Mini 1145 — Plain Mafia (over)

[ICEninja]

Alright everybody, I'd like to bring something to everyone's attention just in case somebody didn't read the rules particularly thoroughly.

11. Days have deadlines of 7 days.

* Day 1 has a deadline of 14 days.

Days are shorter in this game than the standard game. With replacements we might be getting a few more hours, but don't count on being able to get more than 8 or 9 days to come to a lynch. I always do better with more time and more content to read, so I'll do my best to keep up here and I won't join any further games until I'm dead in here.

That being said, I'm going to expect each and every one of you to have substantial amounts of content on a regular basis.

I was going to point out the lack of no-lynch rule, but that was changed. Likewise, the mod changed his (previously horribly broken) exile policy. Many thanks for improving those rules.

Now on to my normal intro. I'd like to get a bit of information about everyone for my personal reference.
1) What is your timezone? This is helpful to know when we're waiting for a player to post, just in case they live overseas. This is particularly important as every hour is going to count in a 1 week deadline.
2) What is your mafia experience here and elsewhere? It is good to know who are first timers and who are veterans. Join date doesn't tell the whole story with alts and hiatuses.
3) How frequently can we be expecting you to post? Keep in mind the shorter deadlines.

1) I live in PDT, which is something like GMT -8.
2) I have an increasing number of on-site games (not quite 20) and have played (mostly modded) a good handful of party style mafia.
3) I will keep up my usual high frequency of large posts. If you have problems with walls of text, you should speak up now.

[ICEninja]

I also find it interesting that we had a night 0. I thought that was just for the purpose of giving scum time to quicktopic, but apparently they got a kill. That must be frustrating for Klazam, who never even got a chance to play. Looks like we're facing a single scum family with no SK, most likely.

I don't really mind large posts, but if everything you post is a wall of text, I reserve the right to skim.

My cases and responses to cases are what end up being particularly large and quote heavy. Those are probably what you should avoid skimming anyway.

[ICEninja]

If everyone may take notice, on the post where I ask my questions, I clearly state that this information is for my own purposes, and I give no indication that they have anything to do with determining anyone's alignment. That will come soon. For now, I just like to know if people are going to be posting at weird hours or are total newbies. The third question is more of a theoretical one that I hope to someday use to catch lurking scum on. It hasn't happened yet, but who knows. I ask these questions every game, and they don't harm anyone to answer them.

I don't want to discuss or quote directly from the game, as it is still ongoing, but I asked the exact same questions in newbie 1133 and Erratus answered them very differently.

He is lying right now in response to question number 2. Townies don't need to lie.

Vote Erratus Apathos

.

As for the extra mislynch, we get one if a doc/jailkeeper/roleblocker prevents a kill, and gives any vig we have the option to shoot without costing us a mislynch. I'm not against the 12 players at day 1 for these reasons.

[ICEninja]

Oh no! Someone is lying in a way that's completely obvious and intentional about something barely game-related at all! He must be scum!

Sarcasm doesn't make my point invalid. He answered my questions before without stupid responses before, very different then his recent answers. What could have changed since then? His role, possibly.

Be useful and vote Lucresia.

You're telling me to vote someone whom you haven't even made a case against. Why should I vote him?

Is your vote on Erratus serious or a joke?

It is as serious a vote as I can think of making with the information we currently possess.

[ICEninja]

You know what else changed? The game environment.

Perhaps. I don't see how it would have changed sufficiently to alter his answers so dramatically, however.

That being said, I see your reasons for voting Lucresia, and they're fairly sound for page 2.

Okay Columbo, what's my motive for lying then?

I don't know. Perhaps you'd want to be treated differently?

My ability to take that sort of shit seriously ran out. That's what changed.

Oh my. You've gotten grumpier since 1133. Funny, I remember you being such a positive force for town fairly quickly there. I'm not seeing it here quite so much, save maybe in 43. This, in particular, I agree with:

The accusation that DRK is hiding something is ridiculous. DRK puts up the first case of the game, that means he's hiding something? Poor deflection here.

One thing additionally that I noticed from Lucretia is this:

I answered the questions from ICE because although it isn't useful in my opinion, I have nothing to hide or harm by answering it.

I feel like this is more about trying to look town than anything else. Suspicious.

I'm considering joining the Lucretia wagon. I'll need to see how she responds to it.

[ICEninja]

In reading everything Pine has posted, only 1 thing really jumped out at me:

I noticed this too. Already had a quick post typed up when I noticed we were already on page 2. I've gotta stop relying on the "Go to first unread post" button. I miss new pages all the time.

He seems to try really hard to make it look like he's not sheeping. Doesn't seem like town would worry so much about that.

[ICEninja]

Occam's Razor-defying explanation.

The most likely thing for someone to do in a situation like that doesn't involve explaining away why they made a similar comment after someone. Town doesn't need to explain that. Therefore, it is not defying Occam's Razor at all to suggest that someone who went through the trouble to explain that probably had a reason to beyond it just happening.

[ICEninja]

That possibility had entered my thoughts. Notice that my vote is not on you. I'll have a look at your meta sometime to see how concerned you are with appearance as town.

[ICEninja]

Ranger's question was asking for clarification. I understood what Erratus was saying, but realize how it could be taken in different ways.

Pine, there are some very unpleasant MSers, but most of the games I've experienced have been quite civilized. Let's try to keep this one civilized, as well.

Peabody, did you suspect that Ranger's question could somehow have been a scum tell?

[ICEninja]

There are quite a few people not posting as much as they should be.

Valern, is that all you have to comment on? That question was definitely not one of the more interesting things that have happened so far this game. Especially considering how what you don't like about it is that he's looking like he's doing something without actually doing anything. Pot, kettle?

Trendall hasn't read the thread or posted any content yet. Hopefully his V/LA will be up before long.

Romanus hasn't really done anything except poke at Pine with little or bad reasoning. Not liking that so much.

AMP likewise hasn't really contributed content at all. What has struck you as most interesting so far?

[ICEninja]

Do you find people who don't post much to be scummy, ICE?

Slightly. I think it benefits scum more to say little and fly under the radar than it does town, and it benefits town more to stir up some waves than it does scum, to an extent. I'm not saying all lurkers are scum, but it is hard to root out scum during day 1 if people are lurking.

It also personally irritates me, as I take each and every game as a commitment, and if people aren't playing then it simply isn't fun.

Do you subscribe to LaL then? Is there ever a time where a townie lying is justified?

I don't automatically lynch any liar, but I find lies to be huge scum tells. The bigger the lie, obviously, the bigger a scum tell it is. There are exceptions, such as what you stated, and cops might want to lie about their read on someone for a day if they want another night action before revealing etc, but most lies have absolutely no town motivation what-so-ever.

So if you lie, you'd better expect me to be quite suspicious.

Erratus's lie is very minor, so it isn't attracting lynchworthy suspicion from me, but it is still noteworthy in my eyes.

is one of the most true statements I have seen in a while, large content-less posts are the hallmark of scummy play.

I find commenting on as little as possible an alternative effective scum strategy. I find clear, well thought out logical arguments with transparent thinking to be helpful to town. The better I can understand someone's thought processes, the better I can understand someone's true motives. If someone isn't posting enough thoughts on things, it makes me feel like they could be hiding something.

These are just different mindsets when playing, of course. I'm just a verbose person, and get along well with similarly verbose people. I have no problem playing with people who disagree with me on play style.

[ICEninja]

Goodness, this is a mess. It is page 4, Lucresia has fallen apart and claimed at L-2, Valern is asking for more votes on her, and more than 1 would be a lynch.

Lucresia is indeed making a lot of posts and saying absolutely zero relevant things in them. I don't like this. That being said, I don't want to put someone at L-1 on page 4. We've got a player who has a grand total of 1 in his post count, and several players who have contributed little or nothing to the game so far.

I actually don't like lynchking's vote at all. He shows up, and the

only

thing he comments on is agreeing with the leading bandwagon. Sounds pretty opportunistic to me.

Unvote, vote lynchking

.

Lucresia, stop this...whatever it is you're doing, and find scum. If you are scum, go ahead and continue to post zero content posts.

[ICEninja]

Seems to support the Lucresia wagon but is keeping a bad vote on Erratus.

I'm going to assume you haven't read my most recent post, because you'd have to be pretty unintelligent to say this after having read it. I'm neither supporting the wagon nor voting Erratus. I'm voting someone who just jumped on the wagon.

Yep

And you for sheeping.

Unless Lucresia quickly and greatly improves I am not at all opposed to seeing her lynched, even if that lynch ends the day early. As things stand now I feel very confident she's scum.

This is a horribly anti-town mindset to have. We have a player that, as I've mentioned before, has a post count of ONE. I can't imagine anyone has more than a couple decent reads one way or another, and I'm not ready for a lynch yet. She's suspicious in how she keeps posing non-content, but she hasn't done anything lynchworthy yet.

[ICEninja]

I prefer short, fast-paced games that go too fast for people to get to the point where they're posting walls full of argument by repetition/fluff/quote wars. You're welcome to disagree with me, but that doesn't make my opinion anti-town.

Excessively short days that don't generate enough information for the next day are anti-town. Excessively long days that generate a lot of meaningless discussion are anti-town. I tend to do my best to get town in to that happy middle range where we've got a good amount of info to move in to day 2 with, but with a readable day 1.

And after reading ICE in iso I like that wagon even better anyways.

You like a wagon that is based entirely on incorrect premise?

Oh and, you attacked Peabody right away but changed your vote quickly. Did you jump off the Peabody wagon because people weren't going for it? I mean, obviously my vote on you wasn't very strong. I make the best case I can early game to generate more helpful discussion, as both town and scum. I still think it was really weird how you answered my questions.

There are exactly zero justified votes on me. I wonder which one is the most likely scum?

[ICEninja]

Notice the strong language in that last sentence: "Townies don't need to lie". That doesn't sound like an obviously not very strong vote to me.

I normally don't like to use meta as a defense, but me making strongly worded votes in the beginning of a game is completely normal for me regardless of my role. I just don't like RVS very much. Your vote on me is just as weak is mine was on you, but your's isn't for the purpose of getting us out of RVS. It's terrible.

You are a very irritating person.

Did you vote for lynchking mainly because of his lurking or mainly because of the vote in his post?

I clearly stated in my voting post that I found his vote opportunistic. His only action in this game so far has been sheeping, and extremely weak sheeping at that.

[ICEninja]

You're voting me because he's irritating and I said so? How is that an overreaction?

He was irritating in our other game too, I just had a town read on him then. And that game is over now.

More non justified votes on me. If this isn't a scum fueled bandwagon, then I don't know what is.

[ICEninja]

KEEP ATTACKING THE WHOLE WAGON, SO THAT TOWN WILL BE AFRAID TO GET ON

If the whole wagon has terrible reasons for voting me, then I'll attack the whole wagon. I don't care what the rest of the town thinks, as they don't have terrible votes on me.

Or, 'if you think I'm mafia you're stupid'.

Actually, it was "if you think I'm supporting the Lucresia wagon and keeping a bad vote on Erratus you're stupid". Because I wasn't doing either.

ICE is scummy because he went into SURVIVAL MODE ZOMG the moment he got some pressure on him. This is not a towny reaction to pressure. A towny reaction to being voted is to more or less ignore it (unless that person is voting them for scummy reasons) and continue to concentrate on scumhunting.

This paragraph is so bad I don't even know where to begin.
1) Lucresia went in to survival mode way harder than I did, yet you unvoted her.
2) A townie reaction to being voted for reasons as bad as the ones put on me is NOT to ignore them.
3) The votes on me are

awful

, and I have every right to attack them.
4) I do happen to be concentrating on scum hunting, because I'm nearly positive that there is scum on my wagon somewhere.

Like Ranger, I was having a hard time deciding who was the scummiest person on my wagon. Erratus has had the least scummy (albeit quite rude) attacks on me, where Valern has just been seemingly purposefully trying to get under my skin and attack me without reason. Romanus's original vote on me was horrible and Trendall's vote was a sheep of a horrible vote, but I'm feeling like Valern is still the worst right now. He hopped on a wagon after the Lucresia wagon lost steam, despite being VERY confident that she was scum, and now looks like he's going to try to push my lynch to the end of the day. Perhaps unless my wagon loses steam and then he pushes whatever easy wagon comes along next?

Unvote, vote Valern

.

[ICEninja]

Hey guys, I'm really sorry for the delay. I've had way to much on my plate the past few days. I'll be more active from here on out.

Still waiting for that "active from here on out". Your entire game's worth of content was an opportunistic sheeping of page 2 votes, and you're 12 hours away from a prod.

Just because my vote is off of you doesn't mean I'm not noticing your absence.

Lucresia has also become oddly silent after the pressure on her vanished. She has still posted almost no content and hasn't scum hunted much at all.

Romanus still hasn't responded to me calling him out on his vote that was based on not just 1, but 2 faulty premises.

[ICEninja]

Lucresia, you kept on saying "this player did X" without saying what you think about it. That is useless to us. We already know what happened. Some things like this, referring to Romanus:

Changed his vote to Ice Ninja beleiving his posts were more scummy based on supporting my bandwagon but keeping a bad vote on Erratus.

You didn't comment on the fact that several posts before I clearly stated that I did not like the wagon on you despite finding you suspicious, and had actually changed my vote to someone on your wagon away from Erratus before Romanus even brought this up. That doesn't deserve mention? What do you feel about his vote in context, when both the reasons he give for voting me are

blatantly wrong

?

Then you make this interesting observation:

Although he says they weren't used to find scum, then contradicts himself by saying someone was lying and that they must be scum based on the answer to a question that wasn't supposed supposedly being used to find scum in the first place.

I've never before used these questions to actually find scum. I've never had anyone lie to me (to my knowledge, anyway) regarding them. There's a first time for everything. That isn't a contradiction, that's taking something that I don't usually scum hunt with and used it to scum hunt.

Mentions that the activity in this game is low and brings up the following as people who haven't posted much or posted anything he feels is worthwhile: Valern, Trendall, Romanus, & AMP. Does NOT mention LynchKing who hasnt even posted at all! Possible scum buddy?

I used the ISO function to find out which players had the least content. At that point in the game, I literally wasn't even aware that there was a player named lynchking in the game.

He pointed out a few things he didn't like while ommitting things that had already been covered *(I like this because it allows you to want to read his posts and not just skim since the content is fresh and there is actual thought provoking ideas to consider.

The irony, it burns me.

Your posting about Erratus is 100% IoA. You say a bunch of things he's done, but don't give a

single

opinion about it. I find that strange considering how many little pokes you made at me in your analysis.

Analysis of other players seem to be alright, though there's a continuing trend of severe IoA. Way too much of it, in fact. About 90% of that post could have been trimmed, and we'd have the

exact

same information.

I like the work you put in to that, and I don't really get a huge scum vibe from you for it, but I just can't shake why you'd put so many words and so little analysis.

Mod, we've got some prodding to do, I believe. Lynchking for sure, and I think some others are up.

[ICEninja]

Yes, obviously I had not read ICE's last post when I made mine. I had composed it much earlier and then posted it without checking.

While, if you're busy, I'm not exactly going to call it scummy, but posting a vote like that is pretty anti-town. Especially considering how long it took for you to catch up. I'll let this slide now since you've got RL going on, but I'm not sure you unvoted in a way that town would.

I think over-reaction and defensiveness comes off more scummy than it actually is. As with most things, it isn't that it's done, it's how it's done.

I think ICE has reacted about the same way he has played the game thus far- aggressively.
Unvote

So you're unvoting me because my reaction to pressure has been aggression. You also have no vote on after that.

Aggression is a null tell. You haven't given any reason for no longer finding me scum, especially considering how you still feel like I did what you accused me of doing. It looks like a hasty retreat from a bandwagon that is falling apart.

I'll be closely watching your voting habits.

I agree, at a second glance, that Peabody's attack on pine is pretty awful.

I also disagree with Ranger in that Erratus is attacking me without base. Out of the 4 votes on me, he was the only one that actually managed any actual scum hunting. The other votes were significantly worse. Ranger needs to put his vote on Trendall/Valern instead.

AMP is actively lurking, agreed. I'm definitely for him getting some pressure for it.

DRK, what causes you to feel that Lucresia is a town read? I can understand not thinking she's scum at this point, but flat out giving a town read? That seems a bit of a stretch.

[ICEninja]

Welcome Yoshi, you sneaky bastard. I won't be giving you any free town reads this game, that's for sure!

No surprise on the flake, though.

[ICEninja]

“I'm considering joining the Lucresia wagon. I'll need to see how she responds to it.” Why didn’t you join it then? I think she was only L-3 then. What’s wrong with putting her at L-2?

I felt suspicious of Lucresia, but as I stated in other posts, I didn't like the wagon on her so much. The initial case was fine, but the following votes just felt like they piled on too easily to me.

That’s some badass backtracking, given how aggressive you were in voting him on p2. Why vote for someone over a ‘very minor’ lie that isn’t attracting ‘lynchworthy suspicion’ from you? Doesn’t a vote inherently imply that your suspicion is lynchworthy?

Recall how I treated WeaponsOfMassConstruction in our previous game? He did something that wasn't really a lynchable offense, but I put a lot of pressure on him boldly anyway. I do this to advance the game out of random voting in to serious discussion as quickly as possible. If needed, I can link you to more games where I do this.

Romanus’s vote of ICE in #98 is actually pretty sound—ICE was hunting mostly on Lucresia, but has been parking his vote elsewhere.

It would have been if the vote came earlier. At the time of him posting, I was already applying pressure to your (inactive) slot for being inactive with a horrible sheepvote, and had made statements stating suspicion of Lucresia but dislike of the wagon.

Hopefully that should clear up any previous issues you have with my play.

While I like the fact that Ranger is voting Trendall, something about it bugs me. I don't know why, but for some reason I don't like the way he voted him. I'll do some closer reading of Ranger's play and what has been said about Ranger recently to try to figure out why this is bugging me.

[ICEninja]

Interesting, Valern took his vote off me despite being fairly convinced earlier. This is a trend, in fact. Let me point out some of the things he's said.

Unless Lucresia quickly and greatly improves I am not at all opposed to seeing her lynched, even if that lynch ends the day early. As things stand now I feel very confident she's scum.

Lucresia's posting hasn't greatly improved. She made one massive IIoA post then disappeared when the pressure dropped off her. Yet, despite you having said this, you seem to have forgotten all about her. Sure you mention her in your most recent post, but you actually put her below the AMP slot in your scum list, and you vote for Trendall. What changed since what I just quoted? The amount of steam running on a Lucresia wagon, that's what.

scummy overreaction is scummy and also overreaction. Also, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

VOTE: ICEninja

Lucresia can wait.

This is awful. Just dropping how strong of a scum read on Lucresia for this wagon which you based on overreaction, and the fact that I called Erratus annoying? The votes on me were horrible, and I just wasn't sure how to react to votes so bad.

Now you've dropped both bandwagons, as they lost steam, to jump on the newest largest growing wagon. I'm noticing a pattern here.

But my issue is that when you say you like a fast-paced game, that does not quite jibe with my memory of playing with TownYou.

Could I have a link to the aforementioned game? I'd like to have a look myself.

BTW, I was sooooo town in that game

Eat it,

neutral read

.

[ICEninja]

Oh and after looking, it's even worse than I thought.

Lucresia wagon as of vote count 1.2: DeathRowKitty, Erratus Apathos, RangeroftheNorth,

Valern

ICEninja wagon as of vote count 1.4: Romanus, Trendall, Erratus Apathos,

Valern

Trendall wagon as of vote count 1.6: DeathRowKitty, DarthYoshi, RangeroftheNorth, with a 4th vote recently placed by

Valern

.

Notice any trends here? There are 2, in fact. Valern is on all of them, and he always joins late.

That is 3 wagons that have fired up, and every single time Valern was the 4th vote on it, after the wagons have picked up steam. While I like the Trendall wagon, we definitely need a bigger Valern wagon going on here.

[ICEninja]

have you figured out what was 'bugging' you about Ranger's vote on Trendall yet?

Right, so actually his Trendall vote doesn't bother me so much as the whole situation itself. He didn't like my wagon so much (for great reasons, it was awful), and scum hunted based on the people on my wagon. That is fine, but his vote for Erratus wasn't so great. Not only was it wrong, Erratus was the least scummy person on my wagon. He then admitted he was wrong, and switched his vote to Trendall, who already had 2 votes on him previously.

This could definitely be scum looking for a safe place to put his wagon. I'll make a mental note of this as if either Trendall or Erratus flip town, this would look mildly bad for Ranger. For the time being, he isn't nearly as scummy as Valern.

Yoshi, meta arguments notwithstanding, what do you think the motives are of repeatedly jumping on to the leading bandwagon? Valern claims to frequently jump on to bandwagons late, and obviously town has to once in a while, but doing it 3 times in 5 pages is ridiculous.

[ICEninja]

Erratus, I don't think anyone can accuse you of not scum hunting at this point. However, your last post seems odd. Since you're willing to lynch based on process of elimination, it is safe to say that you have a town read on every player except Meransiel, Trendall, Romanus, and Peabody. You're most interesting in lynching AMP slot, for having a lack of content.

There was minimal content, yes, but there was some. There also wasn't any scummy content. Personally, I find scummy content (such as Trendall and Valern) much worse than minimal content. PoE and lurker hunting aside, which player has the scummiest

content

to you (not lack of content), and why?

[ICEninja]

Activity in this game is not good at all, considering the short days. Deadline is going to really jump on us.

I still really like a Valern lynch, though I don't mind the Trendall wagon either.

Sad how inactive the AMP slot

still

is.

[ICEninja]

More sheep votes for Valern, please.

[ICEninja]

With the advent of Trendall's recent vote hop, I'd be willing to switch over and drop the hammer if his wagon continues to build steam and we still don't have enough to lynch Valern.

Trendall is still second, though. Keep in mind that I did indeed ask for the sheep votes because I do indeed have a damn good case against Valern, so it wasn't quite as bad as you all make it. However, unvoting a top suspect with the amount of conviction he held to sheep him is pretty fishy.

[ICEninja]

A claim sounds good to me.

[ICEninja]

I think I clarified this already, but I voted ICE because of his "you're irritating" comment to Erratus more than anything.

Had this been your first vote, that would be fine. But let me quote your previous statement about Lucresia after I pointed out that you seem to be looking for an early lynch:

Exactly.

Unless Lucresia quickly and greatly improves I am not at all opposed to seeing her lynched, even if that lynch ends the day early. As things stand now I feel very confident she's scum.

As I said, she never greatly improved her posting, and he switched his vote to me from a read like that because I told Erratus that he was being very irritating. He

was

being very irritating. That just doesn't look good for you.

I won't do any hammering until Pine comes back with a solid post.

Mod, whats going on with that AMP slot?

[ICEninja]

I know I've tunneled on Valern a lot, but I'd like to bring this to everyone's attention:

There have been 4 solid wagons during day 1 so far. The wagon on Lucresia was early and fast. The wagon on me was terrible. The wagon on Trendall built up a lot of strength, and the wagon on Peabody seems to have come out of nowhere last minute.

Where was the wagon on Valern? If wagons started so easily throughout day 1 for mediocre reasons, then why has no wagon built on Valern that would have good reasons? Plenty of people put forth some suspicion for reasons that I pointed out. However, no wagon ever formed. Wagons are hard to build on scum during day 1, and fairly easy to build on town. Think about it, if Trendall was scum, would the wagon build on him so fast? Would scum so willingly bus when there were still other options (like Valern) to follow up on?

Then again, the wagon on Trendall totally fell apart at the snap of a finger when the hint of a Peabody wagon showed up. That looks really bad for Trendall, in my eyes.

I don't think we should be lynching Peabody today. It really should be between Trendall and Valern in my opinion. With the exception of Pine, who has been on Peabody since forever, I don't feel like this wagon has built on any solid foundations. The speed at which the Trendall wagon fell apart in the face of a new target seems suspicious to me, and likewise the difficulty it was to get votes on Valern seems suspicious to me.

We're running short on time, so let's come together as town now.

Mod, speaking of time, what does the deadline look like right now, considering the replacements?

[ICEninja]

Rly? Plz explain. If you have a town read on Peabody, I'd like to know what youre reasons are. Similarly, if you don't find Peabody's #212-213 scummy, I'd like to know why.

I don't have a town read on Peabody, and never have since his terrible case on Pine. 212 and 213, however, in my eyes haven't been enough to convince me of Peabody scum over Valern scum. That being said, Erratus just made a really damn good point against Peabody. He found Pine scummy for bandwagoning, voting sheepishly, and being inconsistent. He's bandwagoned in a sheepish way, and is thus being inconsistent with his reads and opinions. This, in my eyes, is even more damning than his 212.

As a result, I will throw my support behind a Peabody wagon if people promise to take my case against Valern seriously tomorrow.

inHim is pointing out a lot of things that don't really determine alignment. I'll respond to his points against me if necessary when he's caught up, but it's some seriously weak stuff. The fact that he declares Trendall town in 228, says nothing of him in 234, and also calls Valern town in 234 makes me wonder if he's even reading the same game we are. His points against Lucresia are probably even weaker than his points against me. I'm definitely not impressed with this slot so far.

[ICEninja]

Valern's 246 is goodposting.

Erratus has pretty much only had goodposting for a while.

Ranger is higher on my townlist than he used to be.

Lucresia is more likely scum now than she used to be, especially since she's had a worthless Pine vote for quite some time now.

Pine, out of context, looks more or less fine. However, taking his votes out of ISO and in to the game are pathetically weak or sheepish, without having done much of anything to advance the game.

Trendall is probably scum. I feel like we should lynch a player who has claimed anyway, since 2 of them have. If we force a 3rd claim, it has a higher likelihood of being a power role, and we're also rounding down the number of VTs that scum could hit in a NK tonight. Due to this and my decreasing scum read on Valern, I am still fine with hammering or joining the wagon. I don't have any time to work out the most recent votes, so I'll

Unvote

and place my vote after having a look at the revised vote count to see what Trendall is at.

[ICEninja]

Peabody is at L-3, and Trendall is at L-4. We need to rebuild this Trendall wagon.

Vote Trendall.

[ICEninja]

Pine seems to be having no trouble keeping up in 2 other games, and starting a 3rd. I don't like this replace out at all.

Looks like deadline will be extended more though, we'll probably get until Sunday which is good. It gives Trendall more time to ignore the points against him and secure himself as scum.

[ICEninja]

Pity, Pine looks like a new alt. I wanted to look at some past games of his to see which alignment he prefers, and if there are any roles he doesn't like playing, but I don't see any completed games by him.

[ICEninja]

Looks like activity is probably going to grind to a halt until pianist, Quilford, and Pine's replacement get caught up.

Thankfully, Trendall continues to improve the case on himself. I approve.

[ICEninja]

Apparently not posting during night earns you a prod if you don't PM something to the mod. That is mildly annoying.

Quil sure seemed to know that Trendall was going to flip VT. I don't like that.

Scum Valern still makes sense to me, considering the first half of day 1, but I'll need to look in to it more. I don't have a lynchworthy case at the moment.

I need some more content from pianist, something about him bugs me.

[ICEninja]

Oh yeah Valern, I believe you need to eat your hat. Twice.

[ICEninja]

Wow, Valern in his image looks exactly how I imagined him!

I like your VCA. I also like your suspicion of those without votes, in particular Peabody and inHim.

I've been grumpy today, I'll post more content when I'm in a better mood.

[ICEninja]

Lucresia had a good case against her, and I'm wondering why, though you voiced suspicion, you voted for two other people who have less evidence against them rather than never placing a vote on Lucresia?

Lucresia was at L-2 on page 4. Me voting her, at the time you're suggesting, would have meant an L-1 vote. She had already claimed, even. Placing an L-1 vote at that point in time was definitely not the right move. Putting pressure on some people is a great scum hunting tactic, but Lucresia seemed fairly squirrely, and the potential for a bad hammer at that point was very real.

This question looks forced. If Romanus unvoted because he found his vote was on a bad premise, why would he still find you as scum? I believe Romanus' reason for unvoting was good.

Read Romanus's unvote post here, and you'll see why I made that post, and asked that question. He stated that he still thought I did what he voted me for, and that he unvoted me because I was aggressive. Aggression is a complete null tell.

That being said, I actually really like your analysis of DRK. He hasn't made a single vote with independent thinking yet.

I think Pine's tracking of Peabody theory makes sense, but I'm not willing to lynch based on just that.

[ICEninja]

Were you still afraid that by joining the wagon at L-3 a lynch would occur? If not, why didn't you join the wagon in favor of keeping your vote on Erratus?

If you look back at the point in time that I suggested I might be joining the Lucresia wagon, the only thing I found suspicious for was noted in the exact same post. It wasn't really any stronger of a case than the one against Erratus. A vote for Lucresia, based on what I found scummy at that point, would pretty much have been just as bad a vote as my Erratus vote, but it would have been L-2. I needed to see more scum posting from her to join a wagon that late in order for it to be justified, and I found lynchking's single post, made shortly after, to be hugely opportunistic. Considering how he replaced out and probably never read beyond page 2 or 3, that is obviously mitigated.

[ICEninja]

Seriously, inHim? That's all you give us? That post was a joke. Zero actual defense, zero scum hunting, zero content and then "OK, enough about me."

Give town reasons not to throw two votes on you, today, and either in the same or directly after post, give town at LEAST one better lynch candidate, with good reasoning as to why the are a good lynch candidate. I'm done being patient with your player slot.

[ICEninja]

DRK still hasn't made a content post yet this game. Let's cool it on the trigger finger there.

[ICEninja]

inHim, please claim.

[ICEninja]

Give it a rest, Erratus. You're being very anti-town right now.

[ICEninja]

Alright well I had a huge post full of content that I was going to make tomorrow but looks like that isn't happening.

Good job.

I've been busy with taxes and all but would have had time to get through everything. I guess we'll see what happens.

[ICEninja]

I also think crazy is the most likely scum. I'll do a close review of Ranger, who is probably my only remaining significant town read just to make sure I'm not wrong about him, then post my reads on all the remaining players.

Mod, I'm pretty sure inHim isn't voting on the account that he's dead. He probably doesn't need to be on the "not voting" list.

[ICEninja]

Funny, I was actually thinking towards the end of day 2 about derailing the inHim wagon for a crazy wagon, but this is going

way

too fast. The connection is strong, though, and adds to my reasons for being suspicious of crazy yesterday, and I'm willing to see crazy lynched. I'm not, however, willing to see him lynched before I really have an opportunity to look at all the players.

The week prior to Easter is always one of the busiest of the year for me, and I've been struggling to keep up my normal level of content in this game as it is, so I would take it as a personal favor if we didn't let this game drop in to night before Friday or so.

I will, however, have some time set aside tomorrow to follow up on the posting I've promised.

[ICEninja]

Here is something I'd like everyone to take a look at:
Quilford declared, in his opening posts after replacing in, that Pine was extremely scummy, and made a great case against him. He then voted for him.
His next post, he declares that Trendall is town (with a seemingly fair amount of confidence, too) and continues until Erratus points out something mildly damning. Quilford then jumps all over that and pulls a crazy 180 read flip on Trendall. It just seems weird to me, considering how he just declared "in be4 VT" thing.

Also, besides 1 post early after replacing in, he mentions very little of inHim's slot. In his post regarding inHim's slot, he pointed out some things that are scummy that the slot did. He later, during day 2, states that he's "still fine" with inHim's lynch. He never at any point advocated the lynch of inHim before this. I'm getting a distancing vibe from it.

His reasoning for currently voting crazy are decently justified, so I'm not hugely suspicious of it. I will be, however, should crazy flip town. All in all, he's looking mildly suspicious but not today's best lynch.

Peabody, while looking fairly suspicious for reasons of earlier in the game, isn't looking quite as bad as he used to. I think the fact that Pine died as tracker and flipped town and all looked bad for Peabody. I don't think Peabody is our best lynch, but I'll be looking over him very closely should we enter lylo.

Erratus, while having scum hunted so hard to the point of having crazy tunnel vision and being anti-town, seems to do this as town. I'm having a really hard time clearing this guy as town in my head, but I'm having an even harder time really thinking this guy is scum.

Valern is also a double sided coin. In many posts, I feel like he's one of the most pro-town players we have. However, he's also piqued my suspicion several times, and his day 1 play was just awful. It's lame to be giving neutral reads this late in the game, but I don't currently have the time or patience to research his meta or delve any more deeply in to his posts for now.

Crazy is our best lynch for today for glaringly obvious reasons. All the cases presented against him have been incredibly valid and his defenses have been close to non-existent, especially since he screwed himself even further by saying he had a scum read on him for his day 2 actions. Bad bad bad.

DRK and Ranger are either town or scum that deserve to win.

[ICEninja]

As I stated earlier, I strongly prefer this day continue until at least Friday as I'll more or less be V/LA for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and won't be hammering right now.

If anyone voting crazy doesn't wish to have him lynched today, take your vote off right now. I'm looking forward to crazy's response of Ranger's latest post, and will likely hammer some time Friday barring some extremely significant new information.

[ICEninja]

I believe a mass claim must happen.

I highly recommend that no one discuss the game before we decide upon a mass claim happening or not. Then should we agree that a mass claim is the correct move, we shouldn't discuss the game until the mass claim is complete. This leaves scum with the least possible information with which to fabricate their claims with, and gives them the most rope to hang themselves with.

Unless we have a cop or watcher or something that can confirm us a scum kill, in which case town auto wins.

[ICEninja]

So far we've had a tracker and a doctor flip, whereas we've had 2 goons flip for the mafia. Balance-wise, I would guess that we either have one decent power role left or 2 kind-of-meh power roles. If someone has a result that's likely to put the game into a 1v1, it should be claimed now, since we can just lynch both players for an easy win, but barring that, I think it would be better to wait until 3 players alive to have the claim and potentially have a player clear from balance considerations.

Shhh. Let everyone weigh in about the claim. Should we mass claim, we want scum to have the absolute minimum information possible.

Oh and I think everyone aught to give Zodiark13 a round of applause for stepping in and saving this game in Fenhl's absence. Thank you good sir.

[ICEninja]

I'm a VT.

Quilford is up.

[ICEninja]

And I agree with Valern, this process needs to go quickly and anyone who delays it is probably scum.

[ICEninja]

Alright well Kitty is obviously not a serial killer, as they would have killed multiple targets. While a 2 shot vig is unorthodox, I wouldn't put it past Fenhl who put in a weird doctor mod. I'm not sure what compulsive means, except perhaps being forced to protect? I suppose that would play in with the tracker or something?

Since town has no cop, I'm guessing the last scum is a role blocker, and probably bussed one or both scum buddies. I'm going to take a close look at the votes for scum, particularly of those that seemed weak or overly convinced.

Since DRK was one of my two strong town reads yesterday after a decent re-read, I'm going to fully believe that claim. Ranger is still a town read of mine, and will likely remain one unless someone shows me some very damning evidence otherwise.

Peabody was a slight scum read, so I'm glad that scum took care of him for us. They must have had some kind of power role read on him, because I don't think we could have taken him to lylo, and that night kill really did us a service.

Off the top of my head without going back and doing some reading and analysis, I'm going to say Quilford is our scum pick today, though Valern is a decent possibility.

[ICEninja]

Yeah, Quilford's crazy vote wasn't so great. His presence during day 3 was also nearly nonexistent. I'll read things deeper tomorrow, but I think we might have our scum team.

[ICEninja]

I'm interested that you say this with only two people left. I think this is scum looking for an easy reason to point the finger.

I said this just to make sure no one (scum) would intentionally drag their feet on the claim. I had no intention on going through with a lynch based on how long they took, it was simply a pressure statement.

Isn't calling someone scummy advocating their lynch?

Absolutely not. It is one of the most commonly done skills as scum to appear that they find someone scummy but to not actually want their lynch. You absolutely looked like you were doing just this. You pointed out, to a very slight degree, who that slot had done that was scummy, then you went about pushing another player's lynch for most of the day.

Why

wasn't my vote on crazy very good

?

Underlined mine to put the quote in context. Your entire vote was "I vote for crazy based on reasining that I said

in my very first post of the game

. There are 2 things wrong with this. One, the information was outdated. Two, your conclusion of the slot in said post was

slightly leaning

scum. You can't just say "alright I'll lynch this player who is slightly leaning scum without contributing anything more to the discussion". It was a weak bus.

For the record, I had every intention to hammer crazy, but he self hammered. I made it very clear towards the end of the day that he was the player I wanted lynched, and I made no attempt to shift the wagon elsewhere.

Furthermore, we should probably be looking for players who bussed. Crazy would not self hammer if his scum buddy wasn't on the wagon already, thus denying him the chance to gain some town cred. Since both scum have flipped goon, we've probably got a remaining power role (I'm guessing role blocker, as it is most common). Power roles usually bus their goons for town cred.

But I'll let those who've been here longer weigh the risks vs benefits of such a strategy.

As I said, it seems like the likelihood of the last scum being a role blocker is way too high to employ this strategy. I say it is definitely out.

Romanus/Crazy slot's vote/unvote on ICE seems like an obv-bus/distancing manoeuvre in hindsight.

Now that you point this out, it sort of does, and there's really not much I can say to defend myself from this point. It was just a bad vote made by scum, really. They do that to town to try and get bandwagons rolling, which he did. Once he was called out on it, he backtracked so hard.

and then there's the reason I initially voted him in the first place, which is that he had a scummy overreaction to people voting him. This point is still valid.

I'm pretty sure that wagon on me was horrible, and it fell apart for good reasons. I didn't overreact to anything, a significant wagon jumped on me for abysmally bad reasons, and I reacted just the right amount. You never had valid reasons for voting me, and you can't use these to vote for me now.

NK speculation in his above post. There is NO POINT to it and it only serves to pad his post and make it look like he has more to say with actual conviction behind it than he does.

What? Scum killed a scum read of mine. Of course I'm going to say something on the matter. I fail to see anything useless or scummy about what I said.

Finally, there is Quilford bringing up my calling out of EA in order to get us out of RVS. Talk about desperate. If you guys seriously think that was a scum tell, I can think of 3 games just off the top of my head where I did the

exact same thing

as town. It is a play style tell, not an alignment tell, and Quilford trying to throw that dirt in my face is scummy as hell.

Scum knows that I need to die today. DRK is going to be night killed out of necessity, and Ranger isn't going to be lynched. Whichever between QUilford and Valern is scum knows that they HAVE to take the other to lylo to win.

I'll dig down and present my findings of Quilford and Valern probably today. I'm almost positive that scum is between these two, and like I said in day 3, if Ranger is scum, he deserves to win. Hopefully I'll be able to give a clear showing of which between Valern and Quilford is the best lynch today. There's no need to take this to lylo at all.

[ICEninja]

Yo, ICE. You seem to be focusing a lot on how the scum are thinking right now and what they thought over the last night.

I do? I commented that scum made a poor night kill choice. Anything other than that? I've got a big spanking post there that you seemed to have ignored, that says virtually nothing of the sort. Are you trying also trying to throw dirt on me for things that aren't there?

Looking at crazy's lynch wagon, he's got Ranger, Peabody, Quilford, and himself. Ranger was very town by starting the wagon, in my eyes. Peabody is confirmed town, so there isn't much to speculate on about that. Quilford jumps on the wagon without giving any reasoning beyond "for reasons stated [in my entry post]." In said entry post, he concluded that the slot was slightly leaning scum. This looks very much like a bus, and Quilford is really the only person on the wagon who could have been busing.

Likewise, look at Quilford's vote on inHim. It was just "I'm still fine with this lynch" after having said fairly little about the slot.

Also, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to Valern's ISO 26:

On the other hand, Romanus (Crazy's slot) did that thing where he inexplicably defended Lucresia (Quilford's slot) early on, so if Quilford flips scum I'd definitely take a harder look at Crazy. (And Quilford probably is scum bussing his buddy imo. I really don't have anything concrete on Quilford but there are a lot of things about him that really twinge my gut the wrong way.)

Funny how all of that disappeared because he said "what?" to Erratus's evil face. In fact, Valern is now saying that Quilford is probably town based on his voting patterns, when earlier he stated that Quilford is probably scum busing.

I think our better bet is Quilford for today. If Quilford isn't (probably the last?) scum, then Valern assuredly is. Valern's play definitely doesn't strike me as busing quite as much as Quilford's, and crazy self hammering before scum PR Valern could get on the wagon doesn't add up so well, so he isn't the best lynch for today.

[ICEninja]

I'm going to be on limited access until Saturday evening, but I will definitely have time at some point tomorrow to stop by.

The reason I'm not convinced by the case against Quilford is that when crazy was trying to divert the bandwagon on inHim, he tried to start one on quilford.

I'm willing to listen to a case against Valern, but I think the fact that scum crazy self hammered before scum PR Valern could bus equally reduces suspicion on him as your point does on Quilford, and I have more points against Quilford than I do against Valern. We'll see how I feel about your case, though, as I'm open to a Valern lynch if there's good reasoning.

[ICEninja]

Valern, Of the four posts you quoted, the first was me responding to your accusation, the second one you said almost the same thing yourself, the 3rd was, as I've said before, worth pointing out, and the last one is simply me voicing that I know what scum is trying to do in order to win. So unless you can actually point out how any of this is scummy, you're just padding your case.

And I'm not responding to you for the most part because there's no point in me responding to someone I know is scum except where it might be useful for non-scum to read it.

Oh? You "know" I'm scum, do you? Then either you're scum, or town who is being foolishly bravado. The burden of proving my guilt is on you. Obviously Quilford doesn't have any real points on me, so if you want me lynched its up to you to respond to it. If the case against you ends up being damning, then obviously you better respond to everything to try and convince us you aren't scum.

ICE, why would I bus my scumbuddies in my first posts of the game?

What you did is you called your scum buddy "slightly leaning scum" (AKA FoS) and called town pine "SCUMMITY SCUM SCUM" or something like that, and voted him. This sure looks like the absolutely classic distancing attempt of "FoS scum buddy, vote townie".

He was the only person left who I had a scummy read on. The others were dead.

You had a scum read on Peabody, based on Pine's flip. You had even voted for Peabody at one point based on said scum read. However, I don't see anything about you remembering a scum read on Peabody during day 3. Crazy was certainly not the only player alive you had suspected.

And it wasn't outdated per se, that was the wrong way of putting it. You added nothing new, contributed nothing for day 3 at all. You just said "here is stuff I already said in my first post of the game, let's have a lynch". Definitely not pro-town, and completely void of scum hunting. Town doesn't actually know who scum is, and therefore needs to put forth effort to find them. You already knew crazy was scum, so you didn't really have to go in depth to find anything. You just knew, so you bused based on that. Beyond the entry posts you made, which were quite good, you've done painfully little scum hunting.

I am eagerly awaiting scum hunting and cases from DRK and Ranger, as they are clearly the town players who will be setting the precedent for today.

[ICEninja]

'Obviously Quilford doesn't have any real points on me.'
You're pathetic.

So you're trying to hide the fact that you don't have any valid points against me with ad hominem. Great.

Still waiting on the 2 obvtowns.

[ICEninja]

Valern, I realize that I am the only one of us 3 who is "leaving my options open", but I am simply being honest. If i was lynched today, I would flip town and I have no doubt whatsoever that you and Quilford will be at each other's throats to win for your side. Based on the current lineup, I know I am not scum. I'm almost positive DRK is not scum. I'm fairly confident Ranger is not scum. I'm not sure about you. I think Quilford is scum.

Obviously, I'm going to see him lynched today. By the unlikelyhood that the game isn't over, You're the next most likely answer. It is neither scummy nor bad play to be "leaving my options open". Instead, I'd be lying if I said I thought you town. If the game doesn't end tonight, I'd simply vote you tomorrow based on process of elimination, which is most of the reason why you're voting me anyway.

also just watch ice place down his vote now that you've placed down yours

Since you are probably going to be today's lynch, barring DRK suddenly thinking I'm town, this is obviously the correct move. You trying to make it look like a scummy action does not make it a scummy action. I'm pretty sure you're scum.

Vote Quilford

.

The ball is in your court, DRK.

[ICEninja]

Either Valern is a severely misguided townie or is doing a scum gambit in effort to have me lynched tomorrow. I'm leaning towards misguided townie, but it's hard to be sure.

I think those vote counts say Valern is scum.

You need to say a

lot

more than that.

[ICEninja]

you mean like this?

The situations were so completely and radically different, so no. Not like this. You distanced from a scum buddy. He was agreeing with a wagon.

ICE later goes onto say that his vote on EA was all trying to get us out of RVS, but considering that AMP was already voting for EA and the fact that the bolded sentences don't really point to that conclusion, I think ICE was merely trying to bandwagon.

Seriously. Go read the game up to that point. If you can think of a better reason to vote someone based on the information we had at the time, then please show it to me. It was a serious vote in that it wasn't based on someone's name, avatar, random.org, or something else equally useless. No votes placed in the first few pages are as serious as a vote placed to lynch someone on page 10. The fact that you're pushing this is

ridiculous

.

This entire post seems to be about easing out of the EA wagon and onto Lucresia

I was never really on an "EA wagon", as there were never very many votes on him. I simply prompted him to action, and which point he got very grumpy indeed. He is an unpleasant person to play with. It is not at all against my character (alignment neutral) to point out when someone is being unpleasant to play with. It wasn't a "tension breaker" or any crap like that. He was just getting on my nerves.

Of course I was talking about the Lucresia wagon, as it was the wagon that had the most merit at that point in time. Was I convinced she was scum? Absolutely not. Was there potential for it? Sure. Worth the comment. This says nothing of my alignment.

Empty promise; there was never any meta analysis.

It was no longer necessary. Plus, this wouldn't be the first time town-ICE has promised to read someone's meta and never followed through with it. It's a lot of work to do correctly, as you obviously didn't do when you did your little meta-dirt-throwing.

I'm terrible as scum. I'll admit it. So when you go look at the wagons placed on scum-ICE in those games, they're more or less valid, save Javert's case against me in my more recent scum game. I was squirming under pressure of people who had reasons to vote me. This game, people were voting me for either garbage reasons (Valern) or non existent reasons (Trendall and Romanus). I've never in my mafiascum career had a wagon that bad thrown on me before, so you can't make meta comparisons to things that haven't happened.

And I'll be damned if you went through all of my town games to confirm that I don't make such posts. You just found what you wanted in my scum games and posted it.

Terrible dirt throwing, and meaningless when trying to examine my alignment.

Another empty promise.

Funny, you must have missed post 170 when I followed through on that promise. Good job throwing more dirt on me that is MEANINGLESS.

Anyone noticing a trend here of him trying to make me look bad via ways that mean nothing about alignment?

I'm also interested in that GreyICE was pushing Valern so hard, but pulls a flip and says that I am scum now. Take a look at the ISO linked above; you'll see that despite ICE saying she has more points against me, it certainly doesn't look like it.

I actually do invite people to read said ISO. I make it very clear during day 3 that I found Valern's day 1 play to be horribly horribly scummy. It was. His play improved after that.

I'm also not lurker-tunneling, I've been one of the most active players in this game so far and have made cases against a large number of players. My case against Valern day 1 was solid, and I tried to push that very hard. Once his play started to improve, I started to push other players.

Of course you are. Strange, considering how much you bring up against him in your ISO.

I obviously don't think Valern is going to flip scum because you are our last scum. Sure I have a lot to suspect Valern about, but you're a lot scummier right now. I think Valern is town right now simply because I think there are only 3 scum. 2 of them have flipped, and the other will flip as soon as DRK votes you.

Nice try Quilford, but you've got nothing.

[ICEninja]

DRK I know this game isn't your highest priority right now, but deadline is sneaking up on us, and you are the sole force preventing this game from moving forward.

You really only need to put forth one last burst of activity on this game, as if today's lynch doesn't end the game, you're assuredly going to die over the night. And since you've got one more bullet, you hold endgame in your hands should today's lynch be wrong

The decision is yours. Just be aware that time is pressing, and we're all waiting on you.

[ICEninja]

So, Ice, what's your case on me?

My biggest reason for voting you is your voting patterns. They're strongly aligned with what a scum power role would do to bus doomed goon mates.

I'm extremely confident DRK is town, and have had a solid town read on Ranger for a majority of the game, so I'm about 95% confident that the remaining scum is between yourself and Valern, and the voting patterns just make more sense for you to be scum.

I've mentioned a lot about the specifics of it in my past several posts, so there really is no reason for me to repeat myself.

Additional reasons would be some of the things I mentioned in post 406. Your play shortly after replacing in was somewhat scummy. Also, your presence during day 3 was nonexistent. Finally, your recent poor reasons for voting me along with throwing dirt on me that says nothing about my alignment doesn't really track with your town meta. From a quick read of some of your town games, you're a decently solid player and pro-town presence. Better than you have been this game, anyway, which could indicate a different alignment.

[ICEninja]

Come on DRK...

[ICEninja]

Valern, let's suppose I get lynched today. I assure you I will flip town. Then what? You probably will die as a result, and then if you're town we lose. Quit being so stubborn. I have a quite valid case against Quilford, and my points defending myself from your case are quite good too. How does my voting history match up with scum PR? Sure if we had a scum PR flip and we're assuming the last scum to be a goon, then your VCA indicates me as scum. Just look at Quilford's votes on scum. They're horrible, and so painfully obviously busing goons.

DRK, at the time of this posting, we've got 1 day and 4 hours until deadline. You've contributed nothing so far today, and this really isn't fair to us.

[ICEninja]

give me some examples of games you've seen in which these patterns are evident

I'm not going to spend hours of my time researching something to prove anything to you, the point is self evident. Scum PRs benefit from busing goon allies. If DRK requests this as well, I'll find one or two of my games where this has happened, but I assure you it is a waste of time.

also voting patterns should point to valern-scum as you so nicely pointed out some time back

Yes slightly, but less so. Remember that crazy self hammered before scumValern would have been given the chance to bus him, whereas you were already on the inevitable wagon. Also, Valern's inHim vote was worlds better than yours. This is why I'll suspect Valern second should your lynch somehow not end the game, but I doubt we'll end up there.

how does this mean I'm scum

You lurked crazy hard the day you bused a scum buddy. This doesn't need explaining why that benefits a scum motivation more than it benefits a town motivation.

where have I 'thrown dirt on you'? specific examples please

I just devoted an entire post to this VERY recently. It is fairly pathetic that you had to ask this.

lawl, cautious language.

It is, admittingly, my weakest point. It is a supplemental piece of evidence that is meant to support the case, not carry it.

If you think my meta "could" point to me being a different alignment, you shouldn't be voting me based on that

If I was voting you for this reason, then this would make sense. However, this point is the least of

supporting

reasons for my vote. I made it very clear that the voting patterns are the primary reason for my vote. Statements like this are called straw man defenses, as you took the weakest part of my case and said I should not be voting you based on the lacking area of said weakest reason. It is a logical fallacy.

Furthermore, you have done no actual defending here. Asking your attacker to "point out examples of this", which you did twice, is not defense at all. Asking how something points to you being scum when something clearly does is not defense. All you're doing is distracting town from the point that you have no defense, save for the weakest point of my case.

You're scum, you're caught, and you know it.

DRK, you obviously have no intention of finishing this game correctly so just hammer him and either win or be NKed so you can be done with this game.

[ICEninja]

Hey, I read stuff, stop complaining. I apologize if wanting to vote correctly doesn't qualify as "finishing this game correctly."

I was referring to reading everything out of order and out of context. If you've been reading stuff in context, which it seems you've been doing, then I retract my impatient statement.

Whether or not I shoot tonight (assuming the game makes it that far) will be dependent on how strong my reads are. If I can get a strong town read on one of the players, I'm going to shoot the other if we lynch wrong today (and will announce as such).

This is so close to word for to to what I was going to suggest during twilight that its creepy.

Deadline is less than 14 hours from the time of this post.

[ICEninja]

I don't care how close we are to deadline, ICE trying to rush DRK's decision is scummy.

I am a deadline conscious player. Every game I've been in that has come close to the deadline, I've made noise about it. I've been suspected multiple times because of how jumpy I get around deadlines.

This is why I like longer game days than 1 week.

Valern, seriously. Did you see his response to my case? How is he still town? How??? Because he reacted at Erratus making a face? That didn't necessarily mean anything, you're just assuming what it meant.

[ICEninja]

Lucresia claimed hella early, and as that was discussed at the time that's probably a towntell.

I've actually recently been in a game where scum who was under only mild pressure claimed during day 1, and was acquitted most of the rest of the game for it. While I'm inclined to believe that this is more likely for town to do than scum, I would say only marginally as it benefits town nothing from doing so. Scum tend to break harder under pressure. I know I do when I'm scum.

There's an ongoing I've been watching in which Lucresia did the exact same lurk-a-ton-and-get-replaced thing, and while that slot hadn't flipped last time I checked on that ongoing it's enough to make me think her lurky play wasn't an alignment tell.

So you're bringing up something that no one's really talked about, and said it's a neutral tell. Hmm. Irrelevant at best.

Quilford came in and singled out Crazy and Pine for being scum at a time when Crazy really particularly being suspected.

"Slightly leaning scum" on crazy (scum) and "SCUMMITY SCUM SCUM" on Pine (town). I've already discussed the "FoS scum buddy, vote townie" tell that isn't by any means outdated, I still see scum doing it. It's just classic distancing.

That doesn't say distancing/bussing to me, because as scum it's generally a bad idea to bus your scumbuddies unnecessarily.

Since when is calling a scum buddy "slightly leaning scum" busing? It is distancing. When he comes in later and votes his buddy, who is certainly facing death, for the same reasons he called him "slightly leaning scum", it then becomes necessary busing. I agree that it is generally a bad idea to bus a scumbuddy needlessly, but it isn't at all a bad idea to distance from them so long as you don't get caught doing it.

Crazy quite possibly tried to save Inhim at the last minute by jumping on to my Quilford bandwagon (as DRK pointed out), which, even if Quilford was scum, certainly wasn't a smart move given that whatever scum is left is probably a PR (ie, Crazy would have been sacrificing a PR to save a goon).

This is the only part of scumQuilford that doesn't add up. I'm not sure why he did this. However, this one piece of evidence is a smaller town indication than crazy denying you the ability to bus by self hammering, so I believe that he is still much more likely scum than you.

You have been defensive most of the day today, whereas Quilford has been more aggressive (and as I believe I stated earlier today, I think too much time spent on self-defense is a scumtell.)

Quilford completely failed at defending himself from my case against him. That is simply because he cannot defend himself against such valid points, He instead used misdirection to attempt to hide the fact that he didn't defend himself from anything. "Show me examples" and "how does that make me scum" (when it obviously does, no explanation needed) isn't a pro-town way to defend yourself from a case.

Valern, didn't you just recently call me scum because I speculated on night kills and was thinking about what scum did and such? And now you're doing it? Have you even LOOKED at my case again Quilford? It is damn solid.

[ICEninja]

Valern, deadline is in 2 and a half hours. Can you hammer if DRK doesn't? Even if you truly believe I'm scum, there's no way you're getting me lynched with Quilford alive anyway, and a no kill hurts town very badly.

[ICEninja]

Well. Damn. That sucks.

I'm definitely leaning Valern over Ranger, but there are a couple good reasons why Valern isn't scum. I was just so sure of Quilford.

I'm going to have to think about this one I guess.

[ICEninja]

Also, please don't make any hasty votes on me, whichever one of you is town. That will result in scum voting me for the lose. This should go without saying, but Valern has been over-convinced of my scumminess.

[ICEninja]

A massprod is being sent out. This doesn't count against prod rules.

I never received a prod, and no one else has responded to it. Did it get sent out correctly?

Mod Edit: Opps, didn't see that.

[ICEninja]

I realize this looks bad for me. I really was hinging everything on Quilford being scum in order to win this game, alas the effort ended up hurting town badly.

I do have to point out though that it just doesn't make sense for a scum PR to be on every townie wagon and on zero scum wagons. That just doesn't track at all. If a scum PR was dead and we're assuming the last one to be a goon then yeah, it would be absolutely awful for me, but the fact is even scum as bad as I am (and I am terrible at it indeed) knows not to push on

every

townie wagon and

none

of the scum wagons. This isn't WIFOM either, because scum clearly have the intention of being perceived as town, and scum PRs doubly so.

Interestingly enough, I had intentions of hammering both of the scum players, but was beaten to the punch. While this is, and I admit it, WIFOM, it is still a valid consideration: wouldn't scum ICE have made a bigger effort to actually have hammered a scum buddy instead of showing uncertainty and hesitating? Particularly on the Crazy wagon where EA was pushing for the hammer very hard.

I'm still thinking Ranger is probably town, despite having a strong possibility of busing 2 targets and having slid under the radar for most of this game, as Valern's day 1 play was ridiculously scummy.

However, I'm not positive I'm going to be able to convince whichever of you is town that I am town as well. I guess I'll do my best.

I'll do my best to put together a comprehensive case against Valern, and do my best to show why he's more likely to be scum than i am.

[ICEninja]

I will be setting aside time tomorrow to made a case.

Ice insisted a couple of times yesterday that he didn't think Crazy would have self-hammered without the last scum on the wagon. This clearly wasn't true, but I think this point still looks pretty good for Valern. Since Ice brought this point up, it doesn't really apply to him.

I used this as a point to lynch Quilford over Valern, but since the situation fits both of us, you can't really use it on one of us without the other. Just because I pointed it out doesn't change much, really.

Valern, I don't really expect you to contribute anything more to this game than you already have, but if you're town then it's worth at least looking over Ranger without bias.

[ICEninja]

Alright, Here is the stuff about Valern's day 1 play that was scummy, and also my defense will follow. Further analysis of Valern's play past day 1 will follow later.

His vote for me was just terrible. He later justifies his vote with this:

ICE is scummy because he went into SURVIVAL MODE ZOMG the moment he got some pressure on him. This is not a towny reaction to pressure. A towny reaction to being voted is to more or less ignore it (unless that person is voting them for scummy reasons) and continue to concentrate on scumhunting.

As I responded shortly after:

This paragraph is so bad I don't even know where to begin.
1) Lucresia went in to survival mode way harder than I did, yet you unvoted her.
2) A townie reaction to being voted for reasons as bad as the ones put on me is NOT to ignore them.
3) The votes on me are awful, and I have every right to attack them.
4) I do happen to be concentrating on scum hunting, because I'm nearly positive that there is scum on my wagon somewhere.

What i posted here is still valid. He was on all 3 early bandwagons, and late to boot. If you take my word for my alignment, all 3 of these early day 1 bandwagons he pushed were on townies. This is even worse now that we know the flips.

Valern also seemed to have weird reads on Lucresia. I get the vibe that he knew she was town by the way he posted during day 1, but I'm having a hard time qualifying this read. However, he definitely did seem to know Quilford would flip town despite my fairly solid case on him, and equally despite Quilford's severe lack of defense.

Valern played day 4 perfectly. He pushed my lynch, and declared Quilford town. If Quilford gets lynched, he gets town cred and has an easier time pushing my lynch. If I get lynched instead of Quilford, suddenly I flip town and Valern goes back and says "Oh wow, I guess he must have been right after all!" and wins the game with the Quilford lynch, especially considering how much clout there was on his lynch.

I'd also like to note that DRK was the NK. Now obviously she was unlynchable, but she had the more solid stance that I'm town (at the end of day 4) compared to Ranger. Scum Valern would obviously take the player most interested in my lynch in to lylo. Scum ICE would have pushed harder for Valern being scum day 4 to convince DRK to shoot Valern.

Additionally, most of the reason for lynching me today seems to be about my not having been on any of the scum wagons. Recall that I was the one who asked inHim to claim, obviously showing intents to hammer. I also showed intents to hammer crazy, as well. Both hammers fell too quickly for me to do the honors. That isn't my fault.

While it isn't that strong of a defense, it's something: most of the now dead townies had a town read on me.

Finally, I apparently got a lot of town cred for accidentally pointing out that I have no night activity when I was prodded. Everyone seems to have forgotten about that.

[ICEninja]

Weird, I just noticed that I never pointed out that I was prodded after day 1 started. I thought I had pointed it out. Turns out I PMed the question to Fenhl asking why I was prodded instead of posting it in-game. I'm pretty sure it's against the rules for me to confirm this, though.

And since Valern asked that, that right there is good enough reason for me to think he's town.

And yes, I was horribly inactive during days 2 and 3. To Eastern Orthodox Christians, Pascha (Easter) time is the busiest of the year. Notice that I purposely didn't /in any other games until several days after Eater was over. I have since picked up my activity and /inned as a hydra with Yoshi.

However, you're right. Valern was prodded, and probably hadn't talked in a QT. He's town. You're the last scum left.

Vote RangeroftheNorth

Pity there's no chance Valern will see the light, so looks like you win scum. Well played, going without suspicion for so long.

Valern, your reads sucked this game.

Sorry, town.

[ICEninja]

Exactly as I said. If he's scum, he deserves to win.

He did lurk pretty well, though. He flew under the radar, he bused just enough but not too much.

You a roleblocker as I thought?

[ICEninja]

I really had no hope, Valern tunneled on me so hard despite having been quite wrong about his day 1 tunneling. Once Ranger pointed out that Valern said he was prodded on his first post, I instantly knew town had lost because there wasn't any hope at all of me convincing Valern that I was town, and that was simply all I needed to know Valern was town.

I actually wish I noticed that gem earlier in the game. It could have saved us. Too bad it was scum that found the biggest town tell.

I'm a little disappointed in myself, though. This is two games in a row where I simply wrote off scum as obvtown. I think I seriously need to reconsider some of my scum hunting.

[ICEninja]

Valern, I believe you need to eat your hat. For the third time this game.

I'll have to eat mine too, though, on account of Quilford.

And damnit, I really wish I never pointed that out. I didn't even realize that it would tell people that I was a VT when I made that post. It was a careless mistake fueled by irritation at being prodded. I'm virtually never prodded.

I probably would have been a much better player at a different time of the year. I wasn't kidding about the time around Easter being absolutely nuts.

[ICEninja]

I feel like ICEscum is capable and sneaky enough to do that.

God no. I'm never kidding when I say I'm awful scum. I've been the day 1 lynch every time.

[ICEninja]

I'm pretty good at not getting lynched, when I'm town. Unfortunately, I keep making it to lylo and screwing things up.

In fact, now that I think about it, I almost never win if I'm taken to lylo. I'm always wrong or the lynch. Only once did I get to a 3-scum-left-lylo, called out the entire scum team, and won. That was good days for ICEninja.

Alas, my losing streak continues. Once upon a time I had a positive win/loss ratio.