This was always a silly argument. I let it slide too much when it was originally made because, heck, it's the early part of D1. AGar could've been trying to get EA to react to him a little bit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt despite not liking this argument very much. Let's look into it a little more deeply:AGar 24 wrote:Trying to use semantics to build an early game bandwagon?
VOTE: UNVOTE:
VOTE: Erratus Apathos
When AGar continues to use the same silly argument against EA going into page 8 is when I start to get annoyed with him. This is me telling AGar that there's nothing here. This is what I felt all along essentially. I don't think I ever once saw EA as scummy, and said, on at least two occasions, that he was rather townie.RC 186 wrote:I wish you would drop this, AGar. There's nothing here.
This is a connection you can take to the bank, ICE.penpen 61 wrote:who cares about initiative when its bullshit.Erratus Apathos wrote:I like the way NE took initiative.
As you can see here that agar brought this to light:AGar wrote:Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.Necessary Evil wrote:Look, ma! No content!penpen wrote:lol
Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha
VOTE: penpen
Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.
We've got two down! Easy-sauce.
I'm quoting this because I want you both to recognize that both of you have always been fairly stable townreads for me. This isn't too important in AGar's case, obviously, but I've said it once or twice, ICE, that I've consistentally seen you as town. This was long before you claimed. Of course a Godfather would have an incentive to befriend a Cop, but I just want to note that your claim didn't all of a sudden get me to say, "Oh, yeah, and ICE is definitely town!" AGar, on the other hand, never commented on what alignment he thought ICE was until D4 when he voted Ythan (implying that he saw no reason to not trust ICE's claim).RC 75 wrote:ICE, EA, and AGar have begun to lay the foundation for townreads.
I didn't talk about the penpen/Budja/rat slot because I was still rather neutral there. I wanted people to help me with a read on him. I was seeing him as slight town for essentially the entire D1, but I recognized the case on him. That's important to note because I asked for more spotlight on this role slot whereas AGar tried to keep the discussion centered on EA and then moz.RC 186 wrote:ICE, AGar, EA, NE, Ythan, Mae, and Exilon all seem like they're on the up and up. plague (Space Pope) is still the best wagon around right now. I wouldn't criticize the moz wagon either.
This is just more evidence of what I just said. At this point I was warming up to scumpenpen/Budja/rat, I just wanted more from him to analyze. Had rat not been shot, I was building toward this the next day.RC 286 wrote:I may be convinced on rat, but I'm having a hard time isolating anything substantial against him and not just lurker-oriented.
Let's face it, those rat and SV are basically lurker lynches. Especially SV. There's absolutely nothing to read on that slot.
Can anyone give me a summary of the rat case? Nothing Budja said stuck out at me.
This is pretty reasonable, but You're really going to need more than this to convince me here. I'll do my own reading, but you're really going to have to put forth some effort here.Red wrote: I'm slamming him for carrying out a tired, broken argument long past its welcome. Do you want to know why AGar was pushing EA for crap so hard going on ten pages during the game? Because his partner penpen/Budja was getting more and more pressure by the page.
Every game that I'm town in, people say that I'm town. It doesn't really help your position much to be buddying me about that because my role tends to be pretty obvious. When I'm scum, I get lynched day 1. When I'm townie, I either get night killed or lynched by scum late in the game.Red wrote: I'm quoting this because I want you both to recognize that both of you have always been fairly stable townreads for me. This isn't too important in AGar's case, obviously, but I've said it once or twice, ICE, that I've consistentally seen you as town.
This actually, in my eyes, looks really bad for you. You had some sort of suspicion there, but you never really "saw" it, and even went as far to dismiss it as a lurker lynch (bad). This could easily be you having wanted an outstanding scum read on a partner to point back to later (now), but subtly trying to prevent the wagon.Red wrote: Let's face it, those rat and SV are basically lurker lynches. Especially SV. There's absolutely nothing to read on that slot.
Can anyone give me a summary of the rat case? Nothing Budja said stuck out at me.
I'd hardly call penpen's not-so-subtle "Wow, AGar is so smart" post nothing. This, coupled with that sorry excuse for a push on EA, which, admittedly, was okay at first, until you went overboard with it to clearly try and keep penpen/Budja/rat alive (even ICE, at this point, saw that you were just swinging BS), clearly separates our D1 motivations.AGar 482 wrote:So... RC's case against me boils down to... actually nothing?
Not all of us have the advantage of knowing which arguments are solid and which are BS. The argument against then Budja, for example, was solid. The argument against EA, for example, was BS. I called out the latter, but I wasn't prepared to rule on the former. I wanted more information. penpen/Budja/rat were lurking at the time. You said it yourself that they weren't giving reads.AGar 482 wrote:You, on the other hand, didn't acknowledge them at all aside from calling them a lurker-lynch and ignored them until they flipped.
Oh, no. I was back and forth on moz until he started getting super emotional and angsty. At that point I knew either he was making some desparate manipulation attempts or he was a poor, unhelpful townie. I was very clear about my townreads at that point in the game, and I had fair townreads on everyone except for rat, moz, SP, and SV. That's on record. I wasn't prepared to vote SV or rat at that point given that I felt they were lurking too much. That's on record. My vote, at that point, was only going to be on one of those two people. I made this clear multiple times.AGar 482 wrote:On D1, when voting for Mozamis, you made sure to highlight that it wasn't a definite vote for scum, but rather distressed town OR panicked scum. Basically you didn't buy into the wagon, but you knew opposing it would look terrible?
Unfortunately my Spring Break week fell during the middle of D3. I was out of town and not checking the thread as often as normal. There was nothing really for me to say during D4. That was essentially a policy lynch. Had ICE have beaten me to the thread I'd have voted based on his results.AGar 482 wrote:You've semi-lurked and made it hard for anything to be gleaned from your posting since D1. You proposed the Klazam lynch, which was fine, but everything you've said so far is something that was already brought up at some point, and the first time you've actively attempted to make any real contributions to this game is now.
That was a solid, worthwhile lynch that needed to happen. Anyone who screws up a claim, one, two, is a supposed Miller in a game that has a Godfather and a Cop, and three, is still living with two scum down, should eat a lynch. I took full responsibility for that lynch and I don't think you have any evidence that says otherwise.AGar 482 wrote:You slid an (admittedly) easy Klazam lynch by, justifying it based more on the N1 flips and his miller claim than any behavior.
I had a townread on Exilon long before he claimed Vig, just like I did on ICE. I was neither trying to entice an investigation nor skirt a shot. You can say neither of these things about yourself that I can tell. You're far more guilty of this than I am.AGar 482 wrote:you've tried to fly completely under the radar, trying not to do anything that would attract the vig-bullet to yourself.
We did NOT know that there was a Godfather at this point in the game. Town didn't know there was a Godfather until Ythan flipped town at the end of day 4, in fact.Red wrote: That was a solid, worthwhile lynch that needed to happen. Anyone who screws up a claim, one, two, is a supposed Miller in a gamethat has a Godfatherand a Cop, and three, is still living with two scum down, should eat a lynch.
This isn't the first time he's done this today either, always trying to say that "hey look my town reads were right!". It isn't something town would need to do at this point.AGar wrote: Having a townread on Exilon is irrelevant, and I'm not sure why you're trying to use who you had townreads on to justify that point. Your behavior has looked as if you were intentionally trying to avoid attention throughout.
This is a weak vote, and could very easily be busing after he knew his partner was gone. A Godfather busing a goon is all but standard. Notice too that the role blocker was the hammer.Red wrote: Either a distressed town or a panicky scum. Either way, if this is his idea of moving forward in this game, then he's not going to be helpful to usregardless of his alignment.
I can't really find anything in his ISO that suggests he had any semblance of a case on Klazam at all. Scum was desperate for some mislynches at this point, and I could see this being used to draw investigation as well.Red wrote: Even if he is just a Miller, it's a good political tactic to just use a lynch on him now.
Maybe I'm reading too deep, but this feels a bit like projecting to me.Red wrote: It would kind of fit, actually if he was a Godfather role. He tried to get his VT claim out there in a rush to entice the supposed Cop, knowing both that the Cop would not want to investigate a PR and that his role slot was one of the more controversial. In other words, it's like he was trying every subtle thing he could to get that investigation.
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