Metropolis: Redemption [Game Over]

[singersigner]

vote: Fate

You call this PTW?

I don't know what that means.

Also, read the scum QT. It's fun stuff. It's also pretty obvious that we had no chance this game.

[Kise]

"Maybe"

LOL

So maybe I do? Maybe I AM RIGHT about you being scum?

Lynch this fuck without a claim. I'm 100% serious.

My favorite part.

[AGar]

Reaper, only note I would make is in the future, a doc protect should override the BP vest, and one of those shots should've been negated by SG's protect, giving the vest a 66% chance with Farside.

Other than that, great game, but the town got STACKED.

[ReaperCharlie]

Reaper, only note I would make is in the future, a doc protect should override the BP vest, and one of those shots should've been negated by SG's protect, giving the vest a 66% chance with Farside.

Other than that, great game, but the town got STACKED.

True. But since nobody ever hit the vest again, it didn't really end up mattering at all.

I find it hilarious that ShadowGuru stopped the Trifecta kill three times. If there was a scummy for "Best Doctor", I'd nominate him for it. And all things considered, I should probably nominate you guys for best town performance, eh? Or do you think it was more of a conglomeration of a stacked town versus a rather newer scumteam? Eh, I don't know. But what would be really cool though would be if one of the scum decided to nominate you guys (the townies) for it. Now that'd be sportsmanship.

Anyway, I will have to read over the game again and provide my thoughts when I have time.

Sadly I don't have much, atm.

[ShadowGuru]

Reaper, only note I would make is in the future, a doc protect should override the BP vest, and one of those shots should've been negated by SG's protect, giving the vest a 66% chance with Farside.

Other than that, great game, but the town got STACKED.

Actually, town would have been fucked.

- Protect: You may choose to Protect someone each night, to attempt to save them from dying that night. You may not protect someone two nights in a row.

If two killing actions target the player you chose to Protect, both you and the player will die.

If it had happened the way you said, which I agree with (doc protection comes before the bulletproof vest, we weren't wearing the vest, he was), then we would have died and then in the endgame everyone would have said "Oh terrible setup, it was stacked against the town!" In reality, this was a VERY balanced game. There are 2 night kills for scum (SK + Maf), a godfather to fuck with the cop, a framer to fuck with the cop, and a roleblocker to screw up every PR, and the SK was unkillable at night. Both the SK and the Maf had a good chance to win this setup. Town on the other hand had a modified BP vest, a modified and limited cop/watcher, a modified and limited vig, and a doctor. Town also had a good chance to win this setup.

Truly, it was just dumb luck. Maf got unlucky with the kills, their roleblocker got lynched D1, and the SK played poorly and got himself lynched.

@Mod: I don't believe our account EVER got a PM telling us that we had a BP vest. Also, the Vig PM says he only has 2 shots, yet he used 3 in the game and said in the game that you PM'd him a correction with 3, which was it?

ALSO, I just realized, our PM said:

You may not protect someone two nights in a row.

Yet we protected Espeonage both N2 and N3 (saving him from kills both nights). Was this a mistake?

Anyway, I thought this was a GREAT game. The setup was very balanced, the flavor was amazing, the players were relatively active (except Gold). I think the random role distribution is what killed it for antitown in this game and GREAT PR's .

OH! Furcolow and I had quite the argument at night in our QT (some in PM's, but I tried to post all the PM's in the QT in case you guys wanted to read it in the aftergame)! So I'll post the QT here (if we ever do hydra again, we'll make a new QT): http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/ZYinJHHvAywH

Enjoy it! I know I did haha! Furc was overall a great hydra partner and I'm glad I had him. Stayed active while I was V/LA and offered valid points. Thank you to the mod as well for doing such a great job!

CMAR

[AGar]

Reaper, only note I would make is in the future, a doc protect should override the BP vest, and one of those shots should've been negated by SG's protect, giving the vest a 66% chance with Farside.

Other than that, great game, but the town got STACKED.

True. But since nobody ever hit the vest again, it didn't really end up mattering at all.

I find it hilarious that ShadowGuru stopped the Trifecta kill three times. If there was a scummy for "Best Doctor", I'd nominate him for it. And all things considered, I should probably nominate you guys for best town performance, eh? Or do you think it was more of a conglomeration of a stacked town versus a rather newer scumteam? Eh, I don't know. But what would be really cool though would be if one of the scum decided to nominate you guys (the townies) for it. Now that'd be sportsmanship.

Anyway, I will have to read over the game again and provide my thoughts when I have time.

Sadly I don't have much, atm.

TBH we didn't play phenomenally or anything, at least in my opinion. Espe had a clutch vigging N1, but me soaking up both kills was more luck than anything thanks to R.org giving me the vest. Cooldog's slip was retardedly obvious, Espe vigged the two most obvious targets, giving us the SK and then we had PoE to run the tables with by the end of the game. We played well, but not Scummy-well in my opinion.

(I disagree with the doc dying if both teams target his protectee, ftr)

[ReaperCharlie]

Well the question is... would you guys want to play the exact same setup again? Because this is already the second time I have run it... I could definitely run it a third time.

This time I would not invite my friend Gold... sadly, he is one of my best online friends and I had to beg him to play... but he didn't really make it worth it.

I think with a few more high-caliber players and a little more talent on the scum team that we could have an awesome 'third' playthrough of this, with a few tweaks.

Up to you guys.

(Honestly, I never got to see how the balance for this game worked out, as the first game was abandoned due to lack of interest on the other site in mafia at all. Which is actually why I moved here. So in reality this is the 'first' complete playthrough, and anything else we did would be considered Metropolis: Redemption 2).

[Espeonage]

Yeah, we weren't amazing. We just got lucky.

P Edit: I'd play it again.

[singersigner]

Like I said in the QT, a lot of things were screwed by random.org alone. CooLDoG comes into the QT and immediately says, "sorry guys, I'm gunna suck at this."

...

AWESOME.

Preview Edit: quadz and I would play it again when we have more time. The reason the game sucked so badly for us was bad luck all around, not so much set-up. We're also not used to playing as a hydra yet, and we'd like to give it another go as we've better developed our combined play-styles.

[ReaperCharlie]

@Mod: I don't believe our account EVER got a PM telling us that we had a BP vest. Also, the Vig PM says he only has 2 shots, yet he used 3 in the game and said in the game that you PM'd him a correction with 3, which was it?

Yeah... that was an oversight on my part, not specifically informing you that you got the vest. Days and nights were going so fast by that time though that I was a little lax in my rigid standards of making sure eeeevvveeeerrryyyything got taken care of. Sorry, my fault.

Also, the vig PM being different from the wiki was a mistake on my part as well. I had tuned it differently so that the vig would only have 2 shots, but had forgotten to change it on the wiki. Instead of admit mid-game that it was an official mod-error (i.e. directly confirming Esp as the vig), I just PM'd him and let him say it in thread if he wished... more WIFOM for everyone that way. But the fact that there were basically no counter-claims possible in this setup (and obviously no fake-claims were given) kind of narrowed that down anyway. Sooo that was another mistake on my part.

Also, another role that I think I'd change if I ran this again would be farside's role. I think that's pretty strong. 2x Cop and 2x Watcher if I remember correctly. I think I should have made it instead: 3 of one or the other, but no more than 2 of either. Meaning it could possibly 2x Cop+1x Watcher, or 2x Watcher+1x Cop. I did want them to be able to have both abilities, and I wanted them to be able to choose, and be able to WIFOM scum what they'd do and who they'd do it to, in case they were outed (just like farside did ) but I don't want that role to be able to last quite as long as it did in this game. I want them to run out of usefulness eventually, y'know?

And as for the BP vest, I think I'd change it around so that its distribution every night would be random, instead of directly player-directed (or at least semi-random... though I can't really figure out how to do this without having the player pick multiple choices and me random.org-ing between those two or three... which sounds like a lot of work. Maybe a better way would be to just have the current wearer be able to "Veto" two people, who can then NOT get the vest the following night... but it'll still be randomly given to one of the X players still left alive. I think I like that better). Either way, having it entirely player-directed is too broken in favor of the town, because unless the mafia wastes X number of shots on it, the town can quickly guarantee a win by playing follow-the-cop/doc but with BOTH of them having immunity at some points. That's too strong imo, and is one of the reasons town won so convincingly. Because they had a stone front that the mafia couldn't crack. And that's never good.

Another issue in this setup is mass-claim. What do you guys think would alleviate that problem? i.e. What's to stop all the town PRs from outing themselves ASAP and creating that brick wall like they did this game? I think full (or at least semi-, like the paragraph above explains) randomization of the BP vest would go a long way towards that. But I'd like to hear other ideas.

[ReaperCharlie]

There were a lot of things I wasn't happy about this game, especially the fact that the game was broken as soon as we lost our roleblocker. It wasn't for lack of trying to fix that mistake, though. We were just wrong every night until last night. That didn't help either, lol.

How do you think this could be fixed in the future?

Or do you believe it was specifically broken because people could pass the BP vest to all the PRs and then just protect the others? Meaning you'd have a 1/3 shot of actually killing one of them. Because fully randomizing (or semi-randomizing, as is mentioned in my longer post above) the BP vest would go a long way to alleviating this problem.

But I'm interested to know other ways you think I could fix it.

[ReaperCharlie]

I also want to note that this game needed ZERO replacements. That is a first for one of my games. Usually I need at least one or two.

Maybe that's due to the short length of it, or due to the easy reading because people didn't post so much.. but still, it is what it is!

[CryMeARiver]

And as for the BP vest, I think I'd change it around so that its distribution every night would be random, instead of directly player-directed (or at least semi-random... though I can't really figure out how to do this without having the player pick multiple choices and me random.org-ing between those two or three... which sounds like a lot of work. Maybe a better way would be to just have the current wearer be able to "Veto" two people, who can then NOT get the vest the following night... but it'll still be randomly given to one of the X players still left alive. I think I like that better). Either way, having it entirely player-directed is too broken in favor of the town, because unless the mafia wastes X number of shots on it, the town can quickly guarantee a win by playing follow-the-cop/doc but with BOTH of them having immunity at some points. That's too strong imo, and is one of the reasons town won so convincingly. Because they had a stone front that the mafia couldn't crack. And that's never good.

As far as this goes, I like the veto idea. Also, maybe if the roleblocker blocks the player with the vest that night, the vest disappears altogether for the night and gets randomized the next night.

Another issue in this setup is mass-claim. What do you guys think would alleviate that problem? i.e. What's to stop all the town PRs from outing themselves ASAP and creating that brick wall like they did this game? I think full (or at least semi-, like the paragraph above explains) randomization of the BP vest would go a long way towards that. But I'd like to hear other ideas.

Make it into a closed setup. Also, let the BP vest N1 be randomized among ALL players to take away the town having a clear. Mafia can get it, PR's can get it, and townies can get it. Make it random.

Also, the vig PM being different from the wiki was a mistake on my part as well. I had tuned it differently so that the vig would only have 2 shots, but had forgotten to change it on the wiki. Instead of admit mid-game that it was an official mod-error (i.e. directly confirming Esp as the vig), I just PM'd him and let him say it in thread if he wished... more WIFOM for everyone that way. But the fact that there were basically no counter-claims possible in this setup (and obviously no fake-claims were given) kind of narrowed that down anyway. Sooo that was another mistake on my part.

...But he had 3 shots

Also, another role that I think I'd change if I ran this again would be farside's role. I think that's pretty strong. 2x Cop and 2x Watcher if I remember correctly. I think I should have made it instead: 3 of one or the other, but no more than 2 of either. Meaning it could possibly 2x Cop+1x Watcher, or 2x Watcher+1x Cop. I did want them to be able to have both abilities, and I wanted them to be able to choose, and be able to WIFOM scum what they'd do and who they'd do it to, in case they were outed (just like farside did ) but I don't want that role to be able to last quite as long as it did in this game. I want them to run out of usefulness eventually, y'know?

ALSO, THIS:

ALSO, I just realized, our PM said:

You may not protect someone two nights in a row.

Yet we protected Espeonage both N2 and N3 (saving him from kills both nights). Was this a mistake?

Absolutely, 4 is too many for a mini theme. Make it into 3 and make the character into a JoaT with a cop, a track, and a watch

[CryMeARiver]

IGNORE THE ABOVE!

And as for the BP vest, I think I'd change it around so that its distribution every night would be random, instead of directly player-directed (or at least semi-random... though I can't really figure out how to do this without having the player pick multiple choices and me random.org-ing between those two or three... which sounds like a lot of work. Maybe a better way would be to just have the current wearer be able to "Veto" two people, who can then NOT get the vest the following night... but it'll still be randomly given to one of the X players still left alive. I think I like that better). Either way, having it entirely player-directed is too broken in favor of the town, because unless the mafia wastes X number of shots on it, the town can quickly guarantee a win by playing follow-the-cop/doc but with BOTH of them having immunity at some points. That's too strong imo, and is one of the reasons town won so convincingly. Because they had a stone front that the mafia couldn't crack. And that's never good.

As far as this goes, I like the veto idea. Also, maybe if the roleblocker blocks the player with the vest that night, the vest disappears altogether for the night and gets randomized the next night.

Another issue in this setup is mass-claim. What do you guys think would alleviate that problem? i.e. What's to stop all the town PRs from outing themselves ASAP and creating that brick wall like they did this game? I think full (or at least semi-, like the paragraph above explains) randomization of the BP vest would go a long way towards that. But I'd like to hear other ideas.

Make it into a closed setup. Also, let the BP vest N1 be randomized among ALL players to take away the town having a clear. Mafia can get it, PR's can get it, and townies can get it. Make it random.

Also, the vig PM being different from the wiki was a mistake on my part as well. I had tuned it differently so that the vig would only have 2 shots, but had forgotten to change it on the wiki. Instead of admit mid-game that it was an official mod-error (i.e. directly confirming Esp as the vig), I just PM'd him and let him say it in thread if he wished... more WIFOM for everyone that way. But the fact that there were basically no counter-claims possible in this setup (and obviously no fake-claims were given) kind of narrowed that down anyway. Sooo that was another mistake on my part.

...But he had 3 shots

Also, another role that I think I'd change if I ran this again would be farside's role. I think that's pretty strong. 2x Cop and 2x Watcher if I remember correctly. I think I should have made it instead: 3 of one or the other, but no more than 2 of either. Meaning it could possibly 2x Cop+1x Watcher, or 2x Watcher+1x Cop. I did want them to be able to have both abilities, and I wanted them to be able to choose, and be able to WIFOM scum what they'd do and who they'd do it to, in case they were outed (just like farside did ) but I don't want that role to be able to last quite as long as it did in this game. I want them to run out of usefulness eventually, y'know?

Absolutely, 4 is too many for a mini theme. Make it into 3 and make the character into a JoaT with a cop, a track, and a watch


ALSO, THIS:

ALSO, I just realized, our PM said:

You may not protect someone two nights in a row.

Yet we protected Espeonage both N2 and N3 (saving him from kills both nights). Was this a mistake?

[ReaperCharlie]

Sh*t. Augh. Yes, that was also a mistake. Overall, I'm not very happy with my modding performance; I could have done much better.

I did too much tweaking of the setup in the final days and was not able to keep up with all of it myself. I apologize.

[singersigner]

Also, the vig PM being different from the wiki was a mistake on my part as well. I had tuned it differently so that the vig would only have 2 shots, but had forgotten to change it on the wiki. Instead of admit mid-game that it was an official mod-error (i.e. directly confirming Esp as the vig), I just PM'd him and let him say it in thread if he wished... more WIFOM for everyone that way. But the fact that there were basically no counter-claims possible in this setup (and obviously no fake-claims were given) kind of narrowed that down anyway. Sooo that was another mistake on my part.

This...because it was a semi-open set-up, you could've easily let that be one of the changed mechanics. The mechanics in the role PMs shouldn't have changed, especially if it was your original intent to let happen. Three town night kills was pretty powerful in a set-up that was broken as soon as the roleblocker died.

As far as tweaks that could be made...randomizing the vest would work. After a mass claim, it's easy to say "let's pass the vest in between the doc and the watcher and ensure an ultimate town win."

I think the PR v scum roles were fairly balanced, but the mechanics of the game is what caused it to get really swingy (that and random.org--I'll go to my grave saying that's what fucked us, lol).

[Espeonage]

You could do some sort of randomization like in the newbie games. For example get a couple of balanced setups using the roles and then pick one randomly. This means that you can't be sure that an no CC power claim is town.

[ReaperCharlie]

I think the PR v scum roles were fairly balanced, but the mechanics of the game is what caused it to get really swingy (that and random.org--I'll go to my grave saying that's what fucked us, lol).

Well, in a way you are correct. If random.org had targeted anyone BUT AGar, then both AGar AND ShadowGuru would have died (in addition to malthusis, whom Espeonage vigged). As a result of having no doc, then the other PRs would have been significantly less forthcoming with their roles, which would have significantly decreased any kind of town cohesion. And even if everything else would have played out exactly the same, you'd still never have gotten blocked by ShadowGuru's protection, which would have increased your chances greatly.

So you are absolutely correct that the game would have been MUCH different, had the vest gone to someone else on Night 1.

I keep beating myself up for this, thinking it was unbalanced, but then I remember that it was just swingy due to a number of factors, and I don't feel so bad any more. I mean, I still feel bad that you guys got raped so thoroughly, but... well, there wasn't really much I could do about that.

[farside22]

Ahhhhh I liked the cop/watcher role. There is nothing wrong with town using WIFOM on the mafia, as the mafia does it to the town all the time.
Also I like CMAR's point about the BP that should be random to everyone as to not to confirm a player. Having a confirmed player day 2 is way powerful.
I liked the balance over all. I think the scum got unlucky with who was scum and had their been a bit better player in there it may have been a different game.
The only thing I would change is the BP vest.
I could not play now if you were to rerun it today, but in the future if you decide to redo the game with very little modifications I would be up for it.

[nopointinactingup]

Yup. Swingy but balanced. It'd be better if the 1st person who receive BPV isn't necesserily confirmed town.

Also, <3

Sad that NoPoint is always naturally scummy.

[ReaperCharlie]

Yeah that's another thing I'd change. The BP vest could go to scum too. Having it confirm town was MEH.

If it hit the Evil Angel do you guys think it should re-randomize, or that it should just be gone for the night?

Also, a random bulletproof vest going all over the place magically doesn't fit flavor too well...

Maybe I'll make it a bulletproof vest RENTAL place, or something. lol and then everyone gets one-shot rental.

That way, 13 people could be bulletproof on Night 1, and 0 for the rest of the game (except the EA, obv)

[Xalxe]

Bulletproof Vest Idea

Make one role something like the Arms Dealer or Tailor or something, idk, pick a better name. This player gets the Vest D1 and has to pass it before D1 ends. Every night, they choose who it gets passed to (ie steal it from AGar at the start of D2, give it to Xalxe by the end of D2). If they get lynched, vest dies.

[ReaperCharlie]

Wait... so for instance the Armorer, which is what I'd probably call him, has one night of immunity, and then controls who has it from thereafter? That'd still mean a town role would exclusively control the bulletproof ability though. Even though he'd take the vest with him when he died, that seems a little too strong. Town could still set up the Doctor/Cop/BP blockade that they did in this game.

[Xalxe]

No, he doesn't have immunity at all, ever. But other than that...yeah, I can't come up with--no, wait, what if he's roleblockable?

[ReaperCharlie]

Nah. Still too much of a likelihood that he'll be able to run the town the same way it was run this game.

Also, what's the point of having a roleblockable BP-giver-outer? It'd just tie up the RB for the duration of the game.

You can't block/kill all the PRs when there are so many town-controlled mitigating factors. Meh, idk.