Newbie 1081: Showdown in Newbtown (Game Over, Mafia win)

[alnkpa]

And if anyone is opportunistic, it's him[, aln].

I'll let people accuse me of many things, but not of being opportunistic. For that thing I'd like to see a thorough explanation 'cause that is IMHO a very harsh incrimination.
Concerning your case about me being actively lurking: Did you missed my previous explanation?

[chkflip]

Al, is English your first language? No offense intended, just curious.

[alnkpa]

Lol, no it isn't. Is it so bad?

[chkflip]

You haven't said anything I couldn't decipher, so you're good. Far greater than some others I've come across. Where are you from?

[alnkpa]

Do you really think we should clutter up this thread with seemingly unimportant stuff?
And I'm from Germany. But that should be enough for the off-topic stuff I guess.

[chkflip]

You're right, I'm just an insomniac and don't know what I'm doing right now. TO THE GAME!~

Now that Zd has responded to your (and other's) case, do you feel any differently?

Did you take a look at the town-meta I posted? What's your opinion on meta?

What is your opinion of Fatso?

[alnkpa]

I only feel stronger about him being jumpy as he wasn't a great talker all the time and now seems so talkative. For me it's interesting.
I did look at your town-meta. But is it really a meta? It's just analysing my posts, isn't it? Meta is imho more looking at posts from other games which I don't have any yet apparently.
Fatso is a null-tell at the moment for me. Don't have a strong opinion on him anymore.

[chkflip]

I mean Zden's town-meta, which is infact from a different game. Zd is erratic in his post lengths more often than not, it's all about what's happening at the moment. I will note that his larger posts haven't come until he's defending himself. Can't say I know what to make of that.

[Zdenek]

I am thinking about the cases on Fatso and Bulvious, but I still think that they are both town. There are certainly points that can be made against each of them, so I am not discounting the cases entirely. I'll admit that with Fatso it's my gut that says town, but with Bulvious, I think is overall play is pro-town and that his style of play will make it possible to get continuing reads on him.

Bulvious, ignoring h3ll0's activity levels, do you think h3ll0 is playing differently in this game?

My vote was the first one on him, and it ended RVS. I suppose Zdenek's previous statement (or maybe it was Chk?) saying it's harmful to end RVS quickly could imply bad things for me here, but really, I felt like the quicker we used our time to get onto more meaningful votes, the more we would learn before the day ended with (hopefully) a fruitful lynch.

It was chk.

All 4 of these are pretty much a difference of opinion/interpretation.
...
Note that I never said any of those were scum-tells. Just things I found worth writing down.

Then including those points when you are trying to explain why you think that someone is scummy, is an example of bulking up a post with needless ramblings.

I might even say that it appeared as though you were grasping for straws trying to make him others look guilty (or innocent in the case of your supposed town-tells).

town-tells by their nature are weak because scum can fake them, on the other hand there certainly is a case on h3ll0; it's below.

DMSIS is drmyshottyizsik

Since people seem to think that the h3ll0 case is nonexistant, here you go:

Arguing for the sake of arguing:

h3ll0 went on and on about me asking the question about how people would feel about lynching a lurker at the end of the day, and said that it was the same question as the one Bulvious asked:

it is also redundant as the same question has been posted way earlier by Bulvious.

This of course was wrong, and h3ll0 knew it. In fact Bulvious explained to Fatso in particular exacty what his question was asking:

And we both know that of course, but that's not what my question is asking for. It's asking if the deadline were tomorrow and you had the vote that was end-all be-all, what would you pick? I'm not asking you to actually go about that course of action because given the alotted time we have, we are in no rush at the moment.

Why this is scummy: Fatso was just looking for something to complain about in order to be active in the game. He wasn't scum hunting and he wasn't making a genuine attack on anyone. Moreover, not even his complaint was genuine.

Just to be completely clear about h3ll0's BS in this part of the discussion, here was h3ll0's response to Bulvious:

Well, if you put it that way, yeah. I would hammer the lurker.

Here is what he said after I asked my question:

I'm still not sold on a lurker lynch at this point of time, seeing that we still got 11 more days to the deadline (which could be extended). Sitting around and agreeing to the policy lynch does not help progress the game either.

Here is what he said during our argument:

And what difference does that make? People who answered the first question will answer your question in the same exact manner.

Not even he answered the questions in the same manner.

Softly attacking Fatso:

Jumpiness noted. What do you mean you spoke too soon?

Why it is scummy: Scum want to take safe positions, so they will softly attack someone. For instance by pointing out something that they did, but not necessarily calling them scum for it, see how other people react, and then move their vote/attack more aggressively if the conditions seem favorable.

There's the buddying with Bulvious, which has already been talked about.

Why it is scummy: it benefits scum to ingratiate themselves to town because if town's people like them, they won't push for their lynches. However, if Bulvious and h3ll0 have a relationship from a previous game, this might not be as bad as it was before.

As soon as I voted him, he became purely defensive, and immediately attacked me by misrepresenting things that I said.

Lying about his actions:

Oh really, show me where you pointed out that someone was scummy since I voted you outside of RVS.

Er, Sarahfish? Though, yeah. I really need to go do some more scumhunting.

There is not a single reference to Sarahfish in your ISO since my vote on you. Moreover, you have had nothing to say about workdawg.

[Workdawg]

Firstly, I know I promised some thoughts on ST's case against Bulv. I wrote down some notes about the validity of ST's claims in his vote analysis, but they are at home. I will post them later tonight for sure.

@Zd

I disagree that those point are "needless ramblings." They are not definite tells, but they do help establish context and meta for your play, which was relevant to my other points.

As for town tells, I agree.

Your case above actually looks like a case. Bantering back and forth taking little shots here and there makes it hard to follow and easy for things to get lost, especially when you don't explain yourself. You can ask questions, but if it's not obvious what the purpose of the question was, then it's not very helpful to the rest of us (or at least me). Maybe it's just my newbieness.

@Bulv

I don't think there is any real difference between "Some info is bad for town" and "Some info is good for scum."

If something is bad for town, then it is good for scum; and vice versa. I have been giving this some thought, and I can't even really think of an example of "info that is good for scum" that isn't equally good for town. Maybe you can provide an example of what you're trying to get at.

Welcome shotty!

[Fatso]

Aggh! My head is ajumble with long posts...
Workdawg, I happened to see this, and immediately thought of an example.

I don't think there is any real difference between "Some info is bad for town" and "Some info is good for scum."

If the town finds out who the is cop because he claims and says he's found a scum, the info is probably just about the same on the goodness scale for the remaining scum, as they now know who the cop is. (Correct me if I'm wrong here.)
The only person I'm finding distinctly scummy at the moment is h3llo, partially because of Zd's case, and partially my own suspicions. It is a little weird that Zd didn't start posting long things until he came under pressure though.
Bulvious's case on alnkpa was interesting too, but it seemed to me that there was some stuff he labeled "fluff" that I wouldn't consider to be fluffy.

[h3ll0]

Finally, a concise case on me.

Arguing for the sake of arguing:

h3ll0 went on and on about me asking the question about how people would feel about lynching a lurker at the end of the day, and said that it was the same question as the one Bulvious asked:

If you keep pointing out the same thing over and over again, obviously, I would reply in kind.

Not even he answered the questions in the same manner.

Fair enough. But seriously, what was the point in pushing for a lurker lynch when we were almost 2 weeks from deadline?

Softly attacking Fatso:

Why it is scummy: Scum want to take safe positions, so they will softly attack someone. For instance by pointing out something that they did, but not necessarily calling them scum for it, see how other people react, and then move their vote/attack more aggressively if the conditions seem favorable.

What he did was slightly suspicious, but it wasn't anything near scummy behaviour.

As soon as I voted him, he became purely defensive, and immediately attacked me by misrepresenting things that I said.

Your first case on me was based on the process of elimination. As your what you considered town-tells were, to me, weak and illogical, it was therefore necessary for me to question these ideas.

There is not a single reference to Sarahfish in your ISO since my vote on you. Moreover, you have had nothing to say about workdawg.

I missed the "since my vote on you" part.

The only person I'm finding distinctly scummy at the moment is h3llo, partially because of Zd's case, and partially my own suspicions. It is a little weird that Zd didn't start posting long things until he came under pressure though.
Bulvious's case on alnkpa was interesting too, but it seemed to me that there was some stuff he labeled "fluff" that I wouldn't consider to be fluffy.

Fence-sitting much? This is not the first time you have done sometime like this too. If you find me distinctly scummy, why aren't you voting for me? Further more, this is also the second time you mentioned your suspicions for me. And yet, you have not pointed them out.

Unvote, Vote Bulvious

[h3ll0]

EBMODP:

Whoops.

[/b]Unvote, Vote Fatso[/b]

[h3ll0]

And again...

Unvote, Vote Fatso

[Bulvious]

Zd wrote

Bulvious, ignoring h3ll0's activity levels, do you think h3ll0 is playing differently in this game?

Actually, yes, I would say so. In the last game, h3ll0 had a case, maintained and pursued that case, althroughout the game. This game... I don't really see that from him. In fact, I can't think (off the top of my head) of a great case he's made this game, or has attempted to make.


Workdawg, the fact that some info can be good for scum at all is enough to prove my point. It doesn't matter if it's 'equally' good for town, it's still helpful to scum in some way. If someone lists their top scumspects, and one happens to be town, scum can push that wagon as hard as they can, buddying themselves up (in a way that isn't obvious) to the guy who is suspicious of them. If it's a good enough case, it'll end in a town lynch. I can't think of a way a scumscale would be very good at all for town other than for reaffirmation of certain opinions.



@Fatso and Alnpka
Show me the posts I've labeled fluff that aren't.
Show me where he's tried to prod for reactions minus questions that yield very little, show me where he's REALLY sat down and done some hunting. Additionally, show me where it appears that he's been observing the conflicts between players in this game. Also, tell me why his post 18 and 19 contradict each other and why that's OK for town.



h3ll0 posted while I was posting. I have to say, his vote really confused me until I saw the other two posts. h3ll0, I can't see why you voted for Fatso, though. Other than possibly his 'fence sitting' if that's even an accurate accusation, I don't see what makes that so scummy. Some people are conservative with their vote even in D1 (though that's not a great play, he IS new, I've said it multiple times, so is it really a tell for scum or for newness?)

[Bulvious]

BUT, I can't really say that I like that Fatso has seemingly forgotten about a TOWN's most valuable asset. Fatso, you have no FoS out there, and no vote. Why aren't you committed to any case? Why don't you have a case?

[h3ll0]

h3ll0 posted while I was posting. I have to say, his vote really confused me until I saw the other two posts. h3ll0, I can't see why you voted for Fatso, though. Other than possibly his 'fence sitting' if that's even an accurate accusation, I don't see what makes that so scummy.
He makes posts like these #189 and #285 whereby he says some player are scummy, but also town as well.

Some people are conservative with their vote even in D1 (though that's not a great play, he IS new, I've said it multiple times, so is it really a tell for scum or for newness?)

He is conservative with his votes? Like chkflip said, this is inconsistent with his playstyle. He has shown that he is willing to vote for a lurker in multiple situations, yet he isn't able to do so when it comes to a player who is "distinctively scummy".

[h3ll0]

EBMODP:

I really really need to go sleep, and stop posting mess like this...

h3ll0 posted while I was posting. I have to say, his vote really confused me until I saw the other two posts. h3ll0, I can't see why you voted for Fatso, though. Other than possibly his 'fence sitting' if that's even an accurate accusation, I don't see what makes that so scummy.

He makes posts like these #189 and #285 whereby he says some player are scummy, but also town as well.

Some people are conservative with their vote even in D1 (though that's not a great play, he IS new, I've said it multiple times, so is it really a tell for scum or for newness?)

He is conservative with his votes? Like chkflip said, this is inconsistent with his playstyle. He has shown that he is willing to vote for a lurker in multiple situations, yet he isn't able to do so when it comes to a player who is "distinctively scummy".

[Fatso]

Woops, forgot:

Vote: h3llo

That looks OMGUSy now, I know.

[Fatso]

And Bulvious:
Post #1 is not fluff, it's a legit introduction. #5 Is content. #6 is not fluff, it shows he's actually interested in what's going on. #16 Isn't that fluffy. Restating a point, even if everyone knows it, is not always a bad thing to do.
Mind you, I'm not saying I'm discounting the case altogether, but you seem to have slapped "fluff" on a lot of what he's said, even if it isn't that fluffy.

[Antihero]

Vote Count #10

alnkpa - 1 (Bulvious)
Bulvious - 1 (startransmission)
Fatso - 2 (chkflip, h3ll0)
h3ll0 - 2 (Zdenek, Fatso)
Zdenek - 2 (Workdawg, alnkpa)

Not Voting: drmyshottyizsik

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. Deadline is April 12th.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Just read. First few thoughts.
Fatso is not scum unless alnkpa is his partner.
If alnkpa is scum Fatso may or may not be scum.
I suspect Workdawg and alnkpa to be the two scum.
Reasons tomorrow I have to go for today.

[Bulvious]

A legitimate introduction happens to be fluff. No one else felt the need to introduce themselves for a reason. Or if someone else did, it might have been the IC because it tends to be a good idea to establish oneself as an educator while being the IC. This introduction is useless other than establishing himself as new to the forum - which is obvious if he is a newb in a newb game.

#5 was answering a question, it's not original content, it doesn't provide us with insight on his or anyone elses playstyle or actions. It tells us he agrees that lurking is scummy - something most people tend to agree on, here he consents to lynch a lurker. It's input, but it's not useable content you may be right in saying it's not 'fluff' but it certainly isn't the scumhunting he doesn't do while he's town.
#6, just because you're interested doesn't mean you're providing content. This isn't content, it's asking for clarification, which is fine, but it's certainly not content.
#16 Fine, restating a point isn't awful, I never said that, but to me this is still fluff because it's the same he's said before.

Either way, that's not even really a defense for him. He's still not scumhunting, he's still not being town. He's still scummy.

[h3ll0]

Woops, forgot:

Vote: h3llo

That looks OMGUSy now, I know.

And you have still yet to voice out your suspicions of me.

Nor have you said anything on your fence-sitting. Vote still stands.

[Workdawg]

If the town finds out who the is cop because he claims and says he's found a scum, the info is probably just about the same on the goodness scale for the remaining scum, as they now know who the cop is. (Correct me if I'm wrong here.)

I would suggest that's a misplay by town to just straight up claim cop. I'm still new, but normally doesn't the cop want to only claim if there's an EXTREMELY good reason to, to avoid that specific case? As for "scumscale" I'm not sure what that is.

An analysis of Bulvious' votes (as promised):

First to vote for Fatso (Post 14) - For his unwillingness to RVS and being reactive -- ST points out the first, but not the reactivity.
First to vote for h3ll0 (Post 48/49) - For lurking -- ST seems accurate here that Bulv got off Fatso's wagon when it went cold.
Second to vote for Sarahfish (Post 131) - For bad posts, no scumhunting or defense -- ST claims he "rails against SF", but really I can only see a few comments (94) about her. I wouldn't say his vote is unjustified at all, but I wouldn't say he really "railed" her.
First to vote for alnpka (Post 249) - For "reasons he posted earlier, and Zdenek's case" -- This is the only vote I find suspicious, but I've already spoken my mind on that.

My thoughts...

It seems to me that Bulvious just pressures with his vote and when someone stands up to that pressure, he moves to someone else. Overall, I still think his motive is scumhunting. His other posts seem to verify this to me.

Right now, I'm not really sure who our scum is. I intended to do some extra reading tonight, but it's Friday night and Sailor Jerry doesn't seem to want to let me. FWIW, my vote is still on Zd simply because I'm not COMPLETELY convinced he's innocent, and not having my vote on anyone is a waste of my vote.

One thing I have noticed though is that chkflip seems to be really getting on Fatso's case. Most everyone else has said they feel he is newb town, and he's getting back that direction for me again. I don't have a problem with pressuring him at all if you aren't yet convinced, but I have to say that it does seem like chkflip is making it a bit personal. I feel that calling Fatso a retard (or scum... a shitty false dilemma here?) and then a lazy jackass is unacceptable IMO.

This has nothing to do with chkflip's alignment I guess; but come on now... is calling names going to make him slip up?

@Mr Shotty

I am intrigued! I hope it's not based on Sarah's terrible play, but I await your response in any case.