The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[GummyBear]

If there's one thing I hate, it's being limited to X options just because it's close to deadline. If I don't think those options are good, I won't take them, and I'm more than willing to spearhead a new one if I have to. I do not lynch for information; I lynch to kill scum.

I agree that flips are usually good for kicking games back into gear, but I'm not going to rush headlong into a lynch just for that.

I don't want to lynch DaSpotthatkillsu; I think they're town. The situation around the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon feels abnormal for me; if Frogito Ergo Sum were scum, I'd expect some epic bussing or something, and their lurky play certainly warrants it. Instead, it's... this, and it bothers me. I'll do a more detailed reading later once I'm semi-done catching up elsewhere, but this is my impression of the situation right now.

Bold is ours.

You're not going to rush headlong into a lynch, but you will start a "flash wagon" on us?

Also, how is lynching FES "rushing headlong" into anything? He's been near-lynch all day long.

Greymarble: that post-analysis has been applicable for a while. Why does it suddenly change your vote now?

FD's vote isn't even worth addressing.

WRONG. It has to be GummyBear.

Wait, wait, wait. We can't say that we should lynch from the two largest wagons all today, but you can say that we have to be the lynch, after getting 3 votes on us out of nowhere at the end of the day?

[Balam]

(Equinox)

I don't think starting a flash wagon on you is the same as rushing into a lynch. I've had an entire game day to simmer on this one. I've decided that lynching you is the best option for today.

Saying there's only two options for lynching today keeps things extremely limited and forces a dilemma. It encourages lazy play, and it's scummy to be in that mindset. I don't think I'm narrowing options by saying you have to be the lynch today; either people agree with me or don't. I'm not saying, "Well, I gotta lynch between DaSpotthatkillsu and Frogito Ergo Sum today, not like there are any other viable options."

FD's vote isn't even worth addressing.

Why not? What do you think of his hop to you?

[GreyICE]

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:36 am CONTENT = WALL
» Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:04 am CONTENT = ANYONE NOT VOTING FES IS SCUMMY
» Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:52 am CONTENT = CATCHUP LATER
» Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:26 pm CONTENT = SCUMPLAIN NO CATCHUP
» Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:39 pm CONTENT = NOW SOMEONE HAMMER OBV

SUDDENLY LOTS OF CONTENT FROM GUMMYBEAR

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Greymarble]

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:36 am CONTENT = WALL
» Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:04 am CONTENT = ANYONE NOT VOTING FES IS SCUMMY
» Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:52 am CONTENT = CATCHUP LATER
» Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:26 pm CONTENT = SCUMPLAIN NO CATCHUP
» Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:39 pm CONTENT = NOW SOMEONE HAMMER OBV

SUDDENLY LOTS OF CONTENT FROM GUMMYBEAR

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[GummyBear]

I don't think starting a flash wagon on you is the same as rushing into a lynch.

I disagree. You started a wagon with clear intent to lynch. The modifier "flash" is the same thing as "speedy" or "quick."

Saying there's only two options for lynching today keeps things extremely limited and forces a dilemma. It encourages lazy play, and it's scummy to be in that mindset. I don't think I'm narrowing options by saying you have to be the lynch today; either people agree with me or don't. I'm not saying, "Well, I gotta lynch between DaSpotthatkillsu and Frogito Ergo Sum today, not like there are any other viable options."

Why is saying there's two options to lynch somehow worse than stating that there's only 1 option to lynch? Again, I think it's quite the opposite. Additionally, as to your point about "either people agree with me or they don't": why does that apply to you calling us the only viable lynch, but not us calling FES and Daspot the only viable lynches?

Why not? What do you think of his hop to you?

Our statement was intended to express derision. His hop to us was terrible, and he had pretty much 0 reasoning for it. However, we've seen townFate do that jillions of times. We're reserving judgment until I can see AGM & Fate post together on this topic.

Additionally, I'd like to hear a response from you on this point from our previous post:

Also, how is lynching FES "rushing headlong" into anything? He's been near-lynch all day long.

P-Edit: Grey, what is the point of that post? Care to respond to our question?

[Greymarble]

At some point it becomes obvious that a day late and a dollar short is not a temporary condition
but an accepted state
If a state is accepted, it is acceptable.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Seriously, GummyBear, where was this activity when we were all on "wait and see" mode?

I'm not calling you "the only viable lynch." In fact, I made a pretty huge gamble voting you; the only other person on this was Lord Fonzi, so I was surprised by the sudden support. I'm pushing your lynch; I'm pretty much going to say "It has to be X" for a lynch I put my weight behind.

You insisted on this, so I'll answer it:

Also, how is lynching FES "rushing headlong" into anything? He's been near-lynch all day long.

If you put it this way, yeah, you're right; if I chose to lynch Frogito Ergo Sum, it wouldn't have been a rushed decision. There would have been a lot of thought going into that.

However, in a situation where I disagree with both of the wagons on the table, telling me (even if the request was a broad one addressed to the thread in general) that there are only those two options means I'll be rushing, headlong, into a lynch I don't necessarily agree with, even if that wagon has been sitting around all day.

Tell me how this is relevant because I fail to see it.

Now you're picking stuff out of my posts because you don't like the fact that you got run up to L-2, and it's a wagon filled with pro-town people. Don't start semantics arguments to fill the thread up with noise. If you think I'm scum for doing this, call me out on it; no softballs.

[GummyBear]

(Equinox)

Seriously, GummyBear, where was this activity when we were all on "wait and see" mode?

We were busy. Shockingly enough, IRL busy-ness is not a permanent (or always predictable) state.

I'm not calling you "the only viable lynch." In fact, I made a pretty huge gamble voting you; the only other person on this was Lord Fonzi, so I was surprised by the sudden support. I'm pushing your lynch; I'm pretty much going to say "It has to be X" for a lynch I put my weight behind.

You insisted on this, so I'll answer it:

Also, how is lynching FES "rushing headlong" into anything? He's been near-lynch all day long.

If you put it this way, yeah, you're right; if I chose to lynch Frogito Ergo Sum, it wouldn't have been a rushed decision. There would have been a lot of thought going into that.

However, in a situation where I disagree with both of the wagons on the table, telling me (even if the request was a broad one addressed to the thread in general) that there are only those two options means I'll be rushing, headlong, into a lynch I don't necessarily agree with, even if that wagon has been sitting around all day.

Tell me how this is relevant because I fail to see it.

That point is fair, within the situation you mention (where you disagree with both current lynch options). However, you've previously acknowledged the scumminess of both wagons, especially that of FES, so I don't see how that particular hypothetical applies here.

It's relevant because you specifically mentioned not wanting to lynch FES because you'd be rushing headlong into a lynch by doing so, while it seems awfully clear that lynching FES would be far from a rush decision. It appeared to be an attempt to unfairly undermine our point.

Now you're picking stuff out of my posts because you don't like the fact that you got run up to L-2, and it's a wagon filled with pro-town people. Don't start semantics arguments to fill the thread up with noise. If you think I'm scum for doing this, call me out on it; no softballs.

... No, I'm picking stuff out of the posts of everyone who's been posting this evening. You just happen to be posting frequently. Additionally, I'd like you to point out which arguments are semantic. I feel as though you're unfairly discrediting our arguments, again. We don't think you're scum right now; our townread on you stands. You're obviously not pushing for the easy lynch; if you were, you would've just stuck with FES. Honestly, I feel as though our inactivity in the rest of Day 2 is affecting your reactions to us now, and there's at least a slight amount of confirmation bias going on.

[Balam]

(AGar)

I'm not calling you "the only viable lynch." In fact, I made a pretty huge gamble voting you; the only other person on this was Lord Fonzi, so I was surprised by the sudden support. I'm pushing your lynch; I'm pretty much going to say "It has to be X" for a lynch I put my weight behind.

You insisted on this, so I'll answer it:

Also, how is lynching FES "rushing headlong" into anything? He's been near-lynch all day long.

If you put it this way, yeah, you're right; if I chose to lynch Frogito Ergo Sum, it wouldn't have been a rushed decision. There would have been a lot of thought going into that.

However, in a situation where I disagree with both of the wagons on the table, telling me (even if the request was a broad one addressed to the thread in general) that there are only those two options means I'll be rushing, headlong, into a lynch I don't necessarily agree with, even if that wagon has been sitting around all day.

Tell me how this is relevant because I fail to see it.

That point is fair, within the situation you mention (where you disagree with both current lynch options). However, you've previously acknowledged the scumminess of both wagons, especially that of FES, so I don't see how that particular hypothetical applies here.

It's relevant because you specifically mentioned not wanting to lynch FES because you'd be rushing headlong into a lynch by doing so, while it seems awfully clear that lynching FES would be far from a rush decision. It appeared to be an attempt to unfairly undermine our point.

Lynching FES wouldn't be a rush decision in terms of "time spent" deliberating it. It would be, however, in terms of "hey, we're not comfortable with this recently, but fuck it, don't stop to think on it, just ride it out." That you can't grasp that concept is disturbing, as Equinox has pretty plainly laid that out.

Now you're picking stuff out of my posts because you don't like the fact that you got run up to L-2, and it's a wagon filled with pro-town people. Don't start semantics arguments to fill the thread up with noise. If you think I'm scum for doing this, call me out on it; no softballs.

... No, I'm picking stuff out of the posts of everyone who's been posting this evening. You just happen to be posting frequently. Additionally, I'd like you to point out which arguments are semantic. I feel as though you're unfairly discrediting our arguments, again. We don't think you're scum right now; our townread on you stands. You're obviously not pushing for the easy lynch; if you were, you would've just stuck with FES. Honestly, I feel as though our inactivity in the rest of Day 2 is affecting your reactions to us now, and there's at least a slight amount of confirmation bias going on.

Do I start with "flash wagon", "rushing" and "headlong"? Yes, a flash wagon is a wagon that builds fast. No, just choosing a flash wagon isn't "rushing headlong" into a lynch. You haven't been a favorite poster all game, and you're aware of this. While the choice to hop off caught me off guard, and I wasn't at first in agreement with the sentiment, we've discussed you pretty regularly. You've managed to coast through the first two days relatively unnoticed, but now that you're under some pressure, the reaction has been pretty sour. Like scum that's been content with no attention, all of the sudden feeling the flames at their feet and panicking because this is very, very real.

[Unicorn Brethren]

hang on...

one head thinks gummy is scum the other doesn't over here... so... why is gummy scum?

HOLY SHIT THEY ARE SCUM TOGETHER

NEIGH. GIT R DONE.

[Greymarble]

I think Reaper Charlie is EXACTLY ballsy and stupid enough to play this badly as scum.

I have tomorrow's lynch.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

I have tomorrow's lynch.

YES WE CAN.

[Unicorn Brethren]

GET THAT SHIT THE FUCK OUTTA HERE.

AND WE ARE READY TO LOWER T3H HAMMER AGAIN. PUT HIM AT L-1, BOYS.

[GummyBear]

Lynching FES wouldn't be a rush decision in terms of "time spent" deliberating it. It would be, however, in terms of "hey, we're not comfortable with this recently, but fuck it, don't stop to think on it, just ride it out." That you can't grasp that concept is disturbing, as Equinox has pretty plainly laid that out.

So you're saying that you are no longer in favor of an FES lynch? Because until our vote-post, I don't think you'd expressed that sentiment. You actually voted them to L-1 the post before you voted us. If you were, in fact, uncomfortable with an FES lynch, you certainly weren't showing it.

Do I start with "flash wagon", "rushing" and "headlong"? Yes, a flash wagon is a wagon that builds fast. No, just choosing a flash wagon isn't "rushing headlong" into a lynch. You haven't been a favorite poster all game, and you're aware of this. While the choice to hop off caught me off guard, and I wasn't at first in agreement with the sentiment, we've discussed you pretty regularly. You've managed to coast through the first two days relatively unnoticed, but now that you're under some pressure, the reaction has been pretty sour. Like scum that's been content with no attention, all of the sudden feeling the flames at their feet and panicking because this is very, very real.

I can warily accept your explanation on the flash wagon thing. It makes sense, but I still feel like there was intent to lynch in that statement (however, it's very possible that's OMGUS/survival instinct kicking in). However, as to a sour reaction under pressure? Explain how we've had a poor reaction to pressure. We're finally ready to put some time into this game (and again, our apologies for that not happening sooner), so we've been posting more. Hell, when we made our vote on FES, I figured it would throw a lot of pressure on us, but a) we think they're scum, and b) it's something new and different and would hopefully kickstart discussion. And hey, lookit that, it worked. We're in favor of moving this game along, and hell, if that means us getting lynched, then so be it. Interesting games are better for town.

(Equinox)

I have tomorrow's lynch.

YES WE CAN.

We approve.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

So you're saying that you are no longer in favor of an FES lynch? Because until our vote-post, I don't think you'd expressed that sentiment. You actually voted them to L-1 the post before you voted us. If you were, in fact, uncomfortable with an FES lynch, you certainly weren't showing it.

I didn't get uncomfortable until I saw your post. At that point, I realized the wagon didn't feel like a lynch on scum.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Pro-tip: Check what button you're clicking before clicking.

I can warily accept your explanation on the flash wagon thing. It makes sense, but I still feel like there was intent to lynch in that statement (however, it's very possible that's OMGUS/survival instinct kicking in).

Don't get me wrong; there is intent to lynch here. I don't start wagons at deadline for funsies.

However, as to a sour reaction under pressure? Explain how we've had a poor reaction to pressure. We're finally ready to put some time into this game (and again, our apologies for that not happening sooner), so we've been posting more. Hell, when we made our vote on FES, I figured it would throw a lot of pressure on us, but a) we think they're scum, and b) it's something new and different and would hopefully kickstart discussion. And hey, lookit that, it worked. We're in favor of moving this game along, and hell, if that means us getting lynched, then so be it. Interesting games are better for town.

You reacted by picking apart my wording in a paragraph about why I disagreed with the DaSpotthatkillsu vs. Frogito Ergo Sum dichotomy. That's not a reaction I'd expect to see from town who just had a wagon explode to L-2 (with threat of L-1) within a span of minutes. When I pressed you about why you asked me that question, you stated it was because you thought I was undermining your arguments due to confirmation bias; your time would be better spent discerning our alignment, not trying to convince me I'm wrong due to some words I wrote.

I have to agree that your vote did get me and other people back into this game, so +props for you.

...gotta admit that the thought of being able to launch a Unicorn Brethren wagon today is really, really tempting.

HI FROGITO ERGO SUM.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Even my fellow head AGar was confused by my GummyBear vote, so I'll explain. There have been numerous complaints about the game state in this thread, starting with Super Vanilla Townie, and then GummyBear busts in here and goes, "This game sucks!" Way to dampen the town's morale. Bringing town down in this manner is a scum tactic that I have seen work. I'd expect, after 4 people have complained, that the next person to feel that way would know to shut up and do something about it. Slapping a vote on the big wagon and then going, "Game sucks, can we move on now?" isn't productive. Heck, even deadline lynching is more productive than post 752.

Although I like the thought put into this, it doesn't feel to me like something signsign/quadz would do intentionally. They're not particularly devious.

That said, Gummybear's responses to this wagon have bad. I don't know what would possess them to defend themselves based on an information argument (#760); the "flash wagon"-"running headlong" thing was pointless; "why does that apply to you calling us the only viable lynch, but not us calling FES and Daspot the only viable lynches?" relies on a switcheroo in the meaning of viable from "viable [as far as I'm concerned]" to "[objectively] viable".

Hell, when we made our vote on FES, I figured it would throw a lot of pressure on us, but a) we think they're scum, and b) it's something new and different and would hopefully kickstart discussion. And hey, lookit that, it worked.

Why were you expecting pressure? Why didn't you vote earlier if you thought we were scum? How exactly is a vote for us new? Why would it kickstart discussion? If anything, it strikes me as moving towards ending the Day.

HI FROGITO ERGO SUM.

HI BALAM.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

..... Nope. other head confirms not having this lynch.

VOTE: FES just to make sure.

there was more content in gummys ISO than in yoscayke's and FES's

don't make me call yall stupid again.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

yoscyake's and fes's COMBINED*

[YosFlavouredCayke]

.
YOSCAYKES LATEST HARDCORE DEFENSE OF FES GIVES US SECOND THOUGHTS AS WELL, AS IF HE KNOWS FES' TOWNFLIP WILL CONDEMN HIM VIA POE (BECAUSE YOS IS DEFSCUM IF FES IS SOMEHOW SPACETOWN)

This is just terrible. If I'm right about FES, that makes me scum for defending him so hard? From some people, I'd expect that kind of logic, but I know for a fact that you, Fate, will go to unbelievable lengths to prevent a lynch on someone you have a town read on, up to and including fakeclaims. So the fact that you're calling me scummy for trying to prevent a mislynch on someone I'm strongly confident is town just seems bizarre to me.

Anyway:

(Equinox)

Guess what, guys? I'm going to hop off. It's too complacent of a wagon for me. Instead, let's get a flash wagon going.

Unvote, Vote: GummyBear

Even my fellow head AGar was confused by my GummyBear vote, so I'll explain. There have been numerous complaints about the game state in this thread, starting with Super Vanilla Townie, and then GummyBear busts in here and goes, "This game sucks!" Way to dampen the town's morale. Bringing town down in this manner is a scum tactic that I have seen work. I'd expect, after 4 people have complained, that the next person to feel that way would know to shut up and do something about it. Slapping a vote on the big wagon and then going, "Game sucks, can we move on now?" isn't productive. Heck, even deadline lynching is more productive than post 752.

This is definite *goodposting*. Gummy looks pretty bad here. I'm still hoping we can get some movement on the Spot wagon here, but if not, the Gummy wagon would be a reasonable compromise wagon, and I'll most likely join it before deadline if nothing changes. (Also, Spot's recent posting has really increased the odds that Spot and Gummy are scum together, so it's kind of a win/win here.)

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

^^

"

I'm still hoping we can get some movement on the Spot wagon here

, but if not, the Gummy wagon would be a reasonable compromise wagon, and I'll most likely join it before deadline if nothing changes.

(Also, Spot's recent posting has really increased the odds that Spot and Gummy are scum together, so it's kind of a win/win here.)

"

cooltunnelbro

[YosFlavouredCayke]

cooltunnelbro

Hey, I caught scum here. You blatantly refused to even respond to my case against you, and I pretty much just consider that a confession. You are going to hang sooner or later; even if you kill me tonight, I'm sure your scummy behavior is just going to keep becoming more obvious to the rest of the town.

That being said, there's more then one scum, and if I can't get you today, I'll have to settle for one of your buddies.

[Greymarble]

cooltunnelbro

Hey, I caught scum here. You blatantly refused to even respond to my case against you, and I pretty much just consider that a confession. You are going to hang sooner or later; even if you kill me tonight, I'm sure your scummy behavior is just going to keep becoming more obvious to the rest of the town.

That being said, there's more then one scum, and if I can't get you today, I'll have to settle for one of your buddies.

Were #794 and #796 scumclaims, or is it just me?

[GummyBear]

However, as to a sour reaction under pressure? Explain how we've had a poor reaction to pressure. We're finally ready to put some time into this game (and again, our apologies for that not happening sooner), so we've been posting more. Hell, when we made our vote on FES, I figured it would throw a lot of pressure on us, but a) we think they're scum, and b) it's something new and different and would hopefully kickstart discussion. And hey, lookit that, it worked. We're in favor of moving this game along, and hell, if that means us getting lynched, then so be it. Interesting games are better for town.

You reacted by picking apart my wording in a paragraph about why I disagreed with the DaSpotthatkillsu vs. Frogito Ergo Sum dichotomy. That's not a reaction I'd expect to see from town who just had a wagon explode to L-2 (with threat of L-1) within a span of minutes. When I pressed you about why you asked me that question, you stated it was because you thought I was undermining your arguments due to confirmation bias; your time would be better spent discerning our alignment, not trying to convince me I'm wrong due to some words I wrote.

Explain to me how we are to attempt to discern your alignment any further than we already had. We caught up completely, did ISOs, the works. Our read on you hasn't changed because of this attack on us. We've done as much legitimate scumhunting as possible. We named our reads right up to our vote-on-FES post. I don't understand where more scumhunting was supposed to come from.

Additionally, what kind of reaction DO you expect in this situation? TBQH, I don't really see a possible alternate response.

That said, Gummybear's responses to this wagon have bad. I don't know what would possess them to defend themselves based on an information argument (#760); the "flash wagon"-"running headlong" thing was pointless; "why does that apply to you calling us the only viable lynch, but not us calling FES and Daspot the only viable lynches?" relies on a switcheroo in the meaning of viable from "viable [as far as I'm concerned]" to "[objectively] viable".

We defended ourselves based on an information argument because this game is CLEARLY stagnant. We need info to move it along. I used a consistent meaning of viable throughout my argument; if someone else was using a different meaning, then I expect them to say that we're using different meanings.

Why were you expecting pressure? Why didn't you vote earlier if you thought we were scum? How exactly is a vote for us new? Why would it kickstart discussion? If anything, it strikes me as moving towards ending the Day.

Hi there, obvious fluff-questions. 1: because we hadn't very active, and we were putting you at L-1. 2: Because we were voting someone we thought was scummier. 3: See 1 and 2. 4: See your question number 1. 5: Ummmm... that's because it is? I mean, deadline IS still Saturday, right?

there was more content in gummys ISO than in yoscayke's and FES's

Ummm... what? You think we have more content than YFC? Really?

P-Edit: Care to explain that comment, Grey?

[Greymarble]

Llama here.
That was Grey saying 794 & 796 were scumclaims, but I think I agree. They smell a lot like "okay I'll lynch my buddy now and then let's make this mislynch tomorrow. Easiest excuse is to say my scumpal looks like a buddy of the mislynch I've been pushing."

Dilemma mafia Yosscummeta shows him saying "I like where you're going with that" when Bub & others attacked his scumbuddy. Here we have:

Here I logged on intenting to sheep on you onto the gummywagon, Ether, mostly because your posting last page was awesome. Now I have to actually think for myself? Bah.

I do approve of the Dana wagon, and was not aware we were getting into serious mode. FES makes the strongest case for Dana, IMO ("^scum")

Last post AGM made in the hydra QT was asking me if I cared about the hydra that didn't reveal itself, so we still haven't had a chance to discuss reads or place a real vote down.

The whole "was not aware we were getting into serious mode" bit is mildly scummy. Also, the whole post does feel oddly overcautious, which, in my limited experence with him, is not a trait I normally associate with Fate.

Sure, let's ride this wagon and see what happens.

Vote:Final Destination

-Yos

And

Gummy bear looks like an easy mislynch, and that was such a nice little way of saying "oh, I could see hopping to that wagon if it gains momentum, but I just don't trust it..."

Ok, now, that's absurd.

Ether's reasoning for suspecting Gummy made perfect sense, and was about as strong as you'd expect for page 5 of day 1. The fact that she was willing to wagon hop to someone else scummy in order to get pressure going is a good sign, not a bad one. Basically as soon as the game started, she ran right out onto the high wire without a net, just to get reactions and to get the game moving. And what's more, she's clearly having fun doing it; if Ether's enjoying herself in a game, you can bet money that she's town.

Are you reading Ether's posts this game? Half the reason I was assuming Fate was scum because I didn't think there's any way that anyone pro-town could read Ether's posts and not see that they all screamed town.

Yos' stuff on Gummy all sounds like "I'll vote my buddy if his wagon really takes off and in the mean time I'll say I like peoples' thinking when they vote them. I won't superpress their lynch myself though."

Also Yos wants to lynch obvtownspot. @Yos: Did you actually think I was scum on the other scumteam in Dilemma mafia?
Also Yos fits with my "scumteam has really good players" feeling I've been getting.

So Yos gets heavy scrutiny if we get a scumflip out of Gummy.