Newbie 1081: Showdown in Newbtown (Game Over, Mafia win)

[alnkpa]

Zdeneks case

@chkflip: Well, I see what you are going for concerning Zdeneks meta. I wouldn't have such a strong opinion on him if he just stayed with his short answers. I'd be a little concerned about it but your meta would render it virtually void. But seeing how he is reacting now it gets me really thinking about it. Zdenek, what did you make changing your style of posts?

Those things against me

A legitimate introduction happens to be fluff. No one else felt the need to introduce themselves for a reason. Or if someone else did, it might have been the IC because it tends to be a good idea to establish oneself as an educator while being the IC. This introduction is useless other than establishing himself as new to the forum - which is obvious if he is a newb in a newb game.

Now you are just making a fool of yourself. Do you really mark an effort to be nice and to get a good ambiance as scum? I don't know what someone else would say about it but to me it seems ridiculous.
I suppose that all of you can make your own opinions so I'm suggesting that you read my ISO rather than trust Bulvious and his hyperbolical observations.
Btw, about me not scumhunting: What do you want me to do? I'm posing questions and waiting for an answer. I don't know what you consider scumhunting but I imho do it.

[Bulvious]

A fool of myself? Ad-hom isn't going to make me incorrect, alnpka, I'm sorry, that's not quite how this game works.

We can PRETEND my case is around you making an intro. I never had a problem with that, it's just not content and I pointed that out, so of course, if you think THAT is what I'm saying, it is quite ridiculous. But it's not.
Yes, you all can, feel free, I feel like I can back my observations up quite well. I don't feel like he's made any great contribution to the game. In fact, this most recent post is showing me that he not only can't defend himself properly because he IS scum, but that he takes it quite personally that he is. It's the exact result of pressure I would expect from scum. 0 defense, lots of ad-hom, and then denial. Quite a weak defense if I do say so myself.
Now, his scumhunting?

He JUST said he has no new information on scum other than Fatso. And THEN he contradicts his own words and says he's been looking at someone else previously. Clearly not true. He hasn't been scumhunting. He hasn't been fishing for reactions, pressuring, or even asking questions beyond what obvious questions one might ask, like for clarification. NONE of his questions tell me he's trying to look for scum, none of his questions lead me to believe he's even pondering the idea of "Who am I looking for?" No, they all seem to just be filler meant to appear as though he's doing something this game. Yes, scum WOULD go out of their way to be nice, because a nice person is usually not a suspicious person. That's not quite what I was saying to begin with, but you've made quite a good point, Alnpka.


Between your lack of hunting, your contradictions, your lack of defense, and then your weak defense when there is one, you must be scum.

[alnkpa]

Concerning Fatso's question to me:
Yes indeed you are still number one on my personal 'may-be-scum-list' although someone else got my attention too.

I clearly said I'm looking at someone else too.

[alnkpa]

Sry for double post.
I did not intend to be ad hominem. I only meant that you couldn't be serious arguing about the scum-ness of my introduction.

[Bulvious]

Well you're correct, I never said your introduction was scummy. I merely said it wasn't necessary, it didn't have any REAL input other than to establish that you were new - it didn't even go as far as to include RVS. You're still not defending yourself by the way. Linking me to a post I've read before and saying "Here's my defense" isn't good enough when it explains so little

[Bulvious]

Err, not true,

it did include RVS

. You voted for Zdenek in your RVS, I had forgotten, I apologize.

Still, the introduction part wasn't very valuable and I'm not going to argue that it's scummy, I'm merely arguing that the total effort of your posts to attempt to scumhunt amounts to nill and THAT is scummy.

[Fatso]

Either way, that's not even really a defense for him. He's still not scumhunting, he's still not being town. He's still scummy.

It wasn't meant to be a defense. I just didn't think some of the things you said were scummy.

And you have still yet to voice out your suspicions of me.

Nor have you said anything on your fence-sitting. Vote still stands.

Could you define "fence-sitting" for me? I've heard it before, but I'm not really sure what it means.
I'll voice my suspicions in a while, I only have a minute here right now.

Fatso is not scum unless alnkpa is his partner.
If alnkpa is scum Fatso may or may not be scum.

Why do you say alnkpa would be my partner if I were scum? If you really think alnkpa is so scummy, why not vote for him?

[Fatso]

My suspicions of you mainly have to do with Zd's part in his case in reference to you wanting/not wanting to lynch a lurker. I'm not finding at quite as scummy as I did yesterday for some reason, though. I need to look back again.

[alnkpa]

Well, I'd like to quote those of my posts that were in my eyes scumhunting and hopefully we can work it out. I'd like to excuse already for the length of this post.
First, I agree that it took me a time to get in the game.
Here's my 4th post:

On the other hand, I wouldn't be to centered on Fatso only.

I certainly agree that sitting back and coasting through the RVS / RQS is bad news, since less input means less information we have to go on,

Why didn't you vote then? Until the end of RVS you didn't say one word. As startransmission phrased it 'flying under the radar'.

lynchking did almost the same but then hopped on the wagon for Fatso without any further explanation at first. Could you please explain that because I personally think RVS was over at that time.

I both asked and pressured BS and lynchking. Do you need further explanation?

While agreeing to your aversion against quick-lynching, where did he say that?

Here I was asking someone for clarification. But it was a try to pressure on him/her (sorry, read in ISO so I don't know whom) as they could've been plain lying as well.

True, although I personally think that you over-interpret it a little bit. Maybe he meant that with info we allotted over the course of this day to the next we may be able to have a clearer understanding of what was going on today. (Hopefully my crazy thoughts weren't to confusing for you as I see that the preceding sentence is a little bit confusing)

Not as scumhunting as a regular question but nevertheless in anticipation of a response.

Well Fatso, until now I didn't have you on my personal scum list, but now as you being quite sensitive about some accusations made against you I do. Although you were rather talkative the whole game you now seem to exaggerate. So many consecutive posts seem rather scummy to me. Why did you need to have 3 posts in a row to answer some questions?
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fatso

Zdenek, could you please consider reasoning your votes as such seemingly random voting seems rather scummy to me.

Pressuring Fatso as well as posing a question to Zdenek.

My 9th post, that I don't want to quote as this post is already far too long: I take this as a expansion of my post before.

Post 12: Still pressuring on Fatso as well as a explanation to your accusations.

Post 14: Pressuring on Zdenek with post 15 expanding it.

Post 16: Nothing except scumhunting.

Post 17: Posing questions to chkflip and workdawg.

Post 18: Pressuring Zdenek in lieu with the following posts (I already said sorry about them).

Post 24: Getting chkflip back on track.

Post 26: Still pressuring on Zdenek. Still no answer btw.

I skipped about 10 posts that were either introduction or had something to do with my scumhunting posts. Any questions?

[alnkpa]

EBWODP: So in my eyes it's way more than 8 posts with "merely scumhunting".

[Antihero]

Vote Count #11

alnkpa - 1 (Bulvious)
Bulvious - 1 (startransmission)
Fatso - 2 (chkflip, h3ll0)
h3ll0 - 2 (Zdenek, Fatso)
Zdenek - 2 (Workdawg, alnkpa)

Not Voting: drmyshottyizsik

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. Deadline is April 12th.

[Zdenek]

But seriously, what was the point in pushing for a lurker lynch when we were almost 2 weeks from deadline?

I've already explained this, and now you are scummily trying to muddy the waters with pointless questions.

What he did was slightly suspicious, but it wasn't anything near scummy behaviour.

It was suspicious, but not scummy, as if there is some other sort of suspicious behaviour?

Your first case on me was based on the process of elimination. As your what you considered town-tells were, to me, weak and illogical, it was therefore necessary for me to question these ideas.

and stop scum hunting?

Actually, yes, I would say so. In the last game, h3ll0 had a case, maintained and pursued that case, althroughout the game. This game... I don't really see that from him. In fact, I can't think (off the top of my head) of a great case he's made this game, or has attempted to make.

Good, then let's lynch him.

I'd like to hear more from Shotty.

FWIW, my vote is still on Zd simply because I'm not COMPLETELY convinced he's innocent, and not having my vote on anyone is a waste of my vote.

You have no other suspects? You disagree with all the other cases that have been presented?

Zdenek, what did you make changing your style of posts

I don't think that their style changed. They got longer, but that is only because there was more to say as the day went on. Also many people were asking me to explain myself more, so I did.

Post 26: Still pressuring on Zdenek. Still no answer btw.

I hadn't posted in between your previous post and this one, and your accusing me of ignoring your question?

[Workdawg]

@Zd

Sadly, I haven't had enough time to really thoroughly read the most recent cases. I've had a rough couple days at work with my work PC getting a virus, so I haven't been able to keep up quite as well. I have read everything, but not as thoroughly as I'd like to. Last night, as I said, I drank too much to give the cases a fair analysis, and I'm also quite busy the rest of the weekend. I should be able to devote a couple hours to the game tomorrow night though, so I will do my best to present some more thoughts then.

I guess for now I'll give you some of my basic thoughts...
-chkflip's case against Fatso seems, appropriate... as he hasn't been subjected to that thorough of a case yet. I still think he's holding up okay and his responses seem genuine to me. I already mentioned the personal attacks...
-bulvious' case agaisnt alnpka. I agree that alnpka has been flying under the radar for most of the game. He posts fairly short posts, but I have to take a closer look a the context of the posts Bulvious to really determine how I feel about it. Assuming Bulvious is correct that aln has only made a handful of useful posts, then taking a closer look at him is definitely warranted.
h3ll0/Zd - You finally put your case against him together, and it makes a lot more sense. Maybe that's just what I'm used to from my last game, but it's a lot easier to follow when it's all in one post, clearly explained. I will definitely take a closer look at this.

I'm not used to the short quips flying back and forth and it's making things a bit more challenging to follow.

[Bulvious]

Well, I'd like to quote those of my posts that were in my eyes scumhunting and hopefully we can work it out. I'd like to excuse already for the length of this post.
First, I agree that it took me a time to get in the game.
Here's my 4th post:

On the other hand, I wouldn't be to centered on Fatso only.

I certainly agree that sitting back and coasting through the RVS / RQS is bad news, since less input means less information we have to go on,

Why didn't you vote then? Until the end of RVS you didn't say one word. As startransmission phrased it 'flying under the radar'.

lynchking did almost the same but then hopped on the wagon for Fatso without any further explanation at first. Could you please explain that because I personally think RVS was over at that time.

I both asked and pressured BS and lynchking. Do you need further explanation?

While agreeing to your aversion against quick-lynching, where did he say that?

Here I was asking someone for clarification. But it was a try to pressure on him/her (sorry, read in ISO so I don't know whom) as they could've been plain lying as well.

True, although I personally think that you over-interpret it a little bit. Maybe he meant that with info we allotted over the course of this day to the next we may be able to have a clearer understanding of what was going on today. (Hopefully my crazy thoughts weren't to confusing for you as I see that the preceding sentence is a little bit confusing)

Not as scumhunting as a regular question but nevertheless in anticipation of a response.

Well Fatso, until now I didn't have you on my personal scum list, but now as you being quite sensitive about some accusations made against you I do. Although you were rather talkative the whole game you now seem to exaggerate. So many consecutive posts seem rather scummy to me. Why did you need to have 3 posts in a row to answer some questions?
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fatso

Zdenek, could you please consider reasoning your votes as such seemingly random voting seems rather scummy to me.

Pressuring Fatso as well as posing a question to Zdenek.

My 9th post, that I don't want to quote as this post is already far too long: I take this as a expansion of my post before.

Post 12: Still pressuring on Fatso as well as a explanation to your accusations.

Post 14: Pressuring on Zdenek with post 15 expanding it.

Post 16: Nothing except scumhunting.

Post 17: Posing questions to chkflip and workdawg.

Post 18: Pressuring Zdenek in lieu with the following posts (I already said sorry about them).

Post 24: Getting chkflip back on track.

Post 26: Still pressuring on Zdenek. Still no answer btw.

I skipped about 10 posts that were either introduction or had something to do with my scumhunting posts. Any questions?

In your post #4 I stated you made observation. Your questions were hardly pressuring at all – your vote wasn't placed on either of those you were questioning. While that's not necessary, clearly if you think these are tells, you would prefer to move your vote to them from your RVS, which I don't believe you did.
Your 'hunt' was made even more moot by the fact that both of them were pretty much nonexistent throughout the game.
How did this post help us? It didn't.

Honestly, the clarification hardly seemed like pressure at all, and the overall input to the game with this post amounts to nill.

The next quote isn't even a question, and it certainly isn't scumhunting. You're making a statement – not identifying a tell, or trying to get someone to slip.

Your pressure on Fatso was... Well... Unwarranted. You wanted to pressure him for making multiple posts. That's laughable. That means nothing. Your question to Zdenek was something that didn't need asking, and while it's true that he should provide reasoning, you fail to identify where he didn't and why that was scummy in that particular instance. In other words, you don't scumhunt here either.

In post #9, there's a lot more fluff than input, but you DO provide your first bit of useful content. You identify something that could be a tell! Fatso backing off on something, or appearing to do so. Though that's something we've already see him do by this point, you identify a new instance of it. Is it enough to exonerate you? No, no it's not.

In post #12, you make a laughable excuse about why you won't tell us who your second scumspect is – not helpful – and then the next question... Oh god, this is not even pressure. The question rendered no information nor could it have. Clearly the argument about dates was almost entirely moot except for personal pride on being correct at least on my end, and I'm sure his end too. You're JOKING me if you consider this to be scumhunting. And of course, you post a quote to answer my accusation, which... Really doesn't mean a whole lot to me as I've said, didn't help us much at all.

In post #14, you identify something as scummy behavior, though it isn't very applicable. You ask Zdenek to clarify what he means by Star's active lurking – which is a pretty obvious accusation. Were you asking for coaching there or were you actually curious as to why active lurking is bad?

In post #16, you portray THIS one as nothing but scumhunting. Your question to Fatso is NOT scumhunting – i'm sorry but it really isn't. As for h3ll0's question, it's very obvious that no one could agree with Fatso's horrible accusation that most would agree is the same as saying “Well... SOMEONE is scum.” It's silly, and so is your question. Then you ask Zdenek to defend against Fatso. Why? To see him slip? This would be a very good example of you scumhunting if it weren't for the fact it didn't also make you appear as though you were giving him some advice at the same time. Advice that might be considered buddying, but I digress – none of your questions were very helpful.

Post #17 is a given, if they didn't give us any new information they would be bad town. You didn't give them time to do this on their own. This was something they did do and likely would have done without any sort of prodding what-so-ever assuming they weren't scum. This question MIGHT have meant something if it had come later, but it didn't. It was early, unnecessary, and it wasn't scumhunting.

Post #18 and those that follow show us that you're afraid to stand beside your vote. It also seemed like you were backing off with the intent of looking like a stronger town, or at least that's how I view it.

Post #24.... The fact that you even imply this is content tells me you're fishing the deepest wells you possibly can.

Post #26, this isn't pressure, it's asking a question, and it's horribly shadowed by your reactivity to one statement I made in my full case against you. You also state that you scumhunt in your opinion. Yet you also make the claim (oh, perhaps not consciously) that you have only been suspicious of two people this entire game. As a town, you should be suspicious of EVERYONE. This is failure, in my opinion. This post outlines my entire case without it meaning to. Your failure to scumhunt, and then your failure to even understand that you haven't been.

Your eight posts have yielded no valuable input. You haven't made a strong case against anyone. You haven't sheeped a strong case. Your game presence has been non-existent save for the occasional weak question. That's something a noobscum who isn't sure what exactly he SHOULD be doing, would do.

[h3ll0]

I've already explained this, and now you are scummily trying to muddy the waters with pointless questions.

Show me where you answered your reasoning for pushing a lurker lynch. I flipped through your ISO and did not find one.

It was suspicious, but not scummy, as if there is some other sort of suspicious behaviour?

The actions he did could also be attributed to newbieness. Or differences in typing style. Hence I wanted to hear his reply before confirming.

and stop scum hunting?

You're missing the point. How many people actually go about scumhunting when they are focused on defending themselves, which I was clearly doing? I don't find my method of questioning your process of elimination to be faulty.

Good, then let's lynch him.

Fine. Lynch me. Who do you think the rest of the town should look at when I flip town?

@Mod: Deadline extension please? Until when we can at least get a lynch, seeing how the thread speed up.

[h3ll0]

[quote="Fatso"]Could you define "fence-sitting" for me? I've heard it before, but I'm not really sure what it means.[quote]
It means to comment on an issue and take a neutral stance on it instead of siding either side.

[Fatso]

@Mod: I'm very sorry about this, but due to medical reasons I'm going to have to ask that I be replaced.

[chkflip]

UNVOTE: Fatso

I wasn't trying to get

that

personal, again the tard comment was just a rough joke. Sorry if I have offended you.

Calling him a lazy jackass, on the other hand, was because he was double and triple posting instead of copy/pasting his arguments into one post.

I'll tone it down from here on out.

[Bulvious]

Awh, Fatso!

The first person I've ever been sad to see leave a game.

Best wishes, Fat, I hope to see you in a future game when we've both brushed up some.

/endfluffypost

[Antihero]

Hope you get better soon, Fatso. Looking for a replacement.

And yeah, I will be extending the deadline, but that doesn't mean you can slack off though.

EDIT: Kard replaces Fatso.

[Kard]

Hey everyone! Thought I'd pop in really fast to introduce myself, I'm still in the process of reading through all the pages, so I can't offer any insights yet in good judgment. I will definitely post as soon as I finish reading up! =]

[Workdawg]

Fatso, sorry to see you go. Good luck with whatever issue you are having.

Zd wrote

Bulvious, ignoring h3ll0's activity levels, do you think h3ll0 is playing differently in this game?

Actually, yes, I would say so. In the last game, h3ll0 had a case, maintained and pursued that case, althroughout the game. This game... I don't really see that from him. In fact, I can't think (off the top of my head) of a great case he's made this game, or has attempted to make.

I just noticed this little quote from a couple days ago and it seems interesting to me even though no one else has mentioned it. I have to wonder what would make h3ll0 change his playstyle? Can you elaborate on that at all, h3ll0? Was there something specific that didn't work well in your last game that's making you play differently now?

Bulvios' case on alnpka

I'm inclined to agree with Buvlios' analysis here. His post analysis is pretty accurate. Alnpka has been less active than most of us, and his posts usually don't contain any information that really helps. It's his first game though, and I still get a newbie vibe from him, like he doesn't really know how to scumhunt. During the back and forth, alnpka defends himself by quoting posts he's made that contain various questions to people and such. He seems genuine though and I get the impression that he just isn't really sure what he's supposed to be doing.

Zdenek's case on h3ll0

Zdenek's original vote on h3ll0 as due to "buddying" and process of elimination. Reading through their back and forth since then, I noticed that a lot of it is simply bickering of some fairly unimportant things. The semantics of the two questions about lynching a lurker/hammering someone, leaning town vs pro-town, whether scum should call people town or not, etc.

When Zd finally posts his case against h3ll0, his first point looks to be attacking Fatso more than h3ll0. He continues on about how the two questions from before Bulvious felt were redundant, but he answered them differently.

He mentions that h3ll0 "softly attacked" Fatso. Apparently it's a scum tell to mention something someone did, but not call them scum for it? Doesn't he do that a lot himself? He's only pushed for the lynch on h3ll0, and he's pushing pretty hard for what seems like a weak case.

I'm sorry that it seems like I'm being wishy-washy here, but I'm just really having trouble with the format people use for their posts around here.
Having really given the time to this game again, I'm only more reinforced in my thinking that Zd is scum.

Lastly, Welcome Kard!

[Kard]

I apologize for the inconvenience, but I haven't been able to read all of the thread tonight, I will probably finish before I head off to bed, but I won't be able to post my thoughts until tomorrow. Again, I apologize for this.

[Zdenek]

Show me where you answered your reasoning for pushing a lurker lynch. I flipped through your ISO and did not find one.

What are people's opinions of lynching the scummiest lurker?

Personally, I think it could be a good move. We will hopefully hit scum, but no matter what we eliminate someone who the scum won't kill and who we won't be able to get a read on during the game; in both newbie games I've been in so far, town has lost by mislynching a lurker in LYLO.

Who do you think the rest of the town should look at when I flip town?

st, workdawg, alnkpa are pretty good bets.

I just noticed this little quote from a couple days ago and it seems interesting to me even though no one else has mentioned it.

I did.

Apparently it's a scum tell to mention something someone did, but not call them scum for it? Doesn't he do that a lot himself?

No I haven't.

h3ll0's recent frustration finally gives me some sort of reason to think that he could be town, also there seems to be little support for his lynch, so in the time between now and the whenever the new deadline is, I want to try something new.

Unvote
Vote workdawg

Why: we've had two people playing in that slot, sarahfish and workdawg. Sarahfish's play was pathetic, perhaps scummy, and I won't say more about her.

workdawg has been focused on me for literally no reason since his entry into the game and is accusing me of things, an then when I ask him to provide examples of them, he can't. This level of dishonesty is particularly scummy and there is more scum motivation behind it than in h3ll0's cognitive dissonance in his argument with me over the should we lynch a lurker question. As far as someone trying to get their foot in the door of practically every lynch goes, I think he is definitely more guilty of this than everyone else: there is mine, obviously, but also,

Lurkers'

About lynching a lurker (active or not), I tend to agree with this policy,

Bulvious'

I reviewed your ISO and I barely see any mention of Alnpka. You say that he's actively lurking almost a week ago (#153), but don't mention him again. Is that the extent of "[your] reasons posted before"? I don't disagree necessarily disagree with you. He's asked a few decent questions, but he has been one of the less active players for sure. This smells to me like just jumping on Zd coattails.

Fatso's

-chkflip's case against Fatso seems, appropriate...

alnkpa's

I'm inclined to agree with Buvlios' analysis here.

All of these stances have been very wishy-washy, making it possible for him to back down on them and adjust his reads at will.

[h3ll0]

I just noticed this little quote from a couple days ago and it seems interesting to me even though no one else has mentioned it. I have to wonder what would make h3ll0 change his playstyle? Can you elaborate on that at all, h3ll0? Was there something specific that didn't work well in your last game that's making you play differently now?

I'm a very passive player. Even in that game, Newbie 1064, I made a case on the scums only after been nudged by the other players.

UNVOTE: Fatso

I wasn't trying to get

that

personal, again the tard comment was just a rough joke. Sorry if I have offended you.

Calling him a lazy jackass, on the other hand, was because he was double and triple posting instead of copy/pasting his arguments into one post.

I'll tone it down from here on out.

Why the unvote here?