Newbie 1072 - Game Over!

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I shall now point out some stuff.

1) Yeah: you know, because I did that before I revealed the investigations that in my mind cleared Charlie...oh, wait...it was AFTER.

This is an elaborate smokescreen: confirmed innocents are trusted above unconfirmed townsfolk. It's sort of a duh. If you're basing your case over me stating the obvious, that's not scummy. Neither is stating someone's cleared and treating their claim as sincere if you acutally are the Cop. That's good business.

I was unaware that cops needed to state repeatedly and at times that it isn't relevant who their investigations say are town. I was under the impression they only needed to mention it once and then everyone would know they the result.

2) Yawn. WIFOM. Scum could very easily fake that. That's a load, and you know it.

Haha, nice. What a complete turnaround. Ghostlin started this little thread of argument by including that I was too concerned with self-preservation as part of his "third-party case." The post Ghostlin is claiming I am WIFOMing with is me saying that his accusation of scummyness with regards to self-preservation from NKs makes no sense.

That seems like I phrased it wrong. To wit: Ghostlin uses me being too concerned with self-preservation as a reason I am scummy, then lists some things that only show me wanting to be preserved from NKs. I reply that this makes no sense as scum don't need to be afraid of their own NK. Now Ghostlin says that I am using WIFOM to declare myself town because scum wouldn't be afraid of NKs. Even though my statement was directly in response to his argument being bad, and not that my wanting to survive from NKs means that I am town. It had nothing to do with the second at all.

3) They're not going to autoassume doc either. Which is essentally what you said, King. A wise player would wait for a claim, even provoke it.

A wise player would role-fish the claimed PR?

4) It creates a link (not a strong one) between you and Dazzy that should be noticed and commented on.

Ok then.
...
Well what comments ya got? 'Cause I got nothing.

5) Um...no, we can't necessarly. Did you not read your own posts Day 1 or Day 2? You only start mentioning this business, when under the gun, NOW IN LYLO.

Oh ok, so because I didn't state my reads previous to LyLo that means that all the times I mentioned them in LyLo never happened. Makes perfect sense.

I have stated my reads over and over again, Dazzy is town, Charlie was neutral-town until Ghostlin started buddying him, Mute is null by himself but scum with Ghostlin, and Ghostlin is scum.

6) Bullshit. You were going to hammer if your posts are going to be believed. If you were serious about Foresti's letting him live for town's comments, you should have voted when we were done. You didn't vote TS at all that day. Your votes don't indicate any insistence of. You let off pressure.

My posts numbered 25, 26, 27, 31, 32, and

especially

34 are all from day 1, all from after the hammering thing, and all push TS.
Due to replacements nobody made many comments on TS at all for awile.

7) That last point is my point. You found it less likely (I think you used the phrase 'greatly unlikely') in an argument we had about the validity of information a townie shouldn't have.

...
...
I was unaware that your point was that I slightly changed my take on a situation because scum would have to be really dumb to do something. I thought it was more you saying I was making a "too scummy to be scum" argument, even though I didn't make one.

8) ...Which you've only mentioned on Day 3. We've not had any town reads before Day 3 from you. God, I sound like a broken record.

9) You texted walled, had two obvious suspects, and didn't EVEN FOS one. The most you did to TS was a Double HoS. There's NO point in town being that passive.

10-11) It's scummy if you don't ever let us know any reprision of your reads until endgame. You've been the only so...stingy with those. You could say anything about anyone now. You could say code from the pyramids proves that Dazzy is my supersecret scumpartner....we don't have a read on Dazzy, and the only read we have on Charlie is esssntally you thought he was scum Day 1. We'd have to utterly take your word for it on the reads, King. NO TOWNIE DOES THAT. Usually, they'll mention town reads, even in passing.

Ok, yes, I get it. Post town-reads and crap next time.

Why the heck did you leave this unmentioned till LyLo if it was so obviously scummy and anti-town anyway? Should have just asked me for my reads instead.

Try something more covnincing. Seriously, the worst you would of done at L-2 would of put him at L-1, which if you were convinced he was guilty, like you SAY YOU WERE, you should of applied the pressure back so we could reexamine the wagon.

Guys: this is the scummiest defense ever: "I didn't vote the lynch wagons because I didn't want to put them close to hammer, but I totally would of voted them if there was no danger of that." How do you think we win the game through lynches, anyway? If all of town voted like that, NONE of us would get anywhere.

Or I could have, you know,

not

tunneled onto TS and applied pressure to some other people as well while I was waiting for people to comment on TS. Like I did.

Same with the Mer wagon except replace "other people" with "Ghostlin" and "waiting for people to comment" with "I want to push him because he is scummy."

[Charlie]

Timestamp: Start reading WoTs.

[Charlie]

Sorry for not putting up anything yesterday, was busy writing out an essay and praying homage to the porcelain gods.

[Charlie]

Almost done reading, but critical information I request:

@Dazzy: Your said case.
@KingTwelveSixteen: Ghostlin's most probable scumbuddy.
@Mute: Two suspects.
@Ghostlin: Actually, nothing. Why did you change your avatar?

[Charlie]

Timestamp: Finished reading.

I read most, but not every word.
AtE is detected.
Feels like a courtroom, but in the end the defense of KingTwleveSixteen wins. Means that I think Ghostlin is lying, and this is me stating intention to vote him.
However, I first would like to hear from Mute and Dazzy.
Other than that, I'm done here.

[Mute]

Ugh. =_=

Sorry I haven't really been keeping up. Last thing I read was ghost responding to my post.

I've been rushing between home and the recruiters, revising shit and trying to study a ****load of terms I should have known last

month

. I won't opt out for replacement but tomorrow I'll actually sit and read through those walls. (Mastin would be impressed I bet... nah.)

Charlie (reads last post for ease of smallness (thank you ._.")) my reads are shot thanks to being distracted. I'll get back to you on that tomorrow.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
@KingTwelveSixteen: Ghostlin's most probable scumbuddy.
...

Huh? I thought you said you read the arguments.
That would be Mute.

[Charlie]

See, here's my point: everyone suspects Mute. If we lynch correctly today, and there is no further points to discuss, then Tomorrow's lynch is already decided. Am I wrong?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vote Count 3.4

KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (Ghostlin)
Ghostlin - 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)

Not Voting - 3 (Charlie, Dazzy, Mute)

3 to Lynch.

Click for Deadline

[Ghostlin]

See, here's my point: everyone suspects Mute. If we lynch correctly today, and there is no further points to discuss, then Tomorrow's lynch is already decided. Am I wrong?

The only thing is, that's almost too easy. Everyone thought that TS was scum due to his comments that seemed off, and he's now dead. Everyone thought Mer was scum due to the fakeclaim, and he's now dead. Now the most compelling evidence for Mute being scum is a VCA. Everytime we've strung up the obvious candidate, a townie ends up dead.

If I'm telling the truth as the Cop, you have a way to tell whether or not this is an elaborate setup or if Mute is scum. We need a way that takes me out of the supposition and helps confirm Mute's alignment. (If you lynch wrong regardless, Town loses.)

There's not much more I have to say on the whole King thing. If you seriously think not advertising your tells to town and refusing to vote when you acutally had plenty of time to do some a game day, and the evidence of the majority of five games having the generic wisdom be one scum off, one scum on the wagon. Yes, I played this aggressive, I played this aggressive to say alive. While I never lied to town outright (regardless of King's assertions), I said things in a certain way to provoke. Even my most scummy move in this game, the TS lynch, was engineered to be ultimately town. We shouldn't have and weren't going to lynch Mer that day. Meanwhile, King supposed he'd be around Day 2, delibrately withheld information Day 1 twilight so he could set up the maximum suspicion on me.

Let me ask you a question that's a bit WIFOMsque, Charlie: Stop and think about this for a minute: TClaw was fairly convinced I was town. King was screaming bloody murder Day 2 that I wasn't town. His entire reasoning for not airing his suspicions Twilight 1 was he was afraid if I was scum I'd NK him. Two things I wanna ask you as the IC:

1) First off, as a VT, why would he be afraid to die? He

didn't

claim a PR, and outside of lylo, VT's have not much to lose.
2) Why would it be more optimal if you accept Ghostlin=scum, for me to get rid of a player who had less suspicion of me than than King did? Also, Foresti never suspected me of anything N1 and was not and active player. Besides WIFOM, what's my motive for killing a possible mislynch?

[Dazzy]

Timestamp: Finished reading.

I read most, but not every word.
AtE is detected.
Feels like a courtroom, but in the end the defense of KingTwleveSixteen wins. Means that I think Ghostlin is lying, and this is me stating intention to vote him.
However, I first would like to hear from Mute and Dazzy.
Other than that, I'm done here.

I'm not perfectly comfortable with your voting yet. If Mute is scum, we guess wrong = quickhammer lose. As to your other assertion, while I do find Mute suspicious, I haven't ruled you out yet if Ghost is in fact scum. Some of your recent posts have left a bad taste in my mouth... Let's wait for Mute to get something in, and I'll have my case up tonight. I know I keep pushing it back but my last test of the year (before exams) is tonight, and another cumulative project was handed in today. I apologise, but simply not much time in the last few days. After my test tonight I plan to finish up and post ASAP.

Cheers for now.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

See, here's my point: everyone suspects Mute. If we lynch correctly today, and there is no further points to discuss, then Tomorrow's lynch is already decided. Am I wrong?

The only thing is, that's almost too easy. Everyone thought that TS was scum due to his comments that seemed off, and he's now dead. Everyone thought Mer was scum due to the fakeclaim, and he's now dead. Now the most compelling evidence for Mute being scum is a VCA. Everytime we've strung up the obvious candidate, a townie ends up dead.

If I'm telling the truth as the Cop, you have a way to tell whether or not this is an elaborate setup or if Mute is scum. We need a way that takes me out of the supposition and helps confirm Mute's alignment. (If you lynch wrong regardless, Town loses.)

There's not much more I have to say on the whole King thing. If you seriously think not advertising your tells to town and refusing to vote when you acutally had plenty of time to do some a game day, and the evidence of the majority of five games having the generic wisdom be one scum off, one scum on the wagon. Yes, I played this aggressive, I played this aggressive to say alive. While I never lied to town outright (regardless of King's assertions), I said things in a certain way to provoke. Even my most scummy move in this game, the TS lynch, was engineered to be ultimately town. We shouldn't have and weren't going to lynch Mer that day. Meanwhile, King supposed he'd be around Day 2, delibrately withheld information Day 1 twilight so he could set up the maximum suspicion on me.

Let me ask you a question that's a bit WIFOMsque, Charlie: Stop and think about this for a minute: TClaw was fairly convinced I was town. King was screaming bloody murder Day 2 that I wasn't town. His entire reasoning for not airing his suspicions Twilight 1 was he was afraid if I was scum I'd NK him. Two things I wanna ask you as the IC:

1) First off, as a VT, why would he be afraid to die? He

didn't

claim a PR, and outside of lylo, VT's have not much to lose.
2) Why would it be more optimal if you accept Ghostlin=scum, for me to get rid of a player who had less suspicion of me than than King did? Also, Foresti never suspected me of anything N1 and was not and active player. Besides WIFOM, what's my motive for killing a possible mislynch?

1. Arguing that we shouldn't lynch the person who is most scummy.

2. Refusal to reveal and never thinking about something (with nobody asking me about it), thus forgetting to do it are completly different things.

3. Nobody was calling Ghostlin scum because of his aggresiveness.

4. Ghostlin did lie. Forseti stopped me from lynching TS, not Ghostlin like he claimed.

5. How did waiting 'till day 2 to reveal my suspicions set up the maximum amount of suspicion? It would be the same amount of suspicion if I had just said it during day-1

6. Why would scum be afraid of the NK? Why is Ghostlin still using this to say I am scummy when I have completely countered it?

[Ghostlin]

1) If Mute's the most scummy, why are you voting me? Honestly, if you are saying Mute's the most scummy,

why isn't your vote on the most scummy player?

Oh, if you're trying to turn this into why I'm not voting Mute: investigated guilty scum>unknown probable scum. Always.

2) This is a convienent defense.

3) Then what do you have? The TS and Mer cases which you agree on needed to happen but disagree with the timing of (and frankly, I don't see your point about the Mer case, I didn't hammer, just put him at L-2)? Shall I quote that to you? Misreps? You've misrepped people too. My 'lie', which is more of an exaggeration?

4) My post: #122

My thoughts, in no particular order:

Generic:

1) Put away your itchy hammer fingers. That's not worth it. Also, if you are town, DO NOT self-vote, OR self-hammer. It's an antitown play and helps no one. I have to say this because we're on our second wagon at L-1 today and one of you might get weirdly suicidal on me. (I've had townies do it before.)

2) Ignore the fact that we're SEs/ICs when you make your cases as much as possible. Regardless of the role assigned, I play to win, I expect Charlie to, and I expect Mute to. Yes, I'm here to have fun, but winning is important.

My reads:

Mute:

Has gotten a lot better at this. He reads very town to me. Who do you like better, Charlie or TS for lynch if right now was the deadline and they were both at L-1? Why?

TS:

Whoa, turbo. A few questions for you:

1) Is it possible that Foresti and Charlie could be defending each other's points outside of scum buddies?
2) Why would you be comfortable with a hammer on Day 1, Page 5? Explain in detail.
3) Do you always make connections this soon in games?
4) If Charlie was scum, do you think his buddy might throw him under the bus and distance at L-1 instead of buddying up to him?

You're leaning scum because you're trying too hard. You're eager for a lynch right now when we need to gather information. I'm not comfortable with telegraphing a Foresti/Charlie scum pair, and lynching them right this second to endgame. Let your brain engage and stop trying to impress us.

Charlie:

Were you aware that the question you asked might be taken as rolefishing? If so, why did you ask it? You've not given me a lot to say you're a victim of misunderstanding.

GXW:

Tell me. What do you think of TS and Charlie right now? If one of them's scum, do you think they both might be? Why or why not?
Also, answer the question I gave Mute.
Nulltell: your last two posts don't betray you're thinking. You did follow orders and didn't hammer, tho'.

King Twelvesixteen:

Who says I'm not gonna hammer you? I'm totally about to hammer you. Like, you have one more post to defend yourself before I hammer. The next step is likely for you to fail to defend yourself adequetly and then I hammer you.

I don't like this. We're trying to stop people from quickhammering, you accuse TS of being overzealous of it, and the next breath you say you're willing to do that, and it's mostly because he blew off your arguments. It reads contradictory, which reads scummy, because scum like quickhammers. They don't mind accusing others of what they could be responsible of with a 'well, he was going to do it!' You went from null leaning town to null leaning scum here.

Here's what'd I'd ask of you. Lay out your TS case, point by point. If you have ISO him, do it. Give us analysis of what you find scummy most versus someone of the other townsfolk.

Foresti:

I see you defending Charlie. Give me your reasoning why Charlie is obviously a town read for you. True null (slight town lean due to suspecting someone not one of the main suspects). Charlie or TS flipping town or scum might throw this one way or another depending on future behavior.

Dazzy:

I'd like your scum reads with a short explanation as to why. I don't pick up anything scummy from you, and you're reading town. New town, but very obviously town.

FarmeriXi:

Can't get a good read on you. What do you think of all this?

Your post #127:

Ok, I just realised something. The reason I felt fine with lynching TS so quickly when I felt it was scummy for him to want to lynch Charlie so early was that I was thinking of quicklynches being scummy mainly because the person being lynched couldn't defend themselves, since they died so quickly, and because a general bit of "not enough stuff has happened in the day yet" sometimes, but there is another reason it is scummy that I didn't really think much about until Forseti pointed it out, that it is scummy because nobody can comment on the lynch.

That is why I seemed to contradict myself,

TS responded to my case with a horribly bad "defense," and there had been enough talking for me to get some good reads in, so at the time I didn't think it would be anti-town or anything to lynch him.

Of course now that I know the other reason, and think of it as a good reason (which it is), I will be more careful with my lynches and blah blah moral of the story blah.

While maybe not directly "stopping" you, it seems my accusation forced you to vomit up that mea culpa. Also, explain yourself: you said you thought it'd be OK to do it on Page 7, never took TS to L-1, and then accused me when I hammered on Page 12.

5. Then why didn't you reveal it Twilight 1? If it didn't matter...You know, this entire argument is a WIFOM.

6. Let me explain to you the inconsistency here: You have claimed VT. You said you would comment on the goings on the following Day. When asked about it, you said it was to prevent scum (namely me by your accusation) from NKing you. As a VT, you have nothing to protect, and it's not in your best interest to conceal information from town. So either you're a really bad townie, or a scum that realized his opportunity to softclaim was gone.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

1) If Mute's the most scummy, why are you voting me? Honestly, if you are saying Mute's the most scummy,

why isn't your vote on the most scummy player?

Oh, if you're trying to turn this into why I'm not voting Mute: investigated guilty scum>unknown probable scum. Always.

guh...wha? Ghostlin

CLAIMED COP WITH A GUILTY ON ME!

Why would either of us not be voting the other?!!?

The whole point is that Ghostlin is trying to get his partner Mute off of the lynchblock tommorow in case he(Ghostlin) dies, which is seeming pretty likely to me since Charlie hasn't been fooled and I think Dazzy hasn't been either. Mute is also lookin' pretty bussy from his last post on Ghostlin, so the third vote might even come from there...

...
3) Then what do you have? The TS and Mer cases which you agree on needed to happen but disagree with the timing of (and frankly, I don't see your point about the Mer case, I didn't hammer, just put him at L-2)? Shall I quote that to you? Misreps?

You've misrepped people too.

My 'lie', which is more of an exaggeration?

?
Did I ever say Ghostlin's role in the Mer case was scummy? I don't think I did...
OH! I remember. I called Ghostlin's setting-up of Mer-the-claimed-PR's lynch day-1 as scummy. Ghostlin also misrepping him and stuff. I never called his vote on Mer scummy as far as I can remember though.

Ignoring the point to focus on something unrelated?

Check

.

Exaggeration is just a fancy way people justify their lies. Well, it can also be used for jokes and stuff, but mostly lying.
Also, that wasn't an exaggeration, it was just a plain-ole lie.

@Underlined: Once again attempting to justify his own scumyness by saying others are scummy as well.

4) My post: #122

...

Your post #127:

...

While maybe not directly "stopping" you, it seems my accusation forced you to vomit up that mea culpa. Also, explain yourself: you said you thought it'd be OK to do it on Page 7, never took TS to L-1, and then accused me when I hammered on Page 12.

So, Ghostlin made me realise on a big meta-level or whatever that quicklynches were bad because

other people couldn't comment on it

in addition to the other 2 reasons I thought it was scummy. Now he is trying to use me almost quick-lynching because I didn't think of that reason as a reason why him

quicklynching before everyone could comment on stuff that happened

makes him less scummy?
Contr-o-diction.
(Also, justifying bad behavior other behavior bad blah blah ect.)

"Not directly stopping" looks more like "didn't have anything to do with the lack of a quicklynch" to me.

5. Then why didn't you reveal it Twilight 1? If it didn't matter...You know, this entire argument is a WIFOM.

It wouldn't be WIFOM if Ghostlin could give a scum motivation instead of just saying that there is one.

6. Let me explain to you the inconsistency here: You have claimed VT. You said you would comment on the goings on the following Day. When asked about it, you said it was to prevent scum (namely me by your accusation) from NKing you. As a VT, you have nothing to protect, and it's not in your best interest to conceal information from town. So either you're a really bad townie, or a scum that realized his opportunity to softclaim was gone.

???
Not being able to softclaim is why scum would do what I did? What?

[Dazzy]

My promised case on King is below. It's... pretty lame actually. I had a lot of trouble finding stuff to call him on that was specific. Call it confirmation bias or me being shitty or whatever, but I find myself understanding King's position in several cases. While several incidents do stand out, nothing strikes me as purely scum. He didn't have a whole lot of activity D2, but then neither did I. People get busy, and really, D2 was freaking short. Even using Ghost's case as inspiration, I found myself dismissing several of those contained arguments. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I believe King is town. Though it's possible this has been an epic bussing war, I don't think that very likely. Anyways, here it is, very simple because I don't feel like a lot more is necessary.

D1:
Says that he disapproves of tactics such as gxw's reaction fishing. Why town would disapprove of something meant to find scum...
Expresses suspicion of Charlie, but

no vote

. Later votes after vote count issue (L-1).
Unvotes, States intention to hammer TS based on quotes and not much else. Not a ton of original content at this point.

...
And, oh yeah? Rushing a lynch is scummy.

Who says I'm not gonna hammer you? I'm totally about to hammer you. Like, you have one more post to defend yourself before I hammer. The next step is likely for you to fail to defend yourself adequetly and then I hammer you.

Oh, and the reason I have switched from "I agree with no lynching immediatly" to "lynch TS" is because he ignored like 3/4 of my entire giant argument, then said that there was no Dazzy case to counter the other 1/4, which is a flat-out lie, and His explanations for "not looking back and checking" don't jive with me.
...

Interesting, rushing a lynch is scummy, but he will hammer TS after one more post - on page 5...

Claims ignorance on why his almost-lynch was improper. Seems like he's backpedalling here, but could just be self-conscious town.
Never goes back to voting TS, though expresses suspicions. Apparently Farmer/Mer > TS
Assumes he won't die.
Ends D1 with vote on Farmer(Mer) (OMGUS?)

D2:
Says he would vote Mer/agrees he has to die,

but doesn't actually vote

Effectively calls me (Dazzy) cop.
Twilight: Calls flip of Mer

D3:
Lots of fighting with Ghost. Hard to find stuff in here. Not sure I agree with Ghost's points here.

Summary/Bird's eye:
King has had irregular voting patterns, but has been on

neither

mislynch wagon. His near-hammer of TS was very awkward, but I've read King as very emotional all game. This continues that trend. Recent re-read didn't give me any real scum-gut feelings on him in terms of timing or theme. In terms of content... not a hell of a lot of scum stuff here that I can see.

Conclusion: King is town.
--------------------------------------------------

I'm very confident right now that Ghostlin is scum. Once Mute has given us a bit more content, I'd be comfortable placing my vote on him barring any new revelations.

I can give a more in-depth explanation of why I think Ghost is scum (this is not just POE) if someone would like that. I'll probably post it anyways sometime soon.

King:
Promotes discussion by bringing up interesting points
Very active, asks questions, uses actual evidence (ie quotes)
No Wagons
Gut

Ghost:
Asks directed questions which apply pressure
Active
Creates dissension, ie. Accuses three people in same posts of scummy stuff, asks others to comment on it.
"Shit disturbing"
Both mislynch wagons
All of D2... setup arguments don't sit right
D3 - Cop claim gives great excuse for scummy actions. Too great almost...

Based on the reading I've done lately, I have been slowly moving away from being comfortable with Charlie as town. As I said earlier, his and Ghost's claims match up

very

nicely. If Ghost is lying scum, that throws Charlie's alignment (something that my gut has been complaining about) back into question. Because I don't want to assume that I'll survive the night if Ghost's lynch is the right move, I plan to post a pseudo-case on why I find it likely that Charlie is Ghost's scumbuddy during D3 (today). In light of this, I'd appreciate it if no one would vote/lynch until that is posted. I will have a lot more time in the near future, so you guys shouldn't have to worry bout more delays.

A quick teaser - Assuming Ghostlin is NOT the cop, and Charlie is the Doc, the mafia cannot have an RB. Yet, Meransiel, a claimed PR, was not killed on N1... In the words of Ghost, when answering why a claimed PR would be left alive (I asked that question with this in mind): "Generally speaking: you either have a roleblocker, or the person claiming the role is scum. The other scenario of 'praying for a mislynch' is loaded with WIFOM, and most scumteams won't optimally go for it...". Meransiel was not scum. That means that there is (most likely) an RB. That's impossible IF CHARLIE IS THE DOCTOR.

Cheers.

[Ghostlin]

A few specific points:

1) Twilight 1: King says will comment on goings on the previous night on Day 2.

Day 2: Gets called out for presuming he'll survive. Says he did it to avoid the NK and hence to avoid scum killing him.

Day 3: Claims VT.

Here's the problem: As a VT, King wouldn't have a reason to not draw an NK. His Day 2 claim that he was avoiding scum killing him is indicative of a PR: yet he doesn't claim one once I claim Cop. Either this is really bad Town play (which would be hard to believe since that King has played well as either alignment), this is scum play that abandoned a PR soft claim.

This is the scum motivation for doing this: King needed an excuse for saying he was going to stay alive Day 2 to explain his feelings on the nights actions to us. He knew he was going to be alive Day 2. Thing is, his argument doesn't make logical sense.

2) Voting someone just on the reason that they claimed Cop with a guilty on you and then saying someone else is more scummy devalues your vote a little. If this was a Day 2 claim, and not in Lylo, I'd encourage you to lynch me and watch you reverse out of it when I flip what I'm going to.

3) Whatever. I'm tired of arguing this specific point with you. You posted a retraction for voting Day 5 after I posted a longish post saying how much I didn't like it. Either it had a direct affect on your 127 or it didn't, but it sure reads that it did. It both can't have anything to do with lack of a quicklynch and be a 'oh, I guess that was scummy, here are my reasons' at the same time.

Also, pushing a quicklynch is scummy, but King was ready to participate in one. Contradiction? Wanted to confess you were scum on Page 5? What exactly would of possessed King to post what he did? Oh, that's right, TS's defense was dismissive and scummy.

4) You know, Mer seemed to call me scum with the only reason being that I hammered the previous day. When asked about it, he never really gave me much of a good reason. Then he continued to say my lack of concern about TS was scummy: while part of it was an act, bluntly: TS acted pretty scummy the previous Day, my other wagon (Charlie) had puttered out and I wasn't going to devote a vote to Mer at that point. I did say I was not happy TS was town, but a lynch had to happen. Mer rode me the entire day, almost getting one of town mod killed for his bah post, which I can only assume contained an accusation about me.

A quick teaser - Assuming Ghostlin is NOT the cop, and Charlie is the Doc, the mafia cannot have an RB. Yet, Meransiel, a claimed PR, was not killed on N1... In the words of Ghost, when answering why a claimed PR would be left alive (I asked that question with this in mind): "Generally speaking: you either have a roleblocker, or the person claiming the role is scum. The other scenario of 'praying for a mislynch' is loaded with WIFOM, and most scumteams won't optimally go for it...". Meransiel was not scum. That means that there is (most likely) an RB. That's impossible IF CHARLIE IS THE DOCTOR.

Let's actually run with this argument for a minute. Presuming I wasn't talking out of my hat for a minute (and I generally wouldn't be about something you could investigate yourself): the danger a Cop or Doc holds to scum is great and only gets greater over time. So either scum set up Mer: which would be risky, protecting/investigating the right person by pulling names hovers around 1 out 7; a Cop 2 out of 7 (you can't protect yourself, and if you don't know you're town without an investigation, I can't help you) which is why I said it's less than optimal, particularly if Mer survived the Day 2 lynch, a doctor would have something like a 1 out of 5 chance to protect the right person after a failed protect Day 1, a Cop a 2 out of 4 or 2 out of 5 chance (you investigate every night as a Cop. Period. Plus the Cop has one investigation he's not going to redo, two dead bodies, and himself.)

What that means, is I had the following list at the End of Day 2: Mute, Dazzy, King1216, tclawren (I'm not going to investigate Charlie, who I investigated N1, and again, investigating myself as town is silly). I had a 50% chance of town or scum at this point. So in other words almost 30% on Night 1 and you get a confirmed innocent as a Cop even if you don't mess it up epically, and almost 20% of giving town a half Day on Night 2. (There has been a doctor who gave us two protects; giving us a full mislynch in a game I played. We still lost.)

That's what I mean by suboptimal. As in, no scum team in the WORLD would be well assured enough to play the numbers. (Which, by the way, if you ever do play Cop, don't hit your scum suspect Day 2; try to find an innocent.)

Anyhow: so three options exist.

1) Scum played suboptimally. I don't see this happening on any of our teams that are possible by setup, but I guess it could happen. In which case, either Charlie or I could be lying. (Alternatively, I'll lump there's a PR that someone didn't claim here. This would be suboptimal now and I can't see anyone doing it.)
2) Mer was RBed. We are both telling the truth.
3) Mer was RBed. We are both lying, having somehow divined that there were no other PRs.

If you accept that scum (or anyone else) haven't been playing sub-optimally this game, then Charlie and I are the scum team or we're the Doctor and the Cop.

If you accept Charlie's town and the doc, you must accept I'm the Cop unless someone left Mer alive suboptimally. If you don't (and I recommend you not doing this) then you must accept that we're scum.

[Mute]

Sorry for not having something posted last night guys, but there's two reasons for it. One reason was I was distracted with other things, like xbox and pokemon, because after a while I got stuck and confused while reading the thread over.

The second reason's more important. Something happened that I can't figure out how to interpret. =|

...

...

Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor?

He didn't claim as much as I read.

That's suspicious you'd say so.

...

...
My next post was a

simple question about information that no one would of known from the information in front of them.

...

Looks more like an accusation to me. Oh, and also?

The cop would think of the other claimed PR as the doctor.

That was, you know, the entire point of my accusation. That cop-Dazzy would think of a softclaimed PR as the doctor. Saying it is suspicious is also incorrect, as the

scum

are not aware of what roles the town has at their disposal, so no scum-hunting could come from it.

Hmph, Mer has been more scummy than you though. Fakeclaiming before death and then saying he is a VT, ugh...

Also you didn't answer my "What the heck are you talking about" question, you know, the one that asks why, if you think I am trying to protect Mer because we are scumbuddies, that

you are only going to be looking into me if he turns out to be town.

Also, King.

The issue is that Mer claimed there were two

goons

, not simply scum. This is seen in his ISO 26, as pointed out in Mute's #310

Seemed like something quick I could clear up.

Oooooh. Yeah, that is really suspicious.


I just want to make it official here: I agree that Mer has to die, he has been far to scummy to let live. I have merely been apprehensive about it because

my other big scum read is Ghostlin

[/b], and there is no way both of them are scum.

Eh, seems my death is inevitable then. Just...don't let Ghostlin fool you, guys. And, I wish you good luck at lylo!

You're giving up at L-2?

I take it back. That's not scummy at all. *sarcasm*

Mute said he would hammer if he got to L-1, so he was essentially at L-1 at that point. The only reason Mer hasn't been hammered yet is that the mod hasn't made an official vote-count that says "L-1" on it.

BLAH NINJAD

This is post #368. This is after Ghost's supposed breadcrumbing in #361.
What I am having a hard time gathering is the bolded, specifically. The post where Ghost said he'd check King if Mer flipped town? #355.

It's the sequence of these events that has me so confounded. Ghost says he'll investigate King should Mer flip town. Ghost makes his breadcrumb that he's the cop ("S-C-U-M I A-M A-M C-O-P"). King then says he'll be investigated. Then the bold&underlined (which for whatever reason never bolded no matter how I tried in previewing this post time and again) portion comes into mind, in that King says Ghost's his top scum suspect..

For now while I try and organize what I do have in my post proper I wanted to say this. Right now Ghost I am having a hard time buying your claim. Something in my gut's telling me it isn't right, in that I feel it was a bit too orchestrated. I do not feel that your crumbing for clearing Charlie was efficient enough as you only do so after his mini-VCA and him arguing with Meran and his WIFOM-y arguments at that time. King's damning points are how he was posting in twilight-D1 about how he'll comment on something D2, which I've already posted about the folly in that. Then there's him applying pressure to Meran but not putting a vote down on him.. I don't know anymore.

For that reason I'm not comfortable yet to place a vote on either player. I feel that one of three scenarios are likely:
1) Ghost is scum.
2) King is scum.
3) BOTH are scum.
and in LyLo this isn't a good thing. Right now, however, I'm more leaning to #1, however, the margin between 1 and 2 isn't wide enough for me to be safe with voting Ghost or King yet.

[Charlie]

Let me ask you a question that's a bit WIFOMsque, Charlie: Stop and think about this for a minute: TClaw was fairly convinced I was town. King was screaming bloody murder Day 2 that I wasn't town. His entire reasoning for not airing his suspicions Twilight 1 was he was afraid if I was scum I'd NK him. Two things I wanna ask you as the IC:

1) First off, as a VT, why would he be afraid to die? He

didn't

claim a PR, and outside of lylo, VT's have not much to lose.
2) Why would it be more optimal if you accept Ghostlin=scum, for me to get rid of a player who had less suspicion of me than than King did? Also, Foresti never suspected me of anything N1 and was not and active player. Besides WIFOM, what's my motive for killing a possible mislynch?

1) I... honestly don't quite follow. Didn't claim a PR means... that he didn't claim a PR. That's that.
2) You tell me, I'm not you.

Those questions are difficult to answer, IC or not.

[Ghostlin]

1) Mute: I said I'd take a look if Mer flipped town at King mostly because of two things: 1) I was thinking King was scum before Mer's flip, and that he was pulling off a chainsaw defense. That would be grossly less likely if Mer flipped town, so King might in fact be town despite the scum read I had on him. 2) This is going to sound weird, but I was looking equally for an innocent, because that would of proved the setup had Charlie also stayed alive, and I made a guess that TClaw was mostly likely going to be the NK that night.

(Explanation: in a five person Lylo there are two townies (for our purposes) a Cop, and two scum. One of the townies is confirmed to the Cop. If he gets a townie confirm on another player that's still alive, the remaining players are the scum team.)

2) Charlie: what I'm getting at with the first question is the folly of saying you're afraid to die to the night kill as a VT when pro town players are the only ones that are going to. It would seem to me an aborted soft claim of sorts, or an excuse that King needed to justify his comment at the end of Twilight 1. A townie, unless very new to the game wouldn't say it. Now, you could argue this is King's case, but he's played very well: and I'd rather go with sinister competence rather than the newbie card in his case.
The second question is more at looking at the NKs, which is nebulous WIFOM, but I'll try to point it out:

@Ghostlin

A few things.

The speed with which the wagon built up was a major factor, for one thing. I could tie that into my off-site experience, perhaps. Where I usually play, day one wagons on scum tend to be a lot slower to build up and a lot harder to get over the finish line, so a very quick wagon with someone declaring hammer-intent on someone tends to be something that sets off alarm bells in my head.

Secondly, as I've already stated, I could see where Charlie could look like he was role-fishing... but my immediate instinct about the questions when I saw them was that they were reaction-bait, it felt to me like he was throwing hooks in the water to see if something snapped on it.

I wasn't thrilled by KingTwelveSixteen's vote, I said why, and I still disagree with his rebuttal.

Dazzy's post, any my resulting vote ended up discussed to death (Or ignored to death, pick your preference). I was satisfied with his responses to an extent, and recognised that an error in my vote-counting contributed to my read. As it is, I'm leaning town on him now, but that would switch were Charlie to be lynched and flip town.

The TS vote... I still think that was OMGUS couched in hazy reasoning as I said at the time, and not TS's first (or last) exhibiting of it, and after the recent interactions, I feel he's a far better lynch than Charlie at this point for a variety of reasons.

My read on Charlie, as it stands, is leaning town, and most of that has little to actually do with his own play as it is the way that people have reacted to him and tried to push the wagon on him over the line. As such, it's a read that's subject to change, but it would need a stronger case than currently has been put forth.

KingTwelveSixteen: What I meant by the hammering thing was that gxw is supposedly willing to drop the hammer at this stage, which strikes me as utterly ludicrous this early.

Also, I would argue he set out his vote on TS with a certain amount of caution. Using your vote on your lead suspect =/= scummy in and of itself, and given the nature of the wagon, and given the context of his interaction with me in the leadup to it, making it perfectly obvious and plain that it's going to L-2 at that point seemed like a fairly logical thing to do.

Would you say YOU were showing recklessness or caution by putting Charlie to L-1 and shouting loudly that it was, in fact, L-1? I see little difference in the scenarios, other than the vote count. Especially not since you've been also stating your caution about doing certain things because of your past game experience. Either he made one reckless move, in which case you've been as reckless, if not more so, or what you did wasn't all that reckless, and if yours wasn't, his CERTAINLY wasn't given that TS was further away from a lynch than Charlie is.

Ghostlin: I didn't think that his questions were set out with the purposeful intent of role-fishing when I first saw them, if anything I think they were badly chosen reaction-bait. I can understand why it might be interpreted as they have been, and I could understand a couple of the votes on him a hell of a lot more if that was the platform those votes were standing on, but they aren't, and I don't interpret a lot of the other stated reasons for voting Charlie right now standing up under scrutiny.

I also don't see anything with pure role-fishing intentions being done that blatantly.

Now TClaw claimed King was town with his reads at the end of the day, but he mentioned they would change. The most interesting thing about TClaw's read was when he asked King point blank why he didn't accuse me about the hammer at Twilight AND his opinion that the TS hammer was protown.

I'm saying that there's more motive for a King scum team lynch with the NK's (N1: Alleviating suspicion off himself, N2: creating suspicion and eliminating a townie that would of supported me, possibly, or not: we'll never know) then there seems to be motive in me doing it besides WIFOM. That's neblous, but there it is.

[Charlie]

Ghostlin, I'm pretty sure you've said you investigated King in the hope that he is Town. What's with your first reply to Mute in the above? I know you explained in your second part, but I find your ambivalence suspicious.

I have to say that I don't share your belief that King made an aborted soft claim. I think you're trying just a bit too hard as to sound convincing here, which further makes me doubt your Cop claim.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin, I'm pretty sure you've said you investigated King in the hope that he is Town. What's with your first reply to Mute in the above? I know you explained in your second part, but I find your ambivalence suspicious.

I have to say that I don't share your belief that King made an aborted soft claim. I think you're trying just a bit too hard as to sound convincing here, which further makes me doubt your Cop claim.

Bluntly: There was no reason for King to be concerned about his life going into Day 2 as a VT. The explanation of that for withholding info T1 is lame, doesn't match his claim, and reeks of scum even if there's not a soft claim involved. No one else would of been convinced they lived till Day 2 to share the information.

As for my first part of the reply:

1) I was thinking King was scum before Mer's flip, and that he was pulling off a chainsaw defense. That would be grossly less likely if Mer flipped town, so King might in fact be town despite the scum read I had on him.

Chainsaw Defense (Tarhalindur Version)
The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".
The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.
The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.
The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.
UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

In English, had Mer flipped scum, I would have additional grounds to suspect King for scum: Mer's flip had forced me to consider King town (rather, a null worth investigating) because it wouldn't be a trustworthy scum tell with Mer as town anymore. (In other words, accusing King of chainsaw defending Day 2 doesn't hold water in a world where Mer is town.)

[Dazzy]

Alright.

So I think I've heard enough, and I don't know that there's much more to be said at this point. I think we're still waiting for something from Mute, but barring any major revelations, this is me stating my intention to vote Ghostlin. If there are any objections, let me know and I'll consider them.

If everyone wants to post suspicions on potential scumbuddies before the lynch occurs, I think that would be prudent considering any one of us townies could die tonight.

Mine will be up shortly.

[Charlie]

Uh... No, Dazzy. We must lynch correctly for there to be a Night 3.
As for the most likely person not to survive said Night...

[Dazzy]

I'm aware of that Charlie. Are you trying to imply that lynching Ghost would not be lynching correctly? Because I seem to remember you stating your intention to vote him.

That post was made under the assumption that Ghost is scum, and the game will not end with his lynch. If he isn't then obviously nothing matters anymore. However, if Ghost is scum, then he has a partner, and one of the people who is not his partner will die tonight. I am proposing that we all put out there who we consider most likely to be Ghost's scumbuddy before N3 so that we don't have a situation where someone with valuable insight is unable to post it.

Not sure I see the motivation for your last line there. Maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say.

[Dazzy]

Unless this is supposed to be one of those situations where it's best to just withhold all info until the next day (like MyLo?)...