Mini 1137: Long Overdue Mafia [Game Over!]

[Voidedmafia]

@Neil: You said that you do not agree with Lynch All Liars, but you said you would lynch pappum rat, not because of his lie, but because of what the lie could have done. Isn't that the logic behind Lynch All Liars?

I would think it'd be because of the lie, not what comes of the lie.

EBWOP for ninja: Dismissing my case as WIFOM won't make it go away. How is it WIFOM? Explanation please.

How do you know he knows its a weak case? Rat's wagon could be the best wagon, and Neil's jumping on Fitz for various reasons, or the other way around. Big WIFOM.

Also, he can't give another reason to lynch Rat other than the gambit? Barnum can't try to lynch someone else other than Fitz or Rat today? Those should be easy to answer: Yes, they both can.

[havingfitz]

Well welcome Bub. I hope this flurry of activity lasts. I have not looked at neil that much since my focus on pappum was joined by Cecily and IK. With my current uncertainty towards the pappum role, that would bump up the possibility that neil was scum IMO. But it's not a strong enough feeling towards neil to want to see him go today over Cecily...and perhaps Pine or IK.

So I'm thinking my top five atm are: Cecily, IK & Pine, neil OR pappum.
****************

@Cecily...thanks for chiming in and saying nothing.

[neil1113]

Well welcome Bub. I hope this flurry of activity lasts. I have not looked at neil that much since my focus on pappum was joined by Cecily and IK. With my current uncertainty towards the pappum role, that would bump up the possibility that neil was scum IMO. But it's not a strong enough feeling towards neil to want to see him go today over Cecily...and perhaps Pine or IK.

So I'm thinking my top five atm are: Cecily, IK & Pine, neil OR pappum.
****************

@Cecily...thanks for chiming in and saying nothing.

Wow, this post right here makes me worry about my town assessment of you. How on earth does his post contribute anything at all towards your view of me? Here's what I think: You simply take a (fluffed WIFOM filled case) and make it seem like it's more then what it is, and then use it as justification to try to get rid of me because I'm causing you trouble. Why would a town motivated person do this?

In fact, this causes me so much worry I'm but a second away from changing my vote onto you.

[havingfitz]

Wow? What is the problem neil? You are very defensive with anyone who casts an eye your way. My position on you hasn't changed...feel fee to ISO me. And do I need to repost my entire case on you everytime I mention your name as a suspect? If I am stepping back a bit from pappum I have to consider you again. And your threat at the end is silly. Feel free to vote me. Just realize there are consequences for being on mislynches...especially when you have no sound reasoning for being there.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Well welcome Bub. I hope this flurry of activity lasts. I have not looked at neil that much since my focus on pappum was joined by Cecily and IK. With my current uncertainty towards the pappum role, that would bump up the possibility that neil was scum IMO. But it's not a strong enough feeling towards neil to want to see him go today over Cecily...and perhaps Pine or IK.

So I'm thinking my top five atm are: Cecily, IK & Pine, neil OR pappum.
****************

@Cecily...thanks for chiming in and saying nothing.

Wow, this post right here makes me worry about my town assessment of you. How on earth does his post contribute anything at all towards your view of me? Here's what I think: You simply take a (fluffed WIFOM filled case) and make it seem like it's more then what it is, and then use it as justification to try to get rid of me because I'm causing you trouble. Why would a town motivated person do this?

In fact, this causes me so much worry I'm but a second away from changing my vote onto you.

You haven't answered my questions, Neil.

@Neil: You said that you do not agree with Lynch All Liars, but you said you would lynch pappum rat, not because of his lie, but because of what the lie could have done. Isn't that the logic behind Lynch All Liars?

Dismissing my case as WIFOM won't make it go away. How is it WIFOM? Explanation please.

Please answer my questions. How is my case fluff filled WIFOM?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Well welcome Bub. I hope this flurry of activity lasts. I have not looked at neil that much since my focus on pappum was joined by Cecily and IK. With my current uncertainty towards the pappum role, that would bump up the possibility that neil was scum IMO. But it's not a strong enough feeling towards neil to want to see him go today over Cecily...and perhaps Pine or IK.

So I'm thinking my top five atm are: Cecily, IK & Pine, neil OR pappum.
****************

@Cecily...thanks for chiming in and saying nothing.

Cecily has been acting scummy, too. She's taken the position that scum would want to take: split between both wagons ready to hop on the other one the next day. Also, I really don't like her switch post:

Well now, this post could ruin me, or you guys could read it like I'm intending for it to be read and not jump instantly to "flail flail flail". Please choose the latter.

My original reason for voting fitz is because of his emotional responses to pappums gambit. He seemed to take it as an attack on the town (which could be one way to interpret it), yet reacted much more forcefully than what everyone else expected. Up until a few posts ago, that was the scummiest behavior out of anyone in here and like I pointed out initially I like to assess people based off of how they react, not necessarily what they say. I agreed with pappums "fuck you" because the walls and baiting that fitz does are obnoxious and do seem at times to be mostly just to piss people off.

Now, pappums is the one with overly emotional responses. If I'm sticking with my original argument of voting based off of how people react, then his last post consisting of only obscene remarks definitely takes the cake. And because it will probably come up, I only defended pappums in his reasoning for the gambit. If anyone wants to call me out now for something else, please do, I may have forgotten, but defense of his actions was solely reserved for the gambit.

I repeat, I was not consistently defending him, only agreeing with his reasons for voting fitz, so no fair calling me out on that for switching my vote.

unvote
vote: pappums

And I don't have time or energy to go over other people right now so, sorry.

Bold is mine. If she was town, she wouldn't have the need to justify her actions because she would know that her motives were just. This post was an attempt to switch wagons because at that time, she saw that the rat wagon had more steam.

As for Idiot King, what's so scummy about him? I've got a town read on him myself.

[Jahudo]

Rat never looked scummy to me until the end of his part in this game, where he totally blew his top. I read this more as frustrated townie than as cornered scum. It seemed like he was fed up with this game and just wanted out, whether it was because he was lynched or modkilled or replaced.

So you are saying his late actions did look scummy, but you are reading it as frustrated townie? I'm leaning towards that explanation too. Clearly he thought his gambit was going to be better received and wasn't prepared to defend it in the long run. His attitude looked like frustration from that.

@Jahudo: Fitz, the rat slot, or neither?

If you are asking me who I think is more likely to be scum, my fitz vote can explain that. I think the gambit served a scumhunting purpose that helped me get reads on several players, but unfortunately the two hardest players to read from it are pappums and voided because they had inside information. But my gut says both of them are alright.

[Voidedmafia]

*ahem*

How did I have inside info again?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Rat never looked scummy to me until the end of his part in this game, where he totally blew his top. I read this more as frustrated townie than as cornered scum. It seemed like he was fed up with this game and just wanted out, whether it was because he was lynched or modkilled or replaced.

So you are saying his late actions did look scummy, but you are reading it as frustrated townie? I'm leaning towards that explanation too. Clearly he thought his gambit was going to be better received and wasn't prepared to defend it in the long run. His attitude looked like frustration from that.

@Jahudo: Fitz, the rat slot, or neither?

If you are asking me who I think is more likely to be scum, my fitz vote can explain that. I think the gambit served a scumhunting purpose that helped me get reads on several players, but unfortunately the two hardest players to read from it are pappums and voided because they had inside information. But my gut says both of them are alright.

Oops, sorry I missed your fitz vote, that was totally my fault. Generally, I find cautious, diplomatic play like yours to be scummy, but I've played with you before and I know that's how you play. Right now, I've got a neutral read on you.

[Jahudo]

Its just how I play. I like to work slow and methodically regardless of alignment or role.

[Rhinox]

Votecount 1.18

chkflip (0) -
Pine (1) - tarsonisocelot
neil1113 (1) - Bub Bidderskins
P.T. Barnum (0) -
Jahudo (0) -
Bub Bidderskins (0) -
mikemike778 (0) -
Idiotking (0) -
tarsonisocelot (0) -
Voidedmafia (1) - Nachomamma8
Cecily (1) - havingfitz
havingfitz (3) - mikemike778, Jahudo, Idiotking
Nachomamma8 (5) - Voidedmafia, neil1113, Cecily, Pine, P.T. Barnum

not voting (1): chkflip

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1 is

Tuesday, April 5 at 10:00PM EST

.

[havingfitz]

As for Idiot King, what's so scummy about him? I've got a town read on him myself.

I found him scummy for pushing a crap case on me (FMPOV of course) and his continued defense on my top suspect at the time (pappum) despite what I considered to be a strong case against. In addition he has been extrememly lurky and on review of his ISO...he hasn't contributed anything IMO to the game. He's skating scum. I prefer people to not replace out but his slot is a black hole. And while I have taken a step back from pappum/Nacho...I still think there were solid points against him (as evidenced by his competitive wagon) so IK's persistent blind eye to pappum seemed off to me. Along with (FMPOV) his pushing a mislynch. So I'm not sure I would remove IK from my list even if there was a way of knowing for sure what Nacho's alignment is.

[Bub Bidderskins]

At the time, the only basis for your "stron case" was that pappums lied, which in of itself does not justify your tunneling on him. IK brought up some valid points against you. However, you are right that he hasn't posted much recently.

Hey, Idiot King, what do you think of Neil?

[P.T. Barnum]

neil's response to Bub's case confuses me. Where is the WIFOM?

[Nachomamma8]

Rather quick with that reveal, aren't you? Maybe YOU'RE worried about your scumbuddy instead?

But then, that raises the question: Why go after me, then, since I haven't really tried to go after you?

...wait...YOU DON'T SAY WHAT YOUR PM TELLS YOU, YOU IDIOT.

Voidedmafia's initial response to the claim, and what makes him confirmed scum.

First off, voidedmafia's already stated that he is not a miller. So, if he was town, he should have realized that there was absolutely no way in hell that pappum's could be telling the truth, and thus should have resulted in him doing one of two things: 1) calling it out as a gambit, or 2) calling pappums confirmed scum.

In voided's response, he does neither of these things. He tries to weakly defect attention onto pappums with the "maybe you're trying to protect your scumbuddy" (which makes absolutely zero sense), and asks "why would you choose me, pappums?". But the nail in his grave is the golden nugget at the end, where Voided clearly believes pappum's claim and tells him that he isn't supposed to quote Role PMs.

He's also afraid to vote pappums even though pappums should be confirmed scum to him. Even after pappums makes a "very suspicious" post, even after Voided is told paranoid/naive cops are impossible, even after all bits of doubt are systematically taken away, he still insists on abstaining from voting pappums. It's like he's afraid to get into a 1 v 1 with him because he knows pappums is going to flip town, and thus he's going to be lynched.

Then, there's voided's neighbor claim. He is told that his power is impossible several times, and yet doesn't back down or "check his role PM". Then, when Jahudo points out there is another "Neighbor" role that has that power, then he finally comes up with Neighborizer.

Then, when he finally DOES vote pappums, he has the following reasoning:

Because he thinks I'm scum and wants me gone. If you'll note, until he unvoted all his posts were about me being scum, and nothing else. I'm not counting RVS or anything before Idiotking confirmed to start the game, mind. After he unvotes me, he gets on Fitz and Jahudo for seeming overeagerness and the gambit suggestion, respectively. But other than that, it's been all me. Perhaps a case of tunneling?

Which still assumes pappums as town. After all, scum don't think that anyone is scum because they know the scum already...

And then, after pappums admits it's a gambit, THEN voided pushes for his lynch. It's like once reassured that pappum's isn't a one-shot cop with a guilty on him, then he's all gungho for the lynch because he knows he's not dead once pappums flips town.

[Nachomamma8]

oh, and fitz? I'm fairly sure that Cecily is a voided scumbuddy. I'll get into why later.

[Nachomamma8]

But, please trust me and vote voided today, so we can take care of Ceily tomorrow.

[Cecily]

The only reason I opened my post with that line was because I know how some people (*cough cough like bub*) play. Unless something is explicitly stated it's either found to be arrogant, stupid, or unnecessary and I absolutely hate having to rephrase myself because someone wanted to misunderstand my intentions due to preconceived notions. Because that has happened. I'm not down for something like that again.

I'm split between these two main wagons because, like I've been trying to get others to focus on, one or the other will most likely be lynched this day and I don't see the point in voting anyone else unless they really screw up. Both players have scummy aspects to them, and there is a chance that I'll switch my vote again, because the point of this game is to vote the person you think scummiest and that is what I'd like to do without being scrutinized for it.

Having said that, I don't like fitz's targeting of neil. Not that I'm saying neil is obvtown, but it really is seeming like he's only focusing on people who speak out about him. By tomorrow he could have even more people added to his list of 5 already possible scums, just because they question him. It's pretty much like he's saying "I'm right and anyone who disagrees is obviously my enemy" which is not protown at all. The point of having long days like this is to encourage discourse and to allow people to think about who they trust or not, and while it sucks having people think you scummy, there's no reason to go out and attack all of them. People have differing opinions, and that's life and attacking them is definitely not protown behavior.

And woah I'm glad we had replacements in this game. We all pretty much totally overlooked those connections, thanks nacho. Those are some pretty convincing arguments and I must say I'm almost willing to change my vote over them. And theres really nothing I can add to them.

[Nachomamma8]

We still have three days left. But if we want to lynch scum today, it's important that we move now. I can almost guarantee that fitz and myself are town, and thus lynching either of us will result in a mislynch. I don't plan on voting havingfitz and I will not vote havingfitz because I've already caught scum in voided. We have to give the wagon momentum now; we don't really have time to wait.

[Voidedmafia]

Rather quick with that reveal, aren't you? Maybe YOU'RE worried about your scumbuddy instead?

But then, that raises the question: Why go after me, then, since I haven't really tried to go after you?

...wait...YOU DON'T SAY WHAT YOUR PM TELLS YOU, YOU IDIOT.

Voidedmafia's initial response to the claim, and what makes him confirmed scum.

First off, voidedmafia's already stated that he is not a miller.

I did? Are you talking pre or post-claim?

So, if he was town, he should have realized that there was absolutely no way in hell that pappum's could be telling the truth, and thus should have resulted in him doing one of two things: 1) calling it out as a gambit, or 2) calling pappums confirmed scum.

I've only been here, what, 2-3 months? With only two games completed? You miss that?

In voided's response, he does neither of these things. He tries to weakly defect attention onto pappums with the "maybe you're trying to protect your scumbuddy" (which makes absolutely zero sense), and asks "why would you choose me, pappums?".

No one has STILL explained why that's not just knee-jerk <_<

But the nail in his grave is the golden nugget at the end, where Voided clearly believes pappum's claim and tells him that he isn't supposed to quote Role PMs.

Because I THOUGHT that saying you're a sane cop and not just a cop would be stating your role PM and therefore would be against the rules.

He's also afraid to vote pappums even though pappums should be confirmed scum to him. Even after pappums makes a "very suspicious" post, even after Voided is told paranoid/naive cops are impossible, even after all bits of doubt are systematically taken away, he still insists on abstaining from voting pappums. It's like he's afraid to get into a 1 v 1 with him because he knows pappums is going to flip town, and thus he's going to be lynched.

I've said this already: I'm not one to just lay a vote on like that. Besides, that still would've been OMGUS-y, voting him back, so I also wanted to get more than just an OMGUS to vote him.

Then, there's voided's neighbor claim. He is told that his power is impossible several times, and yet doesn't back down or "check his role PM". Then, when Jahudo points out there is another "Neighbor" role that has that power, then he finally comes up with Neighborizer.

Because I thought I read it correctly (multiple times. Yes, I did go back to look at my role PM a couple times, don't try to say otherwise). Once Jahudo pointed out the extra role, I super-double-checked the PM (specifically how my role was spelled), and realized I had neighborizer instead of just Neighbor.

Then, when he finally DOES vote pappums, he has the following reasoning:

Because he thinks I'm scum and wants me gone. If you'll note, until he unvoted all his posts were about me being scum, and nothing else. I'm not counting RVS or anything before Idiotking confirmed to start the game, mind. After he unvotes me, he gets on Fitz and Jahudo for seeming overeagerness and the gambit suggestion, respectively. But other than that, it's been all me. Perhaps a case of tunneling?

Which still assumes pappums as town. After all, scum don't think that anyone is scum because they know the scum already...

It does assume that? Where?

And then, after pappums admits it's a gambit, THEN voided pushes for his lynch. It's like once reassured that pappum's isn't a one-shot cop with a guilty on him, then he's all gungho for the lynch because he knows he's not dead once pappums flips town.

Well, because lying like that was certainly a good reason to lynch.

Nacho, you STILL haven't answered my 4 (now upped to 5) questions. Come on, now. Here, I'll repost 'em for ya:

1. Do you agree with Rat's reasons for finding me scummy? For finding Fitz scummy?
2. Do you think that rat's gambit was scummy at all?
3. Would you still consider me or Fitz scummy now?
4. If 3 is a no to both, who do you consider scummy?
5. Even if 4 is a yes to one to either, is there anyone else you consider scummy?

Well, I guess you don't have to answer #3, but you still need to answer the rest.

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP: No one STILL has come out and said why that was a knee-jerk reaction. (quote 3)

And why is Cecily my buddy again?

[Nachomamma8]

I did? Are you talking pre or post-claim?

Irrelevant.

I've only been here, what, 2-3 months? With only two games completed? You miss that?

Nope. I've also read your two games, and you weren't a VI. You're smart enough to realize that if someone gets a guilty on you and you're town, it means they're lying.

No one has STILL explained why that's not just knee-jerk <_<

It is scum knee-jerk, and that's the problem.

Because I THOUGHT that saying you're a sane cop and not just a cop would be stating your role PM and therefore would be against the rules.

The point is that you believed it even though he claimed a guilty on you.

I've said this already: I'm not one to just lay a vote on like that. Besides, that still would've been OMGUS-y, voting him back, so I also wanted to get more than just an OMGUS to vote him.

So, you didn't vote what should've been confirmed scum because it would be OMGUS-y, and you didn't want to look scummy for voting him? And isn't claiming a guilty on someone you know 100% is town enough of a reason to vote for you?

Because I thought I read it correctly (multiple times. Yes, I did go back to look at my role PM a couple times, don't try to say otherwise). Once Jahudo pointed out the extra role, I super-double-checked the PM (specifically how my role was spelled), and realized I had neighborizer instead of just Neighbor.

I could see you misreading Neighborizer as Neighbor once, sure. But multiple times? Hell no. It's not that hard to read what your role PM says.

It does assume that? Where?

You quoted the explanation as well.

Well, because lying like that was certainly a good reason to lynch.

But him lying about getting a guilty on you wasn't?

1. Do you agree with Rat's reasons for finding me scummy? For finding Fitz scummy?
2. Do you think that rat's gambit was scummy at all?
3. Would you still consider me or Fitz scummy now?
4. If 3 is a no to both, who do you consider scummy?
5. Even if 4 is a yes to one to either, is there anyone else you consider scummy?

1. Already addressed.
2. No. Why would I?
3. Yes, you're scummy, Fitz isn't.
4. You and Ceily are scummy, I don't care about anyone else.
5. Pine is lurky, but no one else really stands out.

[Voidedmafia]

I did? Are you talking pre or post-claim?

Irrelevant.

Why?

I've only been here, what, 2-3 months? With only two games completed? You miss that?

Nope. I've also read your two games, and you weren't a VI. You're smart enough to realize that if someone gets a guilty on you and you're town, it means they're lying.

Okay, so I said the wrong thing. SORRRRRy.

No one has STILL explained why that's not just knee-jerk <_<

It is scum knee-jerk, and that's the problem.

And a townie hasn't made a similar knee-jerk before?

Because I THOUGHT that saying you're a sane cop and not just a cop would be stating your role PM and therefore would be against the rules.

The point is that you believed it even though he claimed a guilty on you.

From my ISO 18:

In light of that, you all might want to lay down your top 3 suspects (I would say top 2, but I'm fairly sure that Rat's gonna fall next if I'm lynched, so that'd make him suspect #1) so far

I don't think that says i believed him, does it?

I've said this already: I'm not one to just lay a vote on like that. Besides, that still would've been OMGUS-y, voting him back, so I also wanted to get more than just an OMGUS to vote him.

So, you didn't vote what should've been confirmed scum because it would be OMGUS-y, and you didn't want to look scummy for voting him? And isn't claiming a guilty on someone you know 100% is town enough of a reason to vote for you?

Yes to the first question.

For the 2nd, perhaps it is, but I didn't think so at the time. *shrugs*

Because I thought I read it correctly (multiple times. Yes, I did go back to look at my role PM a couple times, don't try to say otherwise). Once Jahudo pointed out the extra role, I super-double-checked the PM (specifically how my role was spelled), and realized I had neighborizer instead of just Neighbor.

I could see you misreading Neighborizer as Neighbor once, sure. But multiple times? Hell no. It's not that hard to read what your role PM says.

Of course it isn't. But I wasn't looking specifically for how the name of the role was named, just at what the role did (which was what they were heckling me over, since Neighbors can't choose who they're with).

It does assume that? Where?

You quoted the explanation as well.

I'm asking where I assumed, either explicitly or implicity, that Pappums is town.

Well, because lying like that was certainly a good reason to lynch.

But him lying about getting a guilty on you wasn't?

I didn't think so at the time.

2. No. Why would I?
3. Yes, you're scummy, Fitz isn't.
4. You and Ceily are scummy, I don't care about anyone else.
5. Pine is lurky, but no one else really stands out.

2. A few people (Pine in particular) have repeatedly expressed that such a gambit is not the way to go at this stage, and that it is scummy. Do you agree or disagree with this?
4. Because you want my lynch done with?
5. Idiotking and Neil have both said that they find Fitz to be varying degrees of scummy. Since you believe the opposite, what do you think of their arguments that Fitz is scummy?

[P.T. Barnum]

If there's renewed interest in a voided wagon I'm totally up for that. I particularly like his recent appeal to newbieness- that's a last resort if I've ever heard one. The neighbor-neighborizor bit, as I've said and said, would be enough to lynch him.
Besides, the deadline's been extended.

Unvote
Vote: voided

[Voidedmafia]

If there's renewed interest in a voided wagon I'm totally up for that. I particularly like his recent appeal to newbieness- that's a last resort if I've ever heard one. The neighbor-neighborizor bit, as I've said and said, would be enough to lynch him.
Besides, the deadline's been extended.

Unvote
Vote: voided

I've already explained the mix-up with the roles.

Well, it's not so much an appeal to newbieness, but rather me trying to tell Nacho that I don't yet have the calm head to consider doing such things that he outlined in his case on me. Appeal to inexperience would be a better term.