Mini 1138 - Candy Zoo Mafia (Game Over!)

[Kalofer]

Very interesting theory hoppster, I'm not telling you anything though so yeah whatever.

[Twistedspoon]

LOOK WHAT I FOUND 6 POSTS ABOVE YOURS, TWISTEDSPOON!
I've actually reached the continuous quoting limit I've been quoting my unanswered question so many times.

does it matter why?

A townie wouldn't care as long as they know they wouldn't be myslynched, and I wouldn't want to give scum the satisfaction of saying why so
That, and I honestly don't remember which post of your it was that made me reconsider

[Hoppster]

Very interesting theory hoppster, I'm not telling you anything though so yeah whatever.

This sounds like confirmation to me.

LOOK WHAT I FOUND 6 POSTS ABOVE YOURS, TWISTEDSPOON!
I've actually reached the continuous quoting limit I've been quoting my unanswered question so many times.

does it matter why?

A townie wouldn't care as long as they know they wouldn't be myslynched, and I wouldn't want to give scum the satisfaction of saying why so
That, and I honestly don't remember which post of your it was that made me reconsider

No, I just find it scummy that you dropped a very persistent attack on me. I want to know why, as perhaps there is a reasonable explanation for it. From your answer, it would seem not.

Also, why did it take you so long to even acknowledge my point?

It also ASTOUNDS ME how you only answer one of the issues I wanted you to answer in my post though.

USING ONLY WHAT IS IN YOUR PM

:
a) Do you have goodies to steal? Y/N
b) Do evil people want your goodies? Y/N, then a reason/clarification if necessary. 'Maybe' is not an acceptable Y/N answer.

@ Twistedspoon: Opinions on Kalofer (specifically regarding recent posts), kthx.

[Twistedspoon]

1)I, myself have no ingredients; I am a zoo visitor
2)I have no goodies. looking back at my role PM though, it does explicitly say that I can make something useful out of goodies

Kalofer? seems rational enough. Knows theory too

[Hoppster]

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I have a compelling and near-irrefutable case to prove to you that Twistedspoon is scum, or at the very best, a townie lying about his PR.

And I found a way to break the game open.

Do evil people want to know your goodies? Y/N

Just answer and say nothing more. Everyone has to do this.

This is the question that you may remember vezok asking early on. Now, imagine that you have Twistedspoon's Role PM, which he claims to be along the lines of this:

I am a

zoo visitor

I don't have any ingredients
My alignment is town though. My win condition is when all threats to the town are eliminated

Each night I can target another player to visit. If I target a candy animal I can take their goodies.
Apparently If i get enough of the goodies I can make something from them, I don't know what yet.

He then clarifies on this further when I prompt him:

USING ONLY WHAT IS IN YOUR PM

:
a) Do you have goodies to steal? Y/N
b) Do evil people want your goodies? Y/N, then a reason/clarification if necessary. 'Maybe' is not an acceptable Y/N answer.

1)I, myself have no ingredients; I am a zoo visitor
2)I have no goodies. looking back at my role PM though, it does explicitly say that I can make something useful out of goodies

So! Imagine you are a town-aligned PR with the ability to steal goodies - BUT, IMPORTANTLY, NO GOODIES YOURSELF. You see somebody asking: "Do evil people want to know your goodies?" Now, this puts you in a bit of a conundrum. Obviously, you can't answer this. Saying 'Yes' would be lying; 'No' would be

strongly implying

that you have goodies, just that evil people don't want to steal them. Twistedspoon shows awareness of this implication with his recent clarification (Quote 3/4, point b/2) - when asked the same question that vezok asked (with a bit of elaboration from me), he replies that he has no goodies.

So, there can be no doubt that he misunderstood the implication of answering 'No' to vezok's question (Quote 1). So, what are the options when presented with vezok's question?

(A)

You can't say 'Yes' as that is lying; 'No' is also lying in a way as it implies you have goodies; 'I HAVE NO GOODIES' is a flat-out way of identifying yourself as a PR or at least drawing unwarranted attention to yourself. So, what should you do? Then you think: assuming there are other Town PRs, what are they going to do?


This then sparks the basic logic process:

(i)

I am a Town Power Role.

(ii)

I have no goodies to steal.

(iii)

It is likely that all other Town PRs have no goodies to steal. (this excludes the possibility of Candy Animals with powers)

(iv)

Therefore it is a fair presumption that those who answer vezok's question (see Quote 1) are not PRs (having said that, see

iii

for the possible errors in this).

(v)

Regardless of whether

iv

is accurate, it is a logical conclusion that those who DO answer vezok's question are NOT (non-candy animal) PRs, and those who do not answer vezok's question are, probability-wise, more likely to be a town PR (again, see

iii

for possible incorrect assumptions). Of course there could be some cautious town non-PRs who didn't answer the question, and some people may not have had the opportunity to answer it, but the odds of each person who didn't answer it being a PR has improved.

(vi)

It is therefore bad for people to answer vezok's question.


Although it's simple in my head, I'm aware that I've overcomplicated it above in my attempt to explain it. So, a simplification:

(I)

I am a Town Power Role.

(II)

I have no goodies to steal.

(III)

Identifying who has goodies could therefore possibly identify Power Roles.

(IV)

Therefore identifying who has goodies is bad.


My point is this: it would be fairly simple for anybody who was town-aligned with Twisted's role to grasp this logic. And thus, when I asked people not to answer vezok's question, they would not have any protests. However, Twisted's response:

hoppster is acting all suspiciousy.

As somebody who would KNOW that answering vezok's question is bad for themselves (see

A

), and also bad for town (see

I-IV

) this does not make sense. Conclusion: he didn't know answering vezok's question was bad for town, because he doesn't have the Role PM he claims to have, because he's scum.



On other semi-related points:

• You still haven't answered my question about how you dropped that 'HOPPSTER IS SCUM' thing.
  
• You think that Kalofer's recent posts are rational?

[Twistedspoon]

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I have a compelling and near-irrefutable case to prove to you that Twistedspoon is scum, or at the very best, a townie lying about his PR.

just read the top part so far

It can't be irrefutable since I know I'm not lying nor am I scum.

what'll you say when you find out I'm both town and the role I've claimed?

[carrys on reading]

[Twistedspoon]

On other semi-related points:

• You still haven't answered my question about how you dropped that 'HOPPSTER IS SCUM' thing.
  
• You think that Kalofer's recent posts are rational?

1) I have as well as I could
2) the part where Kalofer considers all eventualities and flip results I find to be rational

[Twistedspoon]

Also, the though processes of yours are quite generalised.

In an Ideal world we may all think as you do hoppster, but sadly, such is not the case

My thought processes:
1) I am a townie
2) I am probably the VT role (this was before I saw the sample role PM, and as such I assumed Zoo visitor was the VT role, and that most townies would have my role)
3) After reading the sample role PM i thought I might be a PR, but someone else might share my role too
4) I then realise that my role might work like a cop, as I could see who is a candy animal during the night phase (I'm unsure if this would work though. I might not be notified of the ingredients I steal or if I am successful)
5) to protect my PR status I must act as though I know little of the candy stealing mechanic and act as if those who know more than the sample role PM are suspicious. Thus, I am unlikely to be a PR due to my little knowledge shown of candy mechanics
6)PR will live, make good items and maybe even act as a cop (this part goes wrong when you guys put me on L-1)

[ToastyToast]

so you didn't consider yourself to be a PR? Thats confusing.
@hoppster: I agree with your thought process and regret answering vezok's question, but how does the question result in suspicions on TS but not vezok?

[Nobody Special]

How can someone think they are a VT and not know? Good God, TS, you're just digging yourself deeper and deeper.

[Hoppster]

what'll you say when you find out I'm both town and the role I've claimed?

I'll let you know if it happens.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Hoppster

Wow, Kalofer, gonna bother to explain? Is that pure OMGUS?

naaaaah I'm doing it for the lulz

Very interesting theory hoppster, I'm not telling you anything though so yeah whatever.

These are all rational according to you, Twistedspoon?

5) to protect my PR status I must act as though I know little of the candy stealing mechanic and act as if those who know more than the sample role PM are suspicious. Thus, I am unlikely to be a PR due to my little knowledge shown of candy mechanics

So you were happy to put other possible PRs under suspicion to save yourself?


@ Toasty: Well, I'm conflicted on vezok. The fact that mb53, Amrun and yourself answered it makes me think there may be some conceivable angle vezok is coming from. I'm not sure how vezok would know to ask a question that at least three other people would answer 'yes' to if he were scum. Having said that, I'm not sure why town would assume such a question would break a game open, so I'm unsure.

[Twistedspoon]

So you were happy to put other possible PRs under suspicion to save yourself?

no, the idea was to put mafia under suspicion

@NS: do you just pop in to this topic every time you think I'm exploitable? anyways, I thought zoo visitor was the VT role before I read the flavour.

Visitor seemed average enough.

Anyways, I'm only telling you what I thought

[mb53]

@ Toasty: Well, I'm conflicted on vezok. The fact that mb53, Amrun and yourself answered it makes me think there may be some conceivable angle vezok is coming from. I'm not sure how vezok would know to ask a question that at least three other people would answer 'yes' to if he were scum. Having said that, I'm not sure why town would assume such a question would break a game open, so I'm unsure.

I forgot/can't believe this wasn't explained earlier >_>
Sample role PM doesn't have the part about stealing goodies.

Not sure what to think about hoppster's case. I shall think it over and post on it tonight/tomorrow.

[Hoppster]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Hoppster

Wow, Kalofer, gonna bother to explain? Is that pure OMGUS?

naaaaah I'm doing it for the lulz

Very interesting theory hoppster, I'm not telling you anything though so yeah whatever.

These are all rational according to you, Twistedspoon?

*poke*

So you were happy to put other possible PRs under suspicion to save yourself?

no, the idea was to put mafia under suspicion

BUT YOU HAVE MORE INFORMATION THAN THE SAMPLE PM, YOU KNOW YOU'RE TOWN - YOU KNOW YOU'RE A TOWN PR FURTHER TO THIS.

Why is it then impossible for other people who appear to have more information than the sample PM to then also be town PRs?

[Twistedspoon]

Why is it then impossible for other people who appear to have more information than the sample PM to then also be town PRs?

it isn't

they could Be PRs, but if they're prepared to say they know more than a candy animal about ingredient taking mechanics, then they've already claimed PR anyways :/

the kalofer part? I can't vouch for him, but this setup is very mysterious and I'm sure he has his reasons. The parts I found rational were elsewhere anyways. Why not ask Kalofer why he voted for you again, like you've done with me

srsly, why are you asking me about kalofer anyways?

[Hoppster]

they could Be PRs, but if they're prepared to say they know more than a candy animal about ingredient taking mechanics, then they've already claimed PR anyways :/

the kalofer part? I can't vouch for him, but this setup is very mysterious and I'm sure he has his reasons. The parts I found rational were elsewhere anyways. Why not ask Kalofer why he voted for you again, like you've done with me

srsly, why are you asking me about kalofer anyways?

OHOHOHOHO.

So when Kalofer and Hazard have mysterious reasons for anything, you're attitude is "THEY HAVE THEIR REASONS." Are you giving them a free pass because they both were defending you (at the time of these mysterious reasons) on your side? Yet when I have mysterious reasons, you're all "SCUMSCUMSCUM"?

You're also very touchy when I'm asking you about Kalofer.


My comprehensive post here shows how it was pro-town, and also LOGICAL, to prevent further speculation. Perhaps outing 1 PR, but saving possibly several.

And what would it matter if they've outed themselves as a PR? You would attack them for that?

[Twistedspoon]

I'm not giving Kalofer a free pass for the posts you quoted. I'm not giving him one at all

I advised you ask him again for your information; I know nothing of it

But i did like some other parts of kalofers posts

why would I attack someone I believe to have the same role as me? If I believed them to be mafia, then sure, but otherwise why would I?

[ToastyToast]

Hmmm, perhaps you KNOW that you have the same role

[Twistedspoon]

Hmmm, perhaps you KNOW that you have the same role

same role as who?

[ToastyToast]

Kalofer/Hazard

[Twistedspoon]

Kalofer/Hazard

I have seen no indication of Kalofer's role (although I haven't been looking out for anyone's)

The only roles I know of are my own and candy animal

I believe hazard might have hinted that he also has the zoo visitor role though :/

[Kalofer]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Nobody Special

[Hoppster]

why would I attack someone I believe to have the same role as me? If I believed them to be mafia, then sure, but otherwise why would I?

CAUGHT YOU CAUGHT YOU CAUGHT YOU SCUM!!!!

@ Twisted: Any

inkling

of what Hazard's reasons are? Y/N.

how can I?
I don't have his Role PM

[Kalofer]

why would I attack someone I believe to have the same role as me? If I believed them to be mafia, then sure, but otherwise why would I?

CAUGHT YOU CAUGHT YOU CAUGHT YOU SCUM!!!!

@ Twisted: Any

inkling

of what Hazard's reasons are? Y/N.

how can I?
I don't have his Role PM

????????

Lol hoppster you're funny

[Twistedspoon]

@Hoppster:

?

My suspicions of who is mafia are stronger than my suspicions of who are PRs if that's what you're implying

the hazard part? Even now I don't know for sure If he's a zoo visitor, and at the time of my post, I don't remember him hinting at being a zoo visitor