Mini 1141 - Frogs Mafia 2 - GAME, SET, MATCH

[Amrun]

Well, that's good news, at least. Replacements are always to be avoided if possible.

Content, Merensial, and uh ... a lot of people?

[Bella]

Just letting you know I'm still catching up, but I hope to post something tomorrow and will definitely contribute by Monday at the earliest.

*looks at non-existent watch*

Stritly speaking, I did say at the earliest, even if I didn't mean to.

Also, I blame Shanba for making me play LoL with him instead of posting in his game yesterday.

Anyway, now I'm caught up, the two things I was asked to comment on:

Pay attention to nopointscums.

I can definitely see where you're going with a nopoint case. He's been avoiding answering questions, using inaccurate evidence repeatedly to back up his case despite it being pointed out, he's really inflexible and focused too harshly on certain players. and he seems to have been substituting vehemence for a quality case. Not good signs fior his townishness.

iamausername replaces in and immediately comments on his predecessor's scumminess. It's not an infallible tell, and he didn't outright criticize his predecessor, but it's worth noting. In his second post he derides the notion that it's any kind of tell. lol. He seems to be a step up from nopoint in terms of scumhunting, but I really dislike his not claiming at L-1 with an approaching deadline that would leave us little time to find scum if his claim provides reason to not lynch him.

Pay attention to see if you find a link between Truant/Cogito Ergo Sum and Mr. Buddy Lee.

I'm not seeing it - or at least, not in the same way you are. I have a pretty strong town-read on MBL. I don't necessarily agree with his methods - I personally find that looking for partners is best left until after we have a scum flip - but I've seen people use that tactic successfully as town. His reasonings appear solid - in my read through I didn't notice any egrarious errors in his logic, reasoning or the evidnece supporting them, and his thought processes display consideration of the possibility he may not be right, which I tend to find is a more pro-town way of thinking than declaring anything that moves to be definitively scum or not scum. CES I have a less strong read on, but I'd be willing to bet he's town. He's playing in a manner consistent with previous experience of his town play, at least - particularly the "vote without stating reasons" thing that's been leveled against him, I've seen him do that plenty of times as town.

Your buddying accusation seems to come down essentially to CES answering some questions you asked MBL. In my opinion, it's simply a case that CES understood what MBL was saying and was attempting to make people understand and stop misinterpreting what MBL was saying. I don't see that as buddying, I see that as ensuring the town doesn't go off on wild goose-chases.

[Amrun]

Okay, so who are your top scum reads, Bella?

[Amrun]

Also, do you cponsider having few logical fallacie a towntell?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Just letting you know I'm still catching up, but I hope to post something tomorrow and will definitely contribute by Monday at the earliest.

*looks at non-existent watch*

Stritly speaking, I did say at the earliest, even if I didn't mean to.

If we read it strictly, the "I hope" part is a lie, so you lose either way.

[petroleumjelly]

Prodded (boo, hiss). This has been a busy week for me. I have another game I will probably devote my immediate attention to when I have time, but after that I should be able to turn my attention back to this game.

[Bella]

Okay, so who are your top scum reads, Bella?

Currently, iamausername and Apok would be the leading candidates. iam because of the scumminess of his predecessor mentioned above and Apok because of OGML's behavior with the tunnelling and attempting to guide the conversation to focus on certain players to the exclusion of others and such but also for the way he came into the game, helped push the Moz wagon to a conclusion and then jumped on nopoint for pushing for a Moz vig.

Beyond that, I'm not really sure.

Also, do you cponsider having few logical fallacie a towntell?

Without context, I don't consider it any sort of tell. People are fallable. They change their minds. It's not necessarily something that has any bearing on their alignment.

Just letting you know I'm still catching up, but I hope to post something tomorrow and will definitely contribute by Monday at the earliest.

*looks at non-existent watch*

Stritly speaking, I did say at the earliest, even if I didn't mean to.

If we read it strictly, the "I hope" part is a lie, so you lose either way.

Untrue, I genuinely hoped to have contributed sooner.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Just letting you know I'm still catching up, but I hope to post something tomorrow and will definitely contribute by Monday at the earliest.

*looks at non-existent watch*

Stritly speaking, I did say at the earliest, even if I didn't mean to.

If we read it strictly, the "I hope" part is a lie, so you lose either way.

Untrue, I genuinely hoped to have contributed sooner.

I don't dispute that. The point is that if you read "at the earliest" as a mistake (as one should), then "will definitely contribute" is a lie, whereas if you read it strictly, the "I hope" part is a lie, so you don't gain anything from reading it strictly, i.e. I'm just being pedantic.

[Bella]

Go to hell, Wester.

[Amrun]

Sorry for the horrendous phone typoes lately.

So, if logic isn't a towntell, why is that the only reason you give for MBL being town, Bella?

[Meransiel]

I actually think she gave a pretty good reason for that matter, Amrun. Can you deny that MBL's posting, above all possible errors and longy-ness, isn't valid scumhunting, steering discussion, and quite useful? He looks pretty town to me.

But, on the other hand, there are probably three scum and we are generally seriously considering only two people to be scum (Apok and iam, from what I can see), so yeah, any lead is probably worth it. In the meantime, I'd like everyone to post more, so there CAN be more reads (hypocritical thing to say? maybe...). Not that cluttering is a good thing, but...

And yet again, reason eludes me. Right now, I don't know exactly who to vote for, and I have to ask...is there anyone here who thinks his read is solid enough to build up a complete case? Zzzzz...will be waiting for answers, or not...

[Amrun]

I'm not saying he's being illogical. In most, but not all cases, I see his logic. My point is that doesn't mean he's town. Bella just said logic isn't a towntell, but her ONLY reason for MBL being town is that he's logical.

I've said several times that I think he's being long-winded on purpose to obfuscate his point and make it look more impressive than it actually is, shown again by his point-blank refusal to condense it upon request. I also think he's trying to lead the town, but that doesn't make him town either; that's a null. Another scumminess point is the way he tries to undermine the validity of others' play through insults. And, of course, his connection with CES.

But obviously, there's a reason I want CES lynched first. He's far scummier.

[iamausername]

Yeah, I was wrong about Amrun. She's town.

Unvote

VOTE: Apokalyptica

Not that Bella looks any more town than her predecessor, but I have to be realistic here.

Can everyone please stop giving me Claiming For Dummies lectures and trust that I am fully aware of the approaching deadline, and the fact that I am at L-1, and the potential consequences of not claiming at this stage and reached an informed decision that it is not the right time for me to claim right now?

Can everyone who is not voting for either me or Apok give a reasonable explanation for how they can possibly believe anyone else is going to be lynched today?

Can anyone who is saying "my top scumreads are iam and Apok" please commit themselves to one or the other? Specifically, commit yourself to hammering me, because obviously you have no actual intention of bussing Apok here.

Thanks in advance.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Apok

My vote on CES is doing no good.

[iamausername]

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I've said several times that I think he's being long-winded on purpose to obfuscate his point and make it look more impressive than it actually is, shown again by his point-blank refusal to condense it upon request. I also think he's trying to lead the town, but that doesn't make him town either; that's a null.

He's always longwinded. Just look at Oldy mafia if you don't believe me. MBL is tough to read.

[Meransiel]

That I believe. You do overreact to his insults though.

[Meransiel]

By the way, iam, I'm glad you're not giving up to the pressure and claiming. It usually does more bad than good.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Except for the part where he's totes getting lynched.

[Amrun]

I don't have anything against long-windedness in and of itself, but in this case I think it is doing more bad than good -- and I think that's on purpose. Just to be clear.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Its effect is irrelevant. He does it independently of his alignment.

[Amrun]

I doubt he refuses to comply when someone asks him for succint summaries in the way he has, but I will check out his meta overnight.

[Meransiel]

Point taken. Not shared (just to be clear). And even if he IS getting lynched, what's the deal?

a1. If he is VT and claims VT, it would be just as useful as if he didn't say anything. You can't disprove nor prove that
a2. If he is scum and claims VT, same thing.
a3. If he is PR and claims VT, there's a chance nobody will believe him when he would make a honest claim later. Which basically renders investigative roles useless.

b1. If he is VT and claims PR, he will say something inconsistent the next day and get lynched. Or, even worse, somebody could counterclaim, thinking that he is scum. So it's just slowing it down.
b2. If he is scum and claims PR, he will likely escape the lynch. Great job, no?
b3. I don't even have to say why a PR revealing himself under pressure is bad.

So nah, not really relevant.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Way to dismiss the crucial scenario out of hand. B3 is exactly what claiming is about.

[Meransiel]

B3 is useful only if you're not in danger. I.E. when people do not have a reason not to trust you (and yes, the double negative makes sense here, even if it is grammatically incorrect). Plus, night kills exist.