The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Not just that they'd listed it as a secondary suspect; they'd actually specifically said in their previous post that they'd be willing to compromise on a DaSpot lynch, while not willing to compromise on several other possible lynches. And, in fact, their previous behavior had strongly demonstrated that they were not opportunistic at all; the opposite, in fact, they were unwilling to support the beaver wagon even when it seemed likely to cost them their lives. (I suppose this doesn't apply if you think Froggy is scum with SVT; but if that's the only way Froggy can be scum, then it doesn't make sense to lynch Froggy before ST).

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

since you're trying to discredit SVT now because he voted you, even though your last several posts have been defending him.

Okay, first of all, this sentence is a mess. If you're saying what I think you're saying, then:
What is the contradiction between those two actions of ours? Do we think SVT is scum? NO. Do we think SVT has BS reasons for voting us? YES.

As for the rest, YFC, I'm not sure. That should be covered by the other head.

I know of VERY few roles for which not claiming at L-1 with the pressure still on like this would be actually pro-town. Spit it out, man. A claim is THE ONLY WAY (barring investigations by other players) I will ever believe FES is town.

[TheButtonmen]

The "Afternoon Fades Into Evening" Vote Count:

FrogErgoSum (4): Final Destination, DaSpot, Copper, Balam,
DaSpot (3): YosFlavouredCayke, SuperVanillaTownie, FrogErgoSum
SuperVanillaTownie (1): Gummybear
Gummybear (1): LordFonzi
Copper (1): Unicorn

Not Voting: Greymarble
With eleven alive it's six to lynch.

Unvote

,

Vote

You forgot to tell me who you're voting for...

DEADLINE: Day Two ends Saturday April 9th at 19:00 EST.

[Lord Fonzi]

And a return from the dormant head.

I still fail to understand the FES wagon. It's clear as day to me that the hydra is being run as a CES-dominant duo. The new posts from Shanba have more content because they're on the chopping block. With the fire under Shanba he's finally making his own posts without being overruled. In case you weren't aware, CES is a much more opinionated person than Shanba, until you get Shanba in a corner. CES is what I think of as a survivor of the old school of players that had very little problem with spreading their votes around and pushing for lynches a lot of the time. That doesn't really jazz with today's play. I find the fact that you read his scum play, see vote hopping, and thus decide that I am not only wrong about my meta, but that in fact, the opposite is true. Ultimately CES will vote hop all day long, whatever his alignment, in every game. Shanba will never dominate a hydra unless there are mitigating circumstances. This is all to be expected, not something to be shocked by.

What really concerns me is the number of players that have publicly stated that they will seek no lynch today other than FES's lynch. That is just stupid, aside from being anti-town. Really though, the sheer confidence you all are applying to a wagon based on nothing that has all the quality of a newbie game day one wagon is astounding. Enough to bring GreyMarble to start with the underhanded attacks against us for calling for a claim at L-1. How the hell do you play, just lynch them without claim? You're worse than CES. It's like the players that constitute the FES wagon cannot even comprehend people that play differently than them. Fonz is a logical guy, so he will show logically why FES should claim, because that's what he finds convincing. You may be the sort that assumes that people will claim or die at L-1, and that's all that needs to be said. But I am getting off point. I fail to see what commends the FES wagon over the Gummybear wagon. Most of the reluctance from others with regards to the Gummybear wagon I have seen is just lurker-appeasement. My God, they live in the same goddamned house, they can manage more substantial posts more often than they are. To be honest, I'm surprised they haven't dialed in the hammer already. They have every reason to, since apparently the town wouldn't hold them to posting content. The whole anger-at-insult thing is disingenuous. If I am meant to believe that you would not lurk on principle, then I ought to believe that your principles would obligate you to get your shit together given how easy it would be for you to do so. At least FES mounts a defense to accusations, rather than lying like a limp fish.

Specific issues:

GreyMarble: Aggrandising CES and Shanba's metas to unreadability is pathetically poor play. I am telling you what is and what is not a tell from a CES-Shanba hydra based on what I know about them. Just because it makes your argument seem like it has no basis with that information introduced does not mean I am wrong. It means you are.

Balam: I find it ironic that you are on FES for lack of vote hopping when the other members of your fine wagon have cited his vote hopping. Can you explain your reasoning for going after FES rather than Gummybear, because I can't see any. You do have that right? I mean you accuse FES of never moving their vote not three posts down from Gummybear refusing to move their vote in their first post in a while. What the hell?

Final Destination: I don't even know where to start with you. Your posts are disjointed, and you apparently don't even have the intention of considering meta or any evidence that disagrees with you. In fact you've now said that you aren't even getting anything out of FES's posts anymore. Where are you getting information?

DaSpot: Have you even articulated an opinion about FES? Why on God's green earth are you on the wagon anyway?

Copper: Your vote seems to be to pressure a change in vote. This happened. What now? Plan to have a real opinion on the near lynch you are participating in? Also regarding the ultimatum, I could have sworn you made a post to the effect that FD needed to start being coherent or you would treat it as a scumtell. I can't find that in the ISO, so I guess I was wrong. I was going to be all snarky.

Yeah. I was think-singing Beat It while I typed this.

[GummyBear]

Past couple of pages:
Re: Copper question about UB's points we agree with...will go back and check in a few hours.

Oh look Lord's talking about animosity between heads...gofuckingfigure he'd allow that to waffle over his reads.

We never stated that FES was an unacceptable lynch,we just decided that BW->SVT was a better focus

Lord Fonzi also says that it's suspicious that we don't vote for FES even though he's a scumread of ours and is a much more viable lynch, and yet you're voting for us after publicly stating that you're suspicious of FES as well-compromise my ass.

Yos's 615 is ridiculously WIFOM-y.

Lord Fonzi, we'll be apologizing to you in the aftermath, no doubt. But if you want to point out where we use ridiculous amounts of AtE, that'd be cool (other than quadz's frustration over you seemingly making lurking your case *acknowledging that lurking is no longer the only part of your case against us*).

We also don't know why Lord Fonzi keeps talking in circles about "what it will mean/look like if they do/don't hammer FES"...he's not at L-1, and last we checked, no one asked him to claim. For being one of our town reads, you certainly seem to be caring about the oddest of things...

We have more to say later when it's not 4am, as always. Especially looking at daspot's case since lately that seems to be a big deal or something.
This game sucks just fyi. That we can agree on SVT with. The cases are horrible, the reads are horrible, etc. Just our opinion.

[Lord Fonzi]

Past couple of pages:
Re: Copper question about UB's points we agree with...will go back and check in a few hours.

Oh look Lord's talking about animosity between heads...gofuckingfigure he'd allow that to waffle over his reads.

How are we waffling over our reads, exactly? We're voting you, and stating that you are very scummy. We have expressed a strong town read on UB. Since we're different people, it's obvious that there are going to be some issues we're not in unison over. The two reads to whom that really applies are FD and FES.

We never stated that FES was an unacceptable lynch,we just decided that BW->SVT was a better focus

We never said you did, in fact we said the opposite, but do you know how often scum distance their partners by putting them in a 'top suspects' list but saying that someone else is more of a priority?

Lord Fonzi also says that it's suspicious that we don't vote for FES even though he's a scumread of ours and is a much more viable lynch, and yet you're voting for us after publicly stating that you're suspicious of FES as well-compromise my ass.

And the other head has publicly stated that he feels the FES wagon is terrible. We both find you scummy. What's your point? Do you think it's wrong or scummy play, when a hydra is totally divided over a specific player, to vote someone else they do agree on? Also, in case you hadn't noticed, a) I did vote FES earlier today, before my partner came in and expressed his enormous reservations about such a course of action and b)

right now FES is at L-1 and unclaimed.

Removed, this is apparently untrue per the votecount above.

Lord Fonzi, we'll be apologizing to you in the aftermath, no doubt. But if you want to point out where we use ridiculous amounts of AtE, that'd be cool (other than quadz's frustration over you seemingly making lurking your case *acknowledging that lurking is no longer the only part of your case against us*).

"Can you please point out where we used AtE, excluding the time we used AtE?" Seriously? "How dare you accuse ME of tactical lurking, I would NEVER do such a thing and am OFFENDED, OFFENDED I TELL YOU that it is suggested" is really, really massive AtE. Hence 'A ridiculous amount.'

We also don't know why Lord Fonzi keeps talking in circles about "what it will mean/look like if they do/don't hammer FES"...he's not at L-1, and last we checked, no one asked him to claim.

I was under the impression that he was. Given how hard GreyMarble has been going for FES, I somehow assumed he was both voting and locked onto him... missed the unvote. Regardless, GM has made it 100% clear they will support FES over the only other viable wagon, so I don't really know what they're playing at there. And, of course, I asked him to claim.

[Super Vanilla Townie]

Good news and bad news.

The bad news is, I got this PM from Parama:

I haven't even worked on rereading in a week, and the game doesn't look to be getting any better.
Add that I now have two modding commitments and that a game I entered long before Hydra just started... you're going to need to find someone else to hydra with, or just replace out altogether.

The good news is, I won't be dragging down a town slot any further.

@Mod: We're gonna have to request replacement. Sorry. :(

Noted.

Bye guys, it was fun while it lasted.

~Pie

[Super Vanilla Townie]

Parama-clarification:
This may just be the most boring game I've ever played in. I will NEVER catch up regardless of how much I want to, and I'll just ruin a slot if I continue to play. Note that this is the second game I've replaced out of during my entire mafia career... it's just that bad. No offense to the mod, all offense directed at the players who made this a boring game.

[Copper]

The one thing I've learnt from this game is that CES and I have massively different playstyles. Personally, I think we should have been pushing FD harder earlier, and he thinks we should have jumped off the FD wagon earlier, and between us we ended up doing neither and parking our vote there for no real reason.

Frankly I think Copper's jump on our wagon is scummy. He skirts around it for ages, then invents a little game that allows him to jump on board. I don't like people telling me not to vote someone. I'm pretty certain that we could still get FD lynched if we tried - but well, I guess we haven't really been making things happen this game. It's hard when everyone thinks you're scum and no one will listen to what you say except to invent scumtells in it (/bitter).

These two paragraphs don't make sense together. You were worthlessly parking your vote on FinalDestination. You know it. You admit it.

Our 'skirting around' was because vote parking is an offense that gets worse over time. There is always the chance a townie is simply failing to be dynamic with their vote. So we simply reminded you that your vote was currently worthless to see what you did with the information. This isn't 'skirting around the wagon', it's scumhunting.

There were two correct answers to our "game". You could either start putting your vote in play, accepting that FinalDestination will not be lynched today, or you could start a giant, renewed push if you had strong evidence and you truly believed we were all wrong. You chose neither. You admit that you chose neither. This is why we're voting you. You're shrugging your shoulders and saying, "We have two different ideas for how to play the game so we've decided not to play it at all. Also, you're scum for voting us."

---

I know of VERY few roles for which not claiming at L-1 with the pressure still on like this would be actually pro-town. Spit it out, man. A claim is THE ONLY WAY (barring investigations by other players) I will ever believe FES is town.

Why such certainty?

---

Copper: Your vote seems to be to pressure a change in vote. This happened. What now? Plan to have a real opinion on the near lynch you are participating in?

I imagine our perspective is more clear with the above section we've just wrote.

Also regarding the ultimatum, I could have sworn you made a post to the effect that FD needed to start being coherent or you would treat it as a scumtell. I can't find that in the ISO, so I guess I was wrong. I was going to be all snarky.

You are remember something we wrote; merely targeting it wrong. We had commented that SuperVanillaTownie (a potential ten-headed hydra) would not receive a townread for Unicorn-level incoherence. We have not found FinalDestination's posts to be particularly incoherent. For some reason, many people equate rhetoric with incoherence, but we don't find it an obstacle to readability.

---

We have more to say later when it's not 4am, as always. Especially looking at daspot's case since lately that seems to be a big deal or something.
This game sucks just fyi. That we can agree on SVT with. The cases are horrible, the reads are horrible, etc. Just our opinion.

Now this is an odd post. So, you'll have more to say later about the leading wagons of the day...but you know enough to say that the "cases" and "reads" are horrible? What do you mean by this? Do you think the two leading wagons are both on town, and scum-driven?

---

Apparently Pie doesn't feel comfortable carrying the hydra alone? That's unfortunate. There have been multiple times when a single head of Copper has been forced to speak for the whole for a long period of time, and we can attest it certainly is possible.

Still, it's hard for me to muster too much righteous fury against the SVT slot when both of today's wagons are on good targets. I think the best course is simply to grin and bear it, and hope the third time is the charm for that slot to actually produce some content.

Though I have to note that the accusation that it is our fault for not being exciting enough is offensive, particularity with a thread that is below thirty pages. Sometimes players get swamped and have to replace out. Blaming the game for you replacing out of it is exceptionally poor taste.

[Greymarble]

This head has been soloing GreyMarble with limited input from the other, for instance :p

BTW, Copper... hitogoroshi? Mina? I know you, I've played with you before, but only maybe once or twice. :p Eventually this will come to me.

Anyway, I'm declaring this a null tell, because this is exactly the sort of slow plodding analytical game that Parama hates. Would welcome and love the appearance of THB or another Pie hydra, but I'm not going to insist Pie carry on solo in a hydra game.

P.S. I actually *shudder* agree with GummyBear. I get the distinct impression right now that both wagons are town, which is leading me to want to kick the wheels off this and see where it goes. That being said, I have a fair feeling Fate would hunt me down and strangle me if I was wrong, so I'm not going to without a perfect convinction I'm wrong about Fate.

And frankly, having played more with CES, I dun like his response to my case retraction on day 1. That was a tossed together case that was very similar to what I use to pin lynches on townies when I'm scum, me retracting it that way would be something I'd think would make town-CES likely to slam his vote into ME. Not glue it to a player for reasons that are terrible, were terrible, and will always be terrible.

I said I wouldn't vote without Marble here, and I won't. I'm trying my best to play this as a hydra. But towniness of posts aside, day 1 was a terrible thing, and day 2 has been more of the same.

[Greymarble]

Bah, now I'm waffling. I hate that Copper's comment is that both wagons are on good targets.

This head does not hold that kcdaspot is scum because he 'acts scummy.' That's a good reason for day 1, but I need motivation. I see a ton more scum motivation in someone like Balam than I do in spot. I don't see a scum motivation in pushing UB when the rest of us think they're pyscho town (especially when they're likely to pull stunts like epic hammer). kcda's reason for voting YFC was damn straight on and solid reasoning, his reasons for voting FES have been explained and are reasoning.

Copper, explain both wagons being good.

[Copper]

Given that I have just expanded on my FES read, I assume you're actually asking, "What do you find scummy about daSpot?"

Our ISO's 14 and 15 contain most of our suspicion. His insistence that BeaverWeasel wasn't lurking seems to be an attempt to gain an ally by defending the undefendable. The constant bickering and infighting has let him avoid being pinned down to a set of views, and his attempt to discredit the voters on his wagon rather than addressing them directly is suspect. There's also another point in the air we'll come back to soon.

[Greymarble]

Really? That's scummy? 'Cause that reads like town in a tunnel trying to derail the wagons that aren't theirs to me.

And I don't particularly feel like 'interesting information' right now. Normally I'm game, but FES is at L-1, and there's roving unicorns in the thread, I suggest you spit it out sooner rather than later.

[Greymarble]

Oh and I'd just like to respond to Fonzi: YES. I'll lynch without a claim. If I truly believe someone is scum, I'll happily drop the hammer. Did it yesterday in point of fact.

Except for Mason, claims have very little influence on my vote overall. Especially past day 1.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

@Copper, Shanba really only describes part of why our vote got parked on FD. The main reason, as far as I'm concerned, was lack of a proper alternative. It's hard to convince Shanba to vote for someone else when you yourself are barely convinced that this vote switch will do any good.

And frankly, having played more with CES, I dun like his response to my case retraction on day 1. That was a tossed together case that was very similar to what I use to pin lynches on townies when I'm scum, me retracting it that way would be something I'd think would make town-CES likely to slam his vote into ME. Not glue it to a player for reasons that are terrible, were terrible, and will always be terrible.

You haven't played with me nearly enough to make that kind of call and I don't know why you think you do. A completely unforced retraction of a case isn't a priori scummy. As far as I can tell, you made a case based on the observation that Fate wasn't aggressive which you didn't actually agree with as a result of a general stance on meta. I, on the other hand, think meta arguments are wholly valid and your "retraction" meant nothing to me. It's not the strongest of arguments (certainly not enough for my vote to be glued to FD without additional evidence as was foremostly provided by AGM's over-the-top "rebuttal" and his later behaviour)

[Greymarble]

So basically this is the result of really, really bad internal communication issues?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos's 615 is ridiculously WIFOM-y.

What the hell is WIFOM-y about it?

I thought Ether was clearly town on day 1, and I didn't understand then why anyone would suspect her. I would like the people that came to the incorrect conclusion that she was scum on day 1 to explain how they did that, because it baffles me.

What's even more baffling is your continued attacks on me for correctly reading Ether as town on day 1.

-Yos

[Copper]

Really? That's scummy? 'Cause that reads like town in a tunnel trying to derail the wagons that aren't theirs to me.

What you're saying here is that townies will lie about how townie someone else is just to get their favorite lynch through. That's a surprising claim, and one I don't believe. What makes you feel this way?

And I don't particularly feel like 'interesting information' right now. Normally I'm game, but FES is at L-1, and there's roving unicorns in the thread, I suggest you spit it out sooner rather than later.

You misunderstand. "In the air" means that it is dependent on the answer to a question we have asked that has not been answered yet.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Btw: reason # 174 why we need to lynch DaSpot today:

quote="DaSpotthatkillsu"]
I know of VERY few roles for which not claiming at L-1 with the pressure still on like this would be actually pro-town. Spit it out, man. A claim is THE ONLY WAY (barring investigations by other players) I will ever believe FES is town.[/quote]

Can we please just kill this scum?

[Balam]

(AGar)

Balam: I find it ironic that you are on FES for lack of vote hopping when the other members of your fine wagon have cited his vote hopping. Can you explain your reasoning for going after FES rather than Gummybear, because I can't see any. You do have that right? I mean you accuse FES of never moving their vote not three posts down from Gummybear refusing to move their vote in their first post in a while. What the hell?

Our accusations of FES aren't that he's

lacking

in votehopping. Are you illiterate? Do you not speak English? Or just stupid? Seriously. FES said "We want to lynch FD." The rest of the game pretty much said "No, not happening." FES then proceeded to sit there saying "Ok. But we're not going to move our vote, except to maybe DaSpot. But we'll see," and did

absolutely nothing else whatsoever

to make the wagon on FD viable, present another viable target or get momentum behind the DaSpot wagon. A town player's vote is their

strongest

tool and they pretty much stuck it away in a corner where it knowingly wouldn't be used at all.

[GummyBear]

We never said you did, in fact we said the opposite, but do you know how often scum distance their partners by putting them in a 'top suspects' list but saying that someone else is more of a priority?

Except you've essentially done the same thing now with

you

thinking FES is scummy enough to vote and your other head just so happens to not allow you to continue to vote for them. "It's scummy when they do it but not when we do it, waaah." Please.

Regardless of both of you thinking that we're scummy. Your entire case on us was lurking up until you decided that catching up in a game and agreeing/disagreeing with people's reads was sheeping. At this point one of the top two wagons SHOULD be lynched today, and you're effectively preventing that from happening by focusing on a null tell.

But now that SVT is requesting replacement...that slot has coasted for the past two game days through "catching up" but not actually catching up and eventually requesting replacement.

@Yos...we're not "continually attacking you for your Ether-town read." We mentioned it and clarified it a couple times. You say that in response to you 615 but this is at least the second time now that you've used words like "continually" or "persistently" to make it seem like us delving into answers we're not satisfied with is scummy. The WIFOM part comes with saying that you think "everyone should've known Ether was town" and yet they clearly didn't (which we've said before so that's enough of that), and then you bringing up that she had three people on her wagon at one point so you saying she was obv town wouldn't make a difference about the NK if other people didn't think she was town because she would still be scummy in their eyes and therefore NOT be the target for the NK...WIFOM.

quadz and I are ISO-ing people when we get home.

Preview Edit:
Balam/AGar...do you then agree with how Lord Fonzi and "Gummybear" used their votes (I know I just referred to ourselves in the third person, but I couldn't think of a better way to grammatically say that)?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

@Yos...we're not "continually attacking you for your Ether-town read." We mentioned it and clarified it a couple times.
You say that in response to you 615 but this is at least the second time now that you've used words like "continually" or "persistently" to make it seem like us delving into answers we're not satisfied with is scummy.

Let's say a high percentage of your posts have attacked me on the subject. You've made 6 posts where you brought it up as a point against me, and you've only made 30 posts total, about half of which had little to no content; when someone mentions something in 5% of their posts all game, that's pretty persistent. IF you want to bicker about what the term "continually", whatever; you haven't done anything "continually", since you've lurked so much, but this is one thing you still keep bringing up, and it's frankly bizarre.

The WIFOM part comes with saying that you think "everyone should've known Ether was town" and yet they clearly didn't (which we've said before so that's enough of that)

Well, I strongly suspect that at least some of the people who claimed to suspect Ether were scum (Remember, the people pushing this wagon were Beaver and FD), so I don't find that kind of argument highly convincing. Or to put it another way:

Yos:"Pro-town people shouldn't have suspected Ether, she was obvtown all along".
You: "But some people did, so you're wrong!"
Me:"Yes, some people did. And they're probably scum."

You are either completely missing the entire point of my argument, or we're somehow just talking past each other here.

and then you bringing up that she had three people on her wagon at one point so you saying she was obv town wouldn't make a difference about the NK if other people didn't think she was town because she would still be scummy in their eyes and therefore NOT be the target for the NK...WIFOM.

At some point soon, probably after this game is over, I'm thinking about posting a thread in MD where I do a study on recently completed games and see what % of the people who were killed night 1 correctly suspected a scum during day 1. My predicition is that that % is going to be very, very high.

On mafiascum, my impression is that scum tend to just blatantly kill everyone who suspects them, and they usually get away with it; that's part of the reason scum win so many more mountanious games then they should, statistically speaking, but town does much better in games without night-kills.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

DaSpot: Have you even articulated an opinion about FES? Why on God's green earth are you on the wagon anyway?

Truly one of the funniest questions I've been asked in a mafia game. Try reading something we've said, okay?

@ YFC
Nice reason for lynching us. Yeah...that's our post. Convincing evidence ya got there.

[IceyCupcake]

Really? That's scummy? 'Cause that reads like town in a tunnel trying to derail the wagons that aren't theirs to me.

What you're saying here is that townies will lie about how townie someone else is just to get their favorite lynch through. That's a surprising claim, and one I don't believe. What makes you feel this way?

Copper... failure. Town in a tunnel can and will dismiss weak evidence for other wagons to push their favorite wagon. Fate does it all the time, witness his tunnel on FES.

More to the point, you are suggesting that its evidence that he's scummy because he dismissed evidence against his scumbuddy. I.E. you are presuming knowledge

based on a flip you do not have.

If you believe that SVT is independently scummy enough to lynch, and that danaspot is the likely partner, lynch SVT and if he flips town you'll know you have a null tell.

But I am not sure that's really the point at all.

I'll put my vote here for now.

Vote: Copper

[Greymarble]

Really? That's scummy? 'Cause that reads like town in a tunnel trying to derail the wagons that aren't theirs to me.

What you're saying here is that townies will lie about how townie someone else is just to get their favorite lynch through. That's a surprising claim, and one I don't believe. What makes you feel this way?

Copper... failure. Town in a tunnel can and will dismiss weak evidence for other wagons to push their favorite wagon. Fate does it all the time, witness his tunnel on FES.

More to the point, you are suggesting that its evidence that he's scummy because he dismissed evidence against his scumbuddy. I.E. you are presuming knowledge

based on a flip you do not have.

If you believe that SVT is independently scummy enough to lynch, and that danaspot is the likely partner, lynch SVT and if he flips town you'll know you have a null tell.

But I am not sure that's really the point at all.

I'll put my vote here for now.

Vote: Copper

==============================================

Or I might fail completely.