Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[farside22]

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9485/1147post145.png

I didn't say you were lying either. I thought I hit preview.

I will ask the mod since it's not in the rules not to mod kill me for the infarction and if necessary you can replace me instead.

[Necessary Evil]

@NE and Maxous.

Of course it is weak and speculative. Less than 3 full pages and 24 hours into the game.

NE may be right and Erratus deserves a gold star for basically ending the RVS the first post. At this moment, I don't agree but no way to prove it or even know if it is true. Even speculation as to why he did it relies on what you personally think of the post and what you think of EA's motivation behind it.

But, you have to start somewhere.

You're absolutely correct. That doesn't mean that you're not scum or that I shouldn't find your post suspicious. I still don't see any reason not to take EA's vote seriously other than timing. The tipping point was really your case on Ender on very

very

thin reasoning.

What makes Oso's attempt to move the game forward worse than mine?

Answering this quesiton would be just repeating my case.

How can you put TS in the town column based on like 2 RVS posts?
Was Oso scum or town in the game where he pre-empted questions?

Oso was scum.
As I said before, I get a slight town read on TS because his frustration about voting the mod instead of real RVS seemed like genuine town trying to get the game going.
About voting EA, it was mostly just following you, and nobody else really stood out.
With his new post though, he says "Fair enough" to what's obviously a joke like it's completely serious. And then "What "definition" forces my vote to be a joke or RVS vote?" Seems to deny that he was serious, yet later he says it was attempting to move the game forward. Next he seems pretty eager to vote klazam, for something that a lot of people say(mostly random). It could be scum hopping off their buddy at first opportunity.
Farside: Why single out TS? Javert, Klazam, Saurus and to a lesser extent Juls haven't really said much either.

I can't seem to find who you are responding to. Who's EA read are you sheeping? What is your read on that person and why?

I'm not liking the heat that Javert was receiving for not answering quesitons. That's a playstyle issue, not an alignment issue. Unforunatley, townies will jump all over people for this sort of thing all the time and it's easy for scum to hide among them. So, let's see; farside22 wasn't really voting Javert for not answering questions, so I'm not counting her. Twistedspoon has been active lurking for the most part and he voted Javert, so he might be scum. Prosaurus is very similar: he voted for Javert and he has been active lurking. ender241 voted Javert for not answering questions and Oso makes a compelling case for ender, but I don't think Oso is town and I'm not going to sheep his read whithout a strong town read on him. ender posted this:

You have misinterpreted what i'm saying, i'm saying he's either doing one of three things.

1. He is scum and basically trying to make himself stay alive for ages.

2. He's just a normally townie who's got himself into a sticky situation.

3. He's a DayVig and just a total dick who can't be assed posting and is just being a total dick about the whole game.

Thats what i'm trying to say, i don't want dicks in the game.

This looks like a scummy reaction to Oso's vote. He's trying to scramble away from what he said before:

UNVOTE: VOTE: Javert Start answering questions, i doubt your a DayVig.

Basically your using "Day-vig" as your excuse to say what you want.

Also, ender thinks there are three possibilities regarding Javert and only one of them invovles him being scum, why vote? Between the vote and his posting, his behavior does not suggest the other two possibilities. Then he unvotes and votes me for lurking for a whole day (oh, for shame!). That's rather suspicious.

It's hard to pick between Twistedspoon, Prosaurus, and ender, but ender is just enough ahead that he deserves my vote.
UNVOTE: VOTE: ender241

[Prosaurus]

Oso, what i dislike is the fact that he says he is going to kill today. If you want to DayVig you should wait until we have pretty much confirmed scum.

I'll find out what he is tonight.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Necessary Evil stop lurking, start posting.

So are you a cop or scum?

And is there a reason why I should care about being Day Killed? I don't see one.

[Prosaurus]

Prosaurus is very similar: he voted for Javert and he has been active lurking.

I haven't actually. I have more of a life than being on Mafia 24/7.

[Klazam]

I'm back, will post more soon.

[neil1113]

farside22, this is a warning. You are NOT under ANY circumstance allowed to edit your posts during a game. Mafiascum.net rules state this clearly. I'll give you warning, as I have no desire to replace you. Get back in the game!

Vote Count #1.3:
Day One

ender241

(5): Javert, Oso, farside22, Me=Weird, Necessary Evil

Oso

(3): Rhinox, Juls, Necessary Evil

Javert

(2): Twistedspoon, Prosaurus

Erratus Apathos

(1): Me=Weird

Rhinox

(1): Maxous

Prosaurus

(1): Erratus Apathos

Klazam

(0):

Maxous

(0):

Twistedspoon

(0):

Juls

(0):

Necessary Evil

(0):

Me=Weird

(0):

farside22

(0):

No Lynch

(0):

Not Voting

(2): Klazam, Ender241

V/LA

(3): Andrew till Sunday or more..., Rhinox till Sunday Evening, Juls till Monday.

With

13

alive it takes

7

to lynch.
Deadline for Day One is 12:00am EST on 4/20/2011

[Erratus Apathos]

Well first things first, I feel I should apologize to farside. I totally overreacted in accusing her of cheating, when it should have been obvious that that was an honest mistake rather than a nefarious shenanigan. Farside I'm sorry. Please don't replace out.

I don't like this wagon on Ender. Even though his Javert vote was bad for reasons stated, I definitely feel like he genuinely disbelieved Javert's claim. Case in point:

Just vote him already godamnit! He's trying it on, it's like saying "I'm the bomb, the last person to vote me so i am lynched will die." Which is basically warning us off voting for him so he gets away with doing what he wants and noone can stop him, he can't kill all of us.


Oh, now he answers when he realises there's going to be trouble.

The strong language here ("Just vote him already godamnit!") is excellent evidence that Ender was honest in his suspicion of Javert. Scum rarely ever get this emotional about getting their suspects lynched. Especially since I doubt scum would be antagonizing a claimed dayvig like this. Ender is town.

Similarly, I don't think Prosaurus's claim to not mind being dayvigged is likely a gambit, so I'm leaning town on him too. Not as sure as I am with Ender, but I definitely want to move my vote now.

NE's vote on Ender is definitely bothering me. It feels like he's trying to get Ender lynched on a technicality rather than scummy behaviour.

Also, ender thinks there are three possibilities regarding Javert and only one of them invovles him being scum, why vote? Between the vote and his posting, his behavior does not suggest the other two possibilities.

This is what I mean. Even thought Ender thought Javert was scum, he listed possibilities where Javert was town. NE attacks Ender for doing so, suggesting that A) a townie would not vote for a player with only a one in three chance of being scum, and B) a townie would not push such low odds when he had earlier been suggesting only the possibility that Javert was scum. However, both of those claims fall on their face when you actually look at what happened! Ender obviously did not weight the three possibilities equally. He clearly favored the scum-Javert situation, and felt the town-Javert situations were unlikely. This should be apparent to anyone taking an honest look at Ender, but it didn't occur to NE.

Why didn't it? I suspect it's because NE was looking for a reason to jump on the Ender wagon, rather than because he was looking for evidence of Ender's alignment. As such, that's where I'm moving my vote.

UNVOTE: Prosaurus
VOTE: Necessary Evil

[farside22]

Thanks EA. I asked the mod if anyone thought I was doing it to cheat that he should replace me. I didn't want anyone to think I did it for those reasons.
It's part being a mod too long and part my job where I can edit everything I do that some things just become a natural response. I promise to preview edit my post first.

Back to scum hunting!!!

NE:

You're absolutely correct. That doesn't mean that you're not scum or that I shouldn't find your post suspicious. I still don't see any reason not to take EA's vote seriously other than timing. The tipping point was really your case on Ender on very very thin reasoning.

Have you been reading the same game I have? Many people seem to be going off of thin reasoning for their votes.

EA:

Yeah, I do. How is it role fishing? It's not like there's any normal role that wants to be shot, so I really doubt it's role related.

I see no good reason for the question. I don't see scum saying OK then shoot me. And asking that question could reveal information from the player. (yes I could see 2 normal roles that ask to be shot).

Also this:

Similarly, I don't think Prosaurus's claim to not mind being dayvigged is likely a gambit, so I'm leaning town on him too. Not as sure as I am with Ender, but I definitely want to move my vote now.

was my thinking. Call it seeing newb town player vs scum newb play.
Yeah I'm using the newb card on Pro myself.

I don't like NE's case either. Many people are going on what they can find whether small or minor. Also if he still thinks Oso is scummy why change his vote from Oso to Ender?
@NE: why change your vote? Do you think both are scum together and why?

[Me=Weird]

NE: The part of the post you were talking about was in response to Oso, and it's old stuff. Don't see why you bring it up now, because IIRC, you've post between then and now. I think Oso's town right now.
"Also, ender thinks there are three possibilities regarding Javert and only one of them invovles him being scum, why vote?"
Probabilities are pretty useless in mafia. Sure, two out of 3 situations have him as town, that doesn't mean he's more likely to be town.

[Necessary Evil]

Prosaurus is very similar: he voted for Javert and he has been active lurking.

I haven't actually. I have more of a life than being on Mafia 24/7.

I didn't say you've been lurking. I said you've been

active

lurking, as in posting but not really contributing.

The strong language here ("Just vote him already godamnit!") is excellent evidence that Ender was honest in his suspicion of Javert. Scum rarely ever get this emotional about getting their suspects lynched. Especially since I doubt scum would be antagonizing a claimed dayvig like this. Ender is town.

Not necessarily. Some scum will put more emotion in their posting just to give themselves a stronger town vibe. It's risky to dismiss someone as a suspect for that reason.

NE's vote on Ender is definitely bothering me. It feels like he's trying to get Ender lynched on a technicality rather than scummy behaviour.

Also, ender thinks there are three possibilities regarding Javert and only one of them invovles him being scum, why vote? Between the vote and his posting, his behavior does not suggest the other two possibilities.

This is what I mean. Even thought Ender thought Javert was scum, he listed possibilities where Javert was town. NE attacks Ender for doing so, suggesting that A) a townie would not vote for a player with only a one in three chance of being scum, and B) a townie would not push such low odds when he had earlier been suggesting only the possibility that Javert was scum. However, both of those claims fall on their face when you actually look at what happened! Ender obviously did not weight the three possibilities equally. He clearly favored the scum-Javert situation, and felt the town-Javert situations were unlikely. This should be apparent to anyone taking an honest look at Ender, but it didn't occur to NE.

Why didn't it? I suspect it's because NE was looking for a reason to jump on the Ender wagon, rather than because he was looking for evidence of Ender's alignment. As such, that's where I'm moving my vote.

You're totally misunderstanding my case. I'm not really surprised that you did because my post really wasn't well written. I spent 1.5-2 hours working on it because of all the content that was posted. I didn't really proofread it carefully because I had already put so much time in and I had other things I needed to do.

It's not clear that ender had three possibilities in mind when he voted for Javert. He didn't post anything indicating the other two possibilities until after Oso voted for him. That combined with his vote for me when I'd only been absent for one day says to me that he is scum overreacting to the heat he'd been receiving.

NE:

You're absolutely correct. That doesn't mean that you're not scum or that I shouldn't find your post suspicious. I still don't see any reason not to take EA's vote seriously other than timing. The tipping point was really your case on Ender on very very thin reasoning.

Have you been reading the same game I have? Many people seem to be going off of thin reasoning for their votes.

Well, of course. What's important in those situations are why said reasoning is thin. In that case, Oso was attatching ender to EA based on a joke vote and a bad case on EA.

I don't like NE's case either. Many people are going on what they can find whether small or minor. Also if he still thinks Oso is scummy why change his vote from Oso to Ender?
@NE: why change your vote? Do you think both are scum together and why?

I don't try to tie people together until at least one of them is already dead. Oso is less scummy than Twistedspoon, Prosaurus, and ender right now.

NE: The part of the post you were talking about was in response to Oso, and it's old stuff. Don't see why you bring it up now, because IIRC, you've post between then and now. I think Oso's town right now.

No, I hadn't seen that post before then. I thought it might be him, but I wasn't sure.

"Also, ender thinks there are three possibilities regarding Javert and only one of them invovles him being scum, why vote?"
Probabilities are pretty useless in mafia. Sure, two out of 3 situations have him as town, that doesn't mean he's more likely to be town.

I brought that up because it looked to me like he invented the other two possibilities when he was under pressure. I don't see why he would be campaigning for Javert so hard if he genuinely thought there was a strong possibility that Javert was town. If that possibility is weak, how does that justify his defense?

[Juls]

I am going to put this out there. It's primarily gut on how I have caught myself speaking as scum but I am getting scum vibes from Me=Weird's phrasing. (bold for emphasis) Examples:

With his new post though, he says "Fair enough" to what's obviously a joke like it's completely serious. And then "What "definition" forces my vote to be a joke or RVS vote?"

Seems to deny

that he was serious,

yet later he says

it was attempting to move the game forward. Next he

seems pretty eager to vote klazam

, for something that a lot of people say(mostly random).

It could be scum hopping

off their buddy at first opportunity.

I can definitely see ender scum, I know others have said this, but I'm re-stating it anyway.

Post 91,

says saurus is trying

to get out of situations where he'd be voted, when it was just no reads.
Post 113-114,

doesn't think javert's a day vig

, and is just using it to say whatever he wants. He stated that he's going to kill today, so it's easily confirmable, so scum wouldn't want to claim it.
117 "He can't kill all of us"

sounds a lot more like scum talking to his team

than about town.
125 doesn't really answer the questions.
130,

he want's javert to wait

until we have almost confirmed scum, a prime opportunity to kill him. "I'll find out what he is tonight." Wait, what's this? You're going to kill him?

It's the way he is presenting his cases thats off to me. When he attacks someone he presents it to the town instead of attacking the person outright and asking them questions. Am I completely off my rocker or does anyone else see what I see?

On stuff that has happened since my last post:
Javert - As far as the "do you think everyone who disagrees with you is scum" question goes, I obviously don't think that is true but I was reaction testing you. Obviously the reaction is useless given your claim now. But, for what its worth, nothing really raised alarm bells. All I ask if you use the day-vig ability is to let someone claim before you throw the trigger. After that, your decision is your own (obviously).

Ender - I REALLY really hate ender voting a claimed day-vig. Its completely testable and unlikely to be a scum ability.

farside - Is it anti-town to agree with someone? Because you are really milking this agreement with Rhinox. Have I done nothing that you see is town? I mean really, that was ONE of many things I have said. Unrelated, I do get town-vibes from you.

Erratus/NE take on Ender and his emotion - I would agree with Erratus on this (that scum are less emotional, in general). Unless someone can link me a claim where Ender was emotional as scum I would lean town. Even though it's not the smartest thing to do in wanting to lynch a claimed day-vig.

I'm going to

Vote Me=Weird

right now.

[Javert]

1.)

My knee-jerk reaction was that Prosaurus’ Post 152 was bad rolefishing, but it actually looks completely justified given ender241’s post. I would also like ender241 to explain his statement.

2.)

Not convinced either way on ender241’s “emotion.” Done it as Town, done it as Scum.

3.)

I think it’s safe to say farside22 and Erratus Apathos are not scum together, should this information ever prove useful. Highly doubtful a scum partner would point out an in-thread edit to a post so forcefully – partner would probably PM the Mod quietly and ask for lenience and hope the situation goes by unnoticed.

4.)

@Jav: so why did you claim if you are a day-vig? why not keep it a secret so you could use it a later day when you have more information to make more accurate reads from?

If you want to DayVig you should wait until we have pretty much confirmed scum.

I am not guaranteed to be alive tomorrow. I would rather make sure I can use my ability while I can. Additionally, it is

quite

rare to ever have “pretty much confirmed scum,” and that’s a rather unreasonable expectation to hope to achieve.

Furthermore, claiming

now

means I get to actively enforce posting content.

5.)

Any reason why you don't say anything to Juls who hops on to Rhinox logic?

Uh. Juls explicitly referenced Rhinox when she changed her vote to Oso in Post 248. There is absolutely nothing wrong with following players; mafia is a game of persuasion, after all. This is completely different from ender241’s vote on Prosaurus, which at first glance seemed to be verbatim of Erratus Apathos, but was actually worse.

6.)

Javert, is your day vig 1-shot?

Not going to answer this question.

[Juls]

I didn't unvote, so to be official

Unvote, Vote Me=Weird

[Maxous]

Apologies all, I was away for a bit.

Javert claims a Day-Vig says he is going to use it and Ender votes for him. This ability is easily provable.
What is the reasoning here? Javert cracked under the suspicion of not-answering questions and claimed a Day-vig to clear himself?

Next is scum trying to stay alive(Under virtually no pressure and an easy power to be caught lying about)
2) and 3) He's town but he's being a dick. But not really mafia though.

Votes Neccessary Evil for lurking - Lurking is a common way for mafia to throw suspicion on somebody.
It turns out this was'nt Lurking based on posts but based on the time from the last post - again...scummy. It's not based off content of posts
A couple of posts later he acknowledges lurkers are not always scum. But he voted for somebody because of it.
My top pick

EA's repsonse to Me=Weird was not answering his question and looked like a dodge.


Post 73 Ender defends EA from a question by Prosaurus
Post 156 EA defends Ender with the basis that scum don't get this emotional(they can fake it) or that he would be antagonising over a Day-Vog this much.
On the second point.. Javert seemingly suspects Ender(based off his vote). He claims Day-Vig, he says he is going to shoot. One would assume Ender is currently top of his list. Mafia Ender would be far more worried about Mr. Day Vig than Town Ender right at this moment.

Ender obviously did not weight the three possibilities equally. He clearly favored the scum-Javert situation, and felt the town-Javert situations were unlikely. This should be apparent to anyone taking an honest look at Ender, but it didn't occur to NE.

The implication I got was the he voted because Javert was "being a dick". He made an excuse for him.

EA votes for Prosaurus - okay the reasoning the was plausible.
However Ender voted for the same person with the same reasoning in the next post

These two would be my pick for mafia. Seem like a team. Individually Ender looks more suspicious than EA.
I will hold off voting Ender to avoid putting him at L-1

[Juls]

Maxous, pardon me,but that's a big case of what everyone else has said about ender. Do you have a comment on anyone else in the game? ender is obviously an easy target right now.


And FYI, I will tunnel the crap out of anyone that pushes us to night before Javert has an opportunity to prove his ability.

[Me=Weird]

Juls, all I can say is that I normally say cases like that. Check any of my recent games. But what about it seems scummy to you?

[Maxous]

@Juls: I read through the thread and I picked out the two people that seem the most suspicious. I realise others agree that Ender is suspicious (hence the 5 votes).
I don't have a third suspect at this moment
Unless you're asking for my town reads?

BTW why the heck should Me=Weird be attacking people?

[Maxous]

Oh nevermind, that question was asked above :/

[Oso]

Back from a day with some friends. Skim read and didn't see anything right off the bat that changed since my last. Will do a better read and post something.

One thing that did jump out at me is that I will second is Juls caution not to do anything that will end the day prematurely, and by that I mean before Javert can take a shot. Even putting Ender at L-1 could end the day if he self votes.

[ender241]

Even putting Ender at L-1 could end the day if he self votes.

Why exactly, would i self-vote???

[Javert]

If you want to DayVig you should wait until we have pretty much confirmed scum.

I'll find out what he is tonight.

ender241, I hope you're getting around to explaining this.

[Twistedspoon]

nooo
that's rolefishing
what answer are you expecting? "I'm the cop"?

[ender241]

I'll explain my role when i am required to (eg. if i am L-1).

[Javert]

ender241, you are not

going

to be put at L-1 because then you might self-hammer in the hopes I cannot get off a DayVig today. For the purposes of this Day One, being at L-2 is equivalent to L-1. If you fail to explain your statement, you are definitely subject to an immediate DayVigging. You put the statement out there; now you are being asked to explain it.

[ender241]

Dayvig me then.