventually hop on my bandwagon.

@Split - Actually I'm much more okay with your vote then Stels and Rain's prevote. Unlike them, you're taking responsibility for your vote. When I flip town, it's gonna make everyone who lynched me look bad. But, as a member of the town you shouldn't worry about that. I like it. Not so much the vote on me, but actually having the conviction to do so.

@Nacho - I guess the same holds true that I said last time. The difference between what I'm doing and what you're doing, is that I'm willing to lynch whoever I think is most scum. Right now Ellyssa is it. Day 2 is young, that could very easily change. What I still have a problem with is that your 1st post in the game you've already decided "I'm gonna vote T-Bone or Rain, depending on who's bandwagon starts rolling." I don't get how that's pro-town play.

Now I'm going to do something shocking and change my tune a little bit. I am much happier with your rebuttals than your original post. Do I think you were seedplanting? 100%. Do I think you were breadcrumbing a vote on me? 100%. But like Split you are taken responsibility for your vote, and part of me doesn't see scum doing that. After these last few posts by Stels, Nacho, and Rain, you're looking like a less desirable lynch.

@ Everyone. That's about as good of a list from me as you're gonna get. Am I finally "doing it right?"

[T-Bone]

EBWOP

@Quaroath/Stels/Rain What is your read on T-Bone? Do you think he's top two scum from my arguments? I don't think you three have said anything about him or this little war in Day 2 yet. He's obviously scummy to me and I'd like to know if I can get the support for a lynch or if you all are set on killing Rain or barefoot (though Stels is voting barefoot now for a comment he made to T-Bone, he didn't actually address T-Bone or my points againts each other).

Sorry gotta pull a Quaroth here and double post. This last quote bothers me slightly. It reads to me "Hey guys how willing are you to support my lynch on Bone?"

If they had opinions, couldn't they express them on their own? Why do you have to solicit a response? I don't see any other player doing this with as much frequency and blatantly as you are. Why do you have to ask if others are willing to support my lynch? What if they all came back and said, "No we want to lynch Nacho!" Would that give you a pretext to go... "Alright guys, I'll vote Nacho too"

P.S. As an aside. Goddammit guys stop making me quote so much!

[Ellyssa]

Oh, I was trying to garner support for a lynch because while I feel you are scum, part of it is convincing the rest of the town too or we'll go nowhere regarding the lynch. Same goes the other way, you may feel I'm scum but if the rest of the town doesn't agree, you won't going to be able to lynch me. Call it an extension of this:

But like Split you are taken responsibility for your vote, and part of me doesn't see scum doing that.

No problem if you're scum since you can just NK me, but if you're town, you'd have had to convince the rest to vote me at some point, and similarly I on you, so when I went back to look for opinions, I did not see any by those three on this topic thus far, and I poked them about it.


Also I don't feel like you've answered a couple points yet (regarding reads from earlier days on me and such) but I like the hunting in your post anyhow, so thank you very much if you are town. I'll analyze it tomorrow though. *late*

[Quaroath]

I promise a catch up post tomorrow, hopefully in the morning, if not in the evening. Wife s finally home, been a bad weekend.

[Stels]

@T-Bone: What got up your ass today? Am I not scumhunting now? My vote is on Nachomamma8 right now. Why does how I feel towards you immediately give you such a reaction? The fact that you're afraid to die clearly shows. I don't fear hopping onto your bandwagon when I have good enough reason. Even if it makes me look scummy with all the taunts you've made against me just now, I'm not afraid. Ellyssa is and has been pro-town this whole game, I haven't seen her act scummy once, except for that mix-up between me and her. Her massive posts have content, something that me and you both lack. I never said I was giving her or anyone here any control.

[Rain]

@Stels
Coaching is only really revealing when the person on the receiving end flips scum, otherwise it's a null tell. Also, Nacho has the credentials to be an IC. This is not scumhunting, this is exaggerating.

@T-Bone
This is not a pre-excuse, it's you digging a deeper hole everytime you post something against Ellyssa.

Parroting Nacho here, if you really think Ellyssa's scum, who is likely her partner?

[T-Bone]

Hold it, hold it Rain.

So you're saying because I think Ellyssa is scum, that makes me scum? In what universe does that logic work? Looking pro-town and being town are two mutually exclusive things. Unless you know for sure she's town because you're scum that is, and are buddying up to her.

As for her partner, it's a hard choice since all of you have your heads firmly placed...you know the rest.

[Quaroath]

@rain Why did you lose interest in the barefoot iso? And given that you did, to muh, what do you think about the new bare-nacho amalgam of posts. Nacho is swinging like a pendulum for me scum/town on a nearly post by post basis.

@Splits post 281. That is crap.

In response to that

unvote:vote Splitfarvle

Money + mouth, you are seriously hedging about voting rain. As much as T-bone says he’s fine with your vote .. I’m not. A.) This could be a bussing post that could go under the radar. B.) You are already setting up a Rain vote but only by implication, this clears you for voting later by saying “Well, I said waaay back here Rain was my top suspect, I just didn’t want to L-1 him. This is the same problem T-bone has with Stels and Rains “prevotes”

Also Splits Iso #4 seems like a serious breadcrumb for a day 2 case, when Rain was functioning in IC capacity at the time.

@split Do you have any particular reads on people besides Jack that you want to share? I think you brought up an interesting coaching point at Rain back in #85, though that could be a rather WIFOM-y argument, but like Rain said, may be useful in the future if either of them flip scum. What do you think of barefoot?

I'm pretty much done with Jack for now, I can't tell if he's scum or not and I don't know how I feel about a policy lynch at this point. If he actually comes back to the thread and helps us find scum, that would be great.

One thing that I find difficult in reading Rain is his role as IC. It doesn't help us to scumhunt if Rain is dropping knowledge that might be used by scum to appear more town. I don't think that part of my suspicion goes away if Jack flips town.

Hard for an IC to do their job without helping both sides. And you use this as a base for your case in your ISO #20 for the case on rain.

Re-reading the thread, I changed my mind about not voting yet because I want to put my money where my mouth is about finding muh316 to be scummy.

VOTE: muh316

That avatar is probably Wario in disguise

You put your money where your mouth was here, an hour and a half after waffling on Muh. I'm seriously starting to rethink my read on you. Putting Rain at L-1 would be dangerous.. but anyone who quick-hammered, or hammered period at this point in the day would be either serious poor-town, or scum quickhmmering, which is poor scum play. Either way it's bad play to hammer.

@Splits iso #14 bothers me on several levels.

Here is the post:

barefoot-fighter: She had some pressure on her due to perceived fence-sitting about Jack and her initial support of a No Lynch, and she didn't come across as scummy to me in her responses. Her posting style makes her seem like a new player to me. She hasn't been contributing much since, though. In my limited experience scum likes to slip through the cracks. It struck me in both games I've played how often a scum flip would elicit a "Man, I forgot he/she was even in the game" from other players. I would support a barefoot lynch at this time for that reason alone, but would prefer a replacement if she continues to lurk.

Ellyssa: Has often posted things I was thinking, and I think her playing has mostly benefited the town. The only reservation I have comes into play if muh316 flips scum, as Ellyssa offers a defense for him in post #112

Jack Forman: I really don't see why he is making so many people's town lists, but I am glad we seem to be beyond discussing the No Lynch issue (for the most part) and that he's challenging other players on different points. I'm neutral on Jack right now.

muh316: Still think he's the scummiest, and I'm comfortable with my vote. The only new point I want to bring up is something in #149:

Barefoot was not the only one I suspected.


Here's how I do it. I list everyone who I think is town. The rest are not clear enough to be considered town.
Town: Jack, split, T-bone, Rain
The other 4 I'm not very sure of what to think about them.

It makes no sense to me to say that you have suspicions for more than barefoot, then refuse to say who else you're suspicious of and why. I do not think you're playing to help the town win.

Quaroath: Initially I had a townie feeling for him. The arguments he's had have brought out a lot of defensive posting from him, and he's been more challenging to read.

Rain: Still tough to read maybe because I'm too hung up on his role as IC, but he does seem to be playing the game. I suspect my opinion on him will swing from neutral depending on D1/N1 flips.

Stels: Seems fairly clear about who he thinks is scum and why (even despite being V/LA for a spell), and I see that as more pro-town than scum.

T-Bone: Neutral. Wish I had more to say, but I have a gut feeling that keeps me from thinking he's town even though I haven't seen much from him that I would say is scummy.

1st: Jack Forman: Srsly? You don’t want to make a read on the easiest to read player in the game? That’s serious D1 fence sitting. Even saying you think he's probably one or the other is better than "I have no read on the most discussed player"

2nd: Myself/Stels in this post. So you had an initial townie feeling for me, that went away. What caused it to go away? Was it my making it “fairly clear who I thought was scum?” My defensive posting came from getting into it with Stels and Rain. Or is that more scummy than pro-town? How does being clear about who you think is scum read as pro-town. T-bone thinks Elyssa is scum. That makes him town… right? This one post is riddled with issues you are contradicting.

What I get out of this post is, I think Muh is scum, but really don’t have a read on anyone else. Everyone else is neutral- town lean. This sounds very T-boneish. As in, tunnel a suspect.

"Lets see if I can convince others, he's the most scummy townie."


For the record, my gut is screaming at me that Stels is town now. This really pisses me off for reasons I can’t explain.

Pps. My wife has Pneumonia, and a parasite she's going to carry around for 9 months then keep around for at least 18 years. At the same time!

[Rain]

Awww... That sucks. I hear a coat hanger can solve this kind of problem.

...

Just kidding. Don't. I'm happy for you.

Btw, T-Bone, that looks like some poorly concealed threat there. First of all, I have no problems acting on my convictions, and it just so happens I have a strong conviction Ellyssa's town. I don't mind you, or anyone else for that matter, attacking her, but so far your case is garbage, which is why I find you scummier in comparison.

WIFOM bomb: Don't forget that there might be a cop in this game. It might explain why some people are unnaturally protective of certain people.

I don't see you being a partner with Stels though. If he flips town, I might reconsider a T-Bone + Quaroath duo since Quar's latest posts have yet to mention T-Bone in any significant way (reminiscent of my d1 point much? sans confusing names this time around), but honestly, there's little scum motives behind his D2 pushes. His infrequent posts and RL issues might be clouding scumminess but.... eh. Stels is still scummier.

Barefoot was iffy. Nacho is town. I believe in Nacho, even if Nacho doesn't believe in me.

[Quaroath]

Awww... That sucks. I hear a coat hanger can solve this kind of problem.

...

Just kidding. Don't. I'm happy for you.

Btw, T-Bone, that looks like some poorly concealed threat there. First of all, I have no problems acting on my convictions, and it just so happens I have a strong conviction Ellyssa's town. I don't mind you, or anyone else for that matter, attacking her, but so far your case is garbage, which is why I find you scummier in comparison.

WIFOM bomb: Don't forget that there might be a cop in this game. It might explain why some people are unnaturally protective of certain people.

I don't see you being a partner with Stels though. If he flips town, I might reconsider a T-Bone + Quaroath duo since Quar's latest posts have yet to mention T-Bone in any significant way (reminiscent of my d1 point much? sans confusing names this time around), but honestly, there's little scum motives behind his D2 pushes. His infrequent posts and RL issues might be clouding scumminess but.... eh. Stels is still scummier.

Barefoot was iffy. Nacho is town. I believe in Nacho, even if Nacho doesn't believe in me.

Honestly T-bone just doesn't interest me at this point, I'm watching him but he's pushing one person I have zero interest in voting today, and I think he's doing it poorly.. He also tunneled a confirmed townie D1. I don't think he's scum, I just don't think he's effectively hunting scum either.

YMMV

[splitfarvle]

@Splits post 281. That is crap.

In response to that

unvote:vote Splitfarvle

I said what I meant. My post #264 was supposed to end with a vote for Rain, which I overlooked and didn't realize until I saw the votecount.

Money + mouth, you are seriously hedging about voting rain. As much as T-bone says he’s fine with your vote .. I’m not. A.) This could be a bussing post that could go under the radar. B.) You are already setting up a Rain vote but only by implication, this clears you for voting later by saying “Well, I said waaay back here Rain was my top suspect, I just didn’t want to L-1 him. This is the same problem T-bone has with Stels and Rains “prevotes”

Is it really that unbelievable that I wouldn't want to put a player at L-1 this early in the day, particularly considering what happened on D1? And how exactly is it supposed to go under the radar when I've been the most vocal about Rain's hammer (a point you seemed to like once upon a post) or his potential motive in the Jack NK?

Also Splits Iso #4 seems like a serious breadcrumb for a day 2 case, when Rain was functioning in IC capacity at the time.

@split Do you have any particular reads on people besides Jack that you want to share? I think you brought up an interesting coaching point at Rain back in #85, though that could be a rather WIFOM-y argument, but like Rain said, may be useful in the future if either of them flip scum. What do you think of barefoot?

I'm pretty much done with Jack for now, I can't tell if he's scum or not and I don't know how I feel about a policy lynch at this point. If he actually comes back to the thread and helps us find scum, that would be great.

One thing that I find difficult in reading Rain is his role as IC. It doesn't help us to scumhunt if Rain is dropping knowledge that might be used by scum to appear more town. I don't think that part of my suspicion goes away if Jack flips town.

Hard for an IC to do their job without helping both sides. And you use this as a base for your case in your ISO #20 for the case on rain.

I was/am suspicious about the concept of an IC in these games because of the potential for unethical use to aid either scum or town. Probably a healthy dose of paranoia on my part, but it's what I feel. Ideally, the IC would be able to completely separate his/her roles but we're all only human. If it helps at all, I haven't mentioned anything of the sort in my posts about Rain on D2.

If that isn't convincing, maybe a couple of old friends from #44 will explain it better:

One more thing, remember, the IC can be scum. He can give out all this good info and there might be an evil mastermind behind him. So just keep that in mind. Its not that I'm accusing Rain of anything

QTF. Though, I'd hope that Rain has a IC mode and a player mode. Laying stuff out as "From the IC to forward the scum line if the IC is scum is.. well.. scummy. (ha) That's not a comment of Rain either, just a comment on the IC system as a whole.

Re-reading the thread, I changed my mind about not voting yet because I want to put my money where my mouth is about finding muh316 to be scummy.

VOTE: muh316

That avatar is probably Wario in disguise

You put your money where your mouth was here, an hour and a half after waffling on Muh. I'm seriously starting to rethink my read on you. Putting Rain at L-1 would be dangerous.. but anyone who quick-hammered, or hammered period at this point in the day would be either serious poor-town, or scum quickhmmering, which is poor scum play. Either way it's bad play to hammer.

Is this an example of WIFOM? Just because you think it's bad scum play doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. And you admit it

could

be poor-town instead if it happened. Whatever wishy-washy pre-quickhammer conclusion you've come to doesn't matter, because the day ends early just the same. And how is being the first, and for quite a while only, player to build any sort of case on or vote for muh waffling about him?

@Splits iso #14 bothers me on several levels.

Here is the post:

barefoot-fighter: She had some pressure on her due to perceived fence-sitting about Jack and her initial support of a No Lynch, and she didn't come across as scummy to me in her responses. Her posting style makes her seem like a new player to me. She hasn't been contributing much since, though. In my limited experience scum likes to slip through the cracks. It struck me in both games I've played how often a scum flip would elicit a "Man, I forgot he/she was even in the game" from other players. I would support a barefoot lynch at this time for that reason alone, but would prefer a replacement if she continues to lurk.

Ellyssa: Has often posted things I was thinking, and I think her playing has mostly benefited the town. The only reservation I have comes into play if muh316 flips scum, as Ellyssa offers a defense for him in post #112

Jack Forman: I really don't see why he is making so many people's town lists, but I am glad we seem to be beyond discussing the No Lynch issue (for the most part) and that he's challenging other players on different points. I'm neutral on Jack right now.

muh316: Still think he's the scummiest, and I'm comfortable with my vote. The only new point I want to bring up is something in #149:

Barefoot was not the only one I suspected.


Here's how I do it. I list everyone who I think is town. The rest are not clear enough to be considered town.
Town: Jack, split, T-bone, Rain
The other 4 I'm not very sure of what to think about them.

It makes no sense to me to say that you have suspicions for more than barefoot, then refuse to say who else you're suspicious of and why. I do not think you're playing to help the town win.

Quaroath: Initially I had a townie feeling for him. The arguments he's had have brought out a lot of defensive posting from him, and he's been more challenging to read.

Rain: Still tough to read maybe because I'm too hung up on his role as IC, but he does seem to be playing the game. I suspect my opinion on him will swing from neutral depending on D1/N1 flips.

Stels: Seems fairly clear about who he thinks is scum and why (even despite being V/LA for a spell), and I see that as more pro-town than scum.

T-Bone: Neutral. Wish I had more to say, but I have a gut feeling that keeps me from thinking he's town even though I haven't seen much from him that I would say is scummy.

1st: Jack Forman: Srsly? You don’t want to make a read on the easiest to read player in the game? That’s serious D1 fence sitting. Even saying you think he's probably one or the other is better than "I have no read on the most discussed player"

2nd: Myself/Stels in this post. So you had an initial townie feeling for me, that went away. What caused it to go away? Was it my making it “fairly clear who I thought was scum?” My defensive posting came from getting into it with Stels and Rain. Or is that more scummy than pro-town? How does being clear about who you think is scum read as pro-town. T-bone thinks Elyssa is scum. That makes him town… right? This one post is riddled with issues you are contradicting.

What I get out of this post is, I think Muh is scum, but really don’t have a read on anyone else. Everyone else is neutral- town lean. This sounds very T-boneish. As in, tunnel a suspect.

"Lets see if I can convince others, he's the most scummy townie."


For the record, my gut is screaming at me that Stels is town now. This really pisses me off for reasons I can’t explain.

Pps. My wife has Pneumonia, and a parasite she's going to carry around for 9 months then keep around for at least 18 years. At the same time!

I probably did tunnel muh, but he was the scummiest player to me by far. barefoot didn't give me much to work with that others hadn't already picked over, and I was having trouble with pinpointing my gut feeling about T-Bone. Rain was a distant consideration until the hammer. Also, I didn't seem to need to convince anyone else to vote for muh, he convinced them himself. Most of the commentary on my case was that it was unconvincing.

And yes, Srsly! It doesn't matter to me that a lot of other players thought Jack was town. My read on him for the entirety of D1 was this: a disruptive player who seemed to be slipping in and doing some scumhunting towards the end, with no input at all in the couple of days before the hammer. In fact, he finally changed his No Lynch vote to muh shortly after I gave that read on him. Being totally honest, at the end of D1 he was my third scum suspect after barefoot and Rain.

I don't see the contradiction you mentioned, as both you and Stels had very different D1s. I saw you start with questions and pressure on other players, then everything went screwy as I found both sides of the argument between you and Rain to be lacking. You also seem to change your mind almost out of nowhere, which makes it harder for me to peg your alignment. So I guess you did make it "fairly clear who you thought was scum" in your posts, at least until the next time you posted.

[T-Bone]

@Rain. Whoa whoa. That's a mighty fine fishing pole you're considering whipping out. There's no reason for me to consider a Cop in this equation, because there's no reason for a Cop to out themselves to protect a townie.

@ Quaroth - I'm sorry. CONFIRMED TOWNIE? The only people who 100% know who is town, is the mafia. So, was that a Freudian slip? Gonna kill Ellyssa tonight so that she flips town, so you can come back Day 3 and say "see I knew Ellyssa was town!"

Unvote

I think Ellyssa with so many people "knowing" that you are 100% town, that some of them are scum buddying up to you so that they can look more town. The thing is people keep making statements that they know you are 100% town, and the only people who know that for sure are the mafia. So here's the deal. Why you claimed that putting pressure on you was pointless, I got a lot of people to reveal some interesting things. So why I don't know for sure if you are town or not, I'm feeling more comfortable with lynching someone "confirming" you as town, then you.

See what a little discussion gets us guys? People like Quaroth "confirming" other players based on no actual facts. Quaroth, that's not called "confirming" that's called buddying. Same thing for you Rain, you don't know that Ellyssa is town, unless YOU are scum. However, other than that comment I like the rest of Quaroth's points, so maybe he made a legit town mistake. I don't know.

Side Note: I apologize for the everyone having their heads up Ellyssa's butt comment, I think that was a little too out of line to get the point across.

[Ellyssa]

Sorry for lack of posting recently. Most of my free time has been going toward an MMO commitment.

@Quaroath Congrats!

@T-Bone I agree with your latest post. Except that I don't think he meant me, I think he was talking about either Stels, or muh, which were the two people you voted D1. Or were you referring to another post besides his #294? However, like you mentioned, I think there's a lot of WIFOM being thrown around, and Mafia may be trying to set up an NK by proclaiming someone townie though, just like what I accused Quaroath in D1 for.

I don't really see a problem with the pre-votes for the most part, honestly, since there are still two more scum, in that it's an extension of having suspect lists. If there was only one more then it would be a major, major scumtell.

@Rain #293 Appreciated, but wow, that's an uncomfortable post. See the possible thing about NK above in the point to T-Bone. That WIFOM bomb is oh so muddy, heh. We didn't really need that, we're more than halfway through, only 10 days away or so (right mod?) from the end. I do wonder if you meant to say that as an IC, or as a player under the guise of being an IC. I'm not sure it's inherently scummy, but it's kind of softclaiming cop..

@Quaroath You voted Rain early on in D2 via agreeing with split's points, and now you're voting split. Does that mean you think they are the two scum and think split was distancing himself from Rain there?

[Quaroath]

@Rain. Whoa whoa. That's a mighty fine fishing pole you're considering whipping out. There's no reason for me to consider a Cop in this equation, because there's no reason for a Cop to out themselves to protect a townie.

@ Quaroth - I'm sorry. CONFIRMED TOWNIE? The only people who 100% know who is town, is the mafia. So, was that a Freudian slip? Gonna kill Ellyssa tonight so that she flips town, so you can come back Day 3 and say "see I knew Ellyssa was town!"

Unvote

I think Ellyssa with so many people "knowing" that you are 100% town, that some of them are scum buddying up to you so that they can look more town. The thing is people keep making statements that they know you are 100% town, and the only people who know that for sure are the mafia. So here's the deal. Why you claimed that putting pressure on you was pointless, I got a lot of people to reveal some interesting things. So why I don't know for sure if you are town or not, I'm feeling more comfortable with lynching someone "confirming" you as town, then you.

See what a little discussion gets us guys? People like Quaroth "confirming" other players based on no actual facts. Quaroth, that's not called "confirming" that's called buddying. Same thing for you Rain, you don't know that Ellyssa is town, unless YOU are scum. However, other than that comment I like the rest of Quaroth's points, so maybe he made a legit town mistake. I don't know.

Side Note: I apologize for the everyone having their heads up Ellyssa's butt comment, I think that was a little too out of line to get the point across.

Let me quote what I said.

Honestly T-bone just doesn't interest me at this point, I'm watching him but he's pushing one person I have zero interest in voting today, and I think he's doing it poorly.. He also tunneled a confirmed townie D1. I don't think he's scum, I just don't think he's effectively hunting scum either.

YMMV

I'm

pretty god-damned

sure Jack is a confirmed townie. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ellyssa]

But Toad didn't tunnel Jack on D1.. they argued a bit at the end over his lack of any sort of tells but Toad was mostly on Stels D1.