Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[havingfitz]

Votecount 2.5:

yura-chi – 2 (vollkan, Maxous)

bgg1996 - 2 (subgenius, yura-chi)

Surprise_Carcinogen - 1 (Andrew94)

Andrew94 - 2 (Surprise_Carcinogen, Regfan)

Not voting: (bgg1996, Truant, curiouskarmadog)

With 10 players left it’s 6 to lynch.

Day 2 will end no later than midnight EST on March 31st.

[subgenius]

Just finished briefly reading Andrews scum games, his playstyle in them is almost identical to that of this game. For anyone else interested in reading them, they are:

Did you read his town games too? I'm not a huge fan of meta cases in the first place, but I'm even less persuaded when someone only links to three games with no indication that he's compared the player's scum games and town games. How is his town play and scum play different and where do you see him displaying his scum tendencies in this game?

Again, I don't disagree with you - I just think we are talking at cross-purposes.

I don't think we're getting anywhere here. I understand what you're saying, but I still firmly disagree. This more or less confirms my earlier concerns about your scoring system. Again, I'm not saying this is scummy, but if it ever comes to a point where you need to convince me to change my vote you'd better have a case to give, because a composite score of unspecified subjective scum tells is not going to do it for me.

*sigh* Actually, against my better judgement, I'm going to look at this yura +5 scum points post and unravel it and explain why I think it's bad. We're probably going to waste another 4 posts on it each and I'm not sure it'll be useful, but I'm having trouble biting my tongue.

well i don't mean to bandwagon but i think sub is making sense bgg is getting into useless arguements (tho i don't really think i have any say in this, since everyone also thinks i'm useless and dumb) and i wanna see how he wud react if he face some heat

At the risk of this becoming a bgg-yurachi see-saw, Yura+5

Unvote, Vote: Yura

1)

Once again, Yura jumps on a bandwagon for crappy reasons.

2) Hypocrisy (Ironically, this is a perfect demonstration of what I was arguing earlier about tu quoque. Whilst Yura is completely correct about bgg's useless arguments, it is hypocritical and thus scummy for yura to vote bgg on that basis - even though

the reason why yura is voting bgg is actually valid

)
3)

Explicitly voting to add pressure

4) The fact that Yura has not been involved with any of the extensive prior debate on bgg, but suddenly decides to vote for bgg (

for weak, short reasons

) as soon as subg invites a wagon

Alright, first, the bolded portion contradicts the bold italicized portions.
1)Contradiction is pretty clear
3)If she expressed a valid reason to vote, I really don't see it being scummy to add that part of the reason for her vote is to ratchet up pressure on bgg, especially since I explicitly said that more pressure on bgg might be useful.
4)clear contradition with the bolded part. Reasons were short, but short valid reasons are better than long invalid ones. I can't really argue about the bandwagon charge. I don't find it scummy, because she did exactly as I asked, but if someone else thinks that bandwagonning is scummy in general, it's hard to say she didn't do that.

Now as for point (2). Besides what I've already said about not finding hypocrisy to be a scum tell, I don't think she was being hypocritical. If you read Yura's post, she accuses bgg of "making useless arguments," While she admits not to being "useless and dumb" but of being thought of as "useless and dumb". Making "useless arguments" and being thought of as "useless and dumb" are two different things, which invalidates the charge of hypocrisy. Both involve being useless, but one is a judgement by others while the other is a deliberate act of creating dumb arguments. Even if she actually admitted to being useless and dumb, that is still not the same thing as making dumb arguments.

I want to be clear here. I am not doing this because I want to defend Yura. I am doing this because I want to show that Vollkan is not an infallibly logical scum hunting robot as he would like to portray himself. I think this was a pretty poor post, and an extremely bad set of reasons for switching a vote from another serious scum suspect. If a different player switched votes off of a wagon just as it was gaining steam using this post as justification, I would not have a problem calling it quite scummy. With Vollkan, I'm not quite as sure, because I realize that he's dogmatically following a scoring system that allows this kind of flip flopping. I can't say whether it's the system that's to blame or Vollkan.

I'm dreading the theory discussion this will probably spawn, but as I said, I was having trouble continuing to bite my tongue on it.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

im not listening to a thing you are saying, and it seems to me you are discreting making me stop 'looking into this' by a hidden threat of 'weird' = 'if you talk more about it = i vote'

rofl

Can someone ELSE explain to him what's wrong with this whole mess of a post, then?

erm no because i think my case is good, and your threatening me with 'weird'.
it may be that you think i am scum, thus u are refuxing everything i am saying, but you are scum so..

See, what makes me certain he's scum is that he says "You're threatening me with weird" and I say "No, I'm telling you you're being suspicious" and then he says "you're threatening me with weird"

AND THEN, he says "maybe you think I'm scummy, but it doesn't matter cause you're actually scum." THAT IS NOT DEFENSE! THIS IS NOT A TOWN PLAY. Forget the meta and everything else, THIS is the worst, scummiest play I have seen so far this game.

Also, prep for him replying with either a repeat of his "threat" accusation, or another muttering about "deflecting"

[subgenius]

AND THEN, he says "maybe you think I'm scummy, but it doesn't matter cause you're actually scum." THAT IS NOT DEFENSE! THIS IS NOT A TOWN PLAY. Forget the meta and everything else, THIS is the worst, scummiest play I have seen so far this game.

I missed that. I agree that is a crappy defense and a poor town play. Looking back over this latest exchange between you and Andrew, I'll agree that Andrew comes out looking paranoid and (poorly) overly defensive.

Why is he so concerned about you putting a vote on him, when your vote is already there? Why is he so concerned about "weird" being a code word for suspicious, when you've been more than to call out suspicious actions so far? Andrew is looking quite overly sensitive to minor pressure.

[Truant]

Reading from my last post (so page 15)

@Suprise_Carcinogen: I never called it a town history, I called it a catchup/review post. What you posted early on is now catching my attention upon a reread. Not everything that scum does is scummy, and not everything that town does is townie. Analyzing every post is a waste of everybody's time, including my own.

SC's naming of scum pairings is just stupid at this point, when we don't have a scum flip. It's a nulltell, but fuck it's stupid.

@Vollkan: NK's ARE hard evidence. They are the people who died. Nobody else did. There's always a reason for it and *rarely* it's for WIFOM purposes. Even if the scumteam manages to evade all suspicion, they still have the motivation to want to get rid of people that are likely to get on their trail, unable to be swayed, etc, etc, etc. Being a threat to the scumteam by attacking one of them typically gets your name on their short list pretty quickly so it's likely that scum NK'd to save their own skin. When there's more motivation to do something over another, it can be analyzed and shouldn't be relegated to just WIFOM and ignored.

@subgenius: analyzing the SK kill first is for the two reasons that I stated; it's generally easier to analyze one person rather than a group, and it's faster when you don't have the time. I had to pick one and the easier one is going to be the one I choose first.

(quote from vollkan)

Have I tunneled already? I didn't think I even made an accusation yet.

(blah blah blah)

O.o Yay for basically admitting that you're scum.

Vote: bgg1996

@SC (post 430): Why are you trying to prove that bgg is newb-town? How does him breaking his own records affect your read on him?

Yay for SC's fencesitting on bgg (post 466).

Reached page 20; hopefully finish this tomorrow.

[bgg1996]

Hold on a sec, how does that quote make me scummy?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

I'm not fence-sitting, truant, and the fact that you continually misrepresent people is unnerving. Bgg is not scum. I'm not on any sort of fence. I am clearly and openly on the 'Bgg is town' side of the fence

And you called it a catchup/review post, but didn't mention anybody but me. I'm not asking you to, or not to, read every single thing said. But, don't say "catchup post" and then only read me. I wasn't the only one walking while you were gone.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

walking should be talking in my last sentence.

[andrew94]

@regfan, i am wondering why you are picking games that are far apart (im sure i have some scum games in betwen those). are you selectively picking?

also, someone has also said this in {redacted} game. it didnt go well.

@subgenius, im pretty sure surprise is scum and that post was so he/i wont go muttering about each other.also what are you trying to say when you said i am concerned about surprise putting a vote on me, when the vote is already on me.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

andrew: accusing people of deflecting while doing so himself for well onto 200 posts.

[andrew94]

i dont understand

[subgenius]

im not listening to a thing you are saying, and it seems to me you are discreting making me stop 'looking into this' by a hidden threat of

'weird' = 'if you talk more about it = i vote'

I could be misinterpreting this sentence, but the bold section seems to say that you think that by calling your fixation on CKD's post style "weird" he was threatening to vote you. He already had his vote on you, though. Basically, the passage seems hyper-defensive.

I'll wait until Truant finishes catching up to comment on his latest post.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Also, you're discrediting my most recent point against you with "Eh, doesn't matter, he's scum". And no, I'm not trying to keep us muttering about each other. I'm trying to point out that you are, so far, the scummiest player in this game, and that we should have probably killed you by now. You have, time and time again, either refused outright to explain yourself, or given crappy, often strawman or ad hominem retorts to cases against you. You cling to one stupid argument or the other until you can't anymore, and then you resort to the nonsensical. You are so extraordinarily defensive, you actually take a swing at me(which is your current favorite defense) against things that aren't even attacks.

[vollkan]

[quote="Sub"[/quote]

well i don't mean to bandwagon but i think sub is making sense bgg is getting into useless arguements (tho i don't really think i have any say in this, since everyone also thinks i'm useless and dumb) and i wanna see how he wud react if he face some heat

At the risk of this becoming a bgg-yurachi see-saw, Yura+5

Unvote, Vote: Yura

1)

Once again, Yura jumps on a bandwagon for crappy reasons.

2) Hypocrisy (Ironically, this is a perfect demonstration of what I was arguing earlier about tu quoque. Whilst Yura is completely correct about bgg's useless arguments, it is hypocritical and thus scummy for yura to vote bgg on that basis - even though

the reason why yura is voting bgg is actually valid

)
3)

Explicitly voting to add pressure

4) The fact that Yura has not been involved with any of the extensive prior debate on bgg, but suddenly decides to vote for bgg (

for weak, short reasons

) as soon as subg invites a wagon

Alright, first, the bolded portion contradicts the bold italicized portions.
1)Contradiction is pretty clear
3)If she expressed a valid reason to vote, I really don't see it being scummy to add that part of the reason for her vote is to ratchet up pressure on bgg, especially since I explicitly said that more pressure on bgg might be useful.
4)clear contradition with the bolded part. Reasons were short, but short valid reasons are better than long invalid ones. I can't really argue about the bandwagon charge. I don't find it scummy, because she did exactly as I asked, but if someone else thinks that bandwagonning is scummy in general, it's hard to say she didn't do that.
[/quote]

It's not a contradiction, though I can see why you'd see it that way. I'm trying to be brief here, since I don't think there is much value in this debate being prolonged.

Basically, I think the uselessness thing is a valid reason to suspect bgg.

When I say that "Once again, Yura jumps on a bandwagon for crappy reasons", I wasn't so much trying to say that the reasons were

invalid

as I was trying to say that they were inadequate, especially given the context (push for a wagon) and history (Yura's patterned wagoning). Perhaps this would be clearer if I approached it from the opposite direction: I wouldn't have had a problem with Yura's vote if she'd given even an attempt at having semi-original reasons for voting bgg, rather than so obviously parroting.

This, as I've already explained, is why I found the pressure thing scummy (with CKD's pressure vote serving as the obvious point of contrast).

As for the bandwagoning, I know that she was doing as you said, but that's not an excuse for it. She's been mindlessly wagonning all game, and I can't see why you inviting her to do so should give her a pass.

Now as for point (2). Besides what I've already said about not finding hypocrisy to be a scum tell, I don't think she was being hypocritical. If you read Yura's post, she accuses bgg of "making useless arguments," While she admits not to being "useless and dumb" but of being thought of as "useless and dumb". Making "useless arguments" and being thought of as "useless and dumb" are two different things, which invalidates the charge of hypocrisy. Both involve being useless, but one is a judgement by others while the other is a deliberate act of creating dumb arguments. Even if she actually admitted to being useless and dumb, that is still not the same thing as making dumb arguments.

Since Yura's posting has shown on a number of occasions that she is aware of her own deficiencies, your point here is inapplicable.

She words it as though it is others thinking she is bad, but it's clear that she agrees with that assessment.

@Vollkan: NK's ARE hard evidence. They are the people who died. Nobody else did. There's always a reason for it and *rarely* it's for WIFOM purposes. Even if the scumteam manages to evade all suspicion, they still have the motivation to want to get rid of people that are likely to get on their trail, unable to be swayed, etc, etc, etc. Being a threat to the scumteam by attacking one of them typically gets your name on their short list pretty quickly so it's likely that scum NK'd to save their own skin. When there's more motivation to do something over another, it can be analyzed and shouldn't be relegated to just WIFOM and ignored.

You've already basically admitted my point: "they still have the motivation to want to get rid of people that are likely to get on their trail, unable to be swayed, etc, etc, etc". That "etc etc etc" captures a huge array of possibilities (including WIFOM, which is far more common than you are making out). There are so many possibilities (WIFOM and non-WIFOM) that relying on NKs as evidence is extremely unreliable.

[Truant]

@bgg: You admitted to not accusing anybody of anything. Town accuses people of being scum, of something being scummy. You saying that you haven't accused anybody means that you're scum that doesn't want to step on toes. If you were town you would be doing something, anything; but not accusing anybody of anything is not pro-town, especially on page 17.

@SC:
1) I'll do my catchup posts as I see fit, bringing to light stuff that catches my eye.
2)

Two things. First, you have now gone back to 100% bandwagon participation, and second, just because you say "hey, don't mean to do x..." doesn't mean you aren't doing X

That said, he is reading extraordinarily scummy. I just wanted to make clear that I was aware.

Votecount?

I took this last line (in bold) to represent bgg's play over the course of pages 17-19 in his conversations with subgenius. Who else were you referring to in this statement if not bgg?

@vollkan: Fine, agree to disagree. As scum I'm more likely to kill somebody that's a threat to either me, my scumgroup or somebody I feel can't be swayed easily than for wifom purposes (especially on N1 when you can't be sure that people will even analyze the NK's at all). With the added motivation for killing a threat (I feel), there is a place to analyze who was killed at night.

Continuing on from page 20:

(Mostly at Max, but to anybody that thinks that I'm scum over this point) Again, I don't trust an SK to do anything pro-town; they're generally easier to find through NK's since it's only one person's motivation rather than a normal collective of people's motivations, and it's faster to compile evidence for it. I was going to post about the other NK when I had a chance (which clearly I did not at the time, and for some time later). Please, elaborate on what about my position throughout the game I've taken makes me scummy or doesn't even make sense. Open question to anybody.

I honestly don't understand how andrew can feel that ckd repeating himself is a scumtell. I use two tabs to catchup in any game I'm in, which is essentially the same thing. It's nothing but a nulltell.

@Regfan: What about his (andrew's) meta makes him scum in this game. I want specific examples and examples from town games where certain behaviors are completely absent.

Sniped by sub.

Alright, except for some stuff in the middle of the game that should be it.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

You are not tasking my posts in as a whole. Bgg is playing in a way that looks fairly scummy. I have already expressed my exact reasons for asserting that he is town

[Regfan]

@regfan, i am wondering why you are picking games that are far apart (im sure i have some scum games in betwen those). are you selectively picking?

These were the only scum games I could find that you were in excluding games that were with verified cheaters. If you do indeed have more can you post them.

Did you read his town games too? I'm not a huge fan of meta cases in the first place, but I'm even less persuaded when someone only links to three games with no indication that he's compared the player's scum games and town games. How is his town play and scum play different and where do you see him displaying his scum tendencies in this game?

I find as mafia he spends a larger period of the game defending his actions, whereas when he's town he's completly open to throwing mud onto anyone he FoS's without defending himself as much, I'll point out some exact examples later today when I get the chance, but I'd recommend you spectate the games I linked and compare with that of this game as well.

@S_C, you've essentially soft-claimed that you have information that leads you to believe/know that Bgg is town, if so can you please out it otherwise we could just be wasting time focusing on a lynch/vote that will never progress.

@Everyone, who would you vote right now if you had to vote someone other then bgg.

Cut by S_C. No you haven't expressed WHY you think he's town, just stated you think he's scummy-town.

[Regfan]

Excuse the double post, I haven't done this for a while due to discussion revolving around certain players and us going in circles, but I feel the need to get my thoughts/reads down so I have something to work with.

Town Reads

Surprise_Carcinogen, I find his play and his defence of Bgg to be a town-tell, I also find majority of his posts to be beneficial to the town.
subgenius, similar to S_C his posts have had substancial content and I find it hard seeing anything in particular that he's done that's scummy.

Null Reads

Maxous

, gone back and forth on him and ended up at null. I'll read into him later.

vollkan

, has posted the most logical points in the game by far but at the same time I find it impossible to attain a read on him, nothing he's done has screamed town or scum.

Truant

, had lurked/been away until recently, no real read on him, will re-read into him later today as well.

yura-chi,

I honeslty don't know whether to read him as dumb mafia or dumb town, it's quite frustrating actually.

Mafia Reads

Andrew94

, strongest mafia read I have thus far, posts have been defensive without any real content posts from him.

curiouskarmadog

, although he's explained a lot of reasoning behind his actions and I certaintly do suspect him a great deal less than before he's still a minor scumread I hold.

bgg1996

, leaning mafia on him he's constantly posting illogical comments and attempting to cover his poor reasoning with a rug until called out for it. This read my change depending on what S_C has to say.

[vollkan]

@Everyone, who would you vote right now if you had to vote someone other then bgg.

Yura, obviously.

Surprise_Carcinogen, I find his play and his defence of Bgg to be a town-tell, I also find majority of his posts to be beneficial to the town.

Sorry if you've explained this in an earlier post, but why do you think it's a towntell?

(NB: I don't believe in towntells as a matter of theory, but I'm particularly surprised that you'd think SC's defence of bgg is one)

subgenius, similar to S_C his posts have had substancial content and I find it hard seeing anything in particular that he's done that's scummy.

vollkan, has posted the most logical points in the game by far but at the same time I find it impossible to attain a read on him, nothing he's done has screamed town or scum.

Why is sub town and I am null when you don't seem to find anything scummy about either of us?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Just because someone doesn't read scum doesn't mean they read town. Hence you're at null, and Sub is town. I honestly don't quite see the town read myself, and I have both of you squarely in 'null' land, but that's the nice thing about opinions.

[Regfan]

Sorry if you've explained this in an earlier post, but why do you think it's a towntell?

The way that the defence has gone about, it seems that S_C is attempting to direct scum-hunting to a place where he deems more effective. ScumS_C would have no problem with TownBgg being interogated and questioned meaning I don't believe SC is mafia if Bgg is town. Reading their interactions also makes me highly doubt that ScumS_C and ScumBgg are the case, I'll provide specific examples later, but in other words I don't see any real scum-motivation from SCC's play as of recent (Especially in regards to the soft-claim).

Why is sub town and I am null when you don't seem to find anything scummy about either of us?

Your playstyle is one that holds logic above all else and while it's one that I respect greatly it's one that I believe can easily be faked as mafia. You read players actions as either:

1) Revealing to their allignment thus a scum-tell deserving points.
2) Irrelevant to their allignment thus adding nothing to your reads.

The fact that you do this means you can classify and explain the reasoning behind your reads due to just pointing to the posts in which you believe 1) was the case. Therefore I don't believe that logic is a town-tell for you in any right, in fact I'd like it if you could link me to a few of your mafia games.

[Maxous]

Maxous: It's just that Yura's latest posts about CKD was so blatently making thoughts and opinions up as she goes along, I'm not giving her the benefit of the doubt anymore. I don't see why a town would just make stuff up like that. She completely forgot her suspicion and vote on Bgg.

Isn't it highly evident from Yuras posts that she's obv newbscum/newbtown and either one would fit the defintion of forgetting their FoS's and sheeping other lynches. I don't mean to say that just because Yura is a newb that they shouldn't be lynched, but surely that's very poor reasoning to vote Yura over your two stronger FoS's.

Sheeping - yes. Forgetting - no.
Regardless of your experience with the game if you have somebody that is your strongest suspect, strong enough to vote for them you simply do not forget that, when you are thinking of who all you suspect in the game, as she did in that instance. It was'nt as if the vote was at the start of the day either, it was with the previous batch of posts she made before that one. This indicated to me that the suspicion and vote on Bgg was insincere and she is indeed just making suspicions up as she goes along.
If she is indeed town it would surprise me in the way she kept changing fos'..with my experience, newer players tend to stick religiously to a particular one or two suspects, no matter how irrational the suspicions may be.
That last point is not a reason I am voting for her however.

By the way with the "stronger fos'" comment do I take it you agree with my suspicons of Truant?

Maxous: iI don't feel I was too indecisive in this game (just plain wrong lol) but here's a game of me as town if you want.
I only played two games as town on this site and the other one was really short - over by page 8 or somthing I think :O

Then what led you to say that you're indecisive as town?

Games off this site

.....

Vote: Andrew94

So do you beleive that Andrew here is bussing CKD then?

@Truant: Is Yura still you're top suspect for SK?
Actually, who would be your second suspect as well if for arguemnts' sake your first guess was wrong?

CKD did come across better with those responses than last time. And with a quick look back.. he was'nt as scummy as I first remembered in day 1.
Meh, not sure :/

Still don't agree with that case on Andrew. I don't agree with what he said about CKD though.

[bgg1996]

bgg1996

, leaning mafia on him he's constantly posting illogical comments and attempting to cover his poor reasoning with a rug until called out for it. This read my change depending on what S_C has to say.

Which of my comments have you found "illogical"?
In what posts did I attempt to "cover my poor reasoning with a rug"?

@bgg: You admitted to not accusing anybody of anything. Town accuses people of being scum, of something being scummy. You saying that you haven't accused anybody means that you're scum that doesn't want to step on toes. If you were town you would be doing something, anything; but not accusing anybody of anything is not pro-town, especially on page 17.

Okay, you're scum. Happy? No you aren't.
Town don't just say "You're scum, this is scummy." They have to find somebody they actually believe to be likely to be part of the mafia. Espescially on what may very well be lylo. The people who accuse people of being scum just 'cause. That would be the mafia.

[vollkan]

Your playstyle is one that holds logic above all else and while it's one that I respect greatly it's one that I believe can easily be faked as mafia. You read players actions as either:

1) Revealing to their allignment thus a scum-tell deserving points.
2) Irrelevant to their allignment thus adding nothing to your reads.

The fact that you do this means you can classify and explain the reasoning behind your reads due to just pointing to the posts in which you believe 1) was the case. Therefore I don't believe that logic is a town-tell for you in any right, in fact I'd like it if you could link me to a few of your mafia games.

Everything you say about my playstyle is true - but I'd like to know why that makes me different from sub.

Also, if you want a history of my games, check out my wiki page. It's only out of date by one or two games, so it provides a good index (I include details of the games as well, to make it easier to look through).

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

The difference is, he's finding you hiding behind the logical nature of your system, and logic is neither pro-town, nor pro-scum. It is a null-tell, and since your entire play and playstyle is based off of the logic, QED: null-read.