The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Copper]

Really? That's scummy? 'Cause that reads like town in a tunnel trying to derail the wagons that aren't theirs to me.

What you're saying here is that townies will lie about how townie someone else is just to get their favorite lynch through. That's a surprising claim, and one I don't believe. What makes you feel this way?

Copper... failure. Town in a tunnel can and will dismiss weak evidence for other wagons to push their favorite wagon. Fate does it all the time, witness his tunnel on FES.

Dismissing evidence is one thing. Postively creating false evidence is quite another. DaSpot is not saying, "It's not all that scummy that Beaver lurked"; he's saying, "Beaver wasn't lurking." A world of difference between those two.

More to the point, you are suggesting that its evidence that he's scummy because he dismissed evidence against his scumbuddy. I.E. you are presuming knowledge

based on a flip you do not have.

No we're not. We're actually advocating exactly the opposite. From our ISO 14:

daSpot's ultimatum that BeaverWeasel wasn't lurking is silly. It reads like a scumbag trying for easy town-credit by defending the undefendable.

That being said, YossarianFlavouredCayke's idea that daSpot is scumbuddies with SVT is similarly silly.

Have you ever seen a scumbuddy blatantly lie to defend a buddy like that? You don't defend such a failure of a slot with such vehemence unless you're absolutely sure you'll be vindicated by a townflip - say, if you're scum and they're not on your team.

If you believe that SVT is independently scummy enough to lynch,

We do not. From our ISO 19:

Still, it's hard for me to muster too much righteous fury against the SVT slot when both of today's wagons are on good targets. I think the best course is simply to grin and bear it, and hope the third time is the charm for that slot to actually produce some content.

and that danaspot is the likely partner,

We don't think this.

lynch SVT and if he flips town you'll know you have a null tell.

A SVT-scum flip suggests DaSpot as likely town, a SVT-townflip tells us...not much at all. Another good reason to sit on this for a day.

==============================================

Or I might fail completely.

A thought occurs. Has it just crossed over to April 1st in your timezone?

[Greymarble]

Oh gimme a break Copper. Scum are already abusing that meta by defending their partners to the hilt. Since scum never defend their partners, even if the person they're defending flips scum, they must be town!

Second, I'd say that kcdaspot, far more than you or I, is an expert on lurking. Did you ever consider he simply meant it in exactly the context he said it in? Lets quote it for a second:

If they are lurking they should be skimming then RIGHT?
*SVT/Beaver ISO.*
nope. no skimming here. they had a opinion they stuck with it answering questions alongside.

I mean kcdaspot knows his lurking. It means checking the damn thread repeatedly while hoping the attention goes elsewhere. Loud screaming and bandwagons usually make the lurker come running. BW, in contrast, was flaking - periods of inactivity parsed by sporadic bursts, and a complete lack of familiarity with the recent events that bespoke a player no longer connected with the game in any way.

No. kcdaspot is town. I can and will make a case for it. And he's not sticking his neck out to protect a potential mislynch as scum. I know that much too. I can make a meta case, but it's not meta, it's just personality. People can change their actions, but it's hard to change who they are.

You are pushing a case on town while holding open a case on someone I am not sure is scum. And leaving the possibilty of a danaspot town flip to push SVT/BW back into scum.

In short for a hydra that posts a lot of information, your analysis is weaksauce.

[Copper]

Oh gimme a break Copper. Scum are already abusing that meta by defending their partners to the hilt. Since scum never defend their partners, even if the person they're defending flips scum, they must be town!

I don't understand what you're saying here. You claimed that we were scummy for claiming daSpot was defending SVT-scumbuddy. We responded, "No, actually, we think he's defending SVT mislynch-bait." Now you're saying, "No Copper, it would make sense for daSpot to defend SVT-scumbuddy."

I feel like you're just throwing a theory point at us. You think that daSpot's interactions with SVT would make sense with both of them being scum; we don't. Regardless, your claim that we supported the idea they're scumbuddies is demonstrably false.

No. kcdaspot is town. I can and will make a case for it. And he's not sticking his neck out to protect a potential mislynch as scum. I know that much too. I can make a meta case, but it's not meta, it's just personality. People can change their actions, but it's hard to change who they are.

We would welcome such a case.

You are pushing a case on town while holding open a case on someone I am not sure is scum. And leaving the possibilty of a danaspot town flip to push SVT/BW back into scum.

Your point about a daSpot town flip is senseless. Are you saying that if daSpot flips town, SVT is confirmed town? Or are you in exactly the same position we are -- that a daSpot townflip doesn't reveal much about the alignment of the SVT slot? Yes, we could potentially push the SVT slot after a daSpot townflip, but it would not be

because

of a daSpot townflip. It will come down to the nature of the content from the third holder of the slot.

In short for a hydra that posts a lot of information, your analysis is weaksauce.

This seems to be the thrust of your case against us - that our analysis does not agree with yours and is therefore weaksauce and scummy. You think dana is town and FES might be town; we think they're both likely scum. Perhaps you're wrong. Perhaps we're wrong. We'd like to see your dana-town and FES-town arguments and judge for ourselves. To not post them and then call us scummy for having differing reads from you is, quite frankly, nonsensical.

[Lord Gurgi]

(AGar)

Balam: I find it ironic that you are on FES for lack of vote hopping when the other members of your fine wagon have cited his vote hopping. Can you explain your reasoning for going after FES rather than Gummybear, because I can't see any. You do have that right? I mean you accuse FES of never moving their vote not three posts down from Gummybear refusing to move their vote in their first post in a while. What the hell?

Our accusations of FES aren't that he's

lacking

in votehopping. Are you illiterate? Do you not speak English? Or just stupid? Seriously. FES said "We want to lynch FD." The rest of the game pretty much said "No, not happening." FES then proceeded to sit there saying "Ok. But we're not going to move our vote, except to maybe DaSpot. But we'll see," and did

absolutely nothing else whatsoever

to make the wagon on FD viable, present another viable target or get momentum behind the DaSpot wagon. A town player's vote is their

strongest

tool and they pretty much stuck it away in a corner where it knowingly wouldn't be used at all.

(AGar)

To my mind, not moving one's vote and moving one's vote too much are diametrically opposed actions. Perhaps you disagree with me. Do you feel that FES's new movement in self defense is a scum-tell or a town-tell? Feel like addressing the Gummybear aspect of my question?

DaSpot: Have you even articulated an opinion about FES? Why on God's green earth are you on the wagon anyway?

Truly one of the funniest questions I've been asked in a mafia game. Try reading something we've said, okay?

I couldn't find a well articulated position that is recent enough to be valid when I made that post. Which is of course why I challenged you to make one. I welcome you citing an example, or even just articulating something fresh for me. I don't think we really need to have this back and forth when you could have quoted an old position or outlined your thoughts.

[Lord Fonzi]

(AGar)

Balam: I find it ironic that you are on FES for lack of vote hopping when the other members of your fine wagon have cited his vote hopping. Can you explain your reasoning for going after FES rather than Gummybear, because I can't see any. You do have that right? I mean you accuse FES of never moving their vote not three posts down from Gummybear refusing to move their vote in their first post in a while. What the hell?

Our accusations of FES aren't that he's

lacking

in votehopping. Are you illiterate? Do you not speak English? Or just stupid? Seriously. FES said "We want to lynch FD." The rest of the game pretty much said "No, not happening." FES then proceeded to sit there saying "Ok. But we're not going to move our vote, except to maybe DaSpot. But we'll see," and did

absolutely nothing else whatsoever

to make the wagon on FD viable, present another viable target or get momentum behind the DaSpot wagon. A town player's vote is their

strongest

tool and they pretty much stuck it away in a corner where it knowingly wouldn't be used at all.

(AGar)

To my mind, not moving one's vote and moving one's vote too much are diametrically opposed actions. Perhaps you disagree with me. Do you feel that FES's new movement in self defense is a scum-tell or a town-tell? Feel like addressing the Gummybear aspect of my question?

DaSpot: Have you even articulated an opinion about FES? Why on God's green earth are you on the wagon anyway?

Truly one of the funniest questions I've been asked in a mafia game. Try reading something we've said, okay?

I couldn't find a well articulated position that is recent enough to be valid when I made that post. Which is of course why I challenged you to make one. I welcome you citing an example, or even just articulating something fresh for me. I don't think we really need to have this back and forth when you could have quoted an old position or outlined your thoughts.

My bad.

[GreyICE]

I'll put together a case Copper, but at the moment you are scummy because you are pushing a weak case far harder than it deserves. LAL on daspot when he explained the difference between lurking and what he thought BW was doing? Weaksauce. Too hard for too little - that was an honest read, and you yell LAL?

FES town is MUCH weaker, but spotty is TOWN. And on top of that you are overplaying a weak hand for your case. I dun like it copper.

[Balam]

Preview Edit:
Balam/AGar...do you then agree with how Lord Fonzi and "Gummybear" used their votes (I know I just referred to ourselves in the third person, but I couldn't think of a better way to grammatically say that)?

Grammatically speaking, it would be "do you then agree with how Lord Fonzi and ourselves have used our votes"

How do you mean used your votes? I see you revoting SVT, which is being addressed in a minute. Lord Fonzi isn't voting at this time. I need you to clarify this question, because I don't understand.

(AGar)

Balam: I find it ironic that you are on FES for lack of vote hopping when the other members of your fine wagon have cited his vote hopping. Can you explain your reasoning for going after FES rather than Gummybear, because I can't see any. You do have that right? I mean you accuse FES of never moving their vote not three posts down from Gummybear refusing to move their vote in their first post in a while. What the hell?

Our accusations of FES aren't that he's

lacking

in votehopping. Are you illiterate? Do you not speak English? Or just stupid? Seriously. FES said "We want to lynch FD." The rest of the game pretty much said "No, not happening." FES then proceeded to sit there saying "Ok. But we're not going to move our vote, except to maybe DaSpot. But we'll see," and did

absolutely nothing else whatsoever

to make the wagon on FD viable, present another viable target or get momentum behind the DaSpot wagon. A town player's vote is their

strongest

tool and they pretty much stuck it away in a corner where it knowingly wouldn't be used at all.

(AGar)

To my mind, not moving one's vote and moving one's vote too much are diametrically opposed actions. Perhaps you disagree with me. Do you feel that FES's new movement in self defense is a scum-tell or a town-tell? Feel like addressing the Gummybear aspect of my question?

What was the point of quoting that I posted it? As for your question, it wasn't the just parking it - it was parking it

AND

not trying to sell it as a viable lynch. Look at FES's posting. They vote FD (on an awful case, I might add), then park their vote. People acknowledge that the wagon isn't going to take off or gather any steam, but the content remains empty, the most we got was "We're not going to compromise to a wagon that seems worse. We might be willing to switch to DaSpot though." Does that look in any way at all pro-town to you? So we disagree to an extent - the actions you are seeing are not the same as the actions we are. You're seeing a much more simplified view of things, I would say.

Gummybear hasn't been our favorite poster this game, and we've acknowledged this. They are to a degree doing the same thing, you're right. But we've come to the consensus that while GB is definitely an acceptable lynch, GB is at the very least giving reads out at the time, with some logic and explanation behind them, and is on a "wait-and-see" basis, while FES has up until very recently been sliding by and practically lurked the case off of themselves.

Need to consult on the last question, but personally null, if you must know any answer right away.

---

God dammit GreyICE. Learn to post in your hydra.. AND THE RIGHT ONE. [/rant]

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

@Lord Fonzi

If you're going to make this claim, back it up.

mmkay

Vote:Frogito Ergo Scum

that's one

Unvote:
Vote: FES

that's two

VOTE: FES

and thats three

all three votes are on page 8 and 9 with untrod's on 8 and FD and our votes on 9, which is ALSO where we posted this.

Frogito Ergo Sum

Posts 0-9
Tunnels on us.
Post 10
Suddenly changes their mind and says we were probably playing badly, not scummily. Only...there's no unvote.
Post 13
Unvotes and votes Final Destination, who they had not mentioned, simply because of some scumhunting someone else did. Adds nothing to the discussion.
Post 16
Tries to rectroactively give a little reasoning and comes up with meta and "their response reeked of scummy". Not convincing at all. Still looks like a bandwagon vote.
Post 18
Tries to explain why meta works here, and doesn't succeed, since Fate would normally be going crazy as scum, too.

and there you are

now..

P.S. Yes, you were pushing the wagon.

NO WE WERE NOT. WE PULLED OFF AND WE STAYED OFF
YOU BACK THIS SHIT UP

just saying...

We want a FES lynch. today.

also, to clarify what my other head was mentioning...

Btw: reason # 174 why we need to lynch DaSpot today:

quote="DaSpotthatkillsu"]
I know of VERY few roles for which not claiming at L-1 with the pressure still on like this would be actually pro-town. Spit it out, man. A claim is THE ONLY WAY (barring investigations by other players) I will ever believe FES is town.

Can we please just kill this scum?[/quote]

[YosFlavouredCayke]

That being said, YossarianFlavouredCayke's idea that daSpot is scumbuddies with SVT is similarly silly.

Have you ever seen a scumbuddy blatantly lie to defend a buddy like that? You don't defend such a failure of a slot with such vehemence unless you're absolutely sure you'll be vindicated by a townflip - say, if you're scum and they're not on your team.

You're missing all the context here.

For a long time, DaSpot was trying to discourage a Beaver lynch in relitivly subtle ways, like attacking me for going after what he called an "easy wagon". I pointed out that he seemed to be trying to prevent a beaver lynch, and first he blew me off; I continued, and he attacked me in order to try to avoid answering my questions, and he only finally admitted that he was defending Beaver when I pinned him to the wall on the subject and didn't let up. That was when he had to invent a justification for his defense of Beaver, and, as you pointed out, it was quite bad. But I don't think DaSpot wanted to be seen to be defending Beaver; it looks like he was hoping to kill the Beaver wagon without anyone noticing he was doing it, and only tried to invent a pro-town justification for his defense of Beaver when he didn't have any other way out.

[Unicorn Brethren]

Stop prodding us. We're tactically lurking. FFS!

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

UB do you have ANY input whatsoever about the last few pages? any at all?

i mean the last post you have done was back on page 23.

[Unicorn Brethren]

Here's input:

Greymarble's unvote of FES in #595 after his "scumread" Balam ninja'd him and voted FES as well, is retarded.

Unvote; Vote: FES

Make it so.

[Greymarble]

Hey look, RETARDATION.

We should have policy lynched this waste of oxygen on day 1.

[Greymarble]

Oh well, Llamarble's input is in, and not that it matters, but he suggests FES/Fonzi.

DaSpot is ferociously, actively, painfully town, and we will all be very mad at you multi-headed morons if you lynch him for no good reason. Well except those of you who are scum, that's expected.

UB is a better lynch if you want to lynch town, but I suggest lynching scum.

Got my fingers crossed on this one.

[Copper]

daSpot, you missed this question:

I know of VERY few roles for which not claiming at L-1 with the pressure still on like this would be actually pro-town. Spit it out, man. A claim is THE ONLY WAY (barring investigations by other players) I will ever believe FES is town.

Why such certainty?

---

I'll put together a case Copper, but at the moment you are scummy because you are pushing a weak case far harder than it deserves. LAL on daspot when he explained the difference between lurking and what he thought BW was doing? Weaksauce. Too hard for too little - that was an honest read, and you yell LAL?

"Pushing a weak case"? We're not voting for daSpot. We're simply saying why daSpot is our secondary scum suspect (after your prompting, no less). If you disagree, then tell us

why

he is ferociously, actively, painfully town. I'm beginning to get irritated with "I'm voting Copper because he doesn't agree with the reasoning I refuse to share."

---

You're missing all the context here.

For a long time, DaSpot was trying to discourage a Beaver lynch in relitivly subtle ways, like attacking me for going after what he called an "easy wagon". I pointed out that he seemed to be trying to prevent a beaver lynch, and first he blew me off; I continued, and he attacked me in order to try to avoid answering my questions, and he only finally admitted that he was defending Beaver when I pinned him to the wall on the subject and didn't let up. That was when he had to invent a justification for his defense of Beaver, and, as you pointed out, it was quite bad. But I don't think DaSpot wanted to be seen to be defending Beaver; it looks like he was hoping to kill the Beaver wagon without anyone noticing he was doing it, and only tried to invent a pro-town justification for his defense of Beaver when he didn't have any other way out.

This is an interesting point, and something we apparently missed on our first read-through. Let us think on this.

---

Oh well, Llamarble's input is in, and not that it matters, but he suggests FES/Fonzi.

Why doesn't Llamarble's input matter?

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

daSpot, you missed this question:

I know of VERY few roles for which not claiming at L-1 with the pressure still on like this would be actually pro-town. Spit it out, man. A claim is THE ONLY WAY (barring investigations by other players) I will ever believe FES is town.

Why such certainty?

this was my other head speaking and he hasn't been in the QT much so he might word this better but I get it. FES has not done a pro-town thing all game and has been under pressure for most of it. Why hasn't he claimed? Does he have an ace up his sleeve that doesn't benefit the town (therefore scum)? Does he not know WHAT to claim? FES: you are now at L-1, You've been here before. Claim. Now.

also noting greymarble not counting votes.

finally: Beaverweasel was fail town. SVT was better town. that slot is town. I will stand my ground on that. If either of us EVER switch our stances on this it will be for a good reason backed by CLEAR evidence. no other reason, including the cases out there right now against that slot can as of current convince us otherwise.

[Greymarble]

Oh well, Llamarble's input is in, and not that it matters, but he suggests FES/Fonzi.

Why doesn't Llamarble's input matter?

Because that looks an awful lot like a Unicorn Hammer up there in the thread above us, so shortly opinions on FES' alignment are going to become very extremely moot.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

Greymarble: it's L-1.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I can't believe we are seriously this close to lynching FES here. This is so obviously a mislynch, it hurts to watch.

Can we please lynch someone who at least has a chance of being scum?

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

kay so why is FES town?

meta arguments won't here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

kay so why is FES town?

meta arguments won't here.

He's been doing more real scumhunting then 90% of this game. Every vote he's made all game has a pretty obvious pro-town motive. He's consistently been aggressive and logical in scumhunting. It's quite obvious that finding and lynching scum has been a higher priority for them then survival has been all game. His refusal to vote Beaver at the start of today, when he was at huge risk of being killed, for example, is very unlikely as a scum (unless he's scum with Beaver, which dosn't seem that likely here). Instead, he's kept voting for FD, the guy he gave logical reasons for suspecting as long ago as day 1, and refused to let the fact that he was clearly risking his life to do or the fact that other people didn't agree change his mind. And day 1, his behavior was quite obviously pro-town; there's no way a scum makes this post:

EBWOP:
We didn't notice that it was L-1 when we placed our vote, but we're aware of it now.

Also, day 1 stuff like the sparring with Ether about the Gummybear wagon was obviously pro-town. He also disagreed with the US wagon on day 1, in a situation where he was at a significant risk of being lynched himself

All of the actions FES have done basically all game are pretty consistently pro-town actions; none of it makes sense for FES scum, it all makes perfect sense for FES town. No one has made a case against him that makes a lick of sense at all to me, and yet he's at lynch -1. This is pretty clearly a bad bandwagon, and probably a scum driven one.

[Greymarble]

This game sucks moose, and I want to die every time I read it.

Cayke was that defense designed to make me WANT to vote for FES? Every point in it was either bad or terribad.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Unvote, Vote: Unicorn Brethren

I want the truth

now

about at least one of two things:

1. Do you really have 6 heads?
2. Do you still stand by your claims in this post?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

This game sucks moose, and I want to die every time I read it.

Cayke was that defense designed to make me WANT to vote for FES? Every point in it was either bad or terribad.

That is probably the most worthless post you've made all game.

If you don't agree with one specific point in that, then explain what it is. I don't know what the hell you're doing today. I really thought you were town yesterday, but between your horrible attacks on FES, your stupid wall-of-text war with Balam that went nowhere and proved nothing, and your irrational defense of Spot, I don't know where your head is today at all.

I think every point I made in there is clearly true, and easily backed up by game evidence. If you don't, then you need to say what, and why. And you need to do it now, especially if you intend to survive tomorrow if you push through a mislynch on FES today.

-Yos

[Greymarble]

Okay, then lets start.

- his case on FD was crap.
- he's made like... two votes all game. One for FD, one for a hydra I consider obvtown
- That post you quoted was just kinda null-flavored bland
- This is the gummybear post:

What do you think I was trying to say?

We were talking about the presented quotes in #120. We originally thought the contradiction was imaginary but after AIM-fueled reflection came to the conclusion that the point of view Gummybear puts forth does contain an inconsistency. We however feel the inconsistency is, if anything, genuine and not the result of intentionally taking an anti-town position. We dislike the amount of reasoning put forth in #120 since, as evidenced by our position, we don't feel the relevant conclusion follows as straightforwardly as the lack of reasoning suggests.

I dun see how that's very town.

It honestly reads like you flipped through his ISO and grabbed a few reasons he might be town.