The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

what makes them less town in my book is that the content IS THERE they just need to get their act together and post more.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

so again: NOT SCUM. Not town incarnate. BUT NOT SCUM

[YosFlavouredCayke]

CONTENT

They have not active lurked They put too much down to be active lurking.

BOTH OF THEM, BEAVER AND SVT

If it was just lurking, that would be bad enough, but it's significantly worse then that. It's that when Beaver did post, his posts look like scum posts.

Look at him in iso. In his ISO post #3, he made that scummy vote for Ether. Over the next 12 days, he kept that horrible vote on a townie in place; he made 4 posts, but all of them were useless garbage. He took the time to write paragraphs explaining why he wasn't going to say what players made up his hydra, but didn't say anything useful or relevent at all.

In his next post he calls Ether "decitful" for calling him a newb, and then follows it up with a completly garbage attack on me. (wtf? He keeps his identity secret, then says she's lying about how much expernece he has?), I don't know why he was attacking me, other then that I thought Ether was obvtown and he didn't. The one decent observation in this post was that I mixed up him and Balam in my summery post, but then he somehow takes that obvious typograpical error and acts like it's a scum tell. This is also the post that starts out with the masonfishing "Either Ether and Yos are masons, or they're scum", goes into "I think Ether is probably town", and then votes for me. There is so much wrong with this, I don't even know where to begin.

My best guess here is that Beaver was scum who was afraid me and Ether were masons. He was trying to get me to admit that or deny it in that horribly worded and scummy attack post there, and then when I wouldn't answer, he killed Ether because he thought she was a mason.

Anyway, he made a few other posts, but they were garbage. He calls US "incredibscum" but dosn't vote him, and asks in the same post for what the case against him is. And then he repeated his masonfishing garbage.

So, he lurked for 90% of the day, and when he posted, it was to vote for a townie (Ether) for stupid reasons, to keep his vote on that townie while refusing to comment on anything for a week and a half, and then to vote me for calling Ether a townie, while rolefishing, contradicting himself, and generally acting like newb scum. Now, please, explain to me how from that you got a town read off of him.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

In other news, my life is slowly getting back together.

Hope everything goes well, Cayke.

---

Greymarble, I don't think I need to wait for you to sort whatever it is you were doing to respond to this, do I?

I have to figure out why Lord Fonzi reads as scum to me.

Did you ever figure this out? What I see from you is a Lord Fonzi read dependent on Balam-scum, and you made this comment before RayFrost posted. I'm interested in your read of Lord Fonzi independent of us.

This is of particular interest to me. The other thing, too, but that's more RayFrost's area.

---

Being one of those people who take

forever

to catch up in games, I don't consider it a scum tell, but it's still annoying nonetheless on this side of the fence. Anyway, post 522, it's... lacking. I'm surprised they came up with only that much after 9 pages. AGar thinks the post was awful. Equinox wants to wait and see what they say when they finally gather their thoughts together (but would like them to speed up).

The hydra consensus now is that... well, there is no consensus, really. AGar is running out of patience and wants to hop onto the GummyBear wagon. I'd rather wait until GummyBear's V/LA is over and see if they deliver the promised goods and then judge. RayFrost has bloodlust for Greymarble, and with Greymarble's newest post, I guess we're in for a treat.

As for me, I'm bothered that the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon has been sitting like this for a while. It's become a fixture. I want to attribute that to Frogito Ergo Sum's overall level of activity given that I do believe this wagon is made up of town and everyone has expressed a reason why they're on it, but something in the back of my mind tells me something's up. Will look into this.

---

Oh, hey, previews.

I didn't think he was outwardly town but there was no way he was scum.

He didn't post much, but there was no WAY he was lurking, NONE.

TER RI BAD.

Um, Kcdaspot, are we talking about the same thread?

You're making

terrible

points. You say BeaverWeasel wasn't "outwardly town" but not outwardly scummy, and then you're on about how they weren't actively lurking and how they should've been skimming if they were. Terrible assumptions. Somehow, all of this makes them "NOT SCUM" enough for you to defend them this hard...?

I'm not buying this.

Unvote, Vote: DaSpotthatkillsu

[Final Destination]

[AGM]

Fate and I are both exhausted, so it'll be a bit before we get another SYNC POST up. In the meantime, there's lots of walls, there's lots of information, there's lots of reads. We need a flip. FES is that flip. Go go go.

[Fate Approved]

[Unicorn Brethren]

Unicorn Brethren should consider consolidating itself. A multihead hydra is all fine and good, but organisation is good too.

Agreed. I am going to try to get more of them to post here and/or discuss what we're going to post in our QT. It's gotten a bit dead in there.

[Super Vanilla Townie]

Picked up reading from p14. Probably missed a few pages somewhere but oh well.

Our case against US:
He starts out slow, then jumps on FES and tunnels him. Scum routinely make this sort of move to avoid the D1 radar.
FES is also a soft target for voteparking compared to players like FD who routinely blast people who go after them. Scum usually pick soft targets.
After this start, their outlook (FES & his defenders are scummy) stays the same despite more information which should lead to new evaluations/perspectives on what's going on.
And they spend time complaining about how bad various bandwagons are, but they never mention any townreads or other notable analysis based on them.
This gave us a sense that they were jabbing around rather than figuring out the situation & evolving reads.

Their play is also overly hostile and abrasive. The indignation feels feigned rather than real.
Finally, the players voting for them aren't bad company.

I realize that US was town, but this is still a good case by Greymarble. Clear, concise, to-the-point. Townpoints.

What the hell are you talking about?

Patrick-Ether are obvtown. Anyone who reads their posts should know that. I've never said I didn't trust her, or anything like that.

This caught my eye, so I scrolled back through your ISO and found this:

Just because Ether looks town, doesn't mean I'm going to unvote you just because she did.

While this isn't exactly a contradiction, mind you, I can see how it looks like you said you don't trust Ether.

Reading through makes me realize that we're replacing into a pretty shitty slot. But rather than go through and address every case made against our predecessor (which is near impossible being that I don't know his reasoning), I'm just going to try and scumhunt to the best of my ability to prove we're town.

I'm also going to note that I'm 90% sure we replaced RichardGHP, not Mastin. See: any of the posts with big words. Read those and tell me that's doesn't sound like Richard (for anyone here that knows him).

Anyways.

Yos brings up a very good point about DaSpot's pre-flip comment:

Also, I wanted to ask DaSpot about this:

.... you all are idiots.

He said this after the hammer, but before the alignment reveal. Re-reading his earlier posts, he did at one point briefly mention that he thought US was pro-town, but he never really tried to defend him or argue against the wagon, even though he was around while it was building up. It just seems odd to me; DaSpot, if you guys were THAT sure that the US wagon was going to be a bad one, why didn't you try harder to stop it?

And I thought the same thing when I read Spot's line as well. However, if Spot had been defending the wagon, I probably would find him scummier to be honest. That post still reads oddly, though, so

FoS: Spot

.

In particular, his ISO 26’s "323 is bad" makes sense, but his subsequent ISO 29 "bad =/= scummy" seems like he’s bending over backwards not to concede a point to Final Destination.

Not really. There's a world of difference between bad posts/players/etc and scummy posts/players/etc.

I'm getting weird vibes off of Copper. Reading his posts, they make sense and seem logical, hell I even agree with some points... but something is off. I can't quite place my finger on it, but his posts just seem... odd. Keeping an eye on him.

Speaking of scumhunting, gummy's comment earlier got me thinking about the motivation behind the Ether kill. Considering her suspicions yesterday, and how she was likely to vote today, Ether being killled makes Beaver look worse, and Froggy (and, to a lesser extent, FD) look better. She was pretty clear in her intent to lynch Beaver today.

WIFOM. Scum can kill someone to frame, PR hunt, or just for the hell of it. I dislike discussing reasons for nightkills, because it's never very useful. Not liking this post. But like others have pointed out, I don't see why YFC-scum would buddy up to Pathetric, NK her, and then defend an FES lynch (whether FES is town or also scum, it doesn't matter). So YFC is scummy in my eyes, mostly on gut, but the one thing stopping me from placing our vote on them is lack of scum motivation for their actions.

@ FD I would GLADLY be on the FES wagon. unvote vote:FES I'm just afraid my other head will want to switch it back for some reason.

:badposting:

PARAMA IS ALWAYS FUCKING HORRIBLE WITH READS

I can attest to this.


After quick ISO skims of anyone I missed in my catchup: Pie's updated reads:
1. Frogito Ergo Sum - Leaning town. Not seeing the case on them.
3. Gummybear - I don't see how BW's 323 is :goodposting:. And I don't see how he finds Spot town either.
4. Final Destination - disliking how they've done a 180 on their FES and YFC reads (see: this post
5. Balam - :goodposts:, :largeposts:, :nullread:
6. Lord Fonzi - Town.
7. Copper - :goodposters:, but I'm getting weird vibes off of their posts.
8. Greymarble - Leaning town.
11. YosFlavouredCayke - Scummy, but lacks scum motivation.
12. Unicorn Brethren - nullread. Probably town after that hammer.
13. DaSpotthatkillsu - Scummy.

Willing to lynch: Spot, Gummy, FD.
Maybe lynch but it'd take some convincing: YFC, Copper

Vote: Spot

I'd like to seriously apologize for how long it took to offer -some- content, because it annoys me when others put off catching up like I/we did.

If anyone has any questions or wants me to elaborate on a read or whatever, ask.

~Pie

[Super Vanilla Townie]

Add UB to the maybe list, btw.

[Greymarble]

Ah good, SVT is town.

Pie - Scum motivation. Ether and Yosarian have played together so many times that they can read each other like books, according to what they said. This ain't a frame, as I've been sitting on that one since I saw the shot, and no one has even hinted at it. Ether is dead. That's a pile of scum motivation right there, and I don't think that 'masons' is what they were shooting for.

Wallposts incoming.

[Greymarble]

P.S. Spot is town

I have ongoing game related reasons, but I can share some of them thanks to RayFrost's game ending. Simply put, kcdaspot is far too nervous as scum. I was wondering whether it would just be the one game, but no. I screamed at him second post in the thread. He shut down. Put simply, he breaks under pressure. He's been under quite some pressure, and ain't breaking. Is this meta? Kinda. He's also doing things that simply lack scum motivation, and he's pushing people. My feeling is that given kcda's natural lurking tendancies, inexperience, and the fact he's twice screwed his scumteam over, he'd defer to dana as scum. Instead, he's quite publically grabbed the hydra back from dana several times.

He's also very self-righteous. He's just newbie town.

[Greymarble]

Now onto Equinox - that's the sort of stuff I like to see! Nice, solid, defense. You're scum, but you're going to make me work for it. And that's fun.

First, onto RayFrost on his meta, and lemme talk about that one for a sec. Four questions:

1) I called kcdaspot "OBVSCUM" in what ISO #?
2) The Jora and Fatso wagons were unviable because of who?
3) I buddied how many people who were not RayFrost in the thread? (followup: And I started doing it what ISO #?)
4) Who suggested that Neil, his strongest PR read, should "be careful?"

I may have screwed up my buddying a bit, but to be fair buddying is annoying enough when I'm scum, buddying scum when I'm town is a real trick (especially when you want to derail their wagon). Does it help having a town full of obvtown and good players like Neil to work with? HELLS YES. But don't blame my cop ability for that loss. But hey, being sore about that is a null tell.

So not false meta, and not "supplimenting my case" with it. I'm making RayFrost nervous. And he's funny when he's nervous.

-~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~--~=~-

But that's all an aside. The problem I have right now with Balam is pretty much as follows: complete total inconsistency, insincerity, overjustification, and the fact they got a scum role PM.

Lets start day 1:

Currently of the opinion that these people are town: Pathetric (As yos said, easy to read), FD (Fate is easy to read when you've been in a few games with him, and his posting here is sincere), and DSTKU (meta, not particularly strong of a read and we aren't in agreement within the hydra about this).

Neutral / Null reads: Untrod Stranger (Some good posting, but not enough), GummyBear (Not enough posts outside the Ether / SS debate to tell, and that left a slight edge of scum for me and edge of town for the rest of the hydra), and Reckamonic (Not enough posts).

Scum reads: YFC and FES. YFC's recent posting makes my read here less certain, but I really don't like the feeling I get whenever I read Yos + Ether interactions earlier in the thread. FES has overall not much in the way of content as I look through their postings. I don't approve of the FD vote, but that may just be due to differing reads. There's very little to look at that makes me have good vibes with a lot of commentary that essentially does null to the discussion. This read isn't as solid amongst the heads as it is on the YFC read.

So lets go over these people

DSTKU - "Mild read" that has since reversed.

US/UT - Tripod is THE classic mislynch of the century, IS is unpredictable and varies between obvtown and scummy as hells.
GummyBear - Quadz and SingerSigner are definitely easy targets

YFC - was under a lot of heat, may still be scum, raw easy target in any case.
FES - obviously under piles of heat, CES is know to threadshit.


Now, onto softer reason:

Speaking from a group perspective: We're in much more agreement regarding town reads than scum reads right now. There's some disagreement about YosFlavouredCayke, and I don't think I'll last very long in the QuickTopic once I've pulled this particular stunt (see below). AGar still likes having Frogito Ergo Sum's collective neck in a knot. I don't think RayFrost has changed his stance on YosFlavouredCayke since Green Shirt Thursday, but I haven't heard him say anything about them since. Personally, I'm undecided(!) on who's scum because I have yet to do the player-by-player analyses that I've been meaning to do since last week. I'll spend a few hours on those before I go poof for the week.

This stuff is interesting. It seems to reveal the internal logic of their hydra. Or does it?

No.

It doesn't. It's all a pack of fluffy nonsense. Here's goodposting:

AGar thinks they're town because of X,Y, and Z.
RayFrost thinks X is a nulltell, Y and Z are slightly townie, but N,P, and Q outweigh those.
I think Ray has a point, but it's not strong enough to move my vote there yet, as Q is rather weak.

In other words solid logical arguments that reveal disagreement. This is like "what I did on my summer vacation." It wastes words, time, and paragraphs, and is just laying the grounds for a votejump or position shift with no displayed in-thread logical reasoning.

Take this for instance:

I don't see a problem. I didn't move off Frogito Ergo Sum because the desire for Frogito Ergo Sum's blood in the QuickTopic was pretty high, and I trust AGar's and RayFrost's judgment; I assume neither AGar nor RayFrost moved off because they suspected Frogito Ergo Sum more than GummyBear.

Where are these reasons that FES is scum? Well, I dunno. Just RayFrost and AGar want blood, and you trust their judgment. Coolio, I don't trust you. So gimme some reasons. I accept hydra head disagreements, but SVT and Copper are both doing things right and posting ARGUMENTS.

You're reading me bedtime stories. And when pushed on the reasoning, it flaked. RayFrost thinks SVT is scum because of the hammer? Oh come on. RayFrost thought it was scummy not to have a reason to suspect svt and grabbed the first one that popped to mind. But it was factually untrue.

And therein lies the problem. If the real answer was "Equinox thinks that, I still say the spot is null" then he'd have said that. If the answer was "general low activity level, it's not a strong read" I'd have bought that. But that reason? That was "it's scummy not to have a good reason!"

Nooooooooooo.

Equinox is someone I instinctively like, but I just cannot ignore the facts of the matter - Balam has posted tons and tons and tons of NOTHING. Balam has added less content to the thread than Spot and UB.

Being one of those people who take forever to catch up in games, I don't consider it a scum tell, but it's still annoying nonetheless on this side of the fence. Anyway, post 522, it's... lacking. I'm surprised they came up with only that much after 9 pages. AGar thinks the post was awful. Equinox wants to wait and see what they say when they finally gather their thoughts together (but would like them to speed up).

The hydra consensus now is that... well, there is no consensus, really. AGar is running out of patience and wants to hop onto the GummyBear wagon. I'd rather wait until GummyBear's V/LA is over and see if they deliver the promised goods and then judge. RayFrost has bloodlust for Greymarble, and with Greymarble's newest post, I guess we're in for a treat.

As for me, I'm bothered that the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon has been sitting like this for a while. It's become a fixture. I want to attribute that to Frogito Ergo Sum's overall level of activity given that I do believe this wagon is made up of town and everyone has expressed a reason why they're on it, but something in the back of my mind tells me something's up. Will look into this.

Lemme summarize this:
SVT doesn't have much content and neither does their replacement
FES wagon is a little weird (like Copper wasn't saying that five pages ago)

Three paragraphs of FLUFF

THE ENTIRE ISO IS THIS. NOTHING BUT THIS.

Fluff, Fluff. Fluff. These long posts? All fluff.

I could summarize every solid point they made in the thread thusly:

1) People are lurking
2) YFC is spending more time finding town reads than scumreads
3) UB is weird because it reversed reads from midday until hammer
4) FES is scummy for pushing a metacase that was complete bullshit (and that I pulled the rug out from under)
5) BeaverWeasel is lurking worse than the other lurkers
6) kcdaspot's reasoning behind the defense of YFC is weak

That's the ONLY SALIENT POINTS you raised. Everything else has been "I like this." "I don't like that." "Agar thinks X, RayFrost thinks Y." "This hydra is coming to a consensus."

THAT'S IT? Lemme quote them again for our benefit:

1) People are lurking
2) YFC is spending more time finding town reads than scumreads
3) UB is weird because it reversed reads from midday until hammer
4) FES is scummy for pushing a metacase that was complete bullshit (and that I pulled the rug out from under)
5) BeaverWeasel is lurking worse than the other lurkers
6) kcdaspot's reasoning behind the defense of YFC is weak

All the other reasoning is hiding in this mysterious QT. So deep in the QT you haven't shared any little bit of it with us.


Yup. Suspicions confirmed. Prolific active lurking.

Want my blood RayFrost? Bring it. But better bring reasoning when you do, because it would be a brand new contribution for you guys to this thread.

[Yosarian2]

WIFOM. Scum can kill someone to frame, PR hunt, or just for the hell of it. I dislike discussing reasons for nightkills, because it's never very useful.

Not in the current meta. The current meta is "town never talk about the reasons behind nightkills, so scum generally can get away with killing off whoever suspects them with impunity, without worrying about how it looks." Town should be analyzing nightkill motives more then they are now. Granted, there can in theory be a ton of WIFOM, but if towns at least consider the obvious nightkill motives, that is going to either catch scum or else make it harder for scum to directly influence the day-game with their nightkills, and either way, it'll result in more town wins.

You are right, of course, about the possibility of PR hunting. In fact, it was your predecessor, Beaver, who was openly speculating in thread that Ether was a mason.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

WIFOM. Scum can kill someone to frame, PR hunt, or just for the hell of it. I dislike discussing reasons for nightkills, because it's never very useful.

Not in the current meta. The current meta is "town never talk about the reasons behind nightkills, so scum generally can get away with killing off whoever suspects them with impunity, without worrying about how it looks." Town should be analyzing nightkill motives more then they are now. Granted, there can in theory be a ton of WIFOM, but if towns at least consider the obvious nightkill motives, that is going to either catch scum or else make it harder for scum to directly influence the day-game with their nightkills, and either way, it'll result in more town wins.

You are right, of course, about the possibility of PR hunting. In fact, it was your predecessor, Beaver, who was openly speculating in thread that Ether was a mason.

-Yos

Bah, I keep posting with the wrong account in this game.

[Unicorn Brethren]

Add UB to the maybe list, btw.

Put Copper on your Willing to Lynch list and it's a deal.

Vote: Copper

if we aren't already.

[Greymarble]

I will now support a policy lynch unless UB cleans its act up and starts posting reads, reasons, and thoughts in an awful whole hurry.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

First off, Kcdaspot. I believe what Greymarble mentioned about Kcdaspot's nervous meta was also RayFrost's "secret meta tell" that he wouldn't tell me. However, he has recently indicated that danakillsu hasn't made appearances in their QuickTopic, and it's difficult to defer to people when they're not there. His posts defending BeaverWeasel are awful, awful like scum white-knighting and not town white-knighting. On top of that, the slot has had a defensiveness in their posts for a while that have been irritating, and I believe now that it's because they've been nervous about the suspicion against them from YosFlavouredCayke.

Moving onto Greymarble's wall, I'm pleased that you didn't back off us like you did with Final Destination. That would've been scummy, but instead, you react like this. Cool. You're dead wrong, still. Let's dance.

DSTKU - "Mild read" that has since reversed.

I had a gut town read on DaSpotthatkillsu from their posting early on Day 1, and RayFrost had his meta read. It has been reversed because new evidence suggests that they are scum. I'll reiterate that Kcdaspot's white-knighting of BeaverWeasel in his recent spat with YosFlavouredCayke was terrible in that it did not match the facts, and what he was saying rang false; if someone isn't scummy and isn't townish, they are

null

. You don't scream with a blue face that they're not scum, and the only way you can be sure that someone like that is town on Day 1 is if you are scum. New evidence, new read.

I hate the "easy targets" argument. Y'know, sometimes they are scum. We saw that they were making actions that could have been scum-motivated, and we called them scum. There is no reason to discount someone just because they're an easy mark. If you saw them drop town tells and read them as town, then fine, we disagree, but don't just drop things like, "Oh, GummyBear's an easy target, Balam is scum for attacking them."

This stuff is interesting. It seems to reveal the internal logic of their hydra. Or does it?

Funny you say that. That was pretty much a stream-of-consciousness paragraph you quoted, and then you miss the stuff after that paragraph. Thanks for knocking out the context, nice work.

Read that paragraph again and tell me you didn't see this:

• AGar still had a scum read on Frogito Ergo Sum. (I didn't elaborate because he didn't. Plain and simple.)
• RayFrost had not updated his reads with us since his post in green, so I assumed he still had YosFlavouredCayke-scum.
• Equinox has no scum reads because she needed to get a better grip on the game.

Did I word all of that poorly? Maybe, but I was revealing what was going on with the three of us in there. Seems you don't like it when I talk about things that way; I'll keep that in mind for next time.

That's the ONLY SALIENT POINTS you raised. Everything else has been "I like this." "I don't like that." "Agar thinks X, RayFrost thinks Y." "This hydra is coming to a consensus."

:badposting:

In case you didn't catch the memo, Equinox is posting on AGar's and RayFrost's behalf unless there are circumstances calling for them to post. What that's going to mean is I will say what is on their mind, and I'm not labeling anything as a "we" if it's just that person saying it. While I could wait for more consensus between us three before posting and do away with the "X thinks Y" lines, but the last time I did that, we were knocked out for a week waiting for each other to get caught up and post. Consider those to be reads from someone within our hydra; don't dismiss it just because all three of us didn't agree on it.

If one of us doesn't like something, we

don't like it

. We're not Frogito Ergo Sum; "bad" is going to mean "scummy" unless we say otherwise.

You're right that I've referred to the QuickTopic fairly often. There is a real reason for that, and it's not "lol we're waiting for consensus." There are things I can't talk about in the thread due to gag rules, etc. Take my word for it or don't.

Now... I don't want your blood anymore because I'm a lot more interested in someone else's blood. Whether or not RayFrost continues to feel bloodlust for you will be apparent pretty soon because he's going to be the one replying to your points about Newbie 1068.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Add UB to the maybe list, btw.

Put Copper on your Willing to Lynch list and it's a deal.

Vote: Copper

if we aren't already.

:badvoting:

Your points against Copper were refuted and people have expressed disagreement about them. Be less lazy and tell us why you so strongly believe Copper to be scum... because I really, really don't see it.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Welp. I missed something.

Where are these reasons that FES is scum? Well, I dunno. Just RayFrost and AGar want blood, and you trust their judgment. Coolio, I don't trust you. So gimme some reasons. I accept hydra head disagreements, but SVT and Copper are both doing things right and posting ARGUMENTS.

Funny story. When I said, "AGar still wants blood," that's literally all I got from him. I've asked him to come in here and explain why his read is so strong.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Sorry about the quadruple post. I realized I forgot yet another thing. I still want the answer to this:

I have to figure out why Lord Fonzi reads as scum to me.

Did you ever figure this out? What I see from you is a Lord Fonzi read dependent on Balam-scum, and you made this comment before RayFrost posted. I'm interested in your read of Lord Fonzi independent of us.

Now I'm out.

[Balam]

Now onto Equinox - that's the sort of stuff I like to see! Nice, solid, defense. You're scum, but you're going to make me work for it. And that's fun.

First, onto RayFrost on his meta, and lemme talk about that one for a sec. Four questions:

1) I called kcdaspot "OBVSCUM" in what ISO #?
2) The Jora and Fatso wagons were unviable because of who?
3) I buddied how many people who were not RayFrost in the thread? (followup: And I started doing it what ISO #?)
4) Who suggested that Neil, his strongest PR read, should "be careful?"

I may have screwed up my buddying a bit, but to be fair buddying is annoying enough when I'm scum, buddying scum when I'm town is a real trick (especially when you want to derail their wagon). Does it help having a town full of obvtown and good players like Neil to work with? HELLS YES. But don't blame my cop ability for that loss. But hey, being sore about that is a null tell.

1. Never. You went "YOU AREN'T BEING V. OBV SCUM RITE?" in iso #0
2. Jora because of Jora and my own efforts in that regard. Fatso because of you.
3. You buddied neil. Iso #1. You actually buddied neil more than you buddied me, and your buddying of me didn't extend past your iso #1, hence why your whole "I buddied scumz to make them not kill me" logic is not accurate representation. To contrast, your budying of neil continued throughout your posting whenever he came up.
4. Yeah, you totally read my mind on the fact I had a PR read on him. Using coincidental evidence to state your meta is accurate is piss poor.

The cop ability sealed the deal. I blame the REASONLESS DEADLINE LYNCH ON MY RB SCUMBUDDY CLEARING ALL THE OTHER SCUM POSSIBILITIES ASIDE FROM THE TWO OF US. You saying your copping me was somehow brilliant deduction on your part is lolfail. I was the only possible scum after the lynch from your PoV.

But that's all an aside. The problem I have right now with Balam is pretty much as follows: complete total inconsistency, insincerity, overjustification, and the fact they got a scum role PM.

Lets start day 1:

Currently of the opinion that these people are town: Pathetric (As yos said, easy to read), FD (Fate is easy to read when you've been in a few games with him, and his posting here is sincere), and DSTKU (meta, not particularly strong of a read and we aren't in agreement within the hydra about this).

Neutral / Null reads: Untrod Stranger (Some good posting, but not enough), GummyBear (Not enough posts outside the Ether / SS debate to tell, and that left a slight edge of scum for me and edge of town for the rest of the hydra), and Reckamonic (Not enough posts).

Scum reads: YFC and FES. YFC's recent posting makes my read here less certain, but I really don't like the feeling I get whenever I read Yos + Ether interactions earlier in the thread. FES has overall not much in the way of content as I look through their postings. I don't approve of the FD vote, but that may just be due to differing reads. There's very little to look at that makes me have good vibes with a lot of commentary that essentially does null to the discussion. This read isn't as solid amongst the heads as it is on the YFC read.

So lets go over these people

DSTKU - "Mild read" that has since reversed.

US/UT - Tripod is THE classic mislynch of the century, IS is unpredictable and varies between obvtown and scummy as hells.
GummyBear - Quadz and SingerSigner are definitely easy targets

YFC - was under a lot of heat, may still be scum, raw easy target in any case.
FES - obviously under piles of heat, CES is know to threadshit.

Inconsistency from the fact we don't have one person doing all of the work while the other(s) simply ignore the thread so we end up having different reads and do not attempt to spend days at a time to come to a consensus considering that the concept failed in the first place? Zomfg, obv scum.

Yeah, calling our change of read some kind of huge reversal when it's D2 and that was a D1 post. GENIUS.

Sure, but you did nothing to stop it, did you? Post-hoc.
They are also scummy. Scummy scum tend to be "easy targets" as you put it.

Completely ignoring everything we say about our reads to simply say the fact we have these reads is somehow scummy is funny.

Now, onto softer reason:

Speaking from a group perspective: We're in much more agreement regarding town reads than scum reads right now. There's some disagreement about YosFlavouredCayke, and I don't think I'll last very long in the QuickTopic once I've pulled this particular stunt (see below). AGar still likes having Frogito Ergo Sum's collective neck in a knot. I don't think RayFrost has changed his stance on YosFlavouredCayke since Green Shirt Thursday, but I haven't heard him say anything about them since. Personally, I'm undecided(!) on who's scum because I have yet to do the player-by-player analyses that I've been meaning to do since last week. I'll spend a few hours on those before I go poof for the week.

This stuff is interesting. It seems to reveal the internal logic of their hydra. Or does it?

No.

It doesn't. It's all a pack of fluffy nonsense. Here's goodposting:

AGar thinks they're town because of X,Y, and Z.
RayFrost thinks X is a nulltell, Y and Z are slightly townie, but N,P, and Q outweigh those.
I think Ray has a point, but it's not strong enough to move my vote there yet, as Q is rather weak.

In other words solid logical arguments that reveal disagreement. This is like "what I did on my summer vacation." It wastes words, time, and paragraphs, and is just laying the grounds for a votejump or position shift with no displayed in-thread logical reasoning.

I was a catch up post by equinox that gave a quick-look at her belief about our thoughts without my checking in and her completing her analysis. Of course it's going to be oh so lacking in the collective heads' reasoning. It's not like we are the only ones doing this, so your singling us out for this being scummy is noted.

Also, you're essentially saying we should have a certain level of disagreement and in depth reasoning that we should just hash out ITT to fill the game thread with noise as we argue back and forth. This isn't healthy. If we did all our thinking ITT, our "inconsistency" would be more (zomg, inconsistency is scumtellz), and it'd end up as argumentative threadshitting if we ended up simply agreeing to disagree. We decided pre-game that we don't want that, kthx.

Take this for instance:

I don't see a problem. I didn't move off Frogito Ergo Sum because the desire for Frogito Ergo Sum's blood in the QuickTopic was pretty high, and I trust AGar's and RayFrost's judgment; I assume neither AGar nor RayFrost moved off because they suspected Frogito Ergo Sum more than GummyBear.

Where are these reasons that FES is scum? Well, I dunno. Just RayFrost and AGar want blood, and you trust their judgment. Coolio, I don't trust you. So gimme some reasons. I accept hydra head disagreements, but SVT and Copper are both doing things right and posting ARGUMENTS.

You're reading me bedtime stories. And when pushed on the reasoning, it flaked. RayFrost thinks SVT is scum because of the hammer? Oh come on. RayFrost thought it was scummy not to have a reason to suspect svt and grabbed the first one that popped to mind. But it was factually untrue.

I don't remember when this post was, time-wise, but we do have a bit o' reasoning in our QT at this time, though I recall equinox posting reasoning.... I'm too lazy to check. That's on her.

Eh? Now you're just bullshitting. Misremembering something is hardly equivalent to scum going "omg I need a reason" and making one up. I had plenty o time to go back and check my acts if I was trying to make up a reason to avoid being scummy. The act I merely posted without doing so is due to the fact

I felt I remembered it correctly

. I suffer from sometimes-forgetting-things-itis. Also known as

not having a perfect memory

. Sue me.

And therein lies the problem. If the real answer was "Equinox thinks that, I still say the spot is null" then he'd have said that. If the answer was "general low activity level, it's not a strong read" I'd have bought that. But that reason? That was "it's scummy not to have a good reason!"

Nooooooooooo.

Equinox is someone I instinctively like, but I just cannot ignore the facts of the matter - Balam has posted tons and tons and tons of NOTHING. Balam has added less content to the thread than Spot and UB.

It was "I misremembered who the hell made the hammer and thought it was them and that is totally worth suspecting them for" which knocked out any "low activity" reasons when it comes to posting.

Yeah, sure. Total fluff posting. We're as contentless as a hydra that's posting probably 1/10 the amount we have that happens to have approximately 2 content posts. Yup, only one content post from us. MAkes perfect sense. Totally true. Man, you are a GENIUS.

Being one of those people who take forever to catch up in games, I don't consider it a scum tell, but it's still annoying nonetheless on this side of the fence. Anyway, post 522, it's... lacking. I'm surprised they came up with only that much after 9 pages. AGar thinks the post was awful. Equinox wants to wait and see what they say when they finally gather their thoughts together (but would like them to speed up).

The hydra consensus now is that... well, there is no consensus, really. AGar is running out of patience and wants to hop onto the GummyBear wagon. I'd rather wait until GummyBear's V/LA is over and see if they deliver the promised goods and then judge. RayFrost has bloodlust for Greymarble, and with Greymarble's newest post, I guess we're in for a treat.

As for me, I'm bothered that the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon has been sitting like this for a while. It's become a fixture. I want to attribute that to Frogito Ergo Sum's overall level of activity given that I do believe this wagon is made up of town and everyone has expressed a reason why they're on it, but something in the back of my mind tells me something's up. Will look into this.

Lemme summarize this:
SVT doesn't have much content and neither does their replacement
FES wagon is a little weird (like Copper wasn't saying that five pages ago)

Three paragraphs of FLUFF

> Completely ignores the gummybear commentary.
It's a checking in post to keep everyone updated on our thoughts. Got a problem?

I could summarize every solid point they made in the thread thusly:

1) People are lurking
2) YFC is spending more time finding town reads than scumreads
3) UB is weird because it reversed reads from midday until hammer
4) FES is scummy for pushing a metacase that was complete bullshit (and that I pulled the rug out from under)
5) BeaverWeasel is lurking worse than the other lurkers
6) kcdaspot's reasoning behind the defense of YFC is weak

That's the ONLY SALIENT POINTS you raised. Everything else has been "I like this." "I don't like that." "Agar thinks X, RayFrost thinks Y." "This hydra is coming to a consensus."

Ignoring my points against you, our commentary regarding gummybear, etc. You've essentially gone "everything that I don't feel like dealing with is absolute crap that doesn't mean anything, and everything that's been said by everyone else is all that you've said in this game"

Liking and disliking things is known as a read. Agar thinks X / RF thinks y is

exactly what you said we weren't doing early in this post

.

All the other reasoning is hiding in this mysterious QT. So deep in the QT you haven't shared any little bit of it with us.


Yup. Suspicions confirmed. Prolific active lurking.

Want my blood RayFrost? Bring it. But better bring reasoning when you do, because it would be a brand new contribution for you guys to this thread.

If you'd like, I can act like I replaced into this game, read the entire thread, and give you a quite possibly too long to read in any reasonable amount of time wall of text. Oh wait, you'd probably go "tl;dr version: FLUFF FLUFF FLUFF FLUFF FLUFF FLUFF FLUFF" rather than actually commenting. Nevermind. We've given quite a bit of our reasoning. The fact you go "lolflufflurking" in reaction to it doesn't make it go away.

Yes, because being sincere about a lack of agreement between us and saying where we disagree is active lurking.

I don't want your blood as of this post. You're still wrong, tunnel visioned, arrogant, and misrepresentative. Unfortunate that I get a town read off of you, really.

[Greymarble]

Well equinox's point is that they can't discuss certain things in the quicktopic.

Despite a long discussion over this and the fact that the rule clearly and comprehensively allows QT quoting in limited segments

And even if it didn't, explaining the logic to us in the thread would be fine.

All you ever say is "meh thinks blah, meh2 thinks blahblah, so blah blah blah, yadda yadda."

I have information from my quicktopic. Llamarble thinks RayFrost is an empty headed animal food trough wiper, and farts in his general direction.

That is all.

(the above may not be entirely accurate)

PEDIT: FROSTY!

[Final Destination]

Are you fucks SERIOUSLY arguing about meta technicalities in an already text heavy game?

Hell. No.

[Equinox]

(Equinox)

We can't. That's all I'm saying on the matter.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

We can't. That's all I'm saying on the matter.

Herp derp, Equinox.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Unvote, Vote: Greymarble

I have to figure out why Lord Fonzi reads as scum to me.

Did you ever figure this out? What I see from you is a Lord Fonzi read dependent on Balam-scum, and you made this comment before RayFrost posted. I'm interested in your read of Lord Fonzi independent of us.