Mini 1137: Long Overdue Mafia [Game Over!]


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Post Post #275 (ISO) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:55 am

Post by Rhinox »

Votecount 1.9

andrew94 (0) -
Xalxe (1) - P.T. Barnum
neil1113 (1) - Cecily
P.T. Barnum (0) -
Jahudo (0) -
Jerbs (1) - Jinxx
mikemike778 (0) -
Idiotking (0) -
Jinxx (0) -
Voidedmafia (0) -
Cecily (0) -
havingfitz (3) - mikemike778, pappums rat, Jahudo
pappums rat (4) - Voidedmafia, havingfitz, andrew94, neil1113

not voting (3): Jerbs, Idiotking, Xalxe

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1 is Wednesday, March 30 at 9:00AM EST.

neil1113 is V/LA for the weekend.

You guys probably won't get another VC until sunday evening, but I'll be monitoring things throughout the weekend from my cell phone. If there is a lynch, the thread will be locked and I'll do the mod scene on sunday.


Xalxe's doorbell has been rung.
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Post Post #276 (ISO) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:23 am

Post by Jinxx »

Sorry, I don't have time to go through all of these new posts... fitz's walls are annoyingly huge. I might find time to post tonight though.
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Post Post #277 (ISO) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:13 am

Post by Voidedmafia »

pappums rat wrote:
havingfitz wrote:Remind me where I made a personal attack on you pappum...
every time you have said i lied or called me a liar. i made it clear that this was a gambit, and i took every opportunity i could to ensure that vm would not get lynched, right from the very first post of the gambit.
It's still lying, which I believe is his point. <_<
Jerbs wrote:your gambit didn't accomplish much tho
wow! zomg! that makes me scum, doesnt it?! (obviously i disagree that the gambit didnt accomplish much, as we have a lot of reactions to analyze)
pappums rat wrote:
andrew94 wrote:@ pappums, you retracted it because you had to.
if we lynched voided and he flipped town, there are no excuses for your 'fail'.
thus, you would have been lynched the next day.

not wishing for a 1 1 tradeoff, you decided to cancel the gambit.
its that simple.
i made it explicitly clear that i did not want him lynched, and even unvoted him when he was at l-1 to ensure someone would not hammer him. the whole point of this was to gauge people's reactions to having 'confirmed scum' and what sort of action they would take because of it.
You're still disregarding the fact that, no matter the precautions, I STILL could've been lynched by someone who was overeager. Jerbs could've, or anyone else who hadn't voted yet.
pappums rat wrote:all right then, i am done talking about the gambit, if anyone tries to flamebait me again into explaining it (which i have done in detail) i am just going to ignore them. the results of the gambit speak for themselves, and i am voting accordingly.
nice distancing, brah. Sorry for you, but we're still gonna talk about the gambit, whether or not you want us to.

Besides, I'm still satisfied leaving my vote on Pappums.
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Post Post #278 (ISO) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:14 am

Post by Voidedmafia »

EBWOP: oops.

Ignore the part that's him replying to Jerbs. I just forgot to take that out.
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Post Post #279 (ISO) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:00 am

Post by Cecily »

Hey, so I don't have time to post today probably, but I'll be back tomorrow for some well read response. Spring break has changed my schedule so this week will be a little weird on my part.
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Post Post #280 (ISO) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:06 am

Post by andrew94 »

the fact is, its all ?? about whether rats is lying or not. the only way to figure it out is to lynch him
i hate walls, i will only skim walls.
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Post Post #281 (ISO) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:38 pm

Post by Idiotking »

Reading through these wallposts is giving me a headache. Can't you guys try to argue in a concise manner? At least a little bit? You're making my brain bleed, here.

After reading through the last couple of pages in a sleep-deprived stupor, I have decided to

Vote havingfitz


Predominantly because of his incredible shifting loyalties. He absolutely believed that pappums was town when pappums claimed cop, which is just a poor conclusion to reach, given that it could have been (and was) a gambit or a lie.
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Post Post #282 (ISO) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:39 pm

Post by Idiotking »

Ah crap. I didn't mean to hit submit. I was trying to work on that more.
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Post Post #283 (ISO) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:50 pm

Post by Idiotking »

Ok.

So havingfitz believed pappums' claim without adequately exploring any other possibilities. A symptom of that was is wish to have a quicklynch of voided. Why should a claim made under suspicious circumstances lead to a quicklynch, particularly on D1 when there is hardly any information anyway? There really isn't a good reason. Then, immediately following pappum's revelation that it was a gambit, fitz freaks out and attacks pappums, claiming that he (who fitz claimed probably wasn't lying and as such was probably town) is lying scum. This turnaround is so absolute and happened so quickly that I doubt it could ever be topped.

I'm sure this has been brought up somewhere in the wallposts, but as I said, reading through them made my brain sore.
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Post Post #284 (ISO) » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:24 pm

Post by P.T. Barnum »

Xalxe is going to be replaced, I guess.
Unvote
Vote Jerbs
There's a sucker born every minute.
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Post Post #285 (ISO) » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:34 pm

Post by neil1113 »

Back from V/LA


noted, welcome back!
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Post Post #286 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:58 am

Post by havingfitz »

Jahudo wrote:Pappums said not to quicklynch.
  • havingfitz wrote:The fact he asked for no quicklynch means nothing to me as I did not share his opinion on the matter. IMO a confirmed scum so early on D1 was better off eliminated asap.


Jahudo wrote:Players were talking about the possibility of a gambit. The timing of his claim was in question. Those should be reasons to not blindly follow pappums to a hammer. At least to question pappums and get him to explain his thoughts more.

People mention the possiblity it was a gambit after I had voted (not that it really mattered IMO) and in fact...two who mentioned the possibility of it being a gambit laid down voided votes in the same post. His claim timing was rightfully questioned but that does not take away the fact he had made a claim and there was no getting out of it...either he would be found to be telling the truth (good for town) or he would be caught in a lie and lynched (good for town). I was not following him blindly (as I assume the other pappums voters would echo in their cases)...he was making a claim that could be proven with 100% certainty. I'll pursue 100% certainty in this game any day.

Jahudo wrote:You say there's no point in trying to search for scumbuddies in that situation, but what is the harm in keeping the day open until everyone has at least reacted to the claims?
We can disagree but I have made my opinion on this fairly clear as shown by a few of my comments on it:
  • havingfitz wrote:Assuming he is telling the truth (which I believe he is) it is coming so early in the day that Voided's scum buddies will not do anything to link themselves to him. So we have essentially lost the ability to gather potentially good interations between scum partners. Best thing to do IMO is to just eliminate Voided and if by some chance pappums is not being truthful...lynch him. I would think everything else from this point on with respect to Voided is going to be WIFOM.
    havingfitz wrote:everything to do with your finding on voided from this point on is going to be WIFOM and do town no good. And the longer the day goes before we do lynch voided the more time town has to screw itself over....more so IMO than scum does.
    havingfitz wrote:The more town run's around with it's head cut off as to what is or isn't the best move with Voided and who is or isn't his potential scumbuddies...the more benefit there is to scum IMO. If anyone disagrees with this train of thought I would like to hear your reasons why. To start day 2 off at 2 scum and 9 town (assuming 3 scum and 10 town now) should be reward enough. In this situation (pappum's result) I see continued discussion as a negative.

Jahudo wrote:So have you never seen a gambit in one of these games?

I have seen gambits. I have not seen a gambit (iirc) where one player claimed a guilty result on another player. Why? That would be suicide if the claimant was not telling the truth. A few of my thoughts on pappums' claim before he confessed:
  • havingfitz wrote:until we have a voided flip I am inclined to believe your investigation.
    havingfitz wrote:why should we not believe pappum's claim? What would be his incentive to not tell the truth? I believe the different possibilities have already been covered well enough and there aren't any good ones I can see that involve pappum lying.
    havingfitz wrote:there is no non-suicidal reason for pappum to fakeclaim a result on you

@pappums
...in addition to my questions to you in my post prior to this one, here's another one - Have you ever gambitted in a game before and if so, did the gambit implicate someone else?

@all
...have any of you ever been in a game where a player fakeclaimed a result on another player? If so could you provide a link?

Jahudo wrote:But you did acknowledge that his early claim was poor play, and yet you were eager to stay on the voided wagon. How was it not enough to make you at least distrustful enough to unvote, wait for everyone to react to the claim, and ask for a role confirmation from pappums?
Why wouldn't I want to stay on the Voided wagon....as mentioned by more than a few (and reiterated again and again and again by me)...there was no good reason to not believe pappums claim because it either was or wasn't the truth. Either way we were on the road to finding scum. That's why I was secure enough in my vote to maintain it. Role confirmation would come with the flip.
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Post Post #287 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:28 am

Post by Rhinox »

Jerbs' doorbell was rung.
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Post Post #288 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:38 am

Post by havingfitz »

Jinxx wrote:Sorry, I don't have time to go through all of these new posts... fitz's walls are annoyingly huge. I might find time to post tonight though.
equally, your contribution of posts/content is annoyingly small.

Idiotking wrote:So havingfitz believed pappums' claim without adequately exploring any other possibilities. A symptom of that was is wish to have a quicklynch of voided. Why should a claim made under suspicious circumstances lead to a quicklynch, particularly on D1 when there is hardly any information anyway? There really isn't a good reason.

What other possibilities needed exploring? Look above for my rationale on a quicklynch. In my experience a result on someone is cut and dry. Especially on D1. If we were in MYLO or LYLO I would not have been as quick to believe pappums. How was the claim made under suspicious circumstances? pappums has basically outted scum or revealed himself as scum. I will say the fact you were inclined to not believe pappums' claim regardless of whether it proved true or not seems like setting yourself up by conveniently not suspect pappum regardless of Void's possible lynched and flip outcome. So if Void were to have flipped town, you can avoid suspecting pappums for a revealed lie....and if Void were to have flipped scum...you set yourself to suspect pappums despite him having told the truth. Translation: if/when pappums is lynched, if he flips scum you have risen on the list of his possible scum buddies.
Idiotking wrote:Then, immediately following pappum's revelation that it was a gambit, fitz freaks out and attacks pappums,
claiming that he (who fitz claimed probably wasn't lying and as such was probably town) is lying scum.
This turnaround is so absolute and happened so quickly that I doubt it could ever be topped.
How do I freak out and attack pappums? He admitted to lying, I found his lie suspicious, he is my top suspect and therefore has my vote. regarding the bolded bit above...WTH are you talking about? Are you saying you suspect me because I am being inconsistent by changing my opinion that someone who was probably telling the truth is lying scum? Are you forgetting about the bit where pappums actually admitted to lying? <headshake>

My turnaround was "absolute" because pappums admitted to lying and, once again...what is quick about my turnaround? Is quickness a scum tell?

Is posting a crap case on someone a scumtell?

I think this post by IK would be a good one to reflect on in D2.

There are too many people not posting in this game.
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Post Post #289 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:12 am

Post by pappums rat »

all right folks, here's the dealy-o. to believe that i am scum, you would have to believe that scum would be willing to pull a suicidal move like that
and
at the same time repeatedly tell people not to mislynch
and
tell everyone your pm said you were sane (giving you no option to claim that your sanity was not assured after the supposed vm townflip). to believe havingfitz is scum, you would need to believe scum would want to policy lynch someone who he claims is a vi, thereby bringing about a shorter day without any real scumhunting (which is good for scum)
and
endorse quicklynching vm after a suspicious early day one claim without scumhunting (once again, good for scum)
and
endorse lynching someone for using a gambit under the pretense of lynch all liars without scumhunting (are we seeing a trend, here?).

the whole point of my gambit was to see the reactions people would have to there being a confirmed scum cornered, and then after the gambit was lifted people could scumhunt by looking for suspicious reactions. havingfitz has made every attempt to make this day shorter than it should be, which is antitown and scummy. the fact is that havingfitz has done no real scumhunting at all, and has been avoiding doing so all day. obvscum is obvious. moar votes plz.
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Post Post #290 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:14 am

Post by havingfitz »

The dealy-o... :roll:
pappums rat wrote:all right folks, here's the dealy-o. to believe that i am scum, you would have to believe that scum would be willing to pull a suicidal move like that
and
at the same time repeatedly tell people not to mislynch
and
tell everyone your pm said you were sane (giving you no option to claim that your sanity was not assured after the supposed vm townflip).
WIFOM.

Why would town lie to the rest of town, for a PR to claim and possibly draw out a real cop if one existed, implicate someone who could be town as scum, consider letting possible town be lynched based on gut, and then base the
only
scumhunting they (pappums) has attempted on that lie?
pappums rat wrote:to believe havingfitz is scum, you would need to believe scum would want to policy lynch someone who he claims is a vi, thereby bringing about a shorter day without any real scumhunting (which is good for scum)
Misrep.
andrew's play has spoken for itself and I did not advocate a ql of him. Anyone who says I did is lying as well (as pappums).
pappums rat wrote:
and
endorse quicklynching vm after a suspicious early day one claim without scumhunting (once again, good for scum)
Your lie put a
temporary
stop to my scumhunting (one of the reasons I object to your lie) and in case no one has noticed...I have stated my case for ql'ing Voided.
pappums rat wrote:
and
endorse lynching someone for using a gambit under the pretense of lynch all liars without scumhunting (are we seeing a trend, here?).
There are no pretenses...you lied. You deceived town to the brink of lynching someone whose alignment you had no idea of. LAL is not the only reason I support your lynch (other reasons below).
pappums rat wrote:the whole point of my gambit was to see the reactions people would have to there being
a confirmed scum
cornered, and then after the gambit was lifted people could scumhunt by looking for suspicious reactions.

Quit calling your lie a gambit. It was a lie. The result of your lie was that it led more than a few townies (myself obviously included) to believe we had, in your own words....
a confirmed scum.

pappums rat wrote:havingfitz has made every attempt to make this day shorter than it should be, which is antitown and scummy.
Misrep.
What is "every attempt?" I supported a quick end of the day when the prevailing info supported Voided as scum. I did not advocate a quick end to the day before OR after your lie.
pappums rat wrote:the fact is that havingfitz has done no real scumhunting at all, and has been avoiding doing so all day.
Misrep.
I have made a case on you. I have presented suspicions towards neil and IK and to a much lesser degree mikemike. Who have you provided supicions against? Who have you scumhunted? The sum product of your effort so far is a lie and a push towards a mislynch.

Why is pappums the best choice for a lynch?
- The
only indisputable fact we have in this game
is that pappums lied and deceived town. (scummy)
- Repeatedly ignoring accusations and question towards him. (scummy)
- Misrepping/overexagerrating to pad a weak case. (scummy)
- Ad-hom attacks in lieu of rational debate. (scummy)
- AtE with "moar votes plz." Maybe if he had said "pretty plz" he would be moar convincing? :roll:
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Post Post #291 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:32 am

Post by neil1113 »

pappums rat wrote:all right folks, here's the dealy-o. to believe that i am scum, you would have to believe that scum would be willing to pull a suicidal move like that
and
at the same time repeatedly tell people not to mislynch
and
tell everyone your pm said you were sane (giving you no option to claim that your sanity was not assured after the supposed vm townflip).
Don't get drunk on your WIFOM here. See, here's my problem Pappums. As Scum, you could easily have planned this, to use that very excuse. Then, when it comes to play, you say the excuse, show how "completely outrageous" it would be for scum to do such a thing, and basically get a confirmed townie ride the rest of the game. One thing your plan didn't realize, is that I'm here. I've been scum more then I've been town, and I know EXACTLY how that mind set is, because I've done some similar things with EXACTLY the same motivation. Yes, you can say what you said and claim it to be outrageous but the fact of the matter is, you've done it, for the most part it was anti-town, and your a hypocrite. Allow me to explain why.
pappums rat wrote:to believe havingfitz is scum, you would need to believe scum would want to policy lynch someone who he claims is a vi, thereby
bringing about a shorter day without any real scumhunting (which is good for scum)
and
endorse quicklynching vm
after a suspicious early day one claim without scumhunting (once again, good for scum)
and
endorse lynching someone
for using a gambit under the pretense of lynch all liars without scumhunting (are we seeing a trend, here?).
Not only are you blatantly twisting this case to overly make Fitz look like scum, but you're completely trying to pull the wool over our eyes. This is anti-town. Your three main points, is that Fitz is "trying to end the day early with a possible quick lynch." The hypocritical part, is did you, or did you not almost get VM lynched with your "Pro-Town Gambit?" The correct answer is, yes. You were but a few posts away. The reason he's not lynched? You got LUCKY nobody else voted while you were away. So in reality, while Fitz may or may not have been wanting the day to end early, the fact is, he's only one person. You on the other hand, deceived us about your ability (not that you don't have the ability, but that you used it at that time), and VM was within inches of getting lynched because of it. That's a BIG difference. Now let me break the above post down for one second.
pappums rat wrote:to believe havingfitz is scum, you would need to believe scum would want to policy lynch someone who he claims is a vi, thereby bringing about a shorter day without any real scumhunting
Except for one small fact you seemed to conveniently overlooked. He was clearly in context, referring to if the day came down to a quick lynch, he'd like to propose someone that is a VI in order that though we may not know much, at least we'd get a future potential disaster out before that goes down. And who knows? He may flip scum.
pappums rat wrote:endorse quicklynching vm after a suspicious early day one claim without scumhunting (once again, good for scum)
You DO realize you just accused him for believing you basically? It's not suspicious he believed you, it's suspicious that you'd be so deceitful friend. And what do you mean a suspicious early day one claim? Not many thought it was suspicious except maybe myself, and a FEW select others.
pappums rat wrote:endorse lynching someone for using a gambit under the pretense of lynch all liars without scumhunting (are we seeing a trend, here?).
You keep saying he's not scum hunting. Have you read his posts? I'd strongly disagree. Anyone who reads his posts, will also strongly disagree. Though yes, he has his annoying moments, and his long posts can get tiring to read, you couldn't even BEGIN to argue the fact that he is indeed scum hunting.
pappums rat wrote:the whole point of my gambit was to see the reactions people would have to there being a confirmed scum cornered, and then after the gambit was lifted people could scumhunt by looking for suspicious reactions. havingfitz has made every attempt to make this day shorter than it should be, which is antitown and scummy. the fact is that havingfitz has done no real scumhunting at all, and has been avoiding doing so all day.
obvscum is obvious.
moar votes plz.
Again, you've completely misrepresented him, deceitfully made a case against him that for the most part is false, and now are calling for a lynch of your own? Hypocrite! You're right about one thing though...

Obvious scum is indeed obvious, which is why my vote is on you. Your falty, weak, and deceitful case against Fitz now confirms my suspicions on you.
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Post Post #292 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:40 am

Post by neil1113 »

Wow... it didn't even give me the option to pre-edit before I posted to see Fitz's post. I feel stupid now. :/
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Hats off to Neil for some incredible town play.

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When I read up, I was just amazed by neil. Awesome reads.
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Post Post #293 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:20 am

Post by Idiotking »

fitz wrote:
Idiotking wrote:So havingfitz believed pappums' claim without adequately exploring any other possibilities. A symptom of that was is wish to have a quicklynch of voided. Why should a claim made under suspicious circumstances lead to a quicklynch, particularly on D1 when there is hardly any information anyway? There really isn't a good reason.


What other possibilities needed exploring? Look above for my rationale on a quicklynch. In my experience a result on someone is cut and dry. Especially on D1. If we were in MYLO or LYLO I would not have been as quick to believe pappums. How was the claim made under suspicious circumstances? pappums has basically outted scum or revealed himself as scum.
All possibilities need exploring all the time. Blindly following someone's claim like this (in so doing assuming that one of them HAS to be scum) is poor play, because it means you aren't thinking for yourself. If there are really NO OTHER POSSIBILITIES, then sure, a lynch is a fair conclusion to reach. This was not the case, however.

Pappum's claim was suspicious for reasons I've already stated about three times: it was D1, pappums claimed sane 1-shot day cop, and would have absolutely wasted his power. The fact that he could have (and claimed to) hit scum was irrelevant, because the very act of doing it would be dumb. As such, pappums was either being incredibly stupid or he had something else under his sleeve. Believing his claim and following him was just about the last thing you should have done.

And as a rule, quicklynches are bad for the town. Quicklynches on D1 are no exception.
I will say the fact you were inclined to not believe pappums' claim regardless of whether it proved true or not seems like setting yourself up by conveniently not suspect pappum regardless of Void's possible lynched and flip outcome. So if Void were to have flipped town, you can avoid suspecting pappums for a revealed lie....and if Void were to have flipped scum...you set yourself to suspect pappums despite him having told the truth. Translation: if/when pappums is lynched, if he flips scum you have risen on the list of his possible scum buddies.
That's because for him to be telling the truth, he would have to be completely incompetent. There is just no good reason for wasting a power like that. So I looked at other possibilities, all of which would have been him lying. Apparently, I was right.
Idiotking wrote:Then, immediately following pappum's revelation that it was a gambit, fitz freaks out and attacks pappums,
claiming that he (who fitz claimed probably wasn't lying and as such was probably town) is lying scum.
This turnaround is so absolute and happened so quickly that I doubt it could ever be topped.
How do I freak out and attack pappums? He admitted to lying, I found his lie suspicious, he is my top suspect and therefore has my vote. regarding the bolded bit above...WTH are you talking about? Are you saying you suspect me because I am being inconsistent by changing my opinion that someone who was probably telling the truth is lying scum? Are you forgetting about the bit where pappums actually admitted to lying? <headshake>
Well, you call him a lying ass, for one. You devolve into childish antics when confronted by the revelation that it was a gambit. Strange that you were happy enough to go with the flow and lynch voided, but when that changes, you lash out against pappums for lying. Tell me, what good reason would pappums have for revealing the gambit if he were scum? I know of one, but I want to see what conclusions you reach. As far as the bolded section is concerned, I'm talking about how you switch from being blindly sure that pappums is telling the truth to being blindly sure that he is scum. The important word here is "blindly". You seem determined to focus in on only one possibility, no matter the situation. Why? And yes, pappums admitted to lying. I am generally pro-LAL and anti-gambit. In this case, however, there is only one way that I can see pappums being scum, and just as many ways that he is town. Thus he is neutral, regardless of the lie. So your arguments that he lied mean nothing to me.


My turnaround was "absolute" because pappums admitted to lying and, once again...what is quick about my turnaround? Is quickness a scum tell?
It's quick because you switched completely in one post (your post following pappums' claim). And yes, quickness is a scumtell. Quicklynches are scumtells. Quickly changing one's opinion and lashing out because of it is a scumtell. It means you're not taking the time to think things through. Acting on impulse is scummy.
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Post Post #294 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:00 am

Post by Jahudo »

I'll take another look at neil's ISO when I get a chance. I haven't commented on Cecily's case yet so that is at the top of my to-do list.

I'm also wondering about Jerbs for the reasons Jinxx listed. I can't tell if Jerbs is suspicious of mikemike or what the point of that was. Jerbs is naive for believing in LAL.
havingfitz wrote:I have seen gambits. I have not seen a gambit (iirc) where one player claimed a guilty result on another player. Why? That would be suicide if the claimant was not telling the truth.
Okay, what kind of gambits have you seen then? Just fake votes? I've seen town fakeclaim others as scum, as town, and even one time fakeclaim a mason buddy. The non-mason buddy went along with it and they were both town.

The point of these types of gambits is that townies are always skeptical to trust other people because you never know who is lying, whereas scum know who is town and assume they will play honestly. You trusted pappums. You are scum.
@all
...have any of you ever been in a game where a player fakeclaimed a result on another player? If so could you provide a link?
Here are a few games that come to mind: Karma mafia, x-files mafia, dilemma mafia.
havingfitz wrote:there was no good reason to not believe pappums claim because it either was or wasn't the truth. Either way we were on the road to finding scum. That's why I was secure enough in my vote to maintain it. Role confirmation would come with the flip.
That is essentially my point. It is scummy to argue that a lynch was the best scenario for everybody when pappums had not confirmed his role. A lynch would put scum in a great position to get two mislynces off with little scumhunting or connections, if pappums and voided are both town.
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Post Post #295 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:55 am

Post by Jerbs »

I started out suspicious of mike, then I realized that he wasn't that bad. I didn't feel like deleting my post
"Those that hammer others are called scum. But I think those who lurk and refrain from voting are worse than scum. If I'm going to be called scum either way, I'd rather hammer! And if that's not being a proper Mafia player, then I'll destroy that idea!"
V/LA on most weekends
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Post Post #296 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:34 am

Post by Rhinox »

mikemike778's doorbell was rung.
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Post Post #297 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:54 am

Post by mikemike778 »

All possibilities need exploring all the time. Blindly following someone's claim like this (in so doing assuming that one of them HAS to be scum) is poor play, because it means you aren't thinking for yourself. If there are really NO OTHER POSSIBILITIES, then sure, a lynch is a fair conclusion to reach. This was not the case, however.

Pappum's claim was suspicious for reasons I've already stated about three times: it was D1, pappums claimed sane 1-shot day cop, and would have absolutely wasted his power. The fact that he could have (and claimed to) hit scum was irrelevant, because the very act of doing it would be dumb. As such, pappums was either being incredibly stupid or he had something else under his sleeve. Believing his claim and following him was just about the last thing you should have done.

And as a rule, quicklynches are bad for the town. Quicklynches on D1 are no exception.
I agree entirely ... the big thing for me was the plea to not quick-lynch. Fitz did 2 things pretty quickly

1. Believed and trusted Rat
2. Rejected Rat's advice.

We had plenty of time left in the day so there was absolutely no need to quick-lynch and no reason to do it, yet Fitz thought we should purely because he was following someone who specifically told him not to do it. There's a contradiction here.

As for Rat, yeah I get the WIFOM thing I really do ... but I stand by the investigation comment, just because they are not saying it, it doesn't mean its not true - there's not a person here I expect who doesn't think that:

a) The chance of some kind of investigation type power being used on Rat increased the second he put his gambit out there
b) Rat knew this

Its common sense. OK, now you could say its not optimal town play either drawing attention on yourself either but to me it seems to me to be even less optimal-scum play. Looking at motivations - as scum I just don't see it as worth the gamble, as town you can say the means justify the end if you catch a scum - maybe voided was scum and virtually confessed. Town players are more expendable to their side than scum players.
Fitz

Why would town lie to the rest of town, for a PR to claim and possibly draw out a real cop if one existed, implicate someone who could be town as scum, consider letting possible town be lynched based on gut, and then base the only scumhunting they (pappums) has attempted on that lie?
There's 2 reasons I see, first to reaction-hunt and if you do turn out to be scum and rat town then in my book that says the gambit worked on that basis. Secondly, as discussed above - if Voided was/is scum its perfectly possible, he could pretty much give himself up under the pressure of a 'guilty'.

I don't see any reason it would draw out a cop - its a closed set-up, any cop would know that its perfectly possible to have another 1 day cop.
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Post Post #298 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:28 am

Post by Cecily »

Hey all, I'd like to get this right quick and I apologize that I don't have much time, but reading through what I have I'm very suspicious of fitz. I feel no need to reiterate what everyone else has said, but I agree with idiotkings posts 281-283, as well as with Pappums reasons for why fitz seems scummy. And I'm pretty much opposed to the idea that pappums is scum at this point given his posts defending himself. Claiming that he's planned all of this stuff out so perfectly and known exactly what people were going to accuse him of is movie stuff. Normal, intelligent people can rarely think that far in advance and I don't see that as an option in this game. There are simply too many obstacles and no one would be able to predict them all and react as pappums has been. I'm retracting my name calling argument because it seems to have stopped and my focus is much more on fitz. Once again sorry for not really having time to read through and quote stuff. One again if anyone really wants me to I'll go back and quote stuff and elaborate, but for now I can't.

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Post Post #299 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:42 pm

Post by Rhinox »

bump for VC

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