Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[Juls]

I skimmed the happenings since my last post but will compose a more robust post when I have a little more time, but, I am a little confused by the TS claim. The scenarios:

TS-Mafia / Ender-Mafia - unlikely they would cc each other. Lowest probability imo.
TS-Town / Ender-Mafia - possible but unsure of how ender would know or want to claim a "one-shot" cop. Unless all scum have 1 shot roles and they assume the same to be true of town for PRs.
TS-Mafia/ Ender-Town - possible, but still strange. Given that TS has only been playing for a short time I don't think he would cc a "one-shot" cop. I think he would probably just say he was cop.
TS-Town/Ender-Town - probable, but only if I am looking at it with blinders on and ignore every other scummy thing that each of them have said.

No real "pointing a finger" here but just putting my thoughts out to get feedback on. I am curious what others think of the claim. For now I will switch to my second FOS while I process

Unvote, Vote Maxous

Preview edit: @mod - you have M=W voting twice, is this intentional?

No, I hit the "submit" button instead of "preview" by accident.

[Prosaurus]

Also:@Maxous.

"There is something off between Rhinox, Erratus and Ender."

Gut? Or do you have references you can use to at least give us an idea of why you think the interactions between the three are off.

Should probably ask me that as well. EA and Ender defend each other and gang up on me. Then Rhinox defends them. I'd say that's scummy.

[Prosaurus]

@Juls Why vote Maxous? Any reasons you can tell us?

And it's about time I put my vote somewhere: VOTE: Erratus Apathos
Ender has claimed a PR, so we shouldn't lynch him if we think scumteam is EA Ender and Rhinox.
EA was most suspicious otherwise.

[Necessary Evil]

I won't have time to write a full post until tomorrow, so just a couple of thoughts:
a) Javert needs to post ASAP.
-and-
b) TS is just dripping with scum, but his claim fits with his speculation about a one-shot themed game and it looks like we're going to give him at least a night anyway. I wouldn't loose any sleep if he was killed/lynched, but if the rest of you are moving on, I'm fine with that.
UNVOTE: Twistedspoon

[Oso]

..
b) TS is just dripping with scum, but his claim fits with his speculation about a one-shot themed game and it looks like we're going to give him at least a night anyway. I wouldn't loose any sleep if he was killed/lynched, but if the rest of you are moving on, I'm fine with that.
UNVOTE: Twistedspoon

Oddly enough, after going back after TS's claim, I feel better about Ender's claim and TS's claim.

TS's "1-Shot Theme" comment makes more sense now. TS knew his role (if you grant that he is true claiming) and saw Ender's claim and made the assumption that all roles are 1-shots, it even makes his comment that he thought Javert had claimed one shot as well more understandable.

I too will wait on Javert before doing much more of note. 3 claims on D1 is fairly unusual in my experience. That all 3 seem to be PRs...I don't think I have ever seen that happen in a game I have been in before.

[Juls]

@Juls Why vote Maxous? Any reasons you can tell us?

And it's about time I put my vote somewhere: VOTE: Erratus Apathos
Ender has claimed a PR, so we shouldn't lynch him if we think scumteam is EA Ender and Rhinox.
EA was most suspicious otherwise.

See post 273

[Me=Weird]

I really need to take another look at this game tomorrow.
Re: me somehow knowing enders softclaim was 1-shot: I didn't, but whether he was one shot or not didn't really make a difference in my reasoning.
TS's claim certainly fits in with previous comments, so I don't see a reason to disbelieve it.

Ender has claimed a PR, so we shouldn't lynch him if we think scumteam is EA Ender and Rhinox.

Wait, do we think EA, ender, and rhinox are scum? And if we shouldn't lynch him, why is ender included as scum?
Pro is one of my scum reads right now, I've had a busy day, so I'll talk about this tomorrow.

[Prosaurus]

@MW Well I think so, and I think Maxous said it as well. Ender is included because, he might not be scum but I think he is. If he isn't scum, then he's a 1-shot cop. I'd rather vote for someone who either hasn't claimed or claimed VT than someone who claimed a PR.

[Erratus Apathos]

I don't care about TS's claim, he's still scum. "But his claim is consistent with this one remark he said earlier on about one-shots!" So? It's not like scum are incapable of being consistent, and I see no reason for this instance to be any different. My vote stays where it is.

@EA You seem to be defending Ender alot. Mind to post your main reasons you think he's town?

Cause his angry reaction to Javert's claim is totally legitimate, and it's not how scum would react to that claim.

And why not?

Scum would know the claim is true, and would want to steer the dayvig away from him and his buddies rather than challenge it and risk being vigged.

Why is EA explaining all this about Ender in the first place? There was no 'well Ender would have to answer that' from him.

I don't need any more answers from him, I already have enough from him for a solid town read. And in any event, it's not like I've answered anything for him.

[Javert]

1.)

I'm inclined to believe ender's claim. The "I'll find out tonight" fit's in perfectly with cop planning to investigate Javert.

This post took me a little aback coming from a player who has been on-site for over a year. I don’t think ender241’s “crumb” means two beans, precisely because he only crumbed when he was being put under pressure, as opposed to crumbing from the very beginning of the game. Furthermore, his “crumb” at the time was extremely generic, and certainly does not suggest “1-Shot Cop.”

If ender241 is scum, I would look at Me=Weird first and foremost. That said, I am not sure vice-versa applies; this could also be scum trying to get on the good side of a claimed 1-Shot Cop. Either way, it is a strike against Me=Weird.

2.)

My vote on Javert is utterly redundant anyways now that his wagon is gone and he's claimed :/

This post suggests that when Twistedspoon votes, it is ultimately to get people to claim, and not – say – because he believes that player is scum. Strike.

3.)

Out of all the things in this game, you think what you perceive to be role-fishing to be the scummiest stuff in the game? Look, I can think of at least one reason for asking that off the top of my head. A doctor trying to figure out whether to protect a vig, which if not 1-shot, would be the best thing to do, or a 1-shot cop, when a 1-shot vig has already used his bullet.

I do not like this post. This is a pretty bad justification for asking me the number of shots in my role.

4.)

Why the pressure for a claim? Wasn't the soft claim pretty self explanatory?
Now you have the unvote, while thinking. What were you expecting with this exercise?

Tempted to just post my avatar as a response, here.

The soft-claim was not self-explanatory. What was self-explanatory was that he was going to claim some sort of power role. Which I imagine scum would have been perfectly happy accepting; scum don’t need to know

what

role everybody has, but only

who

has a role. Since it was obvious that ender241 was either a power role or scum after that post (i.e. scum know all they need to know), the Town is hence better off forcing him to clarify.

Curiously, though, Scum have a habit of fake-claiming power, and also soft-claiming to see if it might get people to get off their back once the water starts boiling in their tiny pot. It is

far

more common for scum to try to survive off of a vague crumb than Townspeople; that’s because a vague crumb allows scum to claim different things at different points of the game. ender241’s crumb could have turned into quite a few claims.

I am actually a bit surprised, farside22, that you would even write up Post 266. Unless we have astronomically stupid (or unobservant) scum in this game, I can guarantee that if ender241 is Town, every single scum in this game put a checkmark by ender241’s name when he said “either way, I will find out tonight.” In fact, scum are much more likely to file that information away and hope protective roles do not take notice of such soft-claims; scum are not about to publically talk about it when they can just as easily mention it during nighttalk.

FoS: farside22

. Experience cuts against you here. I find it hard to believe you are really propounding the whole “it is antitown to point out an obvious breadcrumb and force a clarification.”

5.)

Although I think it is possible for a Mini Normal game to have two 1-Shot Cops, it does not strike me as very plausible that a Town would just happen to two 1-Shot Cops would just happen to be the two largest wagons on Day One.

Right now, my pool of players to be vigged are {ender241, Twistedspoon, Me=Weird}.

[Klazam]

Javert- so you believe that both ender and twisted is fakeclaiming?

[Javert]

It's possible, but I don't actively believe it at this point.

[Klazam]

If not both, then why are both in your vigpool?

[Javert]

If not both, then why are both in your vigpool?

Try rethinking that question.

[ender241]

Can somebody give me a good reason why Twisted is scum? I think he's town to be honest.

[Klazam]

Javert: Fair enough.

Let me be on record saying that i believe all three claims (D-Vig, and cops) that has been made today.

Also:

unvote vote Prosaurus

I no longer feel sure that M=W is scum. PS is the next most scummiest in my eyes.

[Twistedspoon]

2.)

My vote on Javert is utterly redundant anyways now that his wagon is gone and he's claimed :/

This post suggests that when Twistedspoon votes, it is ultimately to get people to claim, and not – say – because he believes that player is scum. Strike.

you misunderstand

I took my vote off of you because you had claimed vig. No town in their right mind would lynch a claimed dayvig, especially when it can be proven, as in your case

that's why my vote was worthless on you

[farside22]

Javert: Fair enough.

Let me be on record saying that i believe all three claims (D-Vig, and cops) that has been made today.

Also:

unvote vote Prosaurus

I no longer feel sure that M=W is scum. PS is the next most scummiest in my eyes.

Reasons????

FoS: farside22. Experience cuts against you here. I find it hard to believe you are really propounding the whole “it is antitown to point out an obvious breadcrumb and force a clarification.”

I don't ever agree with outting a PR. If I see something in thread I'm not going to point it out as I feel that information helps the scum team more then town.
I've hid information on PR's many times seeing as scum most of the time miss underling hints or worry about a doctor in the game.
But each claim, if there is a doctor, helps narrow down the field for the scum.

EA: How is ender's play any better then TS? Would you put them under the same category with lack of context?

Honestly I can't see 2 one shot cops. I've never heard of it. Juls broken down the possibilities, but I wonder do you (Juls) have a view on any one of those possibilities between the two players?

[Erratus Apathos]

EA: How is ender's play any better then TS? Would you put them under the same category with lack of context?

When Ender voted Javert he was clearly aiming to actually get Javert lynched. TS just left his vote on Javert for a long time for no apparent reason.

[Me=Weird]

@Javert 309: 1. In addition, ender had done what I saw to be scummy, but I'd also had a gut town feel from his posts. I thought he acted scummier than the town feel, so I attacked him anyway. Plus, he seemed pretty eager to claim, the way a PR would.

I do not like this post. This is a pretty bad justification for asking me the number of shots in my role.

What do you want me to do about that?
[quote="PS "Tell me what to do!" #1"]In the RVS, this is scummy how? I'm pretty new, please explain this.[/quote]
Here, PS is playing the newbie card, asking for people to give opinions instead of actually giving one.
[quote="PS "Tell me what to do" #2"]I did pretty much skim. But that was of TS's posts I read, the rest were pretty much fluff, so I was wondering how he seemed so scummy to some people.[/quote]
Hint: Content is good. Fluff is not content. Fluff is scummy.
[quote="PS "Tell me what to do" #3"]PS: Just did a proper read. But, due to my lack of experience/skill, I'm lacking reads on anyone.
About Oso, I don't see anything he did as scummy. Answering questions before they're asked is in no way scummy to me, it just saves posts really.[/quote]
No opinions. It's a lot easier for town to have suspicions than scum, because scum would have to fake it. Second line just looks like filler to me.

@Juls I wouldn't vote. Why vote for some random person, possibly getting them lynched, without a reason?

Because of course, we wouldn't lynch that person. We do it until there's a reaction, causing us to exit RVS.

And is there a reason why I should care about being Day Killed? I don't see one.

…Because you'd be dead? It would reduce the numbers of your faction? This could be scum trying not to get killed by acting like they wouldn't care.

So are you a cop or scum?

You have no idea how much I face-palmed when I first read this. Why on earth would you say this? It just points it out to any scum who might not have noticed, and if he hadn't had to claim, this would be awful. I read that as more of, "is this untrue, or are you a PR I can kill?"

I haven't actually. I have more of a life than being on Mafia 24/7.

Hint: Read posts. Active lurking is way different from not posting.

Because when he did it, he pretty much said he'd shoot whoever it was that put him at L-1 (Or hammered him if he can shoot in twilight.) So people wouldn't vote to avoid being Day Killed.

He said nothing of the sort. If that were why he claimed, then why did he do it with such little suspicions on him?

Heh. You come back right when we're thinking of day vigging you. Perfect timing?

Opportunistic scum? IIRC, he just got prodded.

@Juls Why vote Maxous? Any reasons you can tell us?
…
EA was most suspicious otherwise.

Did you read your own post? In the same one where you ask for reasoning, you make a vote without reasoning.
With this in addition to gut,

Unvote, Vote: Prosaurus

[Prosaurus]

I don't care about TS's claim, he's still scum. "But his claim is consistent with this one remark he said earlier on about one-shots!" So? It's not like scum are incapable of being consistent, and I see no reason for this instance to be any different. My vote stays where it is.

@EA You seem to be defending Ender alot. Mind to post your main reasons you think he's town?

Cause his angry reaction to Javert's claim is totally legitimate, and it's not how scum would react to that claim.

And why not?

Scum would know the claim is true, and would want to steer the dayvig away from him and his buddies rather than challenge it and risk being vigged.

Actually, risking being dayvigged

would

steer the day vig away from them and their buddies.

@Javert 309: 1. In addition, ender had done what I saw to be scummy, but I'd also had a gut town feel from his posts. I thought he acted scummier than the town feel, so I attacked him anyway. Plus, he seemed pretty eager to claim, the way a PR would.

I do not like this post. This is a pretty bad justification for asking me the number of shots in my role.

What do you want me to do about that?
[quote="PS "Tell me what to do!" #1"]In the RVS, this is scummy how? I'm pretty new, please explain this.

Here, PS is playing the newbie card, asking for people to give opinions instead of actually giving one.[/quote]
Wondering how on earth something is scummy makes me scummy?

[quote="PS "Tell me what to do" #2"]I did pretty much skim. But that was of TS's posts I read, the rest were pretty much fluff, so I was wondering how he seemed so scummy to some people.

Hint: Content is good. Fluff is not content. Fluff is scummy.[/quote]
Not always.

[quote="PS "Tell me what to do" #3"]PS: Just did a proper read. But, due to my lack of experience/skill, I'm lacking reads on anyone.
About Oso, I don't see anything he did as scummy. Answering questions before they're asked is in no way scummy to me, it just saves posts really.

No opinions. It's a lot easier for town to have suspicions than scum, because scum would have to fake it. Second line just looks like filler to me.[/quote]
Well sorree Mr "I have so much experience"/

@Juls I wouldn't vote. Why vote for some random person, possibly getting them lynched, without a reason?

Because of course, we wouldn't lynch that person. We do it until there's a reaction, causing us to exit RVS.

I don't think this was in RVS.

And is there a reason why I should care about being Day Killed? I don't see one.

…Because you'd be dead? It would reduce the numbers of your faction? This could be scum trying not to get killed by acting like they wouldn't care.

In my only two other games, people who cared about being killed were lynched beacause "Only scum care about surviving"

So are you a cop or scum?

You have no idea how much I face-palmed when I first read this. Why on earth would you say this? It just points it out to any scum who might not have noticed, and if he hadn't had to claim, this would be awful. I read that as more of, "is this untrue, or are you a PR I can kill?"

You're saying scum are dumber than me? And I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who said that.

I haven't actually. I have more of a life than being on Mafia 24/7.

Hint: Read posts. Active lurking is way different from not posting.

I didn't know that still someone (NE I think) told me that.

Because when he did it, he pretty much said he'd shoot whoever it was that put him at L-1 (Or hammered him if he can shoot in twilight.) So people wouldn't vote to avoid being Day Killed.

He said nothing of the sort. If that were why he claimed, then why did he do it with such little suspicions on him?

Well I took it that way.

Heh. You come back right when we're thinking of day vigging you. Perfect timing?

Opportunistic scum? IIRC, he just got prodded.

Yeah... Or he could be scum lurking for as long as possible.

@Juls Why vote Maxous? Any reasons you can tell us?
…
EA was most suspicious otherwise.

Did you read your own post? In the same one where you ask for reasoning, you make a vote without reasoning.

Actually I think I put reasoning in an earlier post, but didn't vote.

With this in addition to gut,

Unvote, Vote: Prosaurus

Yeah...

[Me=Weird]

Wondering how on earth something is scummy makes me scummy?

Except that it doesn't look like that so much as wondering what the popular opinion is.

Not always.

When isn't it? Fluff is posting nothing relevant, which is taking up space, which is trying to make your post seem bigger and more important.

I don't think this was in RVS.

So it wasn't. It meant that you would rather no-lynch, and, depending on whether it's LyLo, lose the game.

In my only two other games, people who cared about being killed were lynched beacause "Only scum care about surviving"

So you're saying "In other games, people who cared about dying got lynched, so I'm going to act like I don't care, so I don't get lynched"?

You're saying scum are dumber than me? And I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who said that.

Where am I saying that? And whether or not other people said that doesn't make it better. Anyway, you're the only one who said that and got noticed.

I didn't know that still someone (NE I think) told me that.

So read. Think. "Why would he say active if he's accusing me of lurking? Maybe he's saying something else!"

Well I took it that way.

What did he say that possibly could have given you that impression?

Yeah... Or he could be scum lurking for as long as possible.

So I looked, and it wasn't him who was prodded. He'd last posted only a day ago. That's not exactly "as long as possible".

Actually I think I put reasoning in an earlier post, but didn't vote.

Where? And even if you did, so did farside.
Emotional reaction noted. Happy with my vote.

[Maxous]

See my comment to TS above. There's a difference. HUGE difference.

Do you mean this comment?
I don't get it :/

@Javert 309: 1. In addition, ender had done what I saw to be scummy, but

I'd also had a gut town feel from his posts.

I thought he acted scummier than the town feel, so I attacked him anyway. Plus, he seemed pretty eager to claim, the way a PR would.

*Reading back

I can definitely see ender scum, I know others have said this, but I'm re-stating it anyway.
......

Unvote, Vote: ender241

Post 146
Am I missing something here?

Unvote, Vote: Prosaurus

What about Neccesary Evil?
Is he still a scum read to you or have you dropped that?

[Prosaurus]

Wondering how on earth something is scummy makes me scummy?

Except that it doesn't look like that so much as wondering what the popular opinion is.

*Sigh*

Not always.

When isn't it? Fluff is posting nothing relevant, which is taking up space, which is trying to make your post seem bigger and more important.

Is it now? I think I can tell the difference between an important post and fluff.

I don't think this was in RVS.

So it wasn't. It meant that you would rather no-lynch, and, depending on whether it's LyLo, lose the game.

If we were in LyLo, I'd have enough evidence to choose someone.

In my only two other games, people who cared about being killed were lynched beacause "Only scum care about surviving"

So you're saying "In other games, people who cared about dying got lynched, so I'm going to act like I don't care, so I don't get lynched"?

Yes, but without the acting. Seriously, if I said I didn't want to die because I'd lose, you'd think I was scum. EA seems to think the exact opposite to you on this matter.

You're saying scum are dumber than me? And I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who said that.

Where am I saying that? And whether or not other people said that doesn't make it better. Anyway, you're the only one who said that and got noticed.

Well if I point it out to (Dumb) scum who didn't notice... and of course only the easiest target's going to be noticed, and of course no one else is suspicious because you didn't notice. Suuuure.

I didn't know that still someone (NE I think) told me that.

So read. Think. "Why would he say active if he's accusing me of lurking? Maybe he's saying something else!"

I do hate oxymorons, don't you?

Well I took it that way.

What did he say that possibly could have given you that impression?

That "I WILL shoot before I'm lynched, and I don't like people who lynch me" attitude.

Yeah... Or he could be scum lurking for as long as possible.

So I looked, and it wasn't him who was prodded. He'd last posted only a day ago. That's not exactly "as long as possible".

We ARE talking about Klaz, right?

Actually I think I put reasoning in an earlier post, but didn't vote.

Where? And even if you did, so did farside.

Post 301, right before the vote.What did farside post, and where?

Emotional reaction noted. Happy with my vote.

What emotional reaction?
It sounds like you should talk to EA, he seems to think the exact opposite to you.

[farside22]

EA: Why are you ignoring Klaz who is pretty much doing next to nothing when it comes his reasoning? I see you mentioned this with Pro.
I see Pro at least going thru what everyone is saying and replying the the case against him.
Klaz on the other hand I feel. His reason's for voting for Pro was for role fishing but he doesn't say anything about TS who was doing the same thing. I have to wonder when people leave out those who when you look at their post and doesn't comment on them.

Also when he looks into TS he states the following:

I'm ambivalent on TS. Null for now.

vote Me=Weird

I really don't get this at all.

Vote: Klazam

@Oso: I can ask you the same. How did you get null read from TS, what changed your mind on him when you were willing to put him at L-1?