Mini 1137: Long Overdue Mafia [Game Over!]

[havingfitz]

VM...I haven't hurled insults at PR, please don't say I have.

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pappums rat...I have answered your questions. Stop being a lazy waste. And if your mother knew you were acting like you have been she would probably not let you on the computer. The answers to your questions are in my posts. At the bottom of the page is a box that says "All users." Click the arrow pointing down, select havingfitz, and hit go. There you will find your answers.

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Pine...I don't like the fact that you "see the wagon on Fitz" and I am your "moderately-distant" second yet you are voting PR for all (or a subset of) the same reasons I am. And while you understand and are fine with my wagon, Cecily has passed me as your second highest suspect...is that accurate? What are your thoughts on neil?

Speaking of your reasons for voting pappums, you say "I'd be satisfied with a Fitz lynch, though I haven't put the effort into his case that I have with PR."....did you ever put a case together on me? If so...can I see it? Also...I think stating you put effort into a pappums case might be a bit of an overstatement. Aside from reading what others have said about him, what original thought/suspicion with respect to pappums have you produced?

You also say "Town are also emotional and passionate, where scum generally aren't." How does this comment correlate to pappums rude, irrational, out of line, and some might say..."emotional and passionate" behavior?

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I don't care for the way pappums has played in this game. When I thought he was telling the truth during his 'gambit' I thought he had claimed a result too soon (ie he tainted gameplay). Lesson learned...next time I will consider the possibility of a gambit being in play. Then when he admitted to deceiving and lying to town, kept his vote on VM (despite no good reason att) and his subsequent OMGUS vote on me, it only supported my opinion that he was either scum or just incompetant town. However, the possibility that he is incompetant town has me bothered. I would like him to be gone because of his bad play and the fact he is being a dick (if that's hurling an insult so be it...it's also a fact). However....if he is town...then both leading wagons are on a mislynch and there will IMO be nothing to be gained from analyzing either of our wagons. I'm all for making scum work for their mislynches so I'm going to

Unvote

pappums and put my vote somewhere I feel more confident of the result...

VOTE: Cecily

If the result is my lynch...fine, I'll be out of the way and town can assess my wagon. If if the lynch is pappums and he is scum...great! But if he is town, it will be seven players other than me who can be scrutinized. I would already be a popular candidate based on my current wagon so not being on a potential PRtown lynch would just put more scum in the spotlight. And if is isn't obvious from what I am saying above...I am saying I am town-aligned.

[Pine]

@Fitz: To clarify, my top three are PR, you, and Cecily, in that order. There's a big gap between PR and you, and a smaller one between you and Cecily. I have no idea why you think the fact that your reasons and mine for suspecting PR are similar is relevant.

With regard to having produced original evidence against PR, no one had provided any logic at all concerning how PR's gambit would work for scum. I did.

With regard to not having assembled comprehensive cases against my top scum reads (even PR,) I'll do so in the morning. Tired, not going to do that right now. I know, I've promised that for a while, I mean it this time.

With regard to Neil, he is obv. newbTown. Suggesting he is scum despite glaring, screaming town tells is among the lesser reasons I suspect you.

With regard to your classification of PR's recent antics as emotional and passionate, the Observer Effect, a conflation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, comes into play. The act of observing something changes the object being observed. By similar principles, stating 'Town does this' or 'Scum does that' makes subsequent instances of that rule in that thread less valid. Simply put, scum can and will imitate Town tells to the best of their ability. By sharing one of your Town tells, you give scum clues as to how to fool you. That doesn't render the point

completely

invalid, as it is still generally true, but I feel PR's outbursts are completely over the top and phony, either trying to play to a supposed Town tell or stymie the efforts of his detractors or both.

[tarsonisocelot]

I would normally NEVER under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE recommend a self-hammer, but nobody here seems to like you Rat. Which is funny, you seem to be living up to your display name on the forum. So I'll ask you, do us all a favor and self hammer, get out of this game please so we can move on?

If not, someone please hammer him and shut him up? I don't care if anything I'm saying here looks scummy, I'm fed up with him.

Neil is seeming less and less town to me as time goes on.

Main wagon possible results:
Rat/Fitz both scum: this has been an extremely epic instance of distancing. Very unlikely but if true kudos.
Rat/Fitz both town: playstyle/personality clash turned into mislynch. Possible.

Rat town/Fitz scum: gambit successful, shame it tore apart the town - there are definitely better ways to get the ball rolling.
I'm currently leaning away from this option, based on pretty much the whole of the last page.

Rat scum/Fitz town: rat has traded in his life to completely derail all discussion on Day 1
Possible, more probable than the reverse but only by a little,

[Pine]

Were you planning on voting, or just waffling?

[havingfitz]

@Pine...you stated in a fairly recent post that Cecily was the #1 target for D2. So why isn't she your #2 on D1? And if she is the to target for D2...are you assuming both pappum and I to be gone by D2? Or are you assuming the flip of whomever the D1 lynch is will exonerate the other?

With regard to the one contribution towards pappum that you take credit for...the logic behind why his gambit/lie could have come from scum was discussed at least once before you made your "effort."

Looking forward to your case on me. I'll wait till then to consider the "you suspect pappum for the same reasons as I do" train of thought.

And while neil is lower on my suspect list than a handful of others atm, I still find it interesting that you are willing to dismiss him for "glaring, screaming town tells" (which I read as things scum wouldn't do OR things that only or most of the time town would do) when you are not willing to do the same with pappum's lie (ie scum wouldn't do that which is why scum would do that). As for your psychology lesson...what good does it do? It's just taking up space. It appears you are just saying scum try to look like town. Well thanks for that revelaton.

What's up Bub and Jahudo?

[neil1113]

Pine, I'd rather you call me scum then NewbTown. I'm NOT new by any means to Mafia...

Also, did Tarson really just post the biggest WIFOM, Fluff post in the game? Epic. I'm not Scum because I simply am annoyed by a VI's play, as he's annoying several people and is making the game less fun. I'd rather lose as town then to suffer through someone like him and win a game that no one enjoyed. Maybe you're different? This doesn't paint me as scum though, just annoyed. It's not a tell either way. To say it is, would be to dive into WIFOM. Which is okay for you to do Tarson, since your last post was basically nothing but speculation.

[tarsonisocelot]

Pine, I'd rather you call me scum then NewbTown. I'm NOT new by any means to Mafia...

Also, did Tarson really just post the biggest WIFOM, Fluff post in the game? Epic. I'm not Scum because I simply am annoyed by a VI's play, as he's annoying several people and is making the game less fun. I'd rather lose as town then to suffer through someone like him and win a game that no one enjoyed. Maybe you're different? This doesn't paint me as scum though, just annoyed. It's not a tell either way. To say it is, would be to dive into WIFOM. Which is okay for you to do Tarson, since your last post was basically nothing but speculation.

I have a slightly unfortunate tendency to view things as probability trees, which necessarily involve speculation if you wish to add any analysis not directly numerically implied. As I am NewbTown(2 games finished elsewhere, one of which was a bastard mod and therefore non-educational), I have a less nuanced view of tells than others so there are possibly things that I miss.
In this case, the summary is that I do not think both are scum, and split the other probabilities with pappums rat being slightly more likely than havingfitz to be mafia and a smaller but not insignificant probability of then both being town. I will make a note to keep my thoughts in my head at least until I can provide a summary with them. I will vote based on the probability tree on Friday night, when I have a few hours break scheduled between pieces of coursework and it's close enough to the deadline for me to be comfortable with bringing someone to L1 or hammering.

I understand your point about the current situation being less than fun(though that's not entirely due to rat), but to suggest self hammering? It's not the only reason you seem scummy, just the most readily quotable.

[Cecily]

Well now, this post could ruin me, or you guys could read it like I'm intending for it to be read and not jump instantly to "flail flail flail". Please choose the latter.

My original reason for voting fitz is because of his emotional responses to pappums gambit. He seemed to take it as an attack on the town (which could be one way to interpret it), yet reacted much more forcefully than what everyone else expected. Up until a few posts ago, that was the scummiest behavior out of anyone in here and like I pointed out initially I like to assess people based off of how they react, not necessarily what they say. I agreed with pappums "fuck you" because the walls and baiting that fitz does are obnoxious and do seem at times to be mostly just to piss people off.

Now, pappums is the one with overly emotional responses. If I'm sticking with my original argument of voting based off of how people react, then his last post consisting of only obscene remarks definitely takes the cake. And because it will probably come up, I only defended pappums in his reasoning for the gambit. If anyone wants to call me out now for something else, please do, I may have forgotten, but defense of his actions was solely reserved for the gambit.

I repeat, I was not consistently defending him, only agreeing with his reasons for voting fitz, so no fair calling me out on that for switching my vote.

unvote
vote: pappums

And I don't have time or energy to go over other people right now so, sorry.

[Rhinox]

Votecount 1.15

andrew94 (1) - P.T. Barnum
Pine (0) -
neil1113 (0) -
P.T. Barnum (0) -
Jahudo (0) -
Bub Bidderskins (0) -
mikemike778 (0) -
Idiotking (0) -
tarsonisocelot (0) -
Voidedmafia (0) -
Cecily (1) - havingfitz
havingfitz (4) - mikemike778, pappums rat, Jahudo, Idiotking
pappums rat (5) - Voidedmafia, andrew94, neil1113, Pine, Cecily

not voting (2): Bub Bidderskins, tarsonisocelot

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1 is

Sunday, April 3 at 9:00PM EST

.

andrew94 is V/LA for a couple days.

A prod will be going out shortly for jahudo.


At this point I would like to step in and remind everyone of the Forum Rules and Guidelines. Particularly, the "General Site Guidelines" section.

You should not make any post, or start any thread, with the intention of abusing, ridiculing, insulting, offending, or upsetting any other user on this site. Within a game, criticism of another player's play is acceptable - making it personal is not

, and may result in action by the moderator of that game. Outside a game, determination of the intention of the poster will be made by mith, or someone appointed by mith.
-----
Most "swear" words are not banned. However, going out of your way to annoy or upset users who find certain words offensive falls under the previous guideline.

Things have been getting heated and I would prefer to keep a hands off approach and let you guys self moderate. This goes for everyone and is not directed at any particular person. Since I have been specifically asked to step in, this is my stance going forward: PM me if a comment offends you, and I will discuss it privately with the player who made the comment. I will remind everyone that it does not take vulgar language to attempt to insult someone and violate the site guidelines, nor is baiting a justification for making an insulting comment in return.

TBH, games don't often get out of hand and I didn't really expect it to be a problem. I'm hoping you all can find a way to turn the intensity down on your own so I don't have to resort to things like modkills, and we won't have to worry about this any longer.

[pappums rat]

@ everyone: i have asked rhinox to replace me. i cant handle this game anymore and i think it would be in everyone's best interests if i were replaced. now that im gone, please have the decency to not insult me when i cant respond.

@ my replacement: sorry for putting you in such a shitty position. hopefully you will be a little more eloquent than myself.

Searching for a replacement. Wish you the best pappums.

[mikemike778]

Yet, we firmly believe that Rat (or Fitz, depending on the wagon) are scum. Even if we have other suspicions, why would it be stupidity to push for a wagon we believe in?

If that's supposed to be directed towards me, you're missing the point. We should vote who we want to vote until we're under the pressure of a deadline (six days does not qualify) or there is a compelling reason to end the day (there isn't). If fitz or pappums is your top choice, fine, but I'm going to vote who I feel like voting, and I certainly won't let anyone tell me that scumhunting is "unhelpful" or "dumb" or cowardly.

Yep agree with PT here - still a bit of time till the deadline, you should vote for who you think is scum - another black mark to Ces in my book for looking to force PT into voting for one of Rat or Fitz. Seems very scummy in my book as things stand .. obviously less so if either flips scum at some point.

Is there ANYONE who seriously thinks PR is Town anymore?

If so, please speak up so we know to lynch you for being his scumbuddy and wrap this up on D2

.

Your gambit was the single scummiest thing in the entire thread. By a wide margin. And lying is ALWAYS scummy, it's just mitigated (at best) when actual Townies do it for legitimate reasons.

No it wasn't as discussed before, Rat has kinda gone a bit nuts - not sure what to think of him anymore but with all the stuff going on recently, why the heck are you going on about the gambit which is probably the biggest thing anyone's done to drive the game on so far regardless of alignment. Whilst we are on the subject of most scummiest things in the game .. making threats to persuade people not to give their opinion on stuff (the line in bold) is up there with anything said so far this game.

I have a slightly unfortunate tendency to view things as probability trees, which necessarily involve speculation if you wish to add any analysis not directly numerically implied. As I am NewbTown(2 games finished elsewhere, one of which was a bastard mod and therefore non-educational), I have a less nuanced view of tells than others so there are possibly things that I miss.
In this case, the summary is that I do not think both are scum, and split the other probabilities with pappums rat being slightly more likely than havingfitz to be mafia and a smaller but not insignificant probability of then both being town. I will make a note to keep my thoughts in my head at least until I can provide a summary with them. I will vote based on the probability tree on Friday night, when I have a few hours break scheduled between pieces of coursework and it's close enough to the deadline for me to be comfortable with bringing someone to L1 or hammering.

Sorry no offence intended but I've no idea what you are on about. Who do you think is scum ?

[Jahudo]

It looks like pappums expected his gambit to received better, like they have in other games I've seen recently. So his latest posts are not too surprising.

@Cecily: In your experience why do you think a forceful nature, maybe stronger language makes someone more likely to be scum? What do you think a pappums-scum is trying to achieve through this playstyle, or do you think scum are more likely to act this way and not even realize how its different than a town approach?

[Pine]

I'm worried that if we wait for a replacement on PR, they're going to use the slack we all subconsciously give to replacements to their advantage. In my mind, PR's spot is confirmed scum, and I am concerned that a replacement is just going to wriggle out of it.

Hammer, please.

[Jahudo]

I asked you some questions a while back Pine. Like how many times have you seen a gambit lie like this? How do you know this is something scum do? I guess you play on another site / irl / an alt since that account is pretty new?

[Pine]

IRL for 7 years and on another site. I see early scum gambits all the time in live play, and there exists no viable reason for Town to do it. At all. The given "starting conversation" reason is bullshit, there are infinitely better options for starting conversation than lying to Town.

From the words of Vi regarding Town gambits.

[Rhinox]

Nachomamma8 replaces pappums. Thanks and welcomes all around!

[Jahudo]

And you are focusing on this part I guess:

You should generally try to gambit only if you're going to get a superior result if you succeed (none of that mindgames-for-the-sake-of-it garbage) and the gambit has low-to-no chance of failure.

I've still seen mindgames for the sake of it from town, and the rest of the town like it. Though pappums scum with that knowledge could easily gambit too so I honestly pappums and voided were the two that we wouldn't get clear reads on from that gambit. Now if one of them is scum its a great thing to know that early, but I won't switch my vote unless its deadline time.

I will take another look at cecily in the meantime though.

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NACHOOOOOOOO!!!!

[Pine]

Oh hai, nacho. Sorry you got stuck with about-to-be-lynched scum. I'm tempted to back off just because I enjoy playing with you.

But I'd rather get down to a one scum game.

UNVOTE: pappums rat
VOTE: nachomamma8

[Cecily]

@mike, I just found it silly that PT would focus his attention on someone other than the main two suspects. It seemed like distancing, and its not only that he didn't vote for one or the other, but he pretty much seemed to ignore them all together which leads me to ask who he didn't want to get himself involved with.

@Jahudo, in my experiences on this site and especially IRL scum tend to take two approaches. They're either very forceful and abrasive, trying to be leaders, or they're trying to stay under the radar by not posting frequently, and in their posts saying not very much at all. So far, the only type that would stand out in this game is the leader type. Yes, PR's can sometimes have the same reactions when they have information that everyone else does not, but the only way to know who is who on day one, unfortunately, is through a lynch. These two characteristic scum have shown up in just about every game I've played, and so that is what I am voting off of.

And nacho, I'm sorry for the spot you've gotten yourself into in this one....

[havingfitz]

@Pine...I had a post dedicated almost entirely to you that seems to have gone unnoticed. No comment?

@All...Cecily's vote on pappum is another mark on her list of suspicions IMO. As far as I can see she has avoided any kind of push on pappum until now and overlooked his lie and rude behavior. Now that he is walking out on us, and now that it looks like a few of the people who are not voting him (PT and TO) appear to be leaning towards his [PRs] wagon...she decides to hop on.

I do not see where Cecily ever adequately responded to my suspicions towards her and she gives as her reason for voting me as my

"emotonal response to pappums' gambit."

Huh? Then you end the point with saying you were

only agreeing with his [PRs] reasons for voting"

me. WTF? Was pappums voting me for being emotional? I don't recall ever getting a good reason from pappums on his vote of me. If he wasn't voting me for being emotional, and you agree with his reasons, then why do you say you were voting me for being emotional? That doesn't make sense.

And if emotion is the only thing you are basing your votes on...are you just going to keep switching back and forth between whomever gets (in your opinion at least)...emotional? I don't actually think anyone would do that and I only point it out because that's how your post is coming across to me and it's ridiculous.

Everytime you take the time to post I like my vote on you better. Even if you do feel the need to continually apologize

[havingfitz]

And did we lose Bub?

[Rhinox]

bub has been prodded.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Sorry for getting prodded, but real life has kept me from doing a serious re-read. Working on it now.

[Cecily]

Emotional may have not been the best term... overly sensitive maybe, or jumpy could have been used in its place I suppose. I didn't push his lynch before because he didn't seem scummy. Now he seems scummy. Is that such an issue?

At this moment, in day one, what else do I have to go off of other than instinctual feelings and very thin arguments based on wording? nothing.
So why shouldn't I vote the person who now I believe is scum? This game is seriously too concerned with allies and foes and making teams when in actuality only like 2-3 people actually know any sort of thing about anyone at this point. I hate determining alliances this early on because they almost always backfire because people have differing opinions and that's just how life works. Automatically jumping on me because now I don't fit into the group in which you've placed me is stupid.

[havingfitz]

I do not see his play immediately prior to your switch to him being much different then his play for most of the day. So yes...it is an issue to me.

The only group I have placed you in is scum. I didn't 'automatically' do anything (aside from my Void vote and subsequent PR vote of course).