The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

daSpot: Please name your strongest townread and second-strongest scumread.

Final Destination and YFC respectively.

[Unicorn Brethren]

FD? Lulz.

[Unicorn Brethren]

(Equinox)

All right. That's it. Unicorn Brethren is indefensible. I want all of them to swing. I believe them to be scum due to shenanigans, but since it appears I'm the only one who holds that opinion: Practically everyone in this thread agrees they are a serious detriment to the town. We have 6 days to get 5 more votes on Unicorn Brethren. Honestly, if they don't die at some point and town loses because they were allowed to ride a pass for too long, we

deserve

to lose. Please make this happen.

LOL

Cool story bro.

[Unicorn Brethren]

Which Unicorn was this? And what do you believe the single strongest scumtell on us to be?

First question is immaterial.

Answer to the second question is: h/o a sec, I'll go find it.

[Unicorn Brethren]

It's rather easy to see that: Either that's scum looking for ultimate buddying rights with us, along with an "I told you so" when we flip, AND just looking to pad out the post with extra verbiage... or it's town with waaayyyyy too much time on their hands, and not much stock put into to the timeless adage "Succinctness is pro-town". TL;DR: Copper is scum.

Here y'are.

We are not satisfied with your scant rebuttal.

[Greymarble]

DrMyShotty thinks succinctness is defintely pro-town and that Copper's succinct rebuttal was very scummy.

He asks if it's okay that he's part of both of our hydras.

[Final Destination]

Needless to say, I find it more than mildly amusing that I'm the only player who is apparently competent enough to post in his hydra at all times.

[Final Destination]

Needless to say, I find it more than mildly amusing that I'm the only player who is apparently competent enough to post in his hydra at all times.

O RLY?

"Hi my name is Fate and every time AGM chats me on AIM I say "yo" and then evaporate for 3 hours HURR DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR but maybe if I post in fancy italics people will think I'm large n' in charge."

Anyway, lets lynch FES and then we can go be one big happy again.

Unicorn Brethren can GTFO.

[Greymarble]

Needless to say, I find it more than mildly amusing that I'm the only player who is apparently competent enough to post in his hydra at all times.

O RLY

[Final Destination]

Needless to say, I find it more than mildly amusing that I'm the only player who is apparently competent enough to post in his hydra at all times.

O RLY

Did I see you raise your hand? Just because you're obvtown doesn't mean you're allowed to talk smack.

[Final Destination]

The contents of that post, if you remember, were "Fate Tag" and was done on purpose so I could view it from my main account.

Not

"LET ME POST ON EVERY ACCOUNT BUT MY HYDRA FOR THIS GAMLOLOLZOLZOLZ"

[Greymarble]

Hey! Llamarble hasn't posted on his main account!

So my hydra is tied with yours even if we believe this 'Fate tag' conspiracy theory.

[Final Destination]

Unvote

Not lynching without marble input here.

Really? That's scummy? 'Cause that reads like town in a tunnel trying to derail the wagons that aren't theirs to me.

What you're saying here is that townies will lie about how townie someone else is just to get their favorite lynch through. That's a surprising claim, and one I don't believe. What makes you feel this way?

Copper... failure. Town in a tunnel can and will dismiss weak evidence for other wagons to push their favorite wagon. Fate does it all the time, witness his tunnel on FES.

More to the point, you are suggesting that its evidence that he's scummy because he dismissed evidence against his scumbuddy. I.E. you are presuming knowledge

based on a flip you do not have.

If you believe that SVT is independently scummy enough to lynch, and that danaspot is the likely partner, lynch SVT and if he flips town you'll know you have a null tell.

But I am not sure that's really the point at all.

I'll put my vote here for now.

Vote: Copper

Hi. The Unicorns are out for blood.

We will be happy with goring any of the following:

-DaSpotthatkillsu (<deadweight/scum)
-Greymarble (<scum)
-FinalDestination (<kickingscreamingweight)
-Mystery player (<obvscum)

The unicorns are out of brains.11

Copper was fucking excellent posting, <3 whoever the hell makes up that hydra.

BTW, this hydra has a natural flow because all the posts stem from a single source

Unvote

No more fucking unicorn hammers

You're preaching to the choir on lurking being a scumtell. I've made that argument myself. And I just don't see it for Gummybear.

Doing a solid reread now.

MEH

NO

I HAVE QUESTION NOW. QUESTION BE ANSWERED

THEN VOTE. TOMORROWS VOTE MAY BE DECIDED BY QUESTION

So why spot? Honestly, why flip to him? I just don't feel this spot = scum bit. Or this FD = scum, but that's less relevant.

I'll put together a case Copper, but at the moment you are scummy because you are pushing a weak case far harder than it deserves. LAL on daspot when he explained the difference between lurking and what he thought BW was doing? Weaksauce. Too hard for too little - that was an honest read, and you yell LAL?

FES town is MUCH weaker, but spotty is TOWN. And on top of that you are overplaying a weak hand for your case. I dun like it copper.

NOPE TRY AGAIN

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Some semblance of logic and reason has returned to this head. What I was talking about in posts 702 and 703: At first, I thought Unicorn Brethren were messing around with the identities of the heads of that hydra. Now I believe something else may have happened with that hydra, considering there was talk earlier about heads disappearing. However, my thoughts remain the same: I feel they're being dishonest now, and they're using that to ride the pass we as a town gave them on Day 1. Ergo, scum. (I see you trollin', by the way. Bring it, punk.)

But I'm going to go ahead and do this...

Unvote, Vote: Frogito Ergo Sum

L-1

We can sympathize with Balam in that the Unicorns are intolerable. The "that wasn't the hammer?" post in particular suggests

deliberately

playing to an anti-town meta, instead of merely failing to contribute. Were we hoodwinked by a deliberate ploy of "too scummy to be scum?" It's possible. But, nonetheless, I still can't make myself believe in earnest that the day one play came from scum. Now that the Unicorns have a reputation for failure, continuing to fail is a viable strategy, but it seems too risky to OPEN with such a ploy.

tl;dr -- "Are we letting them get away with too much? Mayb-- LOLNOPE." (Apologies to AGar; I ripped this right out of his mouth.)

I'm starting to see why there are complaints about you, Copper. You really didn't need to say all that. First half gives you some way to wiggle onto Unicorn Brethren. Latter half defends Unicorn Brethren. Wonderful.

YosFlavouredCayke

: Who's town?

Final Destination

: You disappeared for 4 days and XX pages. Got anything to add besides some shit about who's posting as what account?

[Yosarian2]

YosFlavouredCayke

: Who's town?

FES is by far the most clearly pro-town person in this game. I can't believe you just ignored everything I said and voted for him anyway.

Lord Fonzi is probably town.

Unicorn Brethren is stlll probably town, although frustrating. Fritzler trying to hammer whenever given the chance (if that was him) is null for him.

I guess I'm going to have to say greymarble is likely town, although I hate his play today.

Copper is null-ish. Much of his posting is good, but I dislike the way he tried to force FES off of his FD vote on the grounds that "FD won't be lynched today". Not because Copper thought FD was scum, not because it wasn't a logical vote; just because Copper didn;t think FD was going to be lynched. Considering how early in the day this way, and how much stuff can happen, I dislike this justification; there's nothing wrong with sticking with your #1 suspect for a while early in the day, and there's really no way of predicting that early in the day that someone absolutly won't be lynched. The way FES stood up to this pressure, kept his vote where he thought it was best, and let Copper put him at lynch -2 rather then give into the pressure and join the Beaver wagon, join the votes on me, or join some other wagon, is behavior that I basically consider 100% proof of pro-town motive on the part of FES.

I'm going to have to say I'm null on you right now. The biggest thing in your favor right now is that I don't think you're likely to be scum with Beaver, i don't think you're likely to be scum with Spot, and I don't think you're likely to be scum with Gummy; as it is, while I'm not a fan of a lot of your posts, I have trouble coming up with a plasuable scumgroup that could include you in it.

I'm going to be generous and call FD null for now. He was incredibly scummy, then he briefly made some posts that seemed kind of town-ish, now he's at best a quasi-lurker. (not actually a lurker, but when he posts, it has next to no content).

Like i said, currently leaning scum on gummybear. they seemed kind of null-townish day 1, but their posting today has been aweful.

Spot and Beaver are still my two top lynch choices.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Damn this hydra stuff.

YosFlavouredCayke

: Who's town?

FES is by far the most clearly pro-town person in this game. I can't believe you just ignored everything I said and voted for him anyway.

Lord Fonzi is probably town.

Unicorn Brethren is stlll probably town, although frustrating. Fritzler trying to hammer whenever given the chance (if that was him) is null for him.

I guess I'm going to have to say greymarble is likely town, although I hate his play today.

Copper is null-ish. Much of his posting is good, but I dislike the way he tried to force FES off of his FD vote on the grounds that "FD won't be lynched today". Not because Copper thought FD was scum, not because it wasn't a logical vote; just because Copper didn;t think FD was going to be lynched. Considering how early in the day this way, and how much stuff can happen, I dislike this justification; there's nothing wrong with sticking with your #1 suspect for a while early in the day, and there's really no way of predicting that early in the day that someone absolutly won't be lynched. The way FES stood up to this pressure, kept his vote where he thought it was best, and let Copper put him at lynch -2 rather then give into the pressure and join the Beaver wagon, join the votes on me, or join some other wagon, is behavior that I basically consider 100% proof of pro-town motive on the part of FES.

I'm going to have to say I'm null on you right now. The biggest thing in your favor right now is that I don't think you're likely to be scum with Beaver, i don't think you're likely to be scum with Spot, and I don't think you're likely to be scum with Gummy; as it is, while I'm not a fan of a lot of your posts, I have trouble coming up with a plasuable scumgroup that could include you in it.

I'm going to be generous and call FD null for now. He was incredibly scummy, then he briefly made some posts that seemed kind of town-ish, now he's at best a quasi-lurker. (not actually a lurker, but when he posts, it has next to no content).

Like i said, currently leaning scum on gummybear. they seemed kind of null-townish day 1, but their posting today has been aweful.

Spot and Beaver are still my two top lynch choices.

[Unicorn Brethren]

Unvote.

Having second thoughts, fffff

[Final Destination]

Final Destination

: You disappeared for 4 days and XX pages. Got anything to add besides some shit about who's posting as what account?

NO. WE"RE NOT FUCKIN IN THE MOOD.

THIS GAME HAS TURNED INTO A LURKINGDERPFEST. GUMMY AND SINGERBEAR SING AND DANCE IN OTHER THREADS AND SCUMCHAT ALL FUCKIN DAY LONG AND THEY CAN"T BE ARSED TO POST A SINGLE CONTENT CATCHUP POST HERE.

IF THERE IS NOT SCUM BETWEEN THEM AND FES THERE WILL BE NO END TO OUR RAGE.

YOSCAYKES LATEST HARDCORE DEFENSE OF FES GIVES US SECOND THOUGHTS AS WELL, AS IF HE KNOWS FES' TOWNFLIP WILL CONDEMN HIM VIA POE (BECAUSE YOS IS DEFSCUM IF FES IS SOMEHOW SPACETOWN)

SO YEAH, WE HAVE THE CHOICE OF STALLING THE GAME TO FUCK AND BACK AND GOING OFF ON SOME OTHER TANGENT, OR STICKIN TO OUR GUNS, OR LYNCHING LURKBAGS.

WE"RE STICKIN TO FES

AND HE NEEDS TO BE LOCKED INT A CLAIM/HAMMERED.

LIKE WEVE BEEN SAYING FOR WHAT FEELS LIKE WEEKS.

GOD

DAMN

IT.

[RAGE AND AGM APPROVED]

[Lord Fonzi]

We never said you did, in fact we said the opposite, but do you know how often scum distance their partners by putting them in a 'top suspects' list but saying that someone else is more of a priority?

Except you've essentially done the same thing now with

you

thinking FES is scummy enough to vote and your other head just so happens to not allow you to continue to vote for them. "It's scummy when they do it but not when we do it, waaah." Please.

Regardless of both of you thinking that we're scummy. Your entire case on us was lurking up until you decided that catching up in a game and agreeing/disagreeing with people's reads was sheeping. At this point one of the top two wagons SHOULD be lynched today, and you're effectively preventing that from happening by focusing on a null tell.

I suppose I should be the one to address this, huh. I call some massive bullshit. How long can you continue to claim the same thing as a defense, and yet never actually put forward any content? You can keep calling till the end of the week for more evidence against you, but that depends entirely upon you giving something more. Evidently though you're more content with maintaining for what feels like the second week running that the two of you can't manage to read this goddamn thread. I mean, you seem to be enough aware of the thread to post defense of yourself but that's about it.

Besides this, I'm not sure why you're insisting that the only options for lynch are the two main wagons. I mean false dichotomy ought to cover it, but it's just bad logic. If you're so sure that FES is going to be lynched why are you worried about us? What you're really after is trying to discredit us because we're the ones after you. Again the whole time to defend but no time to build anything constructive.

Who is playing UnicornBrethren right now? Is that whole consistency thing happening?

Please rip the caps lock key off your keyboard, Fate.

[Copper]

Needless to say, I find it more than mildly amusing that I'm the only player who is apparently competent enough to post in his hydra at all times.

Ahem.

I'm starting to see why there are complaints about you, Copper. You really didn't need to say all that. First half gives you some way to wiggle onto Unicorn Brethren. Latter half defends Unicorn Brethren. Wonderful.

I don't think we could've been more clear about our disinterest in voting UB now or in the foreseeable future. Still, the necessity to relate to other players who don't come to the same conclusions as we do (e.g. you) is important in getting our point across. We want to make it clear that we wouldn't blame anyone for reading UB as someone who isn't worth our time, but we insist that that irritation cannot crossover into an actual vote.

This position has not changed, nor would it in such a sinister way as you are implying.

I dislike this justification; there's nothing wrong with sticking with your #1 suspect for a while early in the day, and there's really no way of predicting that early in the day that someone absolutly won't be lynched. The way FES stood up to this pressure, kept his vote where he thought it was best, and let Copper put him at lynch -2 rather then give into the pressure and join the Beaver wagon, join the votes on me, or join some other wagon, is behavior that I basically consider 100% proof of pro-town motive on the part of FES.

This may be a purely political disagreement, but forcing players to give meaningful votes and positions may be the crux of any good townie's strategy. The FD vote was as predictable as it was useless. We contend that you're not going to be able to successfully read a player that only reacts negatively to pressure against themselves. Everything else they say becomes marginalized. Forcing a player to the forefront, however, can rectify this.

[Unicorn Brethren]

*Pre-emptive mod-prod.*

[YosFlavouredCayke]

This may be a purely political disagreement, but forcing players to give meaningful votes and positions may be the crux of any good townie's strategy. The FD vote was as predictable as it was useless.

That dosn't make any sense to me. FD got a lot of votes on day 1; the idea that you can just declare a vote on FD "useless" seems bizzare to me. In any case, a vote on someone you think is scum is never "useless".

If you're convinced person X is scum, and no one else agrees, just giving up and ignoring person X is a pretty bad idea, IMHO. It might be necessary to eventually compromise to get a more likely wagon, but even if you're all by yourself, if you're convinced person X is scum, you should make that absolutely clear, and keep pressure on them whatever way you can; even if it seems unlikely not going to get a lynch on that person today, you should keep making the case and attacking them, and try to build towards a future consensus on them.

There are times it's good to vote on a compromise wagon, or vote for pressure, or vote to make a point, or for other reasons; but most of the time, your vote should be on the person who's your number #1 suspect. I wouldn't have minded if you attacked FES because you thought FD was town, or because his case was bad, or whatever, but you never said that, and the "None of the rest of the town agrees with you so you should just shut up and sheep on the rest of us or I'm going to put you at lynch -2" thing just seemed bizarre.

[Copper]

This may be a purely political disagreement, but forcing players to give meaningful votes and positions may be the crux of any good townie's strategy. The FD vote was as predictable as it was useless.

That dosn't make any sense to me. FD got a lot of votes on day 1; the idea that you can just declare a vote on FD "useless" seems bizzare to me. In any case, a vote on someone you think is scum is never "useless".

If you're convinced person X is scum, and no one else agrees, just giving up and ignoring person X is a pretty bad idea, IMHO. It might be necessary to eventually compromise to get a more likely wagon, but even if you're all by yourself, if you're convinced person X is scum, you should make that absolutely clear, and keep pressure on them whatever way you can; even if it seems unlikely not going to get a lynch on that person today, you should keep making the case and attacking them, and try to build towards a future consensus on them.

There are times it's good to vote on a compromise wagon, or vote for pressure, or vote to make a point, or for other reasons; but most of the time, your vote should be on the person who's your number #1 suspect. I wouldn't have minded if you attacked FES because you thought FD was town, or because his case was bad, or whatever, but you never said that, and the "None of the rest of the town agrees with you so you should just shut up and sheep on the rest of us or I'm going to put you at lynch -2" thing just seemed bizarre.

You're forgetting that there were two townie responses:

There were two correct answers to our "game". You could either start putting your vote in play, accepting that FinalDestination will not be lynched today, or you could start a giant, renewed push if you had strong evidence and you truly believed we were all wrong. You chose neither. You admit that you chose neither. This is why we're voting you. You're shrugging your shoulders and saying, "We have two different ideas for how to play the game so we've decided not to play it at all. Also, you're scum for voting us."

As an analogy, lets look at voting. FES is analogous to a Green Party voter. We're telling him that the Green Party candidate has no chance of winning. There are two answers to this conflict. He can either vote Democrat (which is closer to his beliefs than Republican, if not his top choice). OR, he can spearhead a campaign designed to make the Green Party a viable choice. But when he does neither, and casts his vote knowing no one agrees with him, then there is some serious doubt as to whether he really cares who is elected president.

---

daSpot: A hypothetical. Suppose FES flips town. How does that affect your read of YFC?

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

The problem with your analogy is that there wasn't a Democrat option. In terms of theory, I definitely agree with Copper. The actual argument just relies on an assumption (the existence of Democrats) that while usually valid wasn't valid here. Honestly, Copper, your stance on this issue has been a little naive - I don't suddenly stop thinking about stuff like this when I'm scum.

I see Fate hasn't gotten the memo that there's more than one scum in a game.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

daSpot: A hypothetical. Suppose FES flips town. How does that affect your read of YFC?

Don't know about my other head, but as far as I'm concerned, he's still scum. I don't see Yos-town trying to throw such BS at us and hope it sticks while simultaneously making blind, crappy defenses of FES.