Newbie 1086 (GAME OVER)

[rockynpoika]

RVS is certainly not devoid of information and anyone floating the theory it is must be scum.

I assume that this was a joke? If it's not, then let me know and I think it could serve some very interesting discussion.

Unvote because the fact that several votes are now on someone I was attempting to RVS makes me very nervous.

I want to know more about that as well. I though that, by definition, RVS has no information. That as soon as people started making bandwagons and having actual game related reasons for voting, it wasn't the RVS any longer.

@projectmatt
Zombolt had only two votes on him. Mine and yours, yours was placed after mine. Why are you nervous now about having two votes on a person when you weren't when you voted at first?

[projectmatt]

RVS is certainly not devoid of information and anyone floating the theory it is must be scum.

I assume that this was a joke? If it's not, then let me know and I think it could serve some very interesting discussion.

Unvote because the fact that several votes are now on someone I was attempting to RVS makes me very nervous.

@projectmatt
Zombolt had only two votes on him. Mine and yours, yours was placed after mine. Why are you nervous now about having two votes on a person when you weren't when you voted at first?

If you look at the time frames, mine was posted very quickly after yours. I was typing my post out when you had made yours, and then I scrolled up and saw several mentions\votes of Zheng. In other words, I didn't pay attention to the fact that it was only two votes and not three, which is what I thought it was.

With that being said, I prefer asking random questions over RVS in order to get the game going. I find it hard to point out when a reaction to being voted is "scummy". In RVS, the mafia knows that no full bandwagon is going to start and therefore they have nothing to worry about when they are voted. They don't even have to respond. Later in the game, they do, but right now I find it slightly invalid.

[jasonT1981]

I don't get why it made you nervous...

you said mafia know no full bandwagon in RVS is going to start but then said the votes were making you nervous?

Unvote

because the fact that several votes are now on someone I was attempting to RVS makes me very nervous.

the mafia knows that no full bandwagon is going to start and therefore they have nothing to worry about when they are voted. They don't even have to respond. Later in the game, they do, but right now I find it slightly invalid.

makes no sense does it?

that sounds like nervous mafia to me really

unvote
vote:ProjectMatt

So if there never was a real reason that it would take off, then why get nervous about it?

[Mogri]

Bad logic could be a scumtell, but overcaution isn't. Jumping on tiny mistakes, on the other hand, is a little fishy.

IGMEOY

[Runner]

jasonT: That vote probably sounded dead serious, it really wasn't. That scene is where he says "Basically, Run." See why I used it? Seen all the trailers for series 6? (I know this is slightly irrelevant but yeah. Not too often I find a fellow fan.)

projectmatt: If you prefer asking random questions then what's stopping you? Haven't seen much of that from you. And jasonT poses a very good question. Are you suggesting that you're nervous we might be lynching mafia? Or am I just interpreting all this incorrectly?

The point of RVS as I know and have experienced is not to get it over and done with as soon as possible, but make a basis for discussion. We've got a good discussion starting to flow now guys, let's try to maintain it.

PEdit: Mogri: I must disagree. Mafia making tiny mistakes or slips can help the town. Who is that directed at?

[Space Pope]

Ok, I am a fellow SE. As such, you can expect me not to teach you how to play. I will not hold back. I will play as if you are all non noobs.

Now to begin.

First off, I don't like how Zengar voted the mod. A random vote is one thing (as it at least gives us connections later), but voting the mod is worthless. Scum points there.

I also do not like Jason's post 22. Preemptively giving an excuse (3am comment) for not knowing what rocky meant.

Next I do not like matt's 26. Implying that he is town is pretty scummy. ("Scum do not react to bandwagon, I am nervous of a bandwagon"= I am not scum).

vote: projectmatt

[projectmatt]

I don't get why it made you nervous...

you said mafia know no full bandwagon in RVS is going to start but then said the votes were making you nervous?

Unvote

because the fact that several votes are now on someone I was attempting to RVS makes me very nervous.

the mafia knows that no full bandwagon is going to start and therefore they have nothing to worry about when they are voted. They don't even have to respond. Later in the game, they do, but right now I find it slightly invalid.

makes no sense does it?

that sounds like nervous mafia to me really

unvote
vote:ProjectMatt

So if there never was a real reason that it would take off, then why get nervous about it?

Once again, caution. Obviously the majority vote isn't going to spontaneously fall on one person, and I stand by this statement. It's just the fact that I thought three votes were on Zhang that made me very cautious.

Your attempts at scumhunting are pretty odd to me. Now, presuming that I was mafia who just a made a mistake, what would I be "nervous" about, as you say? I'm curious as to what your reasoning is.

Bad logic could be a scumtell, but overcaution isn't. Jumping on tiny mistakes, on the other hand, is a little fishy.

IGMEOY

I disagree, actually. Mafia is very careful and precise as to what they say. I generally find that when someone is dumbtelling, it's a slight towntell.

Ok, I am a fellow SE. As such, you can expect me not to teach you how to play. I will not hold back. I will play as if you are all non noobs.

Now to begin.

First off, I don't like how Zengar voted the mod. A random vote is one thing (as it at least gives us connections later), but voting the mod is worthless. Scum points there.

I also do not like Jason's post 22. Preemptively giving an excuse (3am comment) for not knowing what rocky meant.

Next I do not like matt's 26. Implying that he is town is pretty scummy. ("Scum do not react to bandwagon, I am nervous of a bandwagon"= I am not scum).

vote: projectmatt

No, this is not an OMGUS, but something about this post slightly bothers me. How does voting the moderator give any more scum points then just voting a random player? It's a mod, but it's still a random vote. No different from any other RVS. I'm curious as to why you find it special.

Sorry, but from my point of view, I am town, and my wording will naturally come out in that way. I can't really help that.

[jasonT1981]

I also do not like Jason's post 22. Preemptively giving an excuse (3am comment) for not knowing what rocky meant.

time aside, I actually did not know what had been meant as there was no mention of a random generator that I knew about and was slightly confused as to how he knew one was used... turns out afterwards that Mersenne Twister was a randomizer site. I didn't know that.

[jasonT1981]

Your attempts at scumhunting are pretty odd to me. N

ow, presuming that I was mafia who just a made a mistake, what would I be "nervous" about, as you say?

I'm curious as to what your reasoning is.

Ummmm the fact you made a mistake? lol

[Sisterman]

First off, I don't like how Zengar voted the mod. A random vote is one thing (as it at least gives us connections later), but voting the mod is worthless. Scum points there.

I would like you to explain to me how making a joke about voting a mod is a scumtell. Just, like, diagram your train of thought for me.

[Mogri]

PEdit: Mogri: I must disagree. Mafia making tiny mistakes or slips can help the town. Who is that directed at?

Directed at jason in reference to projectmatt.

Question for jason: I notice you've been registered here something like two years, but you're still signed up for this game as a newbie. What's your background?

[jasonT1981]

I fail to understand what your asking sorry..or even why.

Anyway,

Anyone can play in a newbie game regardless of experience or how long they have been on the site. I am an IC on MS and an IC is inserted into every Newbie game anyway, however the mod, Zachrules replaced into a game of mine not so long ago which is also a newbie game and therefor as a favor to Zach I replaced into this game as a replacement was needed before this game could begin.

OK, I started playing Mafia offsite about 2008 and came here in 2009 and have been playing here since. I usually play theme games as I am a flavor junkie however I will sometimes /in for a newbie.. the last time I did i was an SE however my status has been upgraded to IC.

hope this helps, however I fail to understand your asking.

[Mogri]

I ask because it makes a difference. A noobtell is much more likely to be a scumtell if there's no noob behind it.

[Space Pope]

A mod vote is scummy whereas a random vote is not. The mod is not scum, therefore voting the mod is the same as not voting at all. Not voting does not give town information (early game scum distancing for instance). Voting someone, even if they say it is random, is still forming connections for later.

Post 31- Again saying you are town without trying to prove it. Plus the whole- This isn't OMGUS, but... seems a bit like preemptively trying to defend your post against being called OMGUS = scummy.

JasonT- Whether or not you claim to not know somethign isn't the issue. The issue was preemptively defending yourself. I find people who preemptively defend themselves more likely scum since scum know when they do something scummy and are more likely to try and mitigate the risk by getting out in front of it first.

[Zachrulez]

1st vote count of day 1:

Rockynpoika - 2 (MagnaofIllusion, Sisterman)
projectmatt - 2 (Jasont1981, Space Pope)
Jasont1981 - 1 (runner)
Space Pope - 1 (Mogri)
ZengarZombolt - 1 (Rockynpoika)
Sisterman - 1 (projectmatt)

Not voting: (ZengarZombolt)

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch.

Day 1 will end no later than 2:30PM CST on Saturday April 23rd.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, back from my long weekend –

Well last time I checked RVS standed for Random Vote Stage, so yeah.

I think this has already been handled but the theory behind Random Number Generators being scummy is as follows –

A valid vote, regardless of RVS or not, betrays something about the players make-up. Scum, especially have sometimes been known to RVS their partner as a clumsy distancing tactic. Putting your vote in the hands of a randomizer is somewhat seen as an attempt to avoid laying psychological footprints.

I don’t necessarily agree that it is a strong tell but I have seen it from scum before.

The same logic applies to invalid votes (like Mod votes in a non-bastard game). By specifically not voting for anyone you don’t risk alienating a player with a vote (even an RVS vote) and don’t give away any information unnecessarily.

Since the game is on, I'm gonna wait to see the other people's actions are since you know, lurking is quite scummy.

Please elaborate. You are going to sit back passively and let others make moves?

--

I assume that this was a joke? If it's not, then let me know and I think it could serve some very interesting discussion.

No, it is not a joke. Scum have been and will be caught by RVS votes / posts. RVS is, IMO, just a name we use for the part of the game where things get moving. Scummy play can occur then and to dismiss it just because “its RVS” isn’t good Town play.

With that being said, I prefer asking random questions over RVS in order to get the game going.

1. How are random questions going to cause pressure to scum any more than votes?
2. Why didn’t you being your first post with some Random Questions?

--

Implying that he is town is pretty scummy.

Why? The only person a Town player knows 100% to be Town Day 1 is themselves. It is in the role PM from the Mod. I’d like insight into why inferring you are Town is more likely to come from scum.

--

I ask because it makes a difference. A noobtell is much more likely to be a scumtell if there's no noob behind it.

1. What is a noobtell?
2. Why is scummy play from a player suddenly change based on his join date. I had over 2 years of Non-MS forum Mafia experience before I came here. Why should, in my first game, I have been given the benefit of the doubt for being New when I had copious experience? Why should it ever be assumed that anyone new to MS doesn’t have Mafia experience?

[jasonT1981]

I disagree, actually. Mafia is very careful and precise as to what they say

.

I don't get why it made you nervous...

you said mafia know no full bandwagon in RVS is going to start but then said the votes were making you nervous?

Unvote

because the fact that several votes are now on someone I was attempting to RVS makes me very nervous.

the mafia knows that no full bandwagon is going to start and therefore they have nothing to worry about when they are voted. They don't even have to respond. Later in the game, they do, but right now I find it slightly invalid.

makes no sense does it?

that sounds like nervous mafia to me really

unvote
vote:ProjectMatt

So if there never was a real reason that it would take off, then why get nervous about it?

Once again, caution. Obviously the majority vote isn't going to spontaneously fall on one person, and I stand by this statement. It's just the fact that I thought three votes were on Zhang that made me very cautious.

Your attempts at scumhunting are pretty odd to me. Now, presuming that I was mafia who just a made a mistake, what would I be "nervous" about, as you say? I'm curious as to what your reasoning is.

note the bold...

he says scum are careful and precise in what they say... then says about how he is cautious..

Yea, scumslip!

[Mogri]

I ask because it makes a difference. A noobtell is much more likely to be a scumtell if there's no noob behind it.

1. What is a noobtell?
2. Why is scummy play from a player suddenly change based on his join date. I had over 2 years of Non-MS forum Mafia experience before I came here. Why should, in my first game, I have been given the benefit of the doubt for being New when I had copious experience? Why should it ever be assumed that anyone new to MS doesn’t have Mafia experience?

(Here I am going to invent my own definition)

Noobtell: A mistake that indicates that a player is inexperienced. In Newbie 12, Stimpy counterclaiming doctor when he was actually the cop was, in hindsight, a terrible, terrible noobtell.

You make a good point about offline experience. Perhaps introductions are in order? I have played or modded maybe five RL games of Werewolf plus some games online in Xyl's #mafia. I have also been lurking here for a couple weeks.

[rockynpoika]

@Mogri, @Runner, @Sisterman:
You three still have votes that were originally random. I would like to see actual votes or for you to give your reasons for your vote staying where it is at.

@projectmatt:
Concerning post41, do you have anything to say about the apparent contradiction? I do agree with jason that you seem to be stumbling over your phrasing when discussing town/scum. Also, what do you think about Zombolt and Sisterman? You are voting for sisterman because a lack of posting, any other reason? When you voted for sisterman, spacepope hadn't even appeared yet, why not vote for spacepope instead?
You originally where voting for Zombolt but left after you mistakenly thought there was more than one other vote. Now that you realize that it's just me, would you vote for him again? Why or why not?
Also, you can ask game theory questions for RVS if you want, the IC doesn't have to be the one.

@ZengarZombolt
In post 20, you say you are going to wait to see other actions (lurking) because lurking is scummy. Please clarify.
Also, do you see anything scummy about using a random generator or voting for the moderator?
Also, what do you think about Sisterman and projectmatt, particularly about the case for projectmatt?

@Sisterman
Content. Please add some. The following will give you something to respond to:
What do you think about projectmatt and Zombolt? Post 34, your only nonrvs post, has you defending Zombolt.

I don't think I'm going to be getting anywhere with my vote on Zombolt so I will be voting for projectmatt, could use a bandwagon with some teeth.

Unvote

Vote: projectmatt

[rockynpoika]

My experience with Mafia is real life games (usually turned into a drinking game, though we are competitive enough that some game theory has come up), a couple full length games on another website, tons of "quick" games in IRC and another site, and an interest in mafia game theory.

[Mogri]

I have no reason to stick with my randvote, so

unvote

.

Putting matt at L-2 with little more explanation than "I want to get on a bandwagon," though? That's good enough to get me out of RVS.

Vote: rockynpoika

[rockynpoika]

My reasons for voting matt have been given through the questions I am asking him, particularly because of the way he is discussing the town/mafia dynamic, in short he is the scummiest person to me right now and the person I have the most questions for.

I'm not sure why joining a bandwagon and bringing it to L-2 is scummy in and of itself, though. Generates discussion and pressure.

[jasonT1981]

I have no reason to stick with my randvote, so

unvote

.

Putting matt at L-2 with little more explanation than "I want to get on a bandwagon," though? That's good enough to get me out of RVS.

Vote: rockynpoika

ummm he did actually give reasoning... are you paying attention?

I see nothing wrong with what he said about getting onto the bandwagon, he has legitiment reasons given in that very post... Now if he just came on and said I can get on this wagon and voted with no interaction or comments then yes, it would be scummy.

Also, why the hell where you still in RVS mode? there is plenty of discussion going.

the fact you ignore a lot of it strikes me as odd and just pick one thing and vote is worrying..

there is so much to talk about yet you seem to ignore it to push weak sauce....

[jasonT1981]

I still don't like Rocky's page 1 play as I have outlined... but Matt and now Morgi have shot up my scum list dramatically already

[Mogri]

ummm he did actually give reasoning... are you paying attention?

Here's what he said:

Concerning post41, do you have anything to say about the apparent contradiction? I do agree with jason that you seem to be stumbling over your phrasing when discussing town/scum. Also, what do you think about Zombolt and Sisterman? You are voting for sisterman because a lack of posting, any other reason? When you voted for sisterman, spacepope hadn't even appeared yet, why not vote for spacepope instead?
You originally where voting for Zombolt but left after you mistakenly thought there was more than one other vote. Now that you realize that it's just me, would you vote for him again? Why or why not?

The only actual reasoning in this block is a reference to the "apparent contradiction," which you yourself brought up, and which I don't personally see as a big deal. The fact that you're the one who brought it up indicates that you're hardly neutral in the matter, so it doesn't surprise me that you're jumping down my throat suddenly, especially since I've already indicated you're on my scumdar.

The matter of matt's vote is irrelevant; that was his RVS vote and is not necessarily indicative of his current suspicions. Until my last post, I was voting for Space Pope, whom I have no reason to suspect beyond the default suspicion due to a fellow player.

Also, why the hell where you still in RVS mode? there is plenty of discussion going.

I'm not; are

you

paying attention?