Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[bgg1996]

Well, Maxous, now that you've seen the question, are you going to answer it?

[Maxous]

If I had to choose now, River or Regfan I guess...

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

No. No no no no no.

"I'll be sure to night kill you" is a joke. There's is no WAY anyone who ISN'T scum looking to implicate an innocent would actually take something like that seriously.

And if you doubt me, well, you might just not see morning

[Regfan]

Wow. A lot to catch up, glad to see two new replacements, welcome Haylen and CryMe!

Wait? You’re unvoting a player who reacted so badly to being voted that he claimed his role?

Indeed, the vote was intially meant as a pressure vote and although his reaction was incredibly scummy I had no intention of lynching anyone at that point regardless if they lied or not.

Non-sequitor. They haven’t communicated much at all. You can’t consider Yura town just because she voted for Bgg, and that goes for any votes!.

If memory serves me correct this was if Magnetic flips mafia not Bgg, and Magnetic and Yura had plenty of interaction, seems you misread.

Andrew’s not providing content and is pretty much active lurking. It looks like he’s providing content, when he isn’t really.

Hit.Nail.Head.

Regfan: For the love of god, put spaces between @ and playername. It is really really annoying when people don’t do that. Also, you’re ignoring everything else Andrew has done and are only voting him because you’ve read his scum games. Then you don’t explain what about his play is scummy and similar in this game?

Congratulations on making another comment without properly reading, I'd stated I thought he was mafia on mulitple instances throughout the game for numerous reasons the reading of his scum games was just the final straw. His play-style as mafia is slightly hard to explain though if you read the games you'll understand what I mean.

How about, you could have asked her what her views and opinions were on other players in the game, asked her about situations? That’s lazy, if you don’t knpw what alignment someone is, then take steps to finding out! Or it shows you’re not really scumhunting.

Because Yura had answered previous questions asked at her in an allignment revealing manner, right?

I will be voting for either Andrew of Bgg depending on what my reread of the last few pages does.

Seems like you had a town-read on S_C at the time of this post, this should contradict with your scumread on Bgg if you had actually re-read you would notice S_C strongly soft-clamin that Bgg is town.

Also, to let it be known, I made my post well before I saw the replacement's wall of
text.

Um. So you clicked to submit, saw a massive wall of text cut your post submitting and you didn't think to read it before clicking submit again?
@ CryMeARiver, so you've laid down a vote without even making a dent in the re-read? What.....

4) Scummy /=/ Scum : Bgg was scumMY because of that post, that doesn't necessarily automatically make him scum. Nowhere did I say he is automatically scum.

Contradiction ahoy! You voted him, voting him is done because you think he's mafia not because you think he's scummy but unsure on his allignment.

I don't think Andrew is mafia.

If I had to lynch somebody right now, it would most definitely be andrew.

.........So you're more certain that A) There's a SK in the game and B) That Andrew is the SK then you are in suspecting anyone else int he room?

In regards to who I am currently fine lynching: Maxomus, Andrew and CMAR. I'm still unsure what I think of the Haylen slot.

[bgg1996]

I am more confident that Andrew is a non-town role than I am of any other player in this game.

[bgg1996]

I don't think I'll get much more out of this.

unvote

Vote: Andrew

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

An interesting point of fact: Both of our replacements have swam in an OCEAN of contradictions.

And, question to Reg: What did you think of Yura? Keeping in mind that Haylen is building on Yura's basis

[vollkan]

You are right. I typed something I didn't think. Now go back and read my bgg case and see how it's not "ridiculous".

As I said before, your "case" was really just you taking every possible negative interpretation and spinning them together. To go through this:

So, you have no scumreads? Do you really think that one vote on me is really going to pressure me into rereading and making a post faster? *whew* I'm in real trouble now! You've gotten this far through the game (28 pages and D2 with 3 flips) and yet you find that no place else could better serve your vote than on me... -_-

Oh goodie, there's more! You actually felt the need to explain why your vote was a "pressure vote" so town didn't find you scummy for it.

*keeps reading*

Pressure voting is useless, but here you actually construct a conspiracy argument* around it being a tactic to stop his vote being criticised. Aside from the fact that your assertion that he has no scumreads is both wrong in fact and was not a reasonable opinion even from this single post that you based this attack on, your argument here really only proves that the pressure vote was useless - not that it was scummy

(* by "conspiracy argument", I mean an argument based on you attributing a motivation to him without proving why that motivation is the most reasonable explanation for his play)

...really? You would "very much" like to lynch him? And it's not like you just snuck that in there, hell, you fucking underlined it... *checks rules to make sure I can curse. we're clear. goes back to ranting* I mean, it's not like you voted me for "pressure" then said "oh, Andrew is scummy", you fucking said "I would like to LYNCH him" and, just in case no one saw it, felt the need to emphasize it by underlining it.

In other words: I here what you're saying. Yet your actions say differently.

*keeps reading*

Or, you know, he might have decided that his vote was doing nothing on you and decided to place it elsewhere. It's useless, sure, but hardly scummy.


...

This is how the game is played. You find someone scummy. You vote them. By voting them, you ARE FULLY AWARE that you are contributing to their lynch BECAUSE YOU FOUND THEM SCUMMY. The point of voting him would be to CONTRIBUTE TO HIS LYNCH. Why else would you fucking vote him?

*sighs, goes and gets something to eat and to drink, comes back hoping it might make a little sense, but doubting it*

I agree with you on the theory side of this, insofar as I don't believe that votes have any use beyond contributing to lynches (ie. I never pressure vote - in fact, my system makes it impossible).

However, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, you still haven't explained why this is scummy. Despite your BIG WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS you still haven't explained what is scummy about this, as opposed to it just being a stupid way to play

It's not just going to become fucking possible because everyone just goes "WELL HELL, I THINK ANDREW SHOULD BE THE LYNCH BECAUSE I FUCKING FEEL LIKE IT". No, it will become, as you say, "possible" when you do something, maybe ISO him and show the town WHY he should be the lynch. It shouldn't just be "sitting on him", you have to actually give valid reasons and stuff of why you vote him.

*goes back to reading, hoping it will end soon*

The only way this is scummy is if you are implying that he isn't doing enough to push Andrew as a lynch candidate. Since you hadn't read any of his previous posts, however, you can't possibly be drawing that implication on any reasonable grounds. Thus, your argument is, again, you latching onto the worst possible interpretation.

Do you REALLY think that? REALLY? That I might come to the computer, see your one vote, and shit my pants and make sure the reread and my posting comes faster because of one vote? I hope not, or whatever...

*could it get much worse?*

Again, useless =/= scummy

Translation: Hopefully town would be dumb enough to all drop their scumreads and all come put stupid "pressure votes" down all at the same time on CMAR and he will be quick hammered. I'm speculating as to what my buddies should join me in doing. Now I'm going refer to CMAR as a townie. Whoops! A scumslip! Now I'm going to speculate that town will lose if they lynch a townie for no reason. Now I'm going to confirm that I indeed don't think CMAR is scum by saying that he's not yet "at that level", but that I'm going to vote him anyway because I damn well please.

And, as I have already demonstrated, this flat-out contradicts your subsequent explanations - and you still haven't provided any meaningful explanation beyond, in essence, "I was thinking one thing and typed the exact opposite in staggering detail"

She said prior to this that she is a sheep. So perhaps she felt she'd done something wrong when she was criticised and should be voting with everyone else.

And yet, she'd been comfortable enough with not being sheepish in voting me in the first place. In fact, she even said:

Ahhhhh since no one is choosing volkan for their vote Ima choose him n n ders miles edgeworth Acting funny

The above actually shows that, far from following people, she was actually trying to go against the grain. If she really is just confused and scared about breaking from the pack, such an attitude makes no sense. If, however, it was just newbscum trying to be contrite and avoid the limelight, it makes perfect sense

Because, from her point of view and my point of view, the only people who could find her threatening is scum. Thus why she asked the whether he truly found her to be a threat.

Which relies on us assuming that, on being voted, Yura would, to begin with, think "They must be voting me because they are scum and consider me a threat". The first part is a strange assumption to make, and the second is downright ridiculous.

Newbie town are infinately more paranoid than newbie scum. Newbie scum only have to worry that they have been caught out. Newbie town worry that anybody in the game could be scum: "is it the guy who's claimed cop or the person I've been defending all game", they worry that they have done the wrong thing (for example: hammer) and that they're going to get lynched next day. They worry that their skills are so shockingly undeveloped that their reads are totally wrong. They worry that they've somehow said something that could be mistaken as a scumslip. Mostly, what they are worried about is that if they're lynched, the town isn't going to win - they have a massive fear of being lynched when it really doesn't matter.

Scum don't have to worry about anybody buddying them, cause they're the one doing the buddying most of the time! They don't gave to worry that the person they're attacking isn't scum, because they're scum themselves. ect ect.

Town paranoia is completely different to scum paranoia. In this case, she was worried CKD was buddying her. Only a townie would need to be worried about this.

All fine as a matter of general theory, but what doesn't make sense is that this gives her an entirely contradictory attitude - she both thinks that anyone who votes her is trying to eliminate her as a "threat" but also that anyone who defends her is scum buddying. It's actually unusual for newbie town, given (as you say) the high priority they place on survival, to be worried about somebody defending them; generally, they tend to be thought of as a white knight

A fallacy that tends to be wrong.

"too townie" is a fallacy where the argument is "This person is playing too well/too hard, so they must be scum"

It isn't a fallacy where it is directed at a person who makes superficial rhetorical attempts to appear town/genuine

[andrew94]

alright. so bgg your saying im the Sk, and you made random points (1 2 3 4 etc) basically your reasoning is that tclawren died by a stab that i must be a sk? right?


@volkan, i have to say, your argument with haylen, which took up half your post, looks like a 'fake wall', if you get what i mean.
what do you have to say about bgg and surprise.

[vollkan]

what do you have to say about bgg and surprise.

Unless I've missed something, I just don't get any relevant read from it. My understanding is that bgg is making a statistical argument (which I don't follow) about the setup, but I can't see what the ultimate issues are. Frankly, I'm waiting for it to reach some sort of conclusion so that I can understand it properly.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Can we just let Andrew take a swing? It might be me being used to games that only last two or three days, but I'm pretty tired of having my top three constantly battling for who gets to act scummiest.

If it hasn't been explained by the time I get up why Andrew's latest post makes me want to see him dead, I'll explain then. Otherwise, goodnight folks.

[havingfitz]

Votecount 2.15:

Haylen – 3 (vollkan, Surprise_Carcinogen, Maxous)

bgg1996 - 1 (CryMeARiver)
Andrew94 - 2 (curiouskarmadog, bgg1996)
CryMeARiver - 1 (subgenius)
curiouskarmadog - 1 (Andrew94)
Maxous - 1 (Regfan)

Not voting: (Haylen)

With 10 players left it’s 6 to lynch.

Day 2 will end no later than midnight EST on April 6th.

[Maxous]

Okay I re-read all of Andrew's posts. He has'nt been the most pro-town player here in terms of questioning everybody(he picks and chooses) and he has been defensive at times.
He however has followed a consistent thought-line on what mafia do, and pointed it out when these 'tells' came up, has made mostly reasonable enough points(even if I don't agree with all of them), questioned those who agree with him when he felt something was up and SC's initial case on him was simply wrong. I really don't see how he reads as mafia.

Seriously, somebody summarise please.

[bgg1996]

I was going to summarize all of Andrew's posts, but I gave up around halfway through.


The first thing that sticks out is that he doesn't seem to be reading the thread very well.
The second thing that sticks out is that he seems to be posting unrelated information. Usually, I would disregard this, but he mentioned that Yura talked like a man at least twice. When you start repeating useless things like that, it's more because you want to fill space in your posts than goofing around.
It may be weird that he felt the need to point out the fact that he wouldn't read walls, but I'll have to read those posts in context later.
ISO#9 is fairly strange as well. After attacking S_C about deflecting the conversation away from day 1, S_C makes a post saying "Well, what would you like me to refer to about day 1?". ISO#9 quotes this exact post, and says "again, you are pointing to my lack of posts to suggest that i am lurking and to discredit my case." He then goes on to attack him more for deflecting. I can't make heads or tails of it.


Finally, there's something off to me about his votes and suspicions, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
Help me out?

His first post was to vote for Magnetic, as apparently he claimed mafia roleblocker in one of his previous games.
His fifth post, day 2, he votes for surprise for deflecting attention away from day 1.
His sixth post, he foses ckd because of a misinterpreted post.
His seventh post, he admits he "might have misread".
His fiftienth post he unfoses ckd, foses maxous for fence sitting, and foses subgenius because his posts look like they're coaching Yura(Haylen now).
His twenty-first post, he foses me because I said "To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN." when I meant to say "To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN."
His Twenty-third post, he notices that ckd commented on the same thing twice, and says it reads scum to him.
His Thirty-seventh post, he changes his vote to ckd, and wonders why he didn't do so already.



I'm not saying that any of these are scummy, and this is nearly completely unrelated to Maxous' question.



Also,
@Andrew94: Do you still think that Surprise_Carcinogen is scummy, in light of everything?

[Haylen]

I'm trying to decide between Carcin and Regfan as my 3rd choice. I'll get to the case tomorrow - I'm V/LA at the weekends generally.

[andrew94]

@bgg, well surprise soft claimed and it concluded you in the 'innocent' list, so ill wait till he claims.

what cant you make heads or tails of? i was attacking surrprise, surprise then attacked me for lurking, (which is deflecting) (And i am not lurking)
and so it goes

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Out and say it, both of you. You either disbelieve my claim, or don't. Make your call now, and stop pussyfooting around. It's weak, and at BEST a null-tell. At this stage, given my suspicions of both of you, failing to give a proper opinion at this stage is dodgy at best.

[bgg1996]

This was your post, Andrew.

Well, what would you like me to refer to about day 1? It was dominated by someone whose sole purpose was to mislead and confuse us. If there's something from D1 you'd like me to answer for, go ahead and ask. But so far, you're not making a solid accusation, just "Ignoring day1, this is scummy", not "You did this this and this on D1, this is scummy". one of those two statements is scumhunting. one is a crappy attempt at a pointless case. You be the judge.

tl;dr if you think I'm ignoring something, tell me what it is.

again, you are pointing to my lack of posts to suggest that i am lurking and to discredit my case. do you even know what lurking is? its not 'posting low amounts', its 'cant post a lot'. then, the only confusion about magnetic was the fact that he said 'weak doctor protect fails if attaack by more than 1 person', to me: that was what THE NORMAL DOC does anyway. and also at the end where he listed everyone as likely town.
and thus u hammered and you were WRONG. BUT U CONTINUED TO START THE DAY WITH A LEAD (PROB FAIL COS UR SCUM)

First, you attack surprise for deflecting attention away from day 1. She makes that post, which says

absolutely nothing about you lurking or your lack of posts

, and then you start off saying "again, you are pointing to my lack of posts to suggest that i am lurking and to discredit my case." Your entire post says

nothing

about what the post you quoted was about.


In your next post, you

continue

to attack Surprise_Carcinogen for deflecting attention away from it. Your examples of deflecting away from day 1 include nothing but attacking other players, for fairly logical reasons, and not mentioning anything from day 1. That

also refers to most of us here, including you

, except for the fact that you haven't been using

logical reasons

, like most everyone else.

That is what I cannot make heads or tails of.

[andrew94]

Side note, everybody look at Andrew's ISO. Five posts, 2 votes, no substance(I'm tempted to say 4 posts, since one is just him accusing yura of being a man). And aside from that, I dislike his refusal to read 'walls' since it pretty well excludes him from any real argument or well-made case, since they are all going to pretty well come in wall form. There is simply too little to go on for me to have an idea if he's scum yet or not, but what there is definitely points to anti-town behavior, at best, and scum at worst.

this was the post

[bgg1996]

So you quoted the wrong post?

[andrew94]

read pages 10 11 and 12.

that argument has been going on for a long time since page 10, u missed page 10 11 perhaps

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

No, he didn't because you made an answer that was entirely incorrect for the post you quoted, which means one of two things. Either you misquoted, or you were making up whatever you thought might work. Now, since you have already stated that you did not, in fact, misquote, then there can only really be one logical conclusion.

[curiouskarmadog]

both my games will be updated tonight....

[Regfan]

To be blunt, I'm not feeling sure about any of my reads at the moment and it's something that's making me less and less inclined to do anything. I'm going to do a mass re-read of the entire game to attempt to regain focus later today, if anyone has any questions or would like me to take particular notice over any specific points state so in the next few hours.

[havingfitz]

VC bump...