Mini 1137: Long Overdue Mafia [Game Over!]

[tarsonisocelot]

I'm inclined to think that pappums' overreaction is just a result of being constantly trolled by fitz. It's not the overt kind with a lot of cussing, though. It's the gnawing, nagging kind, a lot of little jabs here and there that alone don't mean much but together get pretty insulting. He clearly has a low opinion of everyone who is in any way against him, and he doesn't mind voicing it. To me it looks like more of a "stop being an asshole" type thing that you get on all forums, not just mafia ones.

Well, if he didn't actually look at those posts (I didn't really look because I was doing something non-game-related at the time), then fitz hounding him for not answering is completely justified.

In that context, pappum's overreaction certainly looks scummy.

I actually also took the "f*** you" post as a reaction to fitz - I know I would probably have reacted similarly regardless of my alignment. I think we perhaps come from different backgrounds if havingfitz' protracted rageout over the gambit/lie seemed more of a normal emotional reaction than rat's "f*** you" following a fair amount of provocation. I'm not saying that rat is innocent, just that he isn't ringing as many "fake emotion" bells as fitz is for me right now.
I wish that rat had stayed as active as during the gambit/lie afterwards, his period of inactivity doesn't really look good.
That said I really dislike the way fitz is now trying to make everyone agree with him by essentially attacking everyone who doesn't immediately follow him.

[Jahudo]

Pine is not looking townish to me. I question how he is so confident about Lynch All Liars being tried and true.

And LAL is tried and true. Gambiting like you did holds zero benefit for Town.

How many games have you seen with a gambit lie?

I'm usually very, very against speedlynches, but the day has already fallen into bickering and recursion. Let's get done with this.

He seems to be using that theory confidence to justify not giving other reads today, except for fitz which doesn't look natural yet.

For the record, Fitz is a moderately-distant second on my scum list. I'd be satisfied with a Fitz lynch, though I haven't put the effort into his case that I have with PR.

Why is he also a suspect? The town is strongly divided along these two bandwagons and I am wondering how someone is able to support both without looking hypocritical in a theory stance or opportunistic in arguing for a chain lynch without sufficient reasoning. Where is your reasoning.

FoS: Pine

[P.T. Barnum]

Tomorrow I'll cover the players I'd prefer to be lynched. It's frustrating to have one's top two suspects replace out, so this game is hard to get into. I really just need to reread. Here's at least something, my stance on the current two wagons:
1. The fitz wagon is nonsense, as far as I'm concerned. The only thing I have ever disliked about his play (and it was a significant strike against him) was his suggestion of andrew as a policy lynch. The more andrew posts, the less wary I am of that. He's been posting and responding very much like I'd expect him to, and he's been scumhunting, which is more than I can say for other players. His post #272 is a particularly good one against pappum, whose claim that being called a liar is a personal attack is baloney.
2. That being said, I'm not sold on pappum's scumminess. For one thing, I don't necessarily disagree with his gambit. It's steered this town in a good direction. I'd much rather lynch voided, as I said before, who hasn't really done anything since his wagon. Nonetheless, I have some problems with pappums's behavior

after

he revealed his gambit:

all right folks, here's the dealy-o. to believe that i am scum, you would have to believe that scum would be willing to pull a suicidal move like that and at the same time repeatedly tell people not to mislynch and tell everyone your pm said you were sane (giving you no option to claim that your sanity was not assured after the supposed vm townflip).

His would not be the first gambit that the mafia ever faked. What makes this scummy is that pappum's is insistent on reminding the town that because he played that gambit, he can't be scum. The fact is, his stunt has bought him a lot of leverage, which he is using transparently.
Secondly, I don't like how terse his tone is when discussing with havingfitz. His rudeness is over-the-top, particularly "Fuck you" and calling his posts "rehashed bullshit." It comes across as being a little faked.

I'm not voting him yet, as I need a reraed (as I said before).

[Pine]

I'll put together a full response for you soon, Jahudo. What you're asking for is time-consuming.

When I initially had to catch up, I decided to start with just my big read and let the little stuff slide and have it come out naturally. People don't apparently like massive walls on this site, and it sucks to sum up 14-15 pages all at once.

I've kinda forgotten to string it out over the last couple pages I've been around.

PEdit: PTB's response regarding scum gambits is dead-on.

[Voidedmafia]

P.T: Admittedly, I'm focusing solely on Pappums until his lynch. That's not to say I don't have any other suspects (Cecily, for one), but I'm just really sure that Rat is the lynch for today.

Though, I need to also reread, to look for a potential buddy/buddies if he does flip scum. If he flips town, though, that would probably clear Cecily and put Fitz in the spotlight, would it not?

[pappums rat]

i have never said that i, in any way, was cleared from being scum. (i even said that previously in a post when people were saying that i was trying to clear myself). what i was doing in that post was trying to make people question whether scum was more likely to take the course of actions that i did or that fitz did. yeah, wifom, blah blah blah blah blah.

i havent been as active in this game or any other for that matter because i have a lot of shit going on atm, and have replaced out of several that i was in just recently. the only reason i am still in this one is because havingfitz is still alive.

at all the people who keep going 'lal is so awesome, bahahaha!': do you think gambits are the basis for lal, and why is gambiting scummy?

[Pine]

Gambiting isn't scummy when it's on D4 to protect a power role or to get known scum lynched. Done on D1 in order to get someone who (at the time) was a total null read is remarkably scummy.

[havingfitz]

lol at pappums still not doing anything. You ask me for information yet you continue to avoid my recent questions/accusations towards you? Try this, ISO me and seach for idiotking or IK. My wallposts are answering questions, responding to accusations, or pointing out comments/actions I find suspicious. Stop slacking and contribute. Maybe you could start with what your case was on me again? Or reply to my recent posts directed at you.

---

TO...your rationale for suspecting me coupled with your willingness to accept PR's "fuck you" comment is ridiculous. Why would you have made a similar comment towards me? He is my top suspect (though I have provided info on others) and I am

pressuring

him. Is pressuring your top suspect a scumtell? And lets say I'm town....just envision it.....why would I not be more inclined to suspect those pushing my mislynch for what I consider FMPOV to be poor reasons? And my reasons provided in my suspicions towards others are not "Because you are voting me"...I've provided specific examples for pappum AND Cecily and to a lesser degree, IK. IMO you are not bringing anything to this game atm. Please try harder.

---

Jahudo is not making any sense with his unwillingness to acknowledge valid suspicions towards Cecily and pappums and now FOSing someone who actually is making sense with their reads.

---

@void....I can see why a pappum town flip would direct attention towards me. I would hope if he were to flip town that my reasons for voting him stood on their own merit. He has provided plenty of valid suspicions for consideration...if we get it wrong...*it happens. Regardless of his flip however I would say Cecily is still a top lynch candidate tomorrow.

---

@pappums again. Did someone say you thought you were cleared because of your lie? Also,

the only reason i am still in this one is because havingfitz is still alive.

So if I'm lynched you're going to replace out? That's nice...I assume you just want to stick around to make some assinine comment if I am today's lynch and then you'll bail (since I would no longer be in the game).

---

Gambiting isn't scummy when it's on D4 to protect a power role or to get known scum lynched. Done on D1 in order to get someone who (at the time) was a total null read is remarkably scummy.

DING! DING! DING!!!! QFT.

[Jahudo]

Done on D1 in order to get someone who (at the time) was a total null read is remarkably scummy.

Why? Also, no. It sparks discussion and that is always good for town because they start to see connections form.

[Jahudo]

Jahudo is not making any sense with his unwillingness to acknowledge valid suspicions towards Cecily and pappums and now FOSing someone who actually is making sense with their reads.

Why are my suspicions against Cecily invalid?

[havingfitz]

Jahudo is not making any sense with his unwillingness to acknowledge valid suspicions towards Cecily and pappums and now FOSing someone who actually is making sense with their reads.

Why are my suspicions against Cecily invalid?

Upon further ISO, no, they aren't invalid...I just did not recall them. You made them a week and a half ago and left it at that. She did not even warrant an FOS for basically similar things you are voting me for, yet you feel Pine's play does warrant an FOS. That seems a bit off to me. A lot has been said since you voiced your three suspicions and you have had very little to say. Any thoughts on my recent posts re: Cecily? Is Pine more suspicious in your opinion than Cecily? What's up?

[tarsonisocelot]

TO...your rationale for suspecting me coupled with your willingness to accept PR's "fuck you" comment is ridiculous. Why would you have made a similar comment towards me? He is my top suspect (though I have provided info on others) and I am

pressuring

him. Is pressuring your top suspect a scumtell? And lets say I'm town....just envision it.....why would I not be more inclined to suspect those pushing my mislynch for what I consider FMPOV to be poor reasons? And my reasons provided in my suspicions towards others are not "Because you are voting me"...I've provided specific examples for pappum AND Cecily and to a lesser degree, IK. IMO you are not bringing anything to this game atm. Please try harder.

Right now, I would be interested to see either you or rat lynched as there are valid reasons to suspect both of you.
I'm beginning to lean more towards pappum than you as, while the "f*** you" post seemed like it could have been a natural reaction to your needling (I don't mean the fact that you were questioning him, I mean the way you were and the way you were dealing with others), he has now had more than enough time to calm down and post something in answer to the points that have been raised against him.

I've seen and agree with several of your points about PR and Cecily, I'll have to reread your IK posts though.

I dislike the way you seem to view your way of thinking as the only correct way - "You're getting better" as a response to someone who disagreed with you in general agreeing with one of your points - and I also dislike your little insults. They're non-constructive and seem almost designed to elicit a negative emotional response. Are they? If so, why? Do you think we'll post "better" or agree with you more if you act in this manner? If not, why do you continue to do so? Why did you seem to enter some kind of "betrayed mode" for a while after tha gambit/lie was revealed as such?

Pappum: How did you come up with this gambit? What was the intended result (as specifically as possible)? How did you decide who to target/which role to claim? What is your view on the Neighbourizer claim by voided? Why did you let it go on so long?

andrew: Is English your first language? Do you have anything useful to contribute? If so, what is it? Using a text editor with spelling and grammar checking built in to type up your posts might help you to make them more readable and give you some extra time to make sure that what you're saying actually makes sense. If you continue to post in the manner you have been doing, you are not helping the town. As far as I can see the only reason to actively do that is because you are scum. If you aren't scum, act for the good of the town and at least attempt to post coherently.

Pine: How would you analyse Xalxe's play earlier in this game?



I've read the entire thread, but am still processing some parts and, due to real life commitments, am unlikely to be able to do much in the way of exhaustive analysis until the 10th of April if I'm still alive then. I have time to contribute but don't expect walls of analysis until then.

[Pine]

Done on D1 in order to get someone who (at the time) was a total null read is remarkably scummy.

Why? Also, no. It sparks discussion and that is always good for town because they start to see connections form.

There are far, far better ways to start discussion that don't involve extreme risk to a (statistically probable) Townie.

Pine: How would you analyse Xalxe's play earlier in this game?

*sigh* I'll add that to the wall I'm developing regarding the dozen or more pages I missed.

[havingfitz]

TO...what are the valid reason you have/agree with to suspect me?

I do not think my way is the only correct way. I get it wrong all the time and am fine acknowledging that. If the only problem I had with PR was his lie I probably would have moved on to Cecily by now but pappums post-lie play has only added to my suspicions. As for my little digs at others...I am not a patient person...with the game or with players. If people aren't contributing or I don't agree with them I let them know it. I know what my alignment is so I know who is on the right path with their vote and suspicions and if the walls of commentary I have supplied defending my actions/opinions aren't sufficient enough to enlighten them...my frustrations could raise to the surface. I also don't have a lot of patience for people who don't contribute (ex: andrew pl comments early in the game). It's not a tell as it's how I play. And I was betrayed...I believed pappums lie. I was annoyed and unamused when he came clean.

[mikemike778]

P.T: Admittedly, I'm focusing solely on Pappums until his lynch. That's not to say I don't have any other suspects (Cecily, for one), but I'm just really sure that Rat is the lynch for today.

Though, I need to also reread, to look for a potential buddy/buddies if he does flip scum. If he flips town, though, that would probably clear Cecily and put Fitz in the spotlight, would it not?

Why would it clear Cecily ? Because she said that the Rat gambit essentially cleared him in her eyes ? That's pretty naive to think well in that case if Rat is town then Cecily must be as well ??? Naive or a scum player looking to protect their own anyway.

Gambiting isn't scummy when it's on D4 to protect a power role or to get known scum lynched. Done on D1 in order to get someone who (at the time) was a total null read is remarkably scummy.

What do you mean by get someone ? Get someone lynched ? - he expressly stated do not quick lynch and then came out in time to prevent the lynch, that's not attempting to get them lynched and there's no reason for anyone to think that ... unless they discussed using a fake gambit to push for a quick mislynch in a QT pre-game that is. To me it seems that Rat is looking too easy a target for scum players to attack - using the Lynch all Liars policy as a convenient vehicle to force a lynch. To me - Fitz's early play reads scum and that's a better reason to use my vote that just voting because of the gambit.

I dislike the way you seem to view your way of thinking as the only correct way - "You're getting better" as a response to someone who disagreed with you in general agreeing with one of your points

I take this with a pinch of salt .. agreeing with you over some of your points doesn't mean I think your not scum I'm afraid Mister Fitz.

[havingfitz]

@mikemike...pappums lie is only part of the reason he has my vote. Are there people who are voting him simply based on his lie? Are you voting me based on that assumption?

[Voidedmafia]

P.T: Admittedly, I'm focusing solely on Pappums until his lynch. That's not to say I don't have any other suspects (Cecily, for one), but I'm just really sure that Rat is the lynch for today.

Though, I need to also reread, to look for a potential buddy/buddies if he does flip scum. If he flips town, though, that would probably clear Cecily and put Fitz in the spotlight, would it not?

Why would it clear Cecily ? Because she said that the Rat gambit essentially cleared him in her eyes ? That's pretty naive to think well in that case if Rat is town then Cecily must be as well ??? Naive or a scum player looking to protect their own anyway.

Who has defended rat more that others? Cecily. Who would gain more credit if Rat scumflips? Cecily, and probably a few others who have defended rat.

Do I think that means she isn't scum? Of course not. Just because she defends a townie doesn't automatically make her town. Does it make her look more town for defending a townie? Absolutely.

[andrew94]

alright pine is scummy because he unvotes and votes pappums again??

why would you do that

hint: change ur order in vote count

Okay, now that I've gotten the sarcastic response out of my system and repressed the urge to smite the stupid in you, I'll explain. Using small words and typing slowly.

I unvoted...and voted again...for emphasis.

I mean, really? To change vote count order? Why the hell would anyone bother? OH NOES, I'M THIRD THE NERD IN THE VOTE COUNT.

Also, please learn to capitalize, use punctuation, and spell out your words. Using question marks in a declarative statement confuses and actually changes your meaning, and replacing 'your' with 'ur' just makes you look like an idiot. Or perhaps a child.
Damn...I really did start this post with patience in mind...oh well.

because, when we analyse vote count later, your vote is not going to be in the right position
so i am pointing it out, also stop with the personal insults (dumbass)

[Pine]

In the right position? In the right position for...what exactly?

Besides. No one voted for PR in the time between my initial vote and revote. So my position is...exactly the same. Please stop failing and do something useful.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, up to page 9 now. I'm tempted to think that Pappums is town because I don't see his gambit benefitting scum any way. I know it's WIFOM, but the reality is that here on mafiascum we lynch people for that kind of crap so often that scum wouldn't do it.

[Pine]

When you get to it, I explain exactly how clever scum would benefit from it shortly after I replace in.

[Voidedmafia]

Bub, that is EXACTLY what scum would want you to think. "Its so scummy, scum wouldn't do it!" As Pine said, he's gone over that earlier.

Andrew: Not like you haven't done any yourself <_<.

[mikemike778]

@mikemike...pappums lie is only part of the reason he has my vote. Are there people who are voting him simply based on his lie? Are you voting me based on that assumption?

I've explained why I'm voting for you ... its not changed.

Re - Rat Outside of the gambit I've not seen anything particularly scummy from him so at this point, the only reason for me to vote Rat would be on the basis of the gambit. I've already come to the conclusion that it (the gambit) doesn't point in the scum direction so I wont be voting for him as things stand particularly seeing as I have a scum read another player. This was my point.

Although re your vote - my take on it was and is that it was all 'about the gambit' certainly earlier on with some fluff added later on.

[Pine]

Mike: Nothing scummy outside the gambit? Pay attention.

[mikemike778]

When you get to it, I explain exactly how clever scum would benefit from it shortly after I replace in.

Its just WIFOM ... Like Bub says this kinda thing gets scum lynched. You can talk till your blue in the face about how scum will do this because town think they wouldn't blah blah but facts are some people think its scummy and if there's enough of them, the player will get lynched.

Therefore its not a great move for scum in my book.

Rat is by no means clear (admittedly when he first confessed I did put a town label on him which has drifted back down to 'dont know') but there seems to me to be way too much enthausiasm for the gambit as a clear scum-tell).