Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[Erratus Apathos]

well I can't be 100% certain can I? I'm only being honest about what I think
anyways, It was on javert, so there's no issue

adshjkdgijkhdsagjkhasdgh

How. in. the. HELL. can you not be certain of where your vote is?

EA: Pro said I don't mind being vigged. You asked him why he stated this comment. Not hey vig, shoot me.
There is a difference in wording.
How do you know his attitude isn't fake? IE: You think one comment is fake, but not the other????

Okay, I admit it's a different wording, but in my opinion they're similar enough that I lump them in together.

I didn't think his first comment was fake, I simply found it null. I think his second comment is a towntell because he confidently maintained his position even when it drew fire.

Wow. I couldn't get on the site at all yesterday and now I'm greeted with a ton of new content. I'm getting caught up now.

then

UNVOTE: you're on now. As soon as your finished reading up, top scum please.

o rly? unvoting so soon? The slightest trace of NE and you unvoted, before any content of his too. Ah well, you've claimed cop, so i guess it doesn't matter too much.

Oh good, here's another scumtell from TS! He attacks ender for unvoting, but then immediately tacks on a comment that distances himself from it. It serves no protown purpose. So why did he post it? Because he doesn't want to get into an argument.

you want to vig klazam?
Wasn't he v/la

anyways, I don't like directing the vig. I can see scum doing that easily and with good reason to do so.

Well too damn bad. I'm going to say who I think Javert should vig, whether you like it or not.

Why would I want to attack javert?

Because you were voting him? That's usually what townies do to the people they vote. Are you admitting your vote on Javert was bullshit? You totally should, it'd be a lot easier than trying to argue that it was a meaningful vote.

@EA: I'm surprised that you were grilling Klazam over lurking after the last game the three of us were in (it's completed, so no worries). At least he posted that he was V/LA this time. Why are you attacking him over it now?

What are you talking about? Klazam didn't lurk in Mini 1133 at all. He had 59 posts which is pretty damn good considering he was only alive for roughly nine RL days. For comparison this game has been active for roughly eight RL days and he's made ten posts. Half of which are worthless saporovirusy fluff.

As much as I want to see TS lynched though, I should point out that I believe he's at L-2 (me, Rhinox, NE, farside, Juls) so hold off on voting him any further until Javert uses his vig.

[Prosaurus]

I don't know why, but i have a good feeling Prosaurus is scum. I have no reason for this so i will not vote him though but i am noting that because if i get one of those in another game then i can detect scum.
@Prosaurus - I find it interesting that earlier you said you were a newbie, your playing alot better than a newbie you know?

Why thank you. Though I am new, you can see I've only had two games.

@EA You seem to be defending Ender alot. Mind to post your main reasons you think he's town?

Cause his angry reaction to Javert's claim is totally legitimate, and it's not how scum would react to that claim.

And why not?

SCUM FOUND

Post-146:02 April 2005

..
Javert, is your day vig 1-shot?
..

Post-201:04 April 2011

Alright my role is.... One-shot cop.

Post-248:07 April 2011

..
Out of all the things in this game, you think what you perceive to be role-fishing to be the scummiest stuff in the game? Look, I can think of at least one reason for asking that off the top of my head. A doctor trying to figure out whether to protect a vig, which if not 1-shot, would be the best thing to do, or a 1-shot cop, when a 1-shot vig has already used his bullet.

Time line is WAY, WAY screwed up there.

When M=W asked Javert about being a 1-shot, ender hadn't claimed yet. That he tries to counter Klazam's role-fish accusation by using a "Helping a possible Doc decide between a 1-shot Cop and a used up Vig." scenario, well....that stinks.

Role clarification, trying to get the claimant(Javert) to contradict himself on role abilities, seeing if the claimant will balk at a full role reveal...those are all decent pro-town reasons to ask what M=W did.

That he justifies asking the question when called out on it by using evidence in the thread that wasn't there when he asked the question is not.

VOTE: Me=Weird

We've just been lied to folks. The "one reason off the top of my head" that M=E used to justify the question just doesn't hold water.

Huh? Can explain this clearer? Only thing wrong with that timeline I see is the first post says 2005.

Pro - newb town - ugh so many things I want to say and put my IC hat on about.

First voting even anyone for any reason is good. It brings discussion and if someone hammers for no reason during the first few pages they are more likely scum.
Hence voting someone even during RVS is a good thing for info.
Pointing out a soft claim helps scum.
Seeing Javert respond to the same most makes me cringe if Javert is town as I see more scum motivation then town for pointing out the soft claim.
Also I have a question for you. Juls states you are in another game have you learned nothing on how to scum hunt or things that sound off/scummy or seen anything in this game that you see that feels or reads off?
Your 3rd point in your last point is a good start, it's more theory then anything but expand more.
Anyways reading Pro I read someone a bit lost.

Well I'd say I have learnt

something

but it sounds like I didn't learnt much.

Back to read more soon.

[Prosaurus]

Oh, I also need to UNVOTE: Javert since I don't exactly have a case on him anymore. Thinking of voting Rhinox, am going to read through his posts.

[Prosaurus]

Eh. No real evidence, but keeps denying that EA or Ender could possibly be scum.
Also, speaking of Javert, it's been over 2 days since his last post, hasn't it?

[Oso]

..
Huh? Can explain this clearer? Only thing wrong with that timeline I see is the first post says 2005.
..

Heh, I hadn't noticed that. The 2005, I was freehanding the post numbers and dates in. Not copy/paste.

Short version.

-Questions Javerts about being a 1-shot vig
-ender claims 1-shot Cop.
-M=W defends asking about Javert's number of shots by saying that he wanted clarification. Part of defending that was bringing up ender's role. which he couldn't have know about before ender's claim. He could guess, which he did from ender's soft-claim but it looked a lot like he was defending his asking for role clarification by referencing ender's exact role.

In this case, it looks like effect before cause, which is generally impossible.

[farside22]

When Javert first claimed I had assumed he would have used it by now. By the way he was swinging his claim around like a club I thought that he was going to use it soon. I guess it might just have been a ruse to stop lurkers lurking. Anyways, Javert, will you be vig'ing today still? If so, who are your scumreads?

Why? It doesn't matter when he uses it today as long as it's today. And if it was a gambit to get a lurkers attention it didn't work very well on Klaz.

TS: In one post who do you find to be scum and why?

@Juls:

I think it would be epically stupid for a cop to cc ender on D1.

Why?
Normal game means doctor is a good possibility and we lynch confirmed scum. mmmm normal also means a good possibility of scum RB too......for me I would rather lynch confirmed scum day 1.

My scum-reads right now are TS and Max. I have some hate going on for ender right now though with that "accident" comment. And something isn't right for me with M=W still. But I would rather pursue something more tangible.

Well we agree on one. Max latest response on not knowing who to vote is odd. I don't see who there could be a problem. If you have suspicion then that is good enough to vote.
I see his date of starting on MS.
Max have you ever had a mafia role on MS?

[farside22]

Sorry I forgot to quote the first paragraph there.

When Javert first claimed I had assumed he would have used it by now. By the way he was swinging his claim around like a club I thought that he was going to use it soon. I guess it might just have been a ruse to stop lurkers lurking. Anyways, Javert, will you be vig'ing today still? If so, who are your scumreads?

Why? It doesn't matter when he uses it today as long as it's today. And if it was a gambit to get a lurkers attention it didn't work very well on Klaz.

TS: In one post who do you find to be scum and why?

[Oso]

@TA. You can consider yourself at L-1 if you wish. I'd vote if we didn't have the question of Javert right now.

(As an aside, I checked. Javert hasn't posted anywhere on site since his last in this thread which was just a hair under 2 1/2 days ago)

I don't have anything original in my reasoning for your vote. Players have pretty much picked over your play so far and caught everything. Some things that do stand out:

1)Your posting lacks coherence. You are all over the place. No follow ups, no prods, no real pokes at players.
2)Votes. Same as above. The only vote you placed where there was a tangible and defensible reason was the vote of Javert.
3)Your vote of NE. Bogus reason. NE maybe wasn't posting as much as others (he[NE] even indicates as much) but his posts generally have content in them. They aren't fluff posts and he isn't posting just to keep his name active in the thread.
4)We are 12 pages and 10 days into the game and you have done absolutely nothing other than just stay active. You haven't made an attack or case of your own. Hell, you haven't even tried to borrow a decent case and reword it. Pretty much active lurking and with your NE vote, I'll have to throw in with EA and add vote parking as well.

The above pretty much, at least in my mind, takes you(Twisted) out of the unsure/null/newish player category and into Scum.

[Oso]

Edit
@TA=@TS.

[Rhinox]

Why say this, then not follow up with Maxous questions to you?
Instead you go back to TS as scum. What reason do you believe TS is scum?

Because Maxous was confused (or I am). This is what Maxous said:

@Rhinox: Because you called Ender an 'easy target' for scum to go after, but you never said who the scum are. Who is the opportunistic mafia?
TS was'nt voting for him(I think?)

But I didn't vote TS for being opportunistic, I voted TS for other reasons. I made a comment that ender was an easy target, but I wasn't ready to examine the ender wagon yet and look for if there was any opportunistic scum there or not (some town players lock on to easy wagons too!). I wanted to focus on TS, but max seems to think or imply that my TS vote doesn't make sense because it doesn't stem from the easy target ender premise. But rather it stems from the role speculating premise mentioned a few posts before.

I think you hit most of the reasons why I believe TS is scum in a later post.

Rhinox: Where is your town read of EA coming from?

From staying away from the ender wagon and pushing TS. And lots of good scumhunting throughout his posts.

--------------------

These are iso 11-17. I dont see anything scummy here. Asking whether the investigation is night or day, i think is a good question, unlike asking if he was one-shot. He asked Javert why his claim occurred at that time, which is a fair question.


That's all of substance i could find in these. Rhinox, would you mind explaining to me why you pointed out these posts?

So you don't see #12 as role fishing, or how about

#16: To a townie, whether a 1-shot investigation is day or night doesn't matter, but to a scum role blocker for example, it would be beneficial to know.

(bolded to stand out for importance). And all the other speculating in every one of those posts is in itself a form of indirect role fishing, even 14 where he accuses someone else of role fishing then says "what did you expect etc..." it says A) he's already been thinking about what enders softclaim meant and pointed it out in thread and B) answering the "What did you expect" question just leads to more role speculation all around.

-------------------

Oso's slip on M=W is interesting, but given the soft claim I think I accept M=W explaination. It is weird that he specifically used 1-shot in his example when at the time he only would have reason to infer "cop" with no knowledge of shot. But I can fill in the blanks myself so I'm not too worried about it.

Reading further:

The only real problem I have with it is that he specifically used "1-Shot Cop". That piece of information wasn't available to him when he asked Javert the question. But I can stretch that, without too much trouble, to being a player thinking a soft-claim is a cop claim and having that thinking confirmed. "1-Shot Cop" replaces "Cop" in his thinking.

I swear I didn't read this before I wrote the above. Weird.

------------------

Rhinox: The question you ask to TS about asking/specualing others roles. EA asked the same question as TS. Why point out TS and not EA?

I saw it, but TS was in general more interested in roles as you point out later in your post. It wasn't just that one question I was referring to when I asked TS about speculating about roles.

-----------------

@Rhinox: So you think ender is town based on his meta. How can we tell if he is scum?

No, I've mentioned nothing of meta. I don't believe I've ever played with ender before. The comments I made regarding him are based on play in this game only.

Anybody on that list {

Javert

, Oso, farside22, Me=Weird, Necessary Evil} sticking out to you at the moment?

I'm still interested in Oso, but I haven't really looked into the rest of you too much. Oso's been looking better though, and Javert's vanishing act maybe lightens the strikeout a little bit.

----------------

@Rhinox: In post 211 you ask prosaurus why he asked ender to claim. Why not ask me that question? In the post directly above I had told ender to claim.

Pros stuck out because he didn't say he wanted ender to claim bc he thought he was scummy or anything, he was more egging him on. You gave your reasons why you wanted ender to claim right in the post, so why would I need to ask you why you wanted ender to claim? I already had the answer.

---------------

Alright I'm caught back up. Just want to say I like the activity, but damn this game has like ADD or something - seems like its going in a million different directions at the same time. Not necessarily a bad thing, just hard to keep everything straight.

I do like the twisted wagon/lynch. If we're treating L-2 as L-1, and it seems others are also happy with the direction of the TS wagon, then I think we're ready for a claim and/or Javert getting his ass back in here and doing his thing so we can get on to lynching.

[Oso]

..
Oso's slip on M=W is interesting, but given the soft claim I think I accept M=W explaination. It is weird that he specifically used 1-shot in his example when at the time he only would have reason to infer "cop" with no knowledge of shot. But I can fill in the blanks myself so I'm not too worried about it.

Reading further:

The only real problem I have with it is that he specifically used "1-Shot Cop". That piece of information wasn't available to him when he asked Javert the question. But I can stretch that, without too much trouble, to being a player thinking a soft-claim is a cop claim and having that thinking confirmed. "1-Shot Cop" replaces "Cop" in his thinking.

I swear I didn't read this before I wrote the above. Weird.
..

Yeah. To clarify though. That is me giving M=W the benefit of the doubt there. I noticed the part you said about this game suffering a form of ADD myself. Good, but confusing. I've made the same sort of mistake myself on occasion in games when activity goes through the roof. Exact timing gets flipped around a bit and you can catch scum that way but just as often I have 'caught' town, and been 'caught' myself as town, because of that.

As a recap of own, I'll try to keep it short.

M=W and Ender are by no means cleared in my thinking although they aren't high on my list of suspects.

M=W because of the way he worded his defense and because he used that exact defense when there were other, equally plausible reasons to defend asking Javert that question without speculating on other roles.

Ender, because of the claim itself. I can see it as a great way to both avoid inadvertently having to sell more innocents than scum can kill and to help avoid a counter sometime after today. I know you(Rhinox) disagree with that but since we both seem to agree that lynching Ender is not the thing to do today, I'm not sure that matters.

Opinion on Javert hasn't changed.

TS(my last post), Javert, Ender and M=E(this post)...I'll leave the recap at that for the moment. If an opinion is needed on any other player, assume 'null/neutral' as of this post.

[Twistedspoon]

@TA. You can consider yourself at L-1 if you wish. I'd vote if we didn't have the question of Javert right now.

Right then. Fair enough

I'll claim if you guys want me to

[Twistedspoon]

I'm just slightly reluctant though. We've already outed 2 PRs today. I don't want a 3rd claim unless you guys think It's absolutely necessary that I do

Then I shall willingly do so

[Rhinox]

I'm just slightly reluctant though. We've already outed 2 PRs today. I don't want a 3rd claim unless you guys think It's absolutely necessary that I do

Then I shall willingly do so

lol. I don't care what your claim is now. This post is scummy as hell. You're scum and I want you lynched regardless of your claim.

[Twistedspoon]

why? What's wrong with not wanting all our PRs outed?

anyways, I'm a one-shot cop

explains why I questioned Ender about his role I guess. I wanted to check it was the same as mine. I was quite surprised when he claimed one-shot cop

[Maxous]

Hmm well, that does fit in with this response.

@TS: I still don't get why you said NE was scummy when you said it was only a pressure vote though.

lol. I don't care what your claim is now. This post is scummy as hell. You're scum and I want you lynched regardless of your claim.

Really? And what is the difference between the response from TS and the response from Ender when he was effectively at L-1?

There is something off between Rhinox, Erratus and Ender. Having a CC for Ender means his period of grace is over.

Unvote

VOTE: Ender241

Well we agree on one. Max latest response on not knowing who to vote is odd. I don't see who there could be a problem.

If you have suspicion then that is good enough to vote.

I see his date of starting on MS.
Max have you ever had a mafia role on MS?

Bolded part - that is a matter of preference. I don't vote based on my 'suspicion of the day'.
There was no point in voting Ender in day 1 because of his claim and admitally about half of my suspicion on EA is based on them being a team.
No such issues anymore however =)

Yes I have had a mafia role here.

[Twistedspoon]

@TS: I still don't get why you said NE was scummy when you said it was only a pressure vote though.

well at first it truly was. Then reading back I begin to find reasons and evidence why I thought him scummy and that added an extra meaning behind my vote.

[Oso]

..
There is something off between Rhinox, Erratus and Ender. Having a CC for Ender means his period of grace is over.
Unvote
vote:Ender241
..

Not that I disagree completely, I had and have some reservations about Ender BUT, how do you figure that TS's role is a direct counter-claim to Ender? I mean, they are identical but if the post of TS's you pointed out is a correct assumption based on what TS already knew about the set-up(his role). Having 2:1-Shot Cops isn't a real stretch.

I'd like more input on how Ender is automatically more scummy than TS because if you disregard their claims, both don't look very good but TS wins in the "scummiest" category hands down.

Point being, if you give TS a pass based on role alone, then you pretty much have to do the same with ender. Their roles are automatically mutually exclusive.

Also:@Maxous.

"There is something off between Rhinox, Erratus and Ender."

Gut? Or do you have references you can use to at least give us an idea of why you think the interactions between the three are off.

[Maxous]

What reasons?
You have'nt said them yet.

Also, TS - do you beleive Ender's cop claim?

[Oso]

Correction edit:

Point being, if you give TS a pass based on role alone, then you pretty much have to do the same with ender. Their roles are automatically mutually exclusive.

should read...

Point being, if you give TS a pass based on role alone, then you pretty much have to do the same with ender. Their roles are

not

automatically mutually exclusive.

[Twistedspoon]

Also, TS - do you beleive Ender's cop claim?

at first I was considering counter-claiming him, but then I realised the role was a rather obscure one for scum to claim, and I realised that there could be 2 of my role.

I mean, We're 1-shot. 2 cops is rather unlikely, but I can see 2-one shot ones.

So yeah, I believe Ender's claim

[Klazam]

Ookay....

TS' claim does line up with his previous posts. Like the one where he says that there's a theme of one shot stuff in the game.

Oso's post about M=W's answer is right. M=W's response was veery good. I'm now back to page one about M=W.

Rhinox does have a good point, but that's worthless now. Sadly.

EA: To be fair, i did lurk for the beginning of the game (mini 1133), same in almost every other game i played that i started. I always find it hard to get started, but once i do i'm generally fine.

I'm gonna look at PS and see what i can find.

I'm really struggling to get in the flow of this game.

[Maxous]

What reasons?
You have'nt said them yet.

This is directed to TS about Neccessary Evil by the way, not directed towards Oso. Oso ninja'ed my post.

Not that I disagree completely, I had and have some reservations about Ender BUT, how do you figure that TS's role is a direct counter-claim to Ender? I mean, they are identical but if the post of TS's you pointed out is a correct assumption based on what TS already knew about the set-up(his role). Having 2:1-Shot Cops isn't a real stretch.

Hmm okay maybe there could be 2 one-shot cops. I don't think so but it's not impossible.
Why I don't beleive Ender's claim?
His continued intention to use his claimed ability on Javert. Ender's entire suspicion of Javert is that he is lying about being a Day-Vig.(unless you count being rude). If I was in his position and did'nt want to waste my one time abilitiy, the obvious protocol I would take is to have Javert use his ability (therefore disproving the

entire reason

for his suspicion) and use the ability on somebody else. Instead he posted this
The fact that thought did'nt come into it, makes me feel Ender does'nt have that ability. Plus a one-shot cop is possibly the safest claim for a mafia to make.

I'd like more input on how Ender is automatically more scummy than TS because if you disregard their claims, both don't look very good but TS wins in the "scummiest" category hands down.

I disagree, I outlined earlier why I though Ender was mafia and since then the only post I can remember from him was his 'I think Prosaurus is scummy but I don't have a reason despite voting for him with a reason
I don't disagree that TS has'nt been the most trustworthy looking but one of the major suspicions about him was his rolefishing (which makes sense considering Ender claimed the same role as him).
And I am less comfortable with the personnel voting TS. His active lurking and not saying much just seem to be what he plays like.(Although I still don't like that vote on Necessary Evil)
I see TS as the lesser of two evils at this stage.

Point being, if you give

TS a pass based on role alone

, then you pretty much have to do the same with ender. Their roles are automatically mutually exclusive.

I am not, it is my disbelief of Ender.

Also:@Maxous.

"There is something off between Rhinox, Erratus and Ender."

Gut? Or do you have references you can use to at least give us an idea of why you think the interactions between the three are off.

In the bottom half of this post I showed why I thought Ender and EA were defending each-other and teamed up on Prosaurus. A one-way defence by town for another palyer, does happen. 2 way defending each-other, is a lot more suspicious. This is combined with EA making excuses for Ender like 'he was frustrated by Javert' and the following quote

Yeah, he thought Javert was bluffing, AFTER HE TOLD JAVERT TO VIG HIM AND JAVERT REFUSED. That is a completely different circumstance that happened well after the point I'm talking about here.

This is just not true (along with the post below it.)
Why is EA explaining all this about Ender in the first place? There was no 'well Ender would have to answer that' from him.

Rhinox calls Ender an "easy target but not neccessarily scum" which is the typical scummy looking townie. But TS is obv scum.

I guess you could call it gut though. Looking back, Rhinox does'nt come across as suspicious as I remembered though. Hmm maybe not so much him then.

Long post is long =_=

[Rhinox]

why? What's wrong with not wanting all our PRs outed?

anyways, I'm a one-shot cop

explains why I questioned Ender about his role I guess. I wanted to check it was the same as mine. I was quite surprised when he claimed one-shot cop

the fact that you basically said you were a PR but didn't want to claim to out another PM, but actually outing yourself anyways and stalling with your actual full claim is what's wrong with what you said.

lol. I don't care what your claim is now. This post is scummy as hell. You're scum and I want you lynched regardless of your claim.

Really? And what is the difference between the response from TS and the response from Ender when he was effectively at L-1?

See my comment to TS above. There's a difference. HUGE difference.

TBH, I wasn't expecting twisted to claim 1-shot cop. I'm going to have to think about this now. Some of his posts make sense with the claim.

unvote

I think its about time we find out for sure if Javert is what he says he is. Ender and TS should be off limits. Anyone else fair game. Daykill go!

[neil1113]

Vote Count #1.5:
Day One

Twistedspoon

(4): Erratus Apathos, Necessary Evil, Farside22, Juls

Necessary Evil

(2): Me=Weird, Twistedspoon

ender241

(1): Maxous

Me=Weird

(1): Klazam

Oso

(0):

Javert

(0):

Erratus Apathos

(0):

Rhinox

(0):

Prosaurus

(0):

Klazam

(0):

Maxous

(0):

Juls

(0):

farside22

(0):

No Lynch

(0):

Not Voting

(5): Ender241, Oso, Javert, Prosaurus, Rhinox

V/LA

(0):

Prodding:

(0):

With

13

alive it takes

7

to lynch.
Deadline for Day One is 12:00am EST on 4/20/2011