Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[bgg1996]

Honestly, I think that if Yura-chi was mafia, her first post would be along the lines of: "OK, so now i hav to lie to u, right? I shodnt tell u I is mafai?"

[yura-chi]

Honestly, I think that if Yura-chi was mafia, her first post would be along the lines of: "OK, so now i hav to lie to u, right? I shodnt tell u I is mafai?"

i may suck at this game but i've heard and read on how to play this a bit...so i wouldn't post that....

for fos... i really cant come up with anything smart to say...and as some of u say i've been saying useless stuff so i'm going to keep my dumb reasons to my self.... but this doesn't mean i dun have any sus i just need to find a way a better way to explain myself therefore i dont have any reasons yet on that person/s.....

does this make sense btw? :S

[yura-chi]

i'll post again during nite time

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Another small problem I have is that you are, apparently, fos-ing maxous...for thinking you're town...And you're fos-ing Sub for a reason that, on the surface looks nice, but in practice is stretching at best. Currently thinking an Andrew/Yura team, or possibly one of the two is SK.

Given their dialogue,

I'm thinking that Reg and CKD are likely both town,

but I haven't had more then one or two games with an SK before(And one of the setups was REALLY weird) so I'm not exactly sure how they read.

Any reason you changed your mind about CKD?

The bit in italics, before the bit you bolded.

soz for triple post, but i thought the most susopicious post was surprises's deflecting to me by saying i lurk

Stop. Saying. This. It's stupid, and meaningless. You can't just say "he's deflecting" without giving some sort of reason or justification. No, I meant that in your own post, your actual REASONING GIVEN was that he found you town, and it made you suspicious. You're, once again, stawmanning and answering a different question. It might actually be exadurating for denial(not sure the name for this fallacy) but none the less. Your reasoning, as I quoted in the post you replied to, was that you yourself said your reasoning was that he found you town. And yes, I did say "thank you for content, but here's why your content is wrong." It's not 'like' I said it. I thought the things you said were wrong, and I said so, but I'm not going to keep on you for lurking now that you've stopped.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Proper answer to Max: Their exchange doesn't read like a scum trying to defend himself from town. Or at the very least, they both feel like they're scum-hunting. I can't say anything about SK(in theory they should be scum-hunting during the day too, but again, no experience playing with one to speak of)

[subgenius]

I'm thinking myself in circles on Yura. I have no idea. I'm starting to rethink my fos of her, though. This fos retraction is very tentative and subject to change.

[vollkan]

@volkan post 383.

What I learned from your post 383:
- you were at some tournament
- you think bgg is 'opportunistic'
- you think SC OMGUSd (?)
- you don't think CKD is lurking
- you Subg is coaching yura

None of that helps, at all, in actually telling us your positions on the people you do mention, let alone on everybody as a whole.

Try again!

p.s. volkan,, respond to the definition of lurk pls

@volkan, lurking doesnt mean not reading, it means not posting on purpose. ffs.

Ever heard of active lurking?

Lurking is far more commonly a product of people not reading and not posting sufficient levels of content, then it is about "not posting"

(and it also definitely does not mean not posting

on purpose

. Most lurking is actually accidental - which is why lurking isn't scummy)

[bgg1996]

Another small problem I have is that

you are, apparently, fos-ing maxous

...for thinking you're town...And you're fos-ing Sub for a reason that, on the surface looks nice, but in practice is stretching at best. Currently thinking an Andrew/Yura team, or possibly one of the two is SK. Given their dialogue, I'm thinking that Reg and CKD are likely both town, but I haven't had more then one or two games with an SK before(And one of the setups was REALLY weird) so I'm not exactly sure how they read.

hmm? are you saying if everyone calls me town then i cant fos or vote ANYONE since they all think im to win? that seems like an epic way to say 'i like it that your contributing now' then 'but ur contribution is bad, this is why etc'.

Well, your contribution

was

bad. You didn't give your opinions on any events that took place. The last day's lynch was the most important thing that happened so far, and the only thing that you had to say about it was where you were at the time. You don't even mention everyone, let alone your opinions on them. The people you do mention you give one, two sentences tops.



Anyway, I feel I'm not contributing as much as I should. Just thought I'd say it before vollkan gives me points for it.
Forgive me if I tunnel a bit to make up for it.

[subgenius]

Anyway, I feel I'm not contributing as much as I should. Just thought I'd say it before vollkan gives me points for it.
Forgive me if I tunnel a bit to make up for it.

I realize there's a certain amount of sarcasm here, but if there's any amount of truth, it's fairly scummy.

[bgg1996]

yway oday ouyay aysay atthay, ubgeniussay?

[subgenius]

Pig latin? Clever. The only reason I can imagine for this is that you're trying to get under my skin by continuing to avoid writing concise and direct content. I cannot fathom a pro-town reason for doing this.

To answer your question (even though I suspect that you are fully aware of the answer), It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy. Town hunts scum because it helps acheive their win condition, not because it makes them look town.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

My problem with what you said at the end there Sub is that I often worry about looking town when I play town. I think carefully about everything I say hoping it's not going to come off as being a scummy thing to do. Because town don't want to be thought of as scum any more then scum do.

[bgg1996]

It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy.

WRONG!

Here's a nice quote from the wiki to help explain why.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Lynching a Townie is a bad thing in general, but lynching a confirmed Townie is worse. To yourself, you ARE a confirmed Townie. While getting lynched is not the end of the world, the fact is that getting lynched is the one thing you can guarantee will hinder your faction. Do not acquiesce to your lynch unless it would be clearly anti-Town to do otherwise (although those situations are not common).
Along these same lines, the occasions where it's pro-Town to self-hammer as Town are extremely limited, and offing yourself out of spite toward the (evident) morons who are about to lynch you isn't one of those occasions. Even if the wagon on you is mostly Town, you still have to win with them in the end, so stay helpful.

To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN.

[bgg1996]

Errr, what I meant to say was, when I am a townie, anything to help myself not get lynched is PRO-TOWN.

[andrew94]

@ surprise, dude that wasnt to you, someone asked me which post was the most suspicious, and i said yours.
also, why do you repeatedly refer to my lurking,. i am posting exactly the same times as before (once to twice a day) and suddently im not lurking? lol/


@volkan, acitve lurking is reading and not posting. im reading AND posting

@everyone, more after homework

also, bgg feudin slipped

fos bgg

[vollkan]

@volkan, acitve lurking is reading and not posting. im reading AND posting

Wiki says no:

A subset of lurking is the so-called "active lurking", where a player posts in the thread but without making any contribution to the progress of the game. Their posts may be minimal in length, off-topic, or merely parroting what other players have already said.

That definition matches your play exactly. You are posting, but not making any contribution.

QED

It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy.

WRONG!

Here's a nice quote from the wiki to help explain why.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Lynching a Townie is a bad thing in general, but lynching a confirmed Townie is worse. To yourself, you ARE a confirmed Townie. While getting lynched is not the end of the world, the fact is that getting lynched is the one thing you can guarantee will hinder your faction. Do not acquiesce to your lynch unless it would be clearly anti-Town to do otherwise (although those situations are not common).
Along these same lines, the occasions where it's pro-Town to self-hammer as Town are extremely limited, and offing yourself out of spite toward the (evident) morons who are about to lynch you isn't one of those occasions. Even if the wagon on you is mostly Town, you still have to win with them in the end, so stay helpful.

To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN.

Errr, what I meant to say was, when I am a townie, anything to help myself not get lynched is PRO-TOWN.

Aside from the possible slip here, the argument you are making is just BS.

It's obviously true that, as town, you should do everything you can to stop yourself getting lynched.

HOWEVER

, town also has other objectives which necessarily modify the way that they should go about "not getting lynched". Lumping suspicion onto another player by tunneling, for the purpose of saving your own ass is technically "pro-town" if you are confirmed town. However, you are completely ignoring the fact that there are other, much more pro-town, ways that you can avoid getting yourself lynched - ie. by honestly explaining your behaviour or actually making decent, non-tunneling attacks.

This is why your "I might tunnel people" suggestion is scummy. Whilst you can argue that it's technically pro-town, it nonetheless involves you making a clear choice to take a far less-than-optimal approach (ie. by knowingly playing badly). Whatever you can claim about subjective knowledge of your own alignment, for the rest of us it's a matter of trying to work out your alignment from your objectively evidenced motivations. If you are choosing to play in a self-interested manner, rather than a manner which objectively helps the town (ie. which can be considered pro-town even if we don't assume a priori that you are pro-town) then that can constitute a scumtell

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

@ surprise, dude that wasnt to you, someone asked me which post was the most suspicious, and i said yours.
also, why do you repeatedly refer to my lurking,. i am posting exactly the same times as before (once to twice a day) and suddently im not lurking? lol/


@volkan, acitve lurking is reading and not posting. im reading AND posting

@everyone, more after homework

also, bgg feudin slipped

fos bgg

You aren't posting any more...but you're SAYING more. You're actually SAYING things when you post now. At times they're dumb things, but lurking is a lack of CONTENT not lack of posts. And yes, stupid fits, because this has been said, like, 50 times already.

[subgenius]

@bgg1996
Erm, that quote is talking about not giving up and taking a lynch without defending yourself, which is not the situation you are in at all.

Town players do not scum hunt because it makes them look like a good guy. Town players scum hunt because that is how a town player wins. Scum players scum hunt because it makes them look like town.

To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN.

Absolutely not true. For example, false claiming a power role might prevent you from getting lynched, but it is not pro-town, because it can result in outing a real power role or taking doctor protections from real power roles. That is not pro-town at all. An individual townie doesn't win by surviving at all costs. He wins by finding scum and getting them lynched.

My problem with what you said at the end there Sub is that I often worry about looking town when I play town. I think carefully about everything I say hoping it's not going to come off as being a scummy thing to do. Because town don't want to be thought of as scum any more then scum do.

You could probably accomplish the same thing by worrying about whether or not what you're saying is logical and helpful. Town absolutely has an incentive to not appear scummy, but they do this by authentically doing things a townie should be doing, not by going out of their way to do things that will hopefully make other people think he's on the town's side. "I will make this case so that people don't suspect me of being scum," is absolutely not a townie thought process. The townie thought process is "I will make this case, because I think this person might be scum."

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

True enough, but when I make a case, I think carefully on how I'm doing it, to try and make sure it looks like a case a town would make, and not anything else. I suppose it comes from a lack of experience, but nearly every time I post I look over it several times and try to make sure I don't look like scum, no matter what role I play.

[bgg1996]

It's obviously true that, as town, you should do everything you can to stop yourself getting lynched.

HOWEVER

, town also has other objectives which necessarily modify the way that they should go about "not getting lynched". Lumping suspicion onto another player by tunneling, for the purpose of saving your own ass is technically "pro-town" if you are confirmed town. However, you are completely ignoring the fact that there are other, much more pro-town, ways that you can avoid getting yourself lynched - ie. by honestly explaining your behaviour or actually making decent, non-tunneling attacks.

This is why your "I might tunnel people" suggestion is scummy. Whilst you can argue that it's technically pro-town, it nonetheless involves you making a clear choice to take a far less-than-optimal approach (ie. by knowingly playing badly). Whatever you can claim about subjective knowledge of your own alignment, for the rest of us it's a matter of trying to work out your alignment from your objectively evidenced motivations. If you are choosing to play in a self-interested manner, rather than a manner which objectively helps the town (ie. which can be considered pro-town even if we don't assume a priori that you are pro-town) then that can constitute a scumtell

Have I tunneled already? I didn't think I even made an accusation yet.
The tunneling itself may be bad play, but I am only warning you that it is a possible side effect. Besides, if one of you earlier posts is any judge, your definition of "tunneling" is a bit different than mine.

Anyway, you have yet to tell me

why

my argument is BS.
My argument is specifically made against this sentence
"It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy."
"It's scummy because scum hunting or

doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy.

"
"

Defending yourself is scummy

."

Somebody's argument is BS, but it certaintly isn't mine.






Made as post #417

[bgg1996]

To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN.

Absolutely not true. For example, false claiming a power role might prevent you from getting lynched, but it is not pro-town, because it can result in outing a real power role or taking doctor protections from real power roles. That is not pro-town at all. An individual townie doesn't win by surviving at all costs. He wins by finding scum and getting them lynched.

Yes, but the bad part of false-claiming is that it kills power roles, protecting yourself isn't the scummy part.
Going after scum doesn't really have a bad part, and it comes with the added bonus of not getting killed.

[Regfan]

Yes, but the bad part of false-claiming is that it kills power roles, protecting yourself isn't the scummy part.
Going after scum doesn't really have a bad part, and it comes with the added bonus of not getting killed.

No one is arguing that defending yourself from a lynch is incorrect and a scum-tell, but defending yourself while blindly ignoring the ultimate aim of scum-hunting and catching mafia is indeed a scum-tell. From what I've observed of your recent few posts, none have been in the aim of attaining reads on other players in the game, instead you're just arguing semantics.

[bgg1996]

I don't see you finding any scum.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

For fuck sake Bgg, stop proving me wrong so hard >.>

[Regfan]

Are you attempting to draw comparisons between yours and my play to attempt to paint your actions as townier, if so that's futile and irrelevant. My actions hold no relevance and don't have any indication of your allignment. I've already stated my thoughts on who mafia are and am waiting for CKD to respond. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the interaction and bickering that's gone on between me and CKD.