Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[Erratus Apathos]

Of course scum can feign emotion, but does Ender's emotion look even the slightest bit feigned? To me it's very obviously legitimate, it fits like a glove with his anti-Javert play and makes sense given that he was saying this to Oso who at the time was also upset with Javert's play. I don't see any evidence that his emotion is fake, nor any scum motive for him to have this emotion. Thus, he is town.

I don't have any specific reason to think that his emotion is feigned. I think it's risky to label him as town based on that. I need something more solid.

Well for me it's incredibly solid. I don't really know what else to tell you.

Why does it matter that Ender didn't post the other possibilities? He clearly favored the Javert-scum theory, so kinda obviously his posting is gonna be biased towards mentioning that theory.

It looks to me like he thought he was in trouble and made those other two possibilities up after the fact as a defense.

What? How would making up those possibilities constitute a defense? What attack does that post defend him from? To me it just looks like he's considering all the possibilities.

Look at 138: "Start answering questions, i doubt your a DayVig." Ender used the D word. No not dayvig, the other one. Doubt. He

doubts

Javert is a dayvig. Not he's completely certain Javert isn't one. There's really no inconsistency here.

Where are you getting "I'd only been absent for one day" from? There's more than 48 hours between your iso 1 and 2.

Oh, come on, EA! Do you really want to nit pick over something like this? I posted on Friday, wasn't even on the site on Saturday, and posted again on Sunday, so to me at the time, it was one day. What difference does it make that it was technically two days? That's still suspiciously premature to vote for lurking. We clearly didn't have a lurking problem at the time. He even said that he just picked me because I was the lowest on the activity overview. That's not scumhunting. He used a technicallity that doesn't even remotely prove the case he was making in order to excuse his vote.

Well I was just looking at timestamps, I didn't realize how it had looked from your POV, so fair enough there.

I very strongly disagree that Ender's lurker hunting was not scumhunting. You're right in that the activity overview isn't really sufficient to determine who's a lurker and who's not, but it's a recent addition that hasn't been fully explored, and I can see where someone would make the mistake of assuming you can find lurkerscum just using it. I really think that's what Ender did here.

That being said, I feel better about you based on your response here, so

UNVOTE: Necessary Evil
VOTE: Twistedspoon

as TS seems likes he's trying to stay in the back seat while everyone else fights. I considered voting Klazam too, but there's a better way of dealing with him: Hey Javert, you said you'd vig someone for 4 days without content?

Well Klazam has gone the entire game without content

, so you know what to do.

[ender241]

Alright my role is.... One-shot cop.

[Twistedspoon]

so you have one investigation eh? do you use it at night or day?

i can see a theme in this game, that everything is one-shot :/

[ender241]

Sadly, i can only use it at night. Because i am going for Javert investigation, would it be safe to say that i would only be killed if Javert was scum? Or would the scum just kill me anyway to make Javert look suspicious.?

[Prosaurus]

Sadly, i can only use it at night. Because i am going for Javert investigation, would it be safe to say that i would only be killed if Javert was scum? Or would the scum just kill me anyway to make Javert look suspicious.?

Here's a tip: Don't. First of all, him using his kill today would be enough proof. Secondly, He'll probably be night killed because of his claim.
I see no reason to investigate him unless his day kill is not used as promised.

[Prosaurus]

Oh, and you might be NKed if not lynched as well.

[Maxous]

Warning: Lots of quotes and such..

EA's repsonse to Me=Weird was not answering his question and looked like a dodge.

Whaaaaaaaaaaat? I didn't dodge shit from MW. Explanation etc, etc.

Okay I went back and read it and I misunderstood the initial question from Me=Weird. You did indeed answer the question.

As for scum being more worried about a dayvig claim, that's exactly my point! Why would scum see a player claim dayvig, and decide that it would be a fantastic idea to get into a gigantic fight with that player? Ender is clearly not worried about that! Hence, towntell.

He looked like he panicked to me, calling for everyone to just vote him already

Why would ender make an excuse for Javert?

Sorry, I was referring to EA making an excuse for Ender

For the record, I think Javert should shoot whoever he wants. I don't think shooting whoever gets the most votes is the correct way to play a vig.

Why is that not the correct way to do it?

I…what? This is mafia. The whole game is attacking people. Why did you write this?

Juls suspected you because you were adressing the town with your points rather than attacking players themselves.
I was asking why somebody should have to attack the player over a point. It's not the player you have to convince that he is guilty.

Maxous: You seemed like you had a theory on another player then dropped it and had a case on ender (that was already discussed) and EA. What is with the hmmm on TS then dropping it?

Yeah I thought with the "it's good to see Rhinox and Juls scumhunting" comment, he was trying to come across as pro-town too much. Then he did'nt give a read on anybody(they were all null-tells).
TS still has'nt really(his vote on Javert was because he was being anti-town), and had that 'don't claim PR's it's bad for the town etc.'
I'm starting to think that is just the way he is though.

Look at 138: "Start answering questions, i doubt your a DayVig." Ender used the D word. No not dayvig, the other one. Doubt. He

doubts

Javert is a dayvig. Not he's completely certain Javert isn't one. There's really no inconsistency here.

Twice, Ender said that he was certain that Javert was bluffing.

I very strongly disagree that Ender's lurker hunting was not scumhunting. You're right in that the activity overview isn't really sufficient to determine who's a lurker and who's not, but it's a recent addition that hasn't been fully explored, and I can see where someone would make the mistake of assuming you can find lurkerscum just using it. I really think that's what Ender did here.

Here
And I don't remember Ender following up on any of these 'lurkers'.

I considered voting Klazam too, but there's a better way of dealing with him: Hey Javert, you said you'd vig someone for 4 days without content?

Well Klazam has gone the entire game without content

, so you know what to do.

Calling for Klazam to be day-vigged because he is busy? Not because Klazam is scummy?
Now I'm more confident about my read on EA.
Really comes across as a mafia comment.

[Juls]

as TS seems likes he's trying to stay in the back seat while everyone else fights. I considered voting Klazam too, but there's a better way of dealing with him: Hey Javert, you said you'd vig someone for 4 days without content? Well Klazam has gone the entire game without content, so you know what to do.

No. I would agree if he were active lurking but he is not existing at all. There is no reason to vig him unless he has a replacement that gives us a reason to think he is scummy.

[farside22]

as TS seems likes he's trying to stay in the back seat while everyone else fights. I considered voting Klazam too, but there's a better way of dealing with him: Hey Javert, you said you'd vig someone for 4 days without content? Well Klazam has gone the entire game without content, so you know what to do.

No. I would agree if he were active lurking but he is not existing at all. There is no reason to vig him unless he has a replacement that gives us a reason to think he is scummy.

I just looked at Klazam and he is posting elsewhere around MS for the past few days. He also said he was bad with day 1. I don't know if there is any truth to this and is worth looking into.
I will have more thoughts tonight when I get home.

[Oso]

..
i can see a theme in this game, that everything is one-shot :/

Where did you get that idea from? I checked back back and unless I missed something Javert specifically declined to say if his role was normal or one shot.

Alright my role is.... One-shot cop.

I would say I don't know what to think of that except I do. I think it smells. If scum, he only has to sell one innocent that can easily be killed later. He doesn't get caught in the confirming more townies than scum can kill loop.

Have a considerable amount of work to do today but I'm not going to remove my vote yet. Seriously considering suspending my personal policy of leaving claimed PRs alone Day 1 in this case.

Pending a re-read to make sure I haven't gotten the wrong impression, my thoughts right now are that Ender has been playing in a way that would tend to point that he has placed a higher priority on his own survival that would be normal for just plain town. Points to scum or, oddly enough, town protecting a power role.

But the way he has been playing: Vote hopping. Very little reasoning or thinking at all, behind his votes. He's mainly been reacting rather than acting.....

If I can fit his play into his role, then I will unvote but that is going to take a re-read that I'll do during the day or after work.

[Twistedspoon]

I just looked at Klazam and he is posting elsewhere around MS for the past few days. He also said he was bad with day 1. I don't know if there is any truth to this and is worth looking into.

why not? Or would you rather I did it?

unless I missed something Javert specifically declined to say if his role was normal or one shot.

really? I'm sure he said it was one shot
or maybe I just thought that since a claimed vig will probably only get 1 shot :s

question: in theory might it be possible to have a daykill scum?

[Rhinox]

Why do you think it would be a gambit? What would the point be?
If you want to find out why we're voting ender maybe you should read our posts?

A scum gambit or town gambit? Why would we do that would little pressure on him at all? I didn't assume gambit but I rarely, if ever, gambit myself.

Its becoming more common on site for players to make a claim on d1 with the justification to gauge reactions or spur discussion. I don't consider it an alignment tell. Maybe I'm wrong, but precisely because there was little pressure on Javert, makes me think gambit. I'd prefer not to go into more than this right now until we know for sure whether it is a gambit or whether there really is a day kill.

question: in theory might it be possible to have a daykill scum?

I've seen it in a theme game before.

If you want to find out why we're voting ender maybe you should read our posts?

If you want me to understand why you're voting ender, maybe you should learn to type clearly and concisely. (see, I can do snark too)

I've read some reasons. Everyone seems to have different reasons. Ender seems to be the "easy target", but not necessarily scum.

@Ender, why were you so anxious to claim your role?

@Prosaurus: Why did you ask ender to claim in post 197?

@Twisted: Why are you always so interested in asking/speculating about other's roles?

First example:

I don't mind being Day Killed,

why might this be?

What answer were you expecting? I can't help but draw a parallel to this question by you and the accusation you made against Javert in this post

Actually, paying more attention to your iso, every post you've made from iso 11 to your current post iso 17, each and every one of those posts, the main topic of your post is speculating about someone's role.

-----------------------

Sadly, i can only use it at night. Because i am going for Javert investigation, would it be safe to say that i would only be killed if Javert was scum? Or would the scum just kill me anyway to make Javert look suspicious.?

Here's a tip: Don't. First of all, him using his kill today would be enough proof. Secondly, He'll probably be night killed because of his claim.
I see no reason to investigate him unless his day kill is not used as promised.

These 2 posts make me sad for mafiascum.

----------------------

I would say I don't know what to think of that except I do. I think it smells. If scum, he only has to sell one innocent that can easily be killed later. He doesn't get caught in the confirming more townies than scum can kill loop.

No offense to ender but I seriously doubt he's capable of thinking that far ahead as town or scum.

[ender241]

@Ender, why were you so anxious to claim your role?




-----------------------

Sadly, i can only use it at night. Because i am going for Javert investigation, would it be safe to say that i would only be killed if Javert was scum? Or would the scum just kill me anyway to make Javert look suspicious.?

Here's a tip: Don't. First of all, him using his kill today would be enough proof. Secondly, He'll probably be night killed because of his claim.
I see no reason to investigate him unless his day kill is not used as promised.

These 2 posts make me sad for mafiascum.

1) I did it because i thought people might want me to as i accidently claimed earlier and i thought it would be easier than people having speculations.

2) I knew the answer to that, but i thought it may have been able to draw out scum.

[Oso]

..
No offense to ender but I seriously doubt he's capable of thinking that far ahead as town or scum.

I haven't played with him before so have no way to judge that but it does add another thinking point.

UNVOTE: ender

From re-reading some, I can't tell if he's scum caught or a townie who is doing a bad, pre-claim, job of staying unlynched while looking scummy enough to avoid drawing an NK so he can use his role.

It's D1 so same thinking applies, at least in my mind, as to Javert's claim in some respects. Give him(ender) a night to show us something.

Back to square 1 though

[Rhinox]

@Ender, why were you so anxious to claim your role?




-----------------------

Sadly, i can only use it at night. Because i am going for Javert investigation, would it be safe to say that i would only be killed if Javert was scum? Or would the scum just kill me anyway to make Javert look suspicious.?

Here's a tip: Don't. First of all, him using his kill today would be enough proof. Secondly, He'll probably be night killed because of his claim.
I see no reason to investigate him unless his day kill is not used as promised.

These 2 posts make me sad for mafiascum.

1) I did it because i thought people might want me to as i accidently claimed earlier and i thought it would be easier than people having speculations.

2) I knew the answer to that, but i thought it may have been able to draw out scum.

1) I accept that you think you were doing the right thing by claiming. But, IMO, better to leave the scum guessing. Nobody was demanding your claim. A few were refuting your case. We didn't needed to know your role yet. There are scum hiding in those who are speculating.
2) If you think a player is scum, the answer is to get them lynched. Not investigate them. That is all.

[neil1113]

Klazam has until tonight to post before I start looking for a replacement.

Vote Count #1.4:
Day One

ender241

(4): Javert, farside22, Me=Weird, Necessary Evil

Oso

(2): Rhinox, Necessary Evil

Javert

(2): Twistedspoon, Prosaurus

Erratus Apathos

(1): Me=Weird

Rhinox

(1): Maxous

Twistedspoon

(1): Erratus Apathos

Me=Weird

(1): Juls

Prosaurus

(0):

Klazam

(0):

Maxous

(0):

Juls

(0):

Necessary Evil

(0):

farside22

(0):

No Lynch

(0):

Not Voting

(3): Klazam, Ender241, Oso

V/LA

(0):

Prodding:

(1): Klazam

With

13

alive it takes

7

to lynch.
Deadline for Day One is 12:00am EST on 4/20/2011

[Me=Weird]

Because when he did it, he pretty much said he'd shoot whoever it was that put him at L-1 (Or hammered him if he can shoot in twilight.) So people wouldn't vote to avoid being Day Killed.

But, as someone else said, he was in no danger of being lynched. There is no way he claimed to save his skin.

Hey Javert, you said you'd vig someone for 4 days without content? Well Klazam has gone the entire game without content, so you know what to do.

Actually, he said anyone who didn't post content for 4 days is

in the running.

Didn't I mention earlier that going after lurkers is a good way to look useful without doing anything?
I'm inclined to believe ender's claim. The "I'll find out tonight" fit's in perfectly with cop planning to investigate Javert.

Juls suspected you because you were adressing the town with your points rather than attacking players themselves.
I was asking why somebody should have to attack the player over a point. It's not the player you have to convince that he is guilty.

The way you said it seemed like you were asking why I would attack someone, like why would I find someone suspicious.

really? I'm sure he said it was one shot

I distinctly remember him saying he wouldn't answer.
As for mafia dayvig, I believe there's a mafia assassin, which kills during the day, but it's rarely used.

Seeing as how I believe ender, I'm going to move to NE. Here's why:
First, he says he thinks the votes on ender are "ridiculous", but later on(when there's a wagon) he votes ender for including possibilities of javert being town, which as I have said multiple times, even though there are more possibilities of him being town, doesn't mean he is. The one where he's scum could still be more probable.

It's not clear that ender had three possibilities in mind when he voted for Javert. He didn't post anything indicating the other two possibilities until after Oso voted for him. That combined with his vote for me when I'd only been absent for one day says to me that he is scum overreacting to the heat he'd been receiving.

He ignored the other possibilities before because he didn't see them likely. That's a very weak point.
Plus, I'm just getting a general scummy vibe from his posts.

Unvote, Vote: Necessary Evil

[Twistedspoon]

indeed, NE has gone under the radar for too long

I'm fine with this wagon. My vote on Javert is utterly redundant anyways now that his wagon is gone and he's claimed :/

VOTE: NE

[ender241]

2) If you think a player is scum, the answer is to get them lynched. Not investigate them. That is all.

No, you don't understand the point. If, for example i asked the question and someone responded: "If you were killed it would definitely make Javert look like scum" (assuming Javert is town) they would kill me and give the idea of Javert scum off. So if the person responded did that it would be "drawing out dumb-scum"

[Rhinox]

I understand now, ender.

unvote, vote Twistedspoon

[Maxous]

@:Rhinox: Why is Ender an "easy target"?
And who are the scum that are speculating on his role?(in your opinion)

@Twistedspoon: Why do you think Necessary Evil is scum?

[Necessary Evil]

Good game so far. Keep it up!

I brought that up because it looked to me like he invented the other two possibilities when he was under pressure. I don't see why he would be campaigning for Javert so hard if he genuinely thought there was a strong possibility that Javert was town. If that possibility is weak, how does that justify his defense?

But even though he didn't think Javert was town, there were still two possibilities for him being town. Not thinking them likely doesn't mean they don't exist.

Thank you for proving my point for me. ender didn't think Javert was town when he voted for him (clearly) and made up the two town possibilities to cover his ass.

I don't try to tie people together until at least one of them is already dead. Oso is less scummy than Twistedspoon, Prosaurus, and ender right now.

But you still think Oso is scummy right? That is what I read.
Why is what ender did scummier then Oso to switch your vote to ender?

At the time of that post I did, but Oso is looking more town by the post. ender jumped on Javert in a situation that is easy for scum to do so, then he tried to back off from it in a rather transparent fashion.

Why does it matter that Ender didn't post the other possibilities? He clearly favored the Javert-scum theory, so kinda obviously his posting is gonna be biased towards mentioning that theory.

It looks to me like he thought he was in trouble and made those other two possibilities up after the fact as a defense.

What? How would making up those possibilities constitute a defense? What attack does that post defend him from? To me it just looks like he's considering all the possibilities.

The post containing the new possibilities was posted in reply to Oso's case and vote. That's what he was defending.

Look at 138: "Start answering questions, i doubt your a DayVig." Ender used the D word. No not dayvig, the other one. Doubt. He

doubts

Javert is a dayvig. Not he's completely certain Javert isn't one. There's really no inconsistency here.

Okay, but it's never clear that ender was thinking that Javert was town at that time.

I very strongly disagree that Ender's lurker hunting was not scumhunting. You're right in that the activity overview isn't really sufficient to determine who's a lurker and who's not, but it's a recent addition that hasn't been fully explored, and I can see where someone would make the mistake of assuming you can find lurkerscum just using it. I really think that's what Ender did here.

It fits in with the whole suspicious pattern of behaviour he was in after Oso voted for him. He had to vote for somebody besides Javert and he couldn't fake a good case so he went after a pseudo-lurker.

I would say I don't know what to think of that except I do. I think it smells. If scum, he only has to sell one innocent that can easily be killed later. He doesn't get caught in the confirming more townies than scum can kill loop.

I was thinking we should give him one night and decide what to do with him later, but this is a good point. I'd like to hear more discussion on this.

First, he says he thinks the votes on ender are "ridiculous", but later on(when there's a wagon) he votes ender for including possibilities of javert being town, which as I have said multiple times, even though there are more possibilities of him being town, doesn't mean he is. The one where he's scum could still be more probable.

For the first point, my point was that Oso's case on ender was too thin and too dependant on EA being scum when the EA case was bad. That's a far cry from "he says he thinks the votes on ender are 'ridiculous'". The second point indicates that you're not understanding my case.

indeed, NE has gone under the radar for too long

I'm fine with this wagon. My vote on Javert is utterly redundant anyways now that his wagon is gone and he's claimed :/

VOTE: NE

Twistedspoon is still active lurking for the most part and he's now sheeping Me=Weird's terrible vote on bad reasoning. I'm not "under the radar" just because I don't post as much as some people.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Twistedspoon

[Klazam]

(Posting in all my games)

Sorry for the inactivity.

I'll post tonight, in order of deadlines.

[farside22]

why not? Or would you rather I did it?

Bad grammar and interruptions galore FTW.
I meant to say I don't know if there is any truth to this and it is worth looking into.
I just need to find time.

I know I said I would get to this tonight but I slept like crap last night (little one crawled into bed and kept us up for a couple of hours) and I need to really look into a few players in depth.
This game has my first priority come tomorrow.

*Note:
This promise excludes Mod List duties and modding and is good for mafia games only.
This promise is for a limited time of 48 hours only

.

[Prosaurus]

@Prosaurus: Why did you ask ender to claim in post 197?


-----------------------

Sadly, i can only use it at night. Because i am going for Javert investigation, would it be safe to say that i would only be killed if Javert was scum? Or would the scum just kill me anyway to make Javert look suspicious.?

Here's a tip: Don't. First of all, him using his kill today would be enough proof. Secondly, He'll probably be night killed because of his claim.
I see no reason to investigate him unless his day kill is not used as promised.

These 2 posts make me sad for mafiascum.

----------------------

1) I was pointing out his soft claim.
2) Why may I ask?