The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[GreyICE]

MEH

NO

I HAVE QUESTION NOW. QUESTION BE ANSWERED

THEN VOTE. TOMORROWS VOTE MAY BE DECIDED BY QUESTION

[Lord Fonzi]

Is da bear any better? Perhaps not, but she seems to be trying to put some content in her posts, and Fonzi doesn't even seem to mention her. Just harass people on the FES wagon and me to vote bear. "FES is a bad wagon for day 2! Try some gummybear, lecture fucking GreyICE on fucking lurking being a scumtell." (HI I'M GREYICE I MIGHTA MADE THIS POINT ONCE OR TWICE)

I haven't got a fucking clue about your meta, GreyICE. What should be known to everyone is that I, and Yos, are the names most synonymous with this line of thinking on MS. So you can hardly be surprised when I push it. You're continuing to strawman the case against gummy as if it's only about lurking.

Fonzi:

Reasons that FES is town and GummyBear is scum. Lurking will officially be ignored as a reason, that applies equally. GO.

GO

GO DAMMIT

Fine. Although bear in mind, while we hold the 'reasons Gummy is scummy' part in common, the 'reasons FES is town' part are only advocated by the head not currently posting. Essentially, we are pushing Gummy together as a compromise because both of us find him scummy, while we're completely at odds over FES. I'm willing to vote GB precisely because in addition to lurking and his reaction to it, I think he's FES' buddy. Their stated scumreads for a long time have been YosCayke, FES, BW/SVT, but they haven't been willing to vote FES when there was ample opportunity to. My partner thinks FES is town, but thinks GB is scummy mostly because of his Yos case, and a possible tie to Balam. Gummy's stated suspicions feel strange, since they are joining with one 'top read,' Yos, in attacking another, BW. In addition, we feel that pretty much any argument against BW/SVT (whose entry I like) applies more to GB themselves.

Our collective ambivalence about FES comes from one head's very strong feeling that they are playing in accordance with the meta that the head who has played with CES before has of him as town, and in addition, his defence of himself today is exactly what he would have expected from that pair as town. He thinks the FES case is, essentially, a crappy day one-esque playstyle wagon that needs to go away.

[Greymarble]

Bah!

That actually makes some sense. See balam, that's reasoning from one side and the other? Not this "Agar thinks X, RayFrost thinks Y?"

That being said, the meta case? Bullshit.

P.S. If FES's playstyle is to be totally unreadable, town or scum, then it's time to say "I dun care. " I've been accused of being hard to read, but it was because I read as

town

when I was scum. Not because I always read as meh.

That being said I don't even find the meta case that convincing, and the last 'unvote, vote' just seems like a 'well, better play to my town meta' more than anything else.

Screw it.

Vote: Frogito Ergo Scum

I'll always preferentially lynch slots that are scum-ish and posting no content over slots that are scum-ish and posting lots of content. I can learn more later about the slot posting lots, I'll never know anything much about the slot proddodging.

[Lord Fonzi]

Vote: Frogito Ergo Scum

I'll always preferentially lynch slots that are scum-ish and posting no content over slots that are scum-ish and posting lots of content. I can learn more later about the slot posting lots, I'll never know anything much about the slot proddodging.

This I totally agree with. I'd kinda like to see some CES scum meta to be honest, because I doubt it's THAT different.

I know that Shanba lurks as scum (and uses the schoolwork excuse) from our last completed game where we were buddies.

Fwiw, the looking for gaps between posting thing you did there is something I do a ton of as town (see Simpsons Mafia). It comes from Mafia in Mendo, where YThill noted that the scum were posting once per prod period. It's something that I think's a huge scumtell. But dammit, we set out to play this game under collective responsibility, and we're going to. Undoubtedly, Gurgi can make his own case more effectively than I.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Oh, and just to note, given that last bit of rampant opportunism, this head will definitely prefer a FES lynch to a spot one if it comes to that.

Consider that Spot is our #2 suspect (we've made this abundantly clear). Consider that the FDwagon isn't going anywhere. Can you say with a straight face that voting for Spot in this situation isn't obviously the right thing to do for us?

I've put up with enough bullshittery voting from FES in [REDACTED ONGOING GAME] he gets his ass lynched out of this one.

Don't be a twatdonkey.

Congratulations, when poked and prodded enough you can begin to act vaguely pro-town. Why does it takes pokes and prods?

It doesn't. We were aware of the problem before you asked us (I don't forget my guiding philosophy when scum!) and vote change would've happened regardless of your little "game".

I'm not willing to lynch GummyBear at this point in time because they actually have a wider range of stances and reasons behind them, whereas Appleface has locked themselves onto a single pair without even mentioning anyone else except... let's see, Unicorn Brethren (town) and Super Vanilla Townie (bad lynch, worse than random). I probably shouldn't be accusing Greymarble of tunneling whilst these guys are still alive.

You can add town reads to YosCayke and Copper (he played much scummier in our earlier game) to that list if you want.

P.S. If FES's playstyle is to be totally unreadable, town or scum, then it's time to say "I dun care. " I've been accused of being hard to read, but it was because I read as town when I was scum. Not because I always read as meh.

Totally unreadable, as evidenced by the fact that quite a lot of people have non-null reads on us? I (CES) may play ultra-concisely occasionally, but there is very litte basis for that claim otherwise.

That being said I don't even find the meta case that convincing, and the last 'unvote, vote' just seems like a 'well, better play to my town meta' more than anything else.

I totally do that as scum too.

I'd kinda like to see some CES scum meta to be honest, because I doubt it's THAT different.

These two are probably most useful in that regard.

[Lord Fonzi]

Oh, and just to note, given that last bit of rampant opportunism, this head will definitely prefer a FES lynch to a spot one if it comes to that.

Consider that Spot is our #2 suspect (we've made this abundantly clear). Consider that the FDwagon isn't going anywhere. Can you say with a straight face that voting for Spot in this situation isn't obviously the right thing to do for us?

But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.

[quote="Frogito Ergo Sum"

I'd kinda like to see some CES scum meta to be honest, because I doubt it's THAT different.

These two are probably most useful in that regard.[/quote]

Thanks.

[TheButtonmen]

The "Afternoon Fades Into Evening" Vote Count:

FrogErgoSum (5): Final Destination, DaSpot, Copper, Balam, Greymarble
DaSpot (3): YosFlavouredCayke, SuperVanillaTownie, FrogErgoSum
SuperVanillaTownie (1): Gummybear
Gummybear (1): LordFonzi
Copper (1): Unicorn

With eleven alive it's six to lynch.

DEADLINE: Day Two ends Saturday April 9th at 19:00 EST.

[GreyICE]

So why spot? Honestly, why flip to him? I just don't feel this spot = scum bit. Or this FD = scum, but that's less relevant.

[Lord Fonzi]

What really stands out from the CESmeta is that he is willing to bus hard and early, even tunnel on his partner, as scum, in one game with a liberal amount of hopping off his buddy halfway through the day to join a successful town wagon. Doesn't make me think FES is town, but does make me wonder about FD... of course, these are the scum games CES WANTED us to see, so there's a lot of WIFOM there.

He was accused of votehopping in the scum games, so it's not a town tell.

[Shanba]

We've been explaining all damn day we think daspot is scummy. Are you even reading our posts any more? We switched because there was a wagon on him.

Gah.

[IceyCupcake]

Unvote

Not lynching without marble input here.

[Greymarble]

Unvote

Not lynching without marble input here.

Oh for god sakes, these hydra things are an enormous pain in the balls.

[Lord Fonzi]

We switched because there was a wagon on him.

Well, quite.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.

Because there's a viable wagon that we agree with. You'd think that we'd be able to make a more useful vote than FD, but for the longest time the only genuinely viable wagons were the one on us and the one on BeaverWeasel.

of course, these are the scum games CES WANTED us to see

Here are the other two games I've played as scum since my return (as CES).

[Lord Fonzi]

But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.

Because there's a viable wagon that we agree with. You'd think that we'd be able to make a more useful vote than FD, but for the longest time the only genuinely viable wagons were the one on us and the one on BeaverWeasel.

Well, adding a second vote to a one-fer makes it a wagon. Though re-reading your iso does somewhat, albeit not entirely, mitigate the 'there they go joining another big wagon without adding anything new' feeling that was my initial reaction.

[Yosarian2]

We apologize profusely for taking forever to post again. :/ Real life sucks.

YFC’s 413 is not good. You continue to insist that your obvtown read on Pathetric should’ve been agreed upon by everyone, which is nonsensical at best. Due to the simple fact that not everyone (I don’t remember how many it was, but I don’t think there were very many) agreed with that read, you should know that it’s clearly not obvious.

(shrug) I still hold that any decent pro-town player who was paying proper attention to the game should have got an obvtown read of of Ether. I also still think that everyone who voted her on day 1 should explain themselves, because I still don't understand any reasonable pro-town thought process that could have lead to the incorrect conclusion of "Ether is scum". I don't know how to make this any more clear.

Your presistance in attacking me for getting a correct town read off of someone who's basically legendary for being easy to get correct town reads off of is becoming increasingly odd here.

As to your second point: You thought she was obvtown. What better reason is there for scum to kill someone?

That's possible, sure. That being said, she did get 3 votes at one point. Also, her clearly stated intention was to push for a Beaver lynch today; scum are always going to take that kind of thing into account, and if scum wanted a beaver mislynch, there's no reason they couldn't have left her alive and killed her the next day instead.

Is this kind of thing a 100% reliable scum tell? Of course not. But if you don't think that scum take that kind of thing into account at least to some extent when making their kill choices, you're crazy.

That said, YosC, can you please give your read on Gummybear?

By the end of day 1, I had a mild pro-town read on gummybear, for reasons I explained back then.

That being said, gummy's day 2 posting has been pretty terrible all around. Gummy bear has been slowly drifting down all day into and through my null category, and I'd currently consider them borderline scummy.

-Yos

[Yosarian2]

But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.

That's not how I read it. They were unwilling to vote for Beaver when that was the main other wagon, because they thought beaver was town. On the other hand, they made very clear back when DaSpot had no votes that they'd be willing to lynch him:

FinalDestination is not getting lynched today. Even if he is scum, your vote is not helping to lynch scum. You know this.

Frankly, none of our top suspects have a lot of votes. We're not going to compromise onto a wagon we view as strictly worse than our current wagon unless we have some pressing reason to - either because we believe the pressure will give interesting reactions or because there's a deadline or because the wagon isn't that much worse than our current one.

We would compromise onto a daspot wagon.

We may have been 3rd in the vote count for FES but who came up with that good as balls case? hmmm... oh right us.

If you're going to make this claim, back it up.

P.S. Yes, you were pushing the wagon.

Frogito Ergo Sum, in post 450, you pointed out a number of things from DaSpotthatkillsu's behavior toward Unicorn Brethren early on Day 1. Would the possibility that those 3 posts you linked in the first paragraph came from 2 different heads make any difference to your read?

'
No, it makes no difference to our read. We actually discussed it together when discussing daspot and came to the conclusion that one head is probably backtracking for the other's awful position.

Note that this attack on DaSpot, and this expressed willingess to vote for him, came at a point when daspot had zero votes. Hardly looks like a real attempt to get a counterwagon going.

I was expecting the FES jump on to the DaSpot wagon; it was quite clear that he was willing to do so from his previous post. The fact that people like Grey are attacking him for it now makes me wonder if people actually are even reading FES's posts. Grey's "FES is unreadable" comment is especially odd, and I'd like to hear it explained.

[Greymarble]

Hey Yos, you ever played a game with CES?

Unvote

,

Vote

It doesn't really help one get a big picture on whether he's town or scum.

[Lord Fonzi]

Can people please post with their freaking hydras?

[Greymarble]

What if I use a hydra... just the wrong one?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yeah; not long ago in this game I just linked to a game I just finished with him, when he was town.

He spent one long post where he attacked DaSpot and said he would "compromise on a daspot wagon", while he wouldn't compromise on most other wagons. Then, when a DaSpot wagon happened, he joined it, like he just said he would. What's so hard to read about that?

You can read a lot from a vote, from when someone votes, how they vote, what the context of the vote is, ect. It requires a little thought, but you can actually get a lot more information from a post that's just:

Vote: X

and nothing else then you can get from someone who makes posts that's a lot of gibberjabber but dosn't really say anything new and dosn't vote.

PPE: Sorry, Lord Fonzi. Didn't even realize I was posting from the wrong account until you said so. In fact, I was about to make a third post from Yosarian2 when I saw your post pop up.

To help out people doing ISO reads later in the game, I'll repost my last two posts in here. If you already read them, then ignore this.

But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.

That's not how I read it. They were unwilling to vote for Beaver when that was the main other wagon, because they thought beaver was town. On the other hand, they made very clear back when DaSpot had no votes that they'd be willing to lynch him:

FinalDestination is not getting lynched today. Even if he is scum, your vote is not helping to lynch scum. You know this.

Frankly, none of our top suspects have a lot of votes. We're not going to compromise onto a wagon we view as strictly worse than our current wagon unless we have some pressing reason to - either because we believe the pressure will give interesting reactions or because there's a deadline or because the wagon isn't that much worse than our current one.

We would compromise onto a daspot wagon.

We may have been 3rd in the vote count for FES but who came up with that good as balls case? hmmm... oh right us.

If you're going to make this claim, back it up.

P.S. Yes, you were pushing the wagon.

Frogito Ergo Sum, in post 450, you pointed out a number of things from DaSpotthatkillsu's behavior toward Unicorn Brethren early on Day 1. Would the possibility that those 3 posts you linked in the first paragraph came from 2 different heads make any difference to your read?

'
No, it makes no difference to our read. We actually discussed it together when discussing daspot and came to the conclusion that one head is probably backtracking for the other's awful position.

Note that this attack on DaSpot, and this expressed willingess to vote for him, came at a point when daspot had zero votes. Hardly looks like a real attempt to get a counterwagon going.

I was expecting the FES jump on to the DaSpot wagon; it was quite clear that he was willing to do so from his previous post. The fact that people like Grey are attacking him for it now makes me wonder if people actually are even reading FES's posts. Grey's "FES is unreadable" comment is especially odd, and I'd like to hear it explained.

We apologize profusely for taking forever to post again. :/ Real life sucks.

YFC’s 413 is not good. You continue to insist that your obvtown read on Pathetric should’ve been agreed upon by everyone, which is nonsensical at best. Due to the simple fact that not everyone (I don’t remember how many it was, but I don’t think there were very many) agreed with that read, you should know that it’s clearly not obvious.

(shrug) I still hold that any decent pro-town player who was paying proper attention to the game should have got an obvtown read of of Ether. I also still think that everyone who voted her on day 1 should explain themselves, because I still don't understand any reasonable pro-town thought process that could have lead to the incorrect conclusion of "Ether is scum". I don't know how to make this any more clear.

Your presistance in attacking me for getting a correct town read off of someone who's basically legendary for being easy to get correct town reads off of is becoming increasingly odd here.

As to your second point: You thought she was obvtown. What better reason is there for scum to kill someone?

That's possible, sure. That being said, she did get 3 votes at one point. Also, her clearly stated intention was to push for a Beaver lynch today; scum are always going to take that kind of thing into account, and if scum wanted a beaver mislynch, there's no reason they couldn't have left her alive and killed her the next day instead.

Is this kind of thing a 100% reliable scum tell? Of course not. But if you don't think that scum take that kind of thing into account at least to some extent when making their kill choices, you're crazy.

That said, YosC, can you please give your read on Gummybear?

By the end of day 1, I had a mild pro-town read on gummybear, for reasons I explained back then.

That being said, gummy's day 2 posting has been pretty terrible all around. Gummy bear has been slowly drifting down all day into and through my null category, and I'd currently consider them borderline scummy.

-Yos

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

Okay, this half of the hydra is getting spotty (get it?) internet access, but I'll keep it short. The people on our wagon are:
A guy who OMGUS'd because we were supposedly OMGUS'ing
A guy who FoS'd us because a post "seemed suspicious" despite his admitting that the opposite would have been scummier
A guy who we've been trying to get lynched for this whole day

So...don't listen to them.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Okay, this half of the hydra is getting spotty (get it?) internet access, but I'll keep it short. The people on our wagon are:
A guy who OMGUS'd because we were supposedly OMGUS'ing
A guy who FoS'd us because a post "seemed suspicious" despite his admitting that the opposite would have been scummier
A guy who we've been trying to get lynched for this whole day

So...don't listen to them.

I asked you why you were defending Beaver, and you invented a whole bullshit case against me rather then answer my question, at least at first. That is OMGUS, at least in the general sense; you were attacking me as a way to defend yourself (or, in this case, to avoid having to explain yourself). OMGUS dosn't just mean "you're voting me because I voted you", it can be any behavior along the lines of using fake and insincere scumhunting to counterattack someone who is attacking you.

And now you're doing it again here. Rather then respond to the logical reasons to suspect you, you're just trying to attack everyone who's attacking you. Your second one is especially bad:

A guy who FoS'd us because a post "seemed suspicious" despite his admitting that the opposite would have been scummier

since you're trying to discredit SVT now because he voted you, even though your last several posts have been defending him.



By the way, you still have yet to explain this post:

Posting because QT need attention (HINT)

also,

DaSpot has seemed to be activly trying to prevent a Beaver-lynch today

.... has anyone else noticed this? anyone?

nice try there yoscayke. nice. try.

*woosh*

Now that you've admitted that you were, in fact, actively trying to defend beaver and prevent a beaver lynch, can you explain why you reacted this way to me pointing this out? If you were defending beaver because you honestly think he's town, why were you so you reluctant to just say so and explain why, instead of responding with this "Nice try" bs, or with the BS case you tried to use in your next post to avoid answering the question? It really looks to me like you wanted to defend beaver, but didn't want anyone to notice you were doing so.

[Copper]

It doesn't. We were aware of the problem before you asked us (I don't forget my guiding philosophy when scum!) and vote change would've happened regardless of your little "game".

I take it you won't be participating in the final round then?

The final round consists of explaining why it is FD hasn't taken this opportunity to turn on the afterburners? Just why is it that FD is absent as your wagon reaches its precipice?

(For bonus points, you may place a bet on which player between UB and GummyBear will end up taking the most time to provide something useful in a game facing quite an important juncture.)

---

I asked you why you were defending Beaver, and you invented a whole bullshit case against me rather then answer my question, at least at first. That is OMGUS, at least in the general sense; you were attacking me as a way to defend yourself (or, in this case, to avoid having to explain yourself). OMGUS dosn't just mean "you're voting me because I voted you", it can be any behavior along the lines of using fake and insincere scumhunting to counterattack someone who is attacking you.

And now you're doing it again here. Rather then respond to the logical reasons to suspect you, you're just trying to attack everyone who's attacking you. Your second one is especially bad

[...]

since you're trying to discredit SVT now because he voted you, even though your last several posts have been defending him.

We can't help but acknowledge the logic behind this. There's a sense of panic, again, coming from DaSpot's slot. We've never been sold on the idea that this hydra has been a mixture of two players trying to work their way through the game, only that some of their posts didn't necessarily jive with the outright label of fraudulent. Post 621 is just fear-based motivation in spades. I'd ask players like Greymarble specifically to take a good hard look at not just the text itself, but the overall intention behind this sort of over-simplified and insincere defense here. This could be something here from a player who senses it's time to take his foot off the accelerator with some sort of false comfort in the fact that he currently is not the leading vote getter.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I talked with Yos about the game and his read on DaSpot is solid. I still have yet to go through and thoroughly read the game, but I'm at the last set of exams before the stretch to finals. After this weekend i hope I can get back in full swing of this game.

-cayke.