Newbie 1081: Showdown in Newbtown (Game Over, Mafia win)

[alnkpa]

Well hello there,

I'd like to shortly introduce myself:
My name is alnkpa, but if that name is too difficult for you, you may call aln or alki aswell. As most of us, I am a newbie to MafiaScum. Though I am not really oblivious about the game (I just lost it btw). I already played some games on EM and on #mafia@globalgamers. I am in GMT+1, just so you know.
Although I don't really get the concept of RVS or why it is so important, I do:
VOTE: Zdenek, just because he took away my first option for RVS.
I wish everyone good luck and much fun.

[alnkpa]

1. What's your Mafia experience?
2. What's your favorite band?
3. What role/alignment do you prefer?
4. Do you find it harder finding scum, or convincing other people that you've found scum (the latter assuming you correctly identified someone as scum)?

1. As I stated before, I was playing on EM for about a year with some pauses in the middle. And I started playing on #mafia@globalgamers about a month ago. So I don't think I am really new to this game but I am to this site.
2. Oh that's kind of a hard question, as I am not such a big fan of music. Though I like german rock/pop like "Sportfreunde Stiller" and "Wir sind Helden". You probably never heard of those, so I'm naming "Lenka" too, although she's just a singer-songwriter and not a band.
3. I prefer scum, to be honest. I like tricking people, setting them traps and generally seeing them run into those. So be cautious . Though it is possible, that I just like that more because my scum-finding skills are not the best. Which leads me to question 4:
4. I am good at stating facts and showing people how they come together to form a big solution but I am sometimes to oblivious to see some scumtells.

One question to the SEs/IC:
How do you vote in RVS? Rather one vote to stick to it or switching ones?

[alnkpa]

Me? In what way am I backing off? I really don't see it. Was just asking about RVS, as it seems to be a common factor in a game.

[alnkpa]

I have the feeling, that Fatso's not really understanding the reasoning behind the accusations on him so let me rephrase and concentrate, mostly for me to have a resumé but for everyone to use:
Mainly, there are two things that may be scumtell-ish:
At first, Fatso was insisting on not to RVS. After Bulvious was mostly RVS-ing him he backed off quite hard reacting a little oversensitive. That could be seen as a scumtell. One could argue that Fatso was trying not to attract attention which he would if he would have been possibly the only one not voting. So he tried to make up a RV fast.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be to centered on Fatso only.

I certainly agree that sitting back and coasting through the RVS / RQS is bad news, since less input means less information we have to go on,

Why didn't you vote then? Until the end of RVS you didn't say one word. As startransmission phrased it 'flying under the radar'.

lynchking did almost the same but then hopped on the wagon for Fatso without any further explanation at first. Could you please explain that because I personally think RVS was over at that time.

[alnkpa]

To answer Bulvious' question: I think if I'd need to hammer, I'd go with a lurker aswell. Lurking seems much more scummy to me than a nolynch. Lurking is quite antitown as it withholds possibly important information for us. The nolynch wouldn't be so bad as we are not in a mylo/lylo-situation and me virtually hammering would render that nolynch void.

[alnkpa]

While agreeing to your aversion against quick-lynching, where did he say that?

[alnkpa]

True, although I personally think that you over-interpret it a little bit. Maybe he meant that with info we allotted over the course of this day to the next we may be able to have a clearer understanding of what was going on today. (Hopefully my crazy thoughts weren't to confusing for you as I see that the preceding sentence is a little bit confusing)

[alnkpa]

Alnkpa, I think you misunderstood Bulvious' question. No lynch means voting for a no lynch. Of course I might have misunderstood your post.

I don't think so. The question was the following:

Sarah, obviously it's early in the day and making a choice based on three pages of info is difficult, but - if you had to place a hammering vote right now - where would it be? On a lurker? No lynch?
Everyone else is free to answer this, also.

And I think you mean the part of my answer in which I say that me hammering would render the vote for a no lynch void. I mean that if I hammered the vote for a no lynch wouldn't mean anything as this hypothetical situation would enable me to kill one of those two.

[alnkpa]

Well Fatso, until now I didn't have you on my personal scum list, but now as you being quite sensitive about some accusations made against you I do. Although you were rather talkative the whole game you now seem to exaggerate. So many consecutive posts seem rather scummy to me. Why did you need to have 3 posts in a row to answer some questions?
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fatso

Zdenek, could you please consider reasoning your votes as such seemingly random voting seems rather scummy to me.

[alnkpa]

For my accusation of Fatso:

Are you in a time warp or something?

I call something like that being sensitive though you may still correct me.

Let me look back at the post, I haven't seen it in a while, and maybe I'm remembering in wrong. I don't think so though.

This quote seems to me as if you were backing up to not attract attention. Two quite different emotions shortly one after another. I should clarify what I meant by "exaggerating": I talked about this backing up.
Maybe I wasn't giving examples, which is—and I don't want to conceal that—not good if you are voting someone. But I won't back up from my vote until I see someone who is attracting my scum-radar more than Fatso. Which is—and I am honest here—not sooo good.
Concerning the case of the triple post: Here you are right and I didn't think about it that we are not able to edit our posts. I personally just use the draft function so I can write a post and reread it. Especially for those big posts it's quite helpful.

Zdenek, could you please consider reasoning your votes as such seemingly random voting seems rather scummy to me.

(I didn't really look at this before, seeing as it wasn't addressing me personally).
Seriously, what are you talking about? Not making much sense at all here.

I always feel a little bit irritated if someone just flashes up a vote with only a minimal explanation.

[alnkpa]

Well I don't think we are allowed to, right? So we would need to ask a mod to do it.

[alnkpa]

What are people's opinions of lynching the scummiest lurker?

I think that it is a good move if we have any valid other reason to lynch the lurker and not another player who is more suspicious. I mean, if we somehow clearly or almost clearly know that somehow is scum it would be quite silly to lynch another one, right?

[alnkpa]

Concerning Fatso's question to me:
Yes indeed you are still number one on my personal 'may-be-scum-list' although someone else got my attention too. Nevertheless it is still too vague to post my suspicion, so I'll try to find some more indications about that someone. Eventually I either will or will not state who it is based on my opinion.
Further, I am now a little concerned by your last posts that hadn't much content. Your arguing with Bulvious seemed over-the-top to me, especially as you were disputing over some dates which seemed rather unimportant to me. Could you explain why you had to clarify your date of posts more than one site?

About the thing about me being actively lurking:
I don't really see me actively lurking that much. Maybe I even did it in the last few days a bit but I'm going to answer all the thing in one.

He has provided no original content.

Let me quote some things for you:

I certainly agree that sitting back and coasting through the RVS / RQS is bad news, since less input means less information we have to go on,

Why didn't you vote then? Until the end of RVS you didn't say one word. As startransmission phrased it 'flying under the radar'.

lynchking did almost the same but then hopped on the wagon for Fatso without any further explanation at first. Could you please explain that because I personally think RVS was over at that time.

And my post where I voted Fatso. Both of the time I posed questions in order to find scum. Both of the time I waited some time for answers as I am not that kind of person who bases his opinions about people on facts they hadn't the possibility to answer to and clarify it. The first time there did not come any response or even a slight reaction. Second, Fatso answered sufficiently detailed while Zdenek gave a one line answer that is still not thoroughly describing enough for me.
I know that I shouldn't feel personally attacked by people not answering my question and I normally don't. I felt like some people weren't taking me seriously. So I took a step back and tried to analyse in the background still waiting maybe someone would answer. I understand your case to some extend but I won't let myself be accused of having no original content whatsoever.

[alnkpa]

Additionally, my only response for Aln are two questions:
What original content do you believe you have contributed specifically?
Are you implying that Zdenek is the secondary person with your attention in the end of your post?

I take original content to be content that may be either a question or some kind of other contribution that nobody has brought up before. Apparently, I consider all my questions to be original.
Concerning the second question, I already stated that I won't say anything unless I have enough evidence.

[alnkpa]

Zdenek gave a one line answer that is still not thoroughly describing enough for me.

Succinctness is pro-town. People will read my one line reasons, and if they don't understand them, they can ask about them. Bulking up a post with unnecessary ramblings is useless at best and anti-town at worst.

Well as some stated that I am going along with it though I personally feel that someone who won't give out any motives just has none that would mark him pro-town.
I twice asked you to clarify the following:

Startransmission is scum for active lurking.

Twice I got no answer. Anything to say to that?

Oh and Fatso, could you please rephrase:

Oh, and alnkpa, do you have anything else to say in reference to my last post answering questions put forth in your last post in reference to me being scummy?

I am sorry, but I don't get the meaning.

[alnkpa]

I've always thought that active lurking is a pretty good reason to vote someone. What more do you want, an essay about why active lurking is scummy, a wall quoting startransmission's posts that show him not contributing? I can do both, but I fail to see the point. You can go look at his ISO and judge for yourself.

I fully agree with about active lurking being a scumtell. Nevertheless you could have outlined his lurking in one or two sentences.

[alnkpa]

Seeing this conversation almost came to a halt, I'd like to pose some questions in order to let it stay alive.
Fatso, do you really think that you can project from a real world game of mafia to this board? In which way?
H3llo, do you agree with Fatso that one of the three mentioned by him (which includes you) might be scum? Who? Why?
Zdenek, would you like to defense against Fatso's arguments? How?

[alnkpa]

alnkpa, do you still find me scummy (I know I've asked this before)? If so, why? Because there's really no reason voting for me if you don't have a case.

In the moment I don't have any new evidence against you. Though I don't have any new scumreads on anyone either (I confessed in my first post that I'm bad at scumreading) so I'll just let my vote linger on you considering there doesn't seem to be a wagon on you.

Welcome to the replacements chkflip and workdawg, I got a question for you: Do you already have things that catched your eye? Maybe even things that none of us noticed yet?

[alnkpa]

Although it might seem omgus-sy I'm gonna post this now considering I already had it as a draft and I just hadn't time anymore to complete it yesterday.

I myself think that Zdenek is quite sensitive now. He didn't wrote more than two lines of text most of the time as you can check all by yourself since it's quite obvious. And now he's so antsy to react with a big fat wall to some minor questions? That now aroused suspicion at me. First he is very concise and now he just won't stop talking?
As some of you already saw, I stated I have a suspect and it is indeed Zdenek. So I'm going to change my vote to him:
VOTE: Zdenek

A question apart from this to chkflip: How do those of my posts make me so town?

[alnkpa]

Oops, just saw that I put Zdenek at L-2. I'm concerned that none of the two scums are voting him right now and am rather save then sorry:
UNVOTE: Zdenek

[alnkpa]

Thx for your advice. Didn't even think so far
VOTE: Zdenek

[alnkpa]

Sry, I was thinking very short in that moment and do think he might be scum. I already made the vote again to repair the mistake.

[alnkpa]

And if anyone is opportunistic, it's him[, aln].

I'll let people accuse me of many things, but not of being opportunistic. For that thing I'd like to see a thorough explanation 'cause that is IMHO a very harsh incrimination.
Concerning your case about me being actively lurking: Did you missed my previous explanation?

[alnkpa]

Lol, no it isn't. Is it so bad?

[alnkpa]

Do you really think we should clutter up this thread with seemingly unimportant stuff?
And I'm from Germany. But that should be enough for the off-topic stuff I guess.

[alnkpa]

I only feel stronger about him being jumpy as he wasn't a great talker all the time and now seems so talkative. For me it's interesting.
I did look at your town-meta. But is it really a meta? It's just analysing my posts, isn't it? Meta is imho more looking at posts from other games which I don't have any yet apparently.
Fatso is a null-tell at the moment for me. Don't have a strong opinion on him anymore.

[alnkpa]

Zdeneks case

@chkflip: Well, I see what you are going for concerning Zdeneks meta. I wouldn't have such a strong opinion on him if he just stayed with his short answers. I'd be a little concerned about it but your meta would render it virtually void. But seeing how he is reacting now it gets me really thinking about it. Zdenek, what did you make changing your style of posts?

Those things against me

A legitimate introduction happens to be fluff. No one else felt the need to introduce themselves for a reason. Or if someone else did, it might have been the IC because it tends to be a good idea to establish oneself as an educator while being the IC. This introduction is useless other than establishing himself as new to the forum - which is obvious if he is a newb in a newb game.

Now you are just making a fool of yourself. Do you really mark an effort to be nice and to get a good ambiance as scum? I don't know what someone else would say about it but to me it seems ridiculous.
I suppose that all of you can make your own opinions so I'm suggesting that you read my ISO rather than trust Bulvious and his hyperbolical observations.
Btw, about me not scumhunting: What do you want me to do? I'm posing questions and waiting for an answer. I don't know what you consider scumhunting but I imho do it.

[alnkpa]

Concerning Fatso's question to me:
Yes indeed you are still number one on my personal 'may-be-scum-list' although someone else got my attention too.

I clearly said I'm looking at someone else too.

[alnkpa]

Sry for double post.
I did not intend to be ad hominem. I only meant that you couldn't be serious arguing about the scum-ness of my introduction.

[alnkpa]

Well, I'd like to quote those of my posts that were in my eyes scumhunting and hopefully we can work it out. I'd like to excuse already for the length of this post.
First, I agree that it took me a time to get in the game.
Here's my 4th post:

On the other hand, I wouldn't be to centered on Fatso only.

I certainly agree that sitting back and coasting through the RVS / RQS is bad news, since less input means less information we have to go on,

Why didn't you vote then? Until the end of RVS you didn't say one word. As startransmission phrased it 'flying under the radar'.

lynchking did almost the same but then hopped on the wagon for Fatso without any further explanation at first. Could you please explain that because I personally think RVS was over at that time.

I both asked and pressured BS and lynchking. Do you need further explanation?

While agreeing to your aversion against quick-lynching, where did he say that?

Here I was asking someone for clarification. But it was a try to pressure on him/her (sorry, read in ISO so I don't know whom) as they could've been plain lying as well.

True, although I personally think that you over-interpret it a little bit. Maybe he meant that with info we allotted over the course of this day to the next we may be able to have a clearer understanding of what was going on today. (Hopefully my crazy thoughts weren't to confusing for you as I see that the preceding sentence is a little bit confusing)

Not as scumhunting as a regular question but nevertheless in anticipation of a response.

Well Fatso, until now I didn't have you on my personal scum list, but now as you being quite sensitive about some accusations made against you I do. Although you were rather talkative the whole game you now seem to exaggerate. So many consecutive posts seem rather scummy to me. Why did you need to have 3 posts in a row to answer some questions?
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fatso

Zdenek, could you please consider reasoning your votes as such seemingly random voting seems rather scummy to me.

Pressuring Fatso as well as posing a question to Zdenek.

My 9th post, that I don't want to quote as this post is already far too long: I take this as a expansion of my post before.

Post 12: Still pressuring on Fatso as well as a explanation to your accusations.

Post 14: Pressuring on Zdenek with post 15 expanding it.

Post 16: Nothing except scumhunting.

Post 17: Posing questions to chkflip and workdawg.

Post 18: Pressuring Zdenek in lieu with the following posts (I already said sorry about them).

Post 24: Getting chkflip back on track.

Post 26: Still pressuring on Zdenek. Still no answer btw.

I skipped about 10 posts that were either introduction or had something to do with my scumhunting posts. Any questions?

[alnkpa]

EBWODP: So in my eyes it's way more than 8 posts with "merely scumhunting".

[alnkpa]

I am very sorry about it, but I will me V/LA the next days, I hope it doesn't matter for you too much. Don't mind asking questions etc. to me though as I will reread it all, I promise.

[alnkpa]

So chick is liable to put him at L-1 and this close to dead line a hammer will most likely happen. It's claim time I think.

It's L-2. I will catch up until 20:00 +2GMT so just wait for me. If you want I can explain my V/LA.

[alnkpa]

As I see that we got more than a day, I will make my points tomorrow.

[alnkpa]

Ok, sorry for my procrastination.
But I see not much has changed. I now have two very good reason to vote Zdenek. First and foremost, I still think he's scum. Still sensible, even ad hominem. I don't think I need to explain all of it, as either I or some other already did it and considering we don't have much time. Second, we don't have much time and there is no other wagon that seems possible for a lynch now.
That should explain enough now. Any questions?

[alnkpa]

One remark first: I was making this post before the day began, so don't be irritated if I don't go into posts that came in the new day. Furthermore I want to excuse myself for me being not active till the deadline, but it was early in the morning over here at about 7am. And I really didn't want to get up at 5am.

I'm sorry for the following wall, I'm just catching up. I marked the areas in which I was talking about one person for more than a quote for your convenience.

Bulvious

Maybe this will come off bad, but to me it seems like you're backing away from the game at a pretty crucial time when you're under pressure. To me this appears as though you're evading and at this point avoiding slips. You'll give no input over the next few days as you've done largely across the game. Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong - but this seems like a scum maneuver.

Not that it's scummy to V/LA, but it justs seems consistent with all of your other actions.

Yeah I know it and I am still sorry for it. But it was the first week of a new semester and i had to do many things at once and MS fell short. Concerning me giving no input: I don't think there's even the slightest chance for me to convince you that I'm giving input. As not many seemed to agree with you, I will ignore it a bit from now on until you have further evidence against me.

Case in point: Hunting in partners is stupid. Assuming I'm scum because I defended someone is dumb. Now, obviously, scum would have NO reason to defend THREE people who he could have pushed a lynch for instead. That doesn't make ANY sense. Scum only have one partner, Star. To me, if your case is still ONLY based on that, I don't see how there's any stock in it.

Well one of them could be your scumpartner. And buddying with one or two townies doesn't seem to special to me. You could have them on your side in a lylo-situation after all.

Re-reading all of his posts for the second time, and I can't find anything that stick out too scummy to me, except for his "i'm bad a scum hunting" and that's just a gut feeling, and there's a large chance it could be incredibly wrong, as I'm not experienced with scumhunting.

So you find it scummy that WD says he's bad at scumhunting though you aren't sure because as you say you are bad at scumhunting? You are contradicting yourself.

drmyshottyizsik

No pro-town person would approve of a Lynch all lurkers policy conditionally.

How would a pro-town person act then? No lynch-all-lurkers ever? Only lynch-all-lurkers?

Yet you didn't want to lynch people based off of activity or lack there of? O RLY?!?!?!
NO! LIES AND MORE LIES!
I have caught you in your own web, now please die.
Some one lynch this guy.

You are shouting at people but don't give much reasons. You seem rather reactive to me. And you just pressure others without you giving them reasons.

To recap what Zd says about me that's ACTUALLY true:
I've taken a wishy-washy stance on HIM (because I didn't want to think he was scum just because his play rubs me the wrong way.)
I haven't been scum hunting that much, except for him. (Though I have prodded at a few others)
I "bulked up" my case against him with things that aren't scum tells (but they DO help establish context for my reads)

Why did you do that? Why weren't you bringing hard facts rather than softly attacking him?

I can not really quote anything from st, but here I quite agree with Bulvious—which is rather exceptional. He didn't provide much content in the last days to the deadline.
Well h3llo seems to be the same. Not really providing anything. At least I had some sort of excuse.

Phew, some big wall. Did quite some catching up. Analysis of the current day coming soon.

[alnkpa]

@drmyshottyizsik:

I don't think your tunneling on WD isn't very helpful so early in the day. I personally think it is the opposite. You're not even anwering any questions. I don't like it that you don't help town in any way. For instance, open up or atleast start talking to us as well.

Also, let me just say this, and I'll be waiting for someone to accuse me doing this because of your long post against me. Though, to be fair, I've had this theory since before N1 began. I personally think you're scum. Why? This might sound like a flawed reason, but you survived N1. Let's face it, you're the strongest person in the game, would scum really profit from letting you slide? I don't think so.

You are going a way that is commonly referred to as WIFOM. You could just say that scum had that idea in mind when they didn't kill Bulvious just to let him look scummy … And so on. I don't think that is a good reason. Sorry.

Lynching the cop D1 is obviously about as bad as it gets. The hammer by Kard, is curious at best. I *think* he was just waiting until the last possible second to do it to make sure Zd had a chance to claim, or to make sure we got a lynch in instead of a no-lynch with 4 votes against one player. I think both of those are pretty town plays, but at the same time, it'd take a pretty dumb scum to jump on the bandwagon at the end and NOT wait as long as possible.

I think you can neither call that a scumtell nor a towntell. It was just the only option he had.

[alnkpa]

EBWODP: I think your tunneling isn't very helpful so early in the day.

[alnkpa]

But bad play could lead to misdirecting town. And that could be quite scummy. But I'm only interpreting.
Concerning chkflip: I’m not really sure whether that "slip" is a real slip. It could be a mistyping or even a not-knowing. Nevertheless it is interesting.

[alnkpa]

Yeah, guys, I'm seeing a slow decay of this thread. Nevertheless I'm really starting to suspect chkflip, always promising something but never posting something helpful in this day. So to raise some discussion:
VOTE: chkflip

[alnkpa]

@Mod: I already requested replacement one or two weeks ago. I don't wanna stall the game.

Sry guys but I'm ill and will need to go.

You sent that PM to me a few days ago (when I was swamped) =/
Working on it.