Newbie 1079: Feed the Lynch Mob (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 2.01

Nachomamma8 (1) - Traveller
thil13 (1) - GreyICE

Not Voting (5) - Herodotus, Nachomamma8, pandabear, tarsonisocelot, thil13

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

The deadline is Sunday, May 1, 2011, at 11:59 PM EDT (UTC-4).

[Nachomamma8]

NO I WANTED THAT POST

[Nachomamma8]

Joined : April 12, 2010

!
Happy scumday! It hasn't felt like a year since I've lynched you last

Thank you! (Equinox)

[tarsonisocelot]

Eh, while I don't have any better ideas of my own might as weel put some pressure on thil13.
VOTE: thil13
I'm null on them at present and would like some more activity.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay, I'm having a bit of trouble sleeping, and so I reread the game. I was planning on finishing out those reads, but I think it's more beneficial all around if I just keep them to myself for now. I'll explain why before the day is done. In the meantime...

Eh, while I don't have any better ideas of my own might as weel put some pressure on thil13.
VOTE: thil13
I'm null on them at present and would like some more activity.

Vote: Tars

Probably not going to lynch you with this vote, I just want you to learn something.

Things that came up during my reread:
Icey:
What finally brought you to the Snipe side yesterday? The post before your Snipe vote, you were questioning me because I found both panda and snipe scummy, and the next, you were switching as if you felt the same way. Also, is that town read on panda still translating to today?

You were happy when you saw competing bandwagons. What information did you get from that bandwagon on me that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise?

Traveller:
What is your case on me? Right now, you're having a tendency to point your fingers at experienced players simply because they're experienced. And while you're most likely right with one of them, you have no reasoning behind your voting, and thus no chance to convince anyone else.

What do you mean, "nice spoilers"? Are you complimenting the format, or the content inside of them? If it's the content, what's nice about it?

Why choose me over Hero for scum?

pandabear:
The first time you've mentioned thil13 all game is after Grey voted him, and yet Snipe was your top suspect yesterday. The two have similar lurky playstyles, so why did you find Snipe so interesting yesterday, and thil not?

thil13:
In ISO #15, you talk about being uncertain of who's scum, but still wanting the day to end. Why was it time to end the day if there was more to be learned?

Do you have a top suspect now?

Tars:
Feeling the pressure yet?

[Traveller]

Traveller:
What is your case on me? Right now, you're having a tendency to point your fingers at experienced players simply because they're experienced. And while you're most likely right with one of them, you have no reasoning behind your voting, and thus no chance to convince anyone else.

What do you mean, "nice spoilers"? Are you complimenting the format, or the content inside of them? If it's the content, what's nice about it?

Why choose me over Hero for scum?

Nacho: Firstly, I liked the format of your spoilers; that is, how they were arranged. I'm a PowerPoint guy from way back and like to use bullets and orderly presentation to make my point.

My case on you was:

-

Nachomamma8

: Likes to challenge the questioning and specific statements of others. A bit aggressive - could definitely be scum.

Not picking on you and Hero because you're vets, but going with my "gut instinct". And you're right, there is no reason for anyone else to trust my instincts, especially when any player (including myself) could be lying scum. I appreciate your directness, but I feel that the stereotypical Mafia would want to hide and keep a low profile. That's what many folks would expect, so, what better way to camouflage your scumminess than to earnestly question the motives of others. Again, no definitive proof, just a gut feel. Nothing personal.

However, I had a small revelation this evening. Just before day 1 ended, Hero posted:

We're running low on time. I think that Sn1pe29 is town, but we need to lynch someone before the deadline hits. I'll let Nacho or Grey explain why, but it's strongly accepted by the community that letting a day end without lynching is usually bad, especially on day 1. In this particular example, there's a chance Sn1 is scum, and also, knowing his alignment will help us to figure out the people who are trying to lynch him. So eventually I will place the hammer vote if no other options rise.

Sounds like nice, friendly advice from an experienced player, right? Even offers to have two others corroborate the advice. But that would also be a shrewd move to make sure that a full complement of townies (minus the first night's murder victim) wouldn't have an additional day to try to weed out the scum. Previously, my case against Hero was based on his predecessor, King of Harolds, and I was prepared to back down from it. However, my "Hero"-ic suspicions (pardon the pun) have been rekindled.

For now, I'll keep my vote with you, Nacho. But I may change to Hero at any time. Do you or GreyICE want to comment on Hero's quote above? Willing to listen.

[tarsonisocelot]

Okay, I'm having a bit of trouble sleeping, and so I reread the game. I was planning on finishing out those reads, but I think it's more beneficial all around if I just keep them to myself for now. I'll explain why before the day is done. In the meantime...

Eh, while I don't have any better ideas of my own might as weel put some pressure on thil13.
VOTE: thil13
I'm null on them at present and would like some more activity.

Vote: Tars

Probably not going to lynch you with this vote, I just want you to learn something.


Tars:
Feeling the pressure yet?

No. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn from this either.
1 vote is quite different to more than one vote.

I really do want to hear more from thil13. And if I don't I'm not averse to lynching them. My first game ever town lost because they mistook lurking scum for inactive town.


Question regarding roles: Would either or both a mafia roleblocker or a jailkeeper carry a gun?

[Herodotus]

I just injured my hand and typing is super slow. Sorry. Not requesting replacement at this point, but I might.

Ouch. Hope it gets better soon! (Equinox)

@Traveller: how are townies supposed to root out the scum, if not by aggressive questioning?

@Nacho: I suppose if I'm arguing that the 'fluff' issue is subjective, then you're entitled to see it as fluff. But you're ignoring the forest to see only a tree. Besides, your posts 226 and 227 make your point hypocritical.

It was 4 days before deadline. If you hadn't lurked for so long that you needed to be prodded, we could have had plenty of discussion. In that 4 days, all you made was one doublepost.

What do you think is the significance of "the only other people on my wagon gave no reasoning whatsoever"?

Question regarding roles: Would either or both a mafia roleblocker or a jailkeeper carry a gun?

Are you asking this because it relates to this game? Some other ongoing game?

[Herodotus]

Question regarding roles: Would either or both a mafia roleblocker or a jailkeeper carry a gun?

Are you asking this because it relates to this game? Some other ongoing game?

If it's some other game, consider that this is probably against the rules. Very much so.

[GreyICE]

Things that came up during my reread:
Icey:
What finally brought you to the Snipe side yesterday? The post before your Snipe vote, you were questioning me because I found both panda and snipe scummy, and the next, you were switching as if you felt the same way. Also, is that town read on panda still translating to today?

You were happy when you saw competing bandwagons. What information did you get from that bandwagon on me that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise?

I was questioning because I didn't see Sn1pe and Panda as equally scummy, and I've literally NEVER seen scum/scum competing wagons day 1 in F11. I suppose if you dig back through the thousand newbie games that have been played (or several hundred I guess, with this setup) you might find ONE where both scum were competing wagons on day 1. Maybe.

I switched because I caught a strong town read from Panda, and was not in love with Sn1pe's lurking or play. I kept my vote there when he started to sheep my named town-tells from Panda.

As for what I learned from competing bandwagons - I learned that there was a last second push towards you, after the Panda wagon collapsed. I assumed it was a last-ditch attempt to save a scumbuddy yesterday, but that apparently wasn't the case.

Was it to line up today's lynch? I'm unsure. Regardless, Thil13 does not seem to either particularly care about hunting scum or where his vote is. Newbie? Maybe. I remain unconvinced.

[GreyICE]

We're running low on time. I think that Sn1pe29 is town, but we need to lynch someone before the deadline hits. I'll let Nacho or Grey explain why, but it's strongly accepted by the community that letting a day end without lynching is usually bad, especially on day 1. In this particular example, there's a chance Sn1 is scum, and also, knowing his alignment will help us to figure out the people who are trying to lynch him. So eventually I will place the hammer vote if no other options rise.

Sounds like nice, friendly advice from an experienced player, right? Even offers to have two others corroborate the advice. But that would also be a shrewd move to make sure that a full complement of townies (minus the first night's murder victim) wouldn't have an additional day to try to weed out the scum. Previously, my case against Hero was based on his predecessor, King of Harolds, and I was prepared to back down from it. However, my "Hero"-ic suspicions (pardon the pun) have been rekindled.

For now, I'll keep my vote with you, Nacho. But I may change to Hero at any time. Do you or GreyICE want to comment on Hero's quote above? Willing to listen.

No lynch is mathematically a poor option from a game theory standpoint. It costs you a lynch, as the scum ration is 7:2 at the start. Since one mislynch costs you two town (one lynched, one NKed), it goes 7:2, 5:2, 3:2. Therefore, unless Hero was 100% certain sn1pe was town beyond the smallest shadow of doubt (which he could only be if he was scum) he should hammer, because otherwise it costs us a lynch for no information gained.

Many veterans will deadline hammer for that reason.

King of Harolds was reasonably scummy at the start of yesterday (though I think some of it was overblown for deadline reasons) but Hero hasn't given me a lot of reason to guess that he's scum. And I think I pushed him fairly hard with questions.

[GreyICE]

@Thil13:

Is there anything you want to do with your vote? Anything you find scummy? Any candidates for lynch? Anyone you find town?

@Tars:

I understand the concept of sheeping people you view as 'better players.' Why me instead of Hero or Nacho?

@Hero:

Sorry about the hand! If you feel up to a quicky - whose most likely to be Nacho's partner (since you seem convinced of his scumminess)?

Nacho:

I know from ------- the lurking is a null tell, but I'm underwhelmed with your play in general. I think I see what you're doing with the Tars vote, but who is the scumz? What are they doing?

Also your question to Traveler is from the perspective that he's definitely town. It's most likely true that one of you, me, and hero is scum (I'll provisionally agree that statistics points that way) - but if he were scum, he'd know which one. You're asking him to make a good case. Is your town read on him just that strong? Or was this a slip...

Panda - I have a town read on you, time to make good on it. Scumhunt.

[tarsonisocelot]

Question regarding roles: Would either or both a mafia roleblocker or a jailkeeper carry a gun?

Are you asking this because it relates to this game? Some other ongoing game?

If it's some other game, consider that this is probably against the rules. Very much so.

Okay, I was asking because the list on the wiki was incomplete when I went to check. Didn't realise that asking would be against the rules.
It bears no relevance to this game.

[tarsonisocelot]

@Thil13:

Is there anything you want to do with your vote? Anything you find scummy? Any candidates for lynch? Anyone you find town?

@Tars:

I understand the concept of sheeping people you view as 'better players.' Why me instead of Hero or Nacho?

I actually do find thil13 suspicious. And they still haven't answered the questions I asked them a while back (I asked if they had any reads by now and why they were what they were). Voting for them seemed the logical follow-up.

[Herodotus]

As for what I learned from competing bandwagons - I learned that there was a last second push towards you, after the Panda wagon collapsed. I assumed it was a last-ditch attempt to save a scumbuddy yesterday, but that apparently wasn't the case.

FWIW, if I had been scum with Sn1, I probably wouldn't have tried to save him.
Of course, I did figure that if Sn1 flipped scum, I probably would have been the most likely D2 lynch, but since 1 scum would be gone already, we'd be far enough ahead that it was worth the risk.
I wanted to prevent Sn1 from being lynched becauase I thought he was town. Nacho, I didn't think was town.

@Hero:

Sorry about the hand! If you feel up to a quicky - whose most likely to be Nacho's partner (since you seem convinced of his scumminess)?

I had you or Tars in mind during the night, but you're not a high-likelihood scum. Tarson, I'm going to hold off comment on her for now. But the early comment D2 was odd.
Thil is low probability; he might have taken the opportunity to hammer Sn1 yesterday to stop the Nacho wagon from happening if they were scum together.
Traveller is unlikely given the support for lynching him.
Haven't thought much about panda since I voted Nacho. I probably should have. It's interesting that he was very suspicious of Nacho to the point that I was defending Nacho's play fom panda; until I voted Nacho, then he didn't do much. Haven't read back very far to investigate this.

So, if Nacho is scum, Panda looks worst.

[Herodotus]

Question regarding roles: Would either or both a mafia roleblocker or a jailkeeper carry a gun?

Are you asking this because it relates to this game? Some other ongoing game?

If it's some other game, consider that this is probably against the rules. Very much so.

Okay, I was asking because the list on the wiki was incomplete when I went to check. Didn't realise that asking would be against the rules.
It bears no relevance to this game.

I was hoping you were claiming to be a cop with a guilty result or you were claiming to be a gunsmith in this game.

The issue of other games is that you're almost always not allowed to talk about (or ask questions about) a game anywhere except in the game thread (unless the mod says otherwise) until the game is over.

[tarsonisocelot]

Question regarding roles: Would either or both a mafia roleblocker or a jailkeeper carry a gun?

Are you asking this because it relates to this game? Some other ongoing game?

If it's some other game, consider that this is probably against the rules. Very much so.

Okay, I was asking because the list on the wiki was incomplete when I went to check. Didn't realise that asking would be against the rules.
It bears no relevance to this game.

I was hoping you were claiming to be a cop with a guilty result or you were claiming to be a gunsmith in this game.

The issue of other games is that you're almost always not allowed to talk about (or ask questions about) a game anywhere except in the game thread (unless the mod says otherwise) until the game is over.

I wish I was a cop with a guilty result. or that anyone else was claiming to be one.

[Nachomamma8]

Question regarding roles: Would either or both a mafia roleblocker or a jailkeeper carry a gun?

The moderator of the relevant game would be the person to ask.

I suppose if I'm arguing that the 'fluff' issue is subjective, then you're entitled to see it as fluff. But you're ignoring the forest to see only a tree. Besides, your posts 226 and 227 make your point hypocritical.

A replacement's first posts are their most important. When you're fluffing to make it look like you're doing something as soon as you enter the game to make it look like you're doing more than you are, it's scummy. An offhanded comment that clearly has nothing to do with the game is not.

It was 4 days before deadline. If you hadn't lurked for so long that you needed to be prodded, we could have had plenty of discussion. In that 4 days, all you made was one doublepost.

Yeah, sometimes life comes up. Try to type with your right hand if you need a reminder of that

What do you think is the significance of "the only other people on my wagon gave no reasoning whatsoever"?

If you were town, I'd expect you to be skeptical when two people hopped on, no reasoning, just like that.
Or wonder why the two other voters seemed to ignore your case.

Was it to line up today's lynch? I'm unsure. Regardless, Thil13 does not seem to either particularly care about hunting scum or where his vote is. Newbie? Maybe. I remain unconvinced.

Sounds like Snipe part 2.

I know from ------- the lurking is a null tell, but I'm underwhelmed with your play in general. I think I see what you're doing with the Tars vote, but who is the scumz? What are they doing?

Also your question to Traveler is from the perspective that he's definitely town. It's most likely true that one of you, me, and hero is scum (I'll provisionally agree that statistics points that way) - but if he were scum, he'd know which one. You're asking him to make a good case. Is your town read on him just that strong? Or was this a slip...

Yes, I'm corked at the moment, somewhat because my top suspect is handicapped for the day, but mostly because I'm waiting for something.

Yes, Traveller is definitely town. Statistics don't point that way, he's just plain town.

[GreyICE]

Grrr.

Nacho, who is the scumz? Don't tell me Traveller is town and Thil is sn1pe part 2 (especially when you were voting for Sn1pe yesterday), tell me who you think is scum around here. Tars? Hero? Me? VOTE FOR EM.

The tars vote has done whatever you wanted it to you.

I just wish you'd stop being cryptic and tell us what you're thinking

[Nachomamma8]

Okay, I'm having a bit of trouble sleeping, and so I reread the game. I was planning on finishing out those reads, but I think it's more beneficial all around if I just keep them to myself for now. I'll explain why before the day is done. In the meantime...

Eh, while I don't have any better ideas of my own might as weel put some pressure on thil13.
VOTE: thil13
I'm null on them at present and would like some more activity.

Vote: Tars

Probably not going to lynch you with this vote, I just want you to learn something.


Tars:
Feeling the pressure yet?

No. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn from this either.
1 vote is quite different to more than one vote.

It's not much different if pressure isn't applied properly. And interestingly enough, announcing a vote as a pressure vote takes away all of its power. If you want to get a lurker to talk, don't just vote him, try to get him lynched. It has a much higher probably of getting a result.

Pedit:

Okay, I'm having a bit of trouble sleeping, and so I reread the game. I was planning on finishing out those reads, but I think it's more beneficial all around if I just keep them to myself for now. I'll explain why before the day is done. In the meantime...

Eh, while I don't have any better ideas of my own might as weel put some pressure on thil13.
VOTE: thil13
I'm null on them at present and would like some more activity.

Vote: Tars

Probably not going to lynch you with this vote, I just want you to learn something.


Tars:
Feeling the pressure yet?

No. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn from this either.
1 vote is quite different to more than one vote.

It's not much different if pressure isn't applied properly. And interestingly enough, announcing a vote as a pressure vote takes away all of its power. If you want to get a lurker to talk, don't just vote him, try to get him lynched. It has a much higher probably of getting a result.

Pedit:
The mother steps forward and so the children follow. The mother must let go in order to see her children find their own direction.

[GreyICE]

The scum lurks and waits for us to start a wagon on town then steps forward to join the wagon.

MAKE ME HAPPIER ABOUT MY TOWN READ NACHO

[tarsonisocelot]

Okay, I'm having a bit of trouble sleeping, and so I reread the game. I was planning on finishing out those reads, but I think it's more beneficial all around if I just keep them to myself for now. I'll explain why before the day is done. In the meantime...

Eh, while I don't have any better ideas of my own might as weel put some pressure on thil13.
VOTE: thil13
I'm null on them at present and would like some more activity.

Vote: Tars

Probably not going to lynch you with this vote, I just want you to learn something.


Tars:
Feeling the pressure yet?

No. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn from this either.
1 vote is quite different to more than one vote.

It's not much different if pressure isn't applied properly. And interestingly enough, announcing a vote as a pressure vote takes away all of its power. If you want to get a lurker to talk, don't just vote him, try to get him lynched. It has a much higher probably of getting a result.

Pedit:

Okay, I'm having a bit of trouble sleeping, and so I reread the game. I was planning on finishing out those reads, but I think it's more beneficial all around if I just keep them to myself for now. I'll explain why before the day is done. In the meantime...

Eh, while I don't have any better ideas of my own might as weel put some pressure on thil13.
VOTE: thil13
I'm null on them at present and would like some more activity.

Vote: Tars

Probably not going to lynch you with this vote, I just want you to learn something.


Tars:
Feeling the pressure yet?

No. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn from this either.
1 vote is quite different to more than one vote.

It's not much different if pressure isn't applied properly. And interestingly enough, announcing a vote as a pressure vote takes away all of its power. If you want to get a lurker to talk, don't just vote him, try to get him lynched. It has a much higher probably of getting a result.

Pedit:
The mother steps forward and so the children follow. The mother must let go in order to see her children find their own direction.

Okay, I get it now.

[pandabear]

As for what I learned from competing bandwagons - I learned that there was a last second push towards you, after the Panda wagon collapsed. I assumed it was a last-ditch attempt to save a scumbuddy yesterday, but that apparently wasn't the case.

FWIW, if I had been scum with Sn1, I probably wouldn't have tried to save him.
Of course, I did figure that if Sn1 flipped scum, I probably would have been the most likely D2 lynch, but since 1 scum would be gone already, we'd be far enough ahead that it was worth the risk.
I wanted to prevent Sn1 from being lynched becauase I thought he was town. Nacho, I didn't think was town.

@Hero:

Sorry about the hand! If you feel up to a quicky - whose most likely to be Nacho's partner (since you seem convinced of his scumminess)?

I had you or Tars in mind during the night, but you're not a high-likelihood scum. Tarson, I'm going to hold off comment on her for now. But the early comment D2 was odd.
Thil is low probability; he might have taken the opportunity to hammer Sn1 yesterday to stop the Nacho wagon from happening if they were scum together.
Traveller is unlikely given the support for lynching him.
Haven't thought much about panda since I voted Nacho. I probably should have. It's interesting that he was very suspicious of Nacho to the point that I was defending Nacho's play fom panda; until I voted Nacho, then he didn't do much. Haven't read back very far to investigate this.

So, if Nacho is scum, Panda looks worst.

I think your top line is a WIFOM...maybe I am misusing it, but I don't think saying that you wouldn't have saved Sn1pe had he been scum doesn't save yourself from possibly being scum regardless of what he flipped.

For some reason I am not that convinced Thil13 is scum...especially because I messed up with my lurk read on Sn1pe D1 and because if he does happen to be scum, I think it'd be better if we try and take out his partner and see if we can find connections.

Also, I think traveller is town too.

So now, I want to limit my FOS to Hero, Nacho, tar and possibly ICE. @ICE, I know you have a townread on me, but that alone is not a townread for you in my point of view.

@Hero why do you think I'm partners with Nacho if he indeed is scum? I layed off him because I actually suspected Sn1pe. You trying to make connections out of really nothing significant seems scummy.

I will place a vote among the 4 when I find more scummy reads.

[Herodotus]

It was 4 days before deadline. If you hadn't lurked for so long that you needed to be prodded, we could have had plenty of discussion. In that 4 days, all you made was one doublepost.

Yeah, sometimes life comes up. Try to type with your right hand if you need a reminder of that

That's exactly what I've been doing since post 232. Not sure what you're trying to say here. You accused me of trying to quicklynch you without leaving you a chance to defend yourself because of the timing of my case. I pointed out there were four days. Regardless of what came up, it doesn't make my timing scummy retroactively, even if it's something that would be a good reason why you couldn't post.

Besides, I have seen scum quicklynched while they were V/LA close to a Day 1 deadline, and that one lynch almost destroyed the mafia in that game. So I don't mind speedy wagoning; it can inject life into a game.

What do you think is the significance of "the only other people on my wagon gave no reasoning whatsoever"?

If you were town, I'd expect you to be skeptical when two people hopped on, no reasoning, just like that.
Or wonder why the two other voters seemed to ignore your case.

Traveller talked about his reasons for voting you. I don't agree with his reasons, but I'm not going to suspect him of being scum supporting a mislynch by voting you when I have very little reason to think you're town. Xopa was, I think, using PoE (process of elimination), judging by viewtopic.php?p=2939509#p2939509. I was doing a little of the same, as the people I had higher on my first list were giving plausibly town responses to my questions (or to be more accurate, weren't giving scummy responses) or otherwise were starting to look town.

On a related note, I looked back and don't see you questioning any of the others who voted for Sn1pe after you did.

VOTE: Nacho8

Preview edit: I see panda posted. Will answer the question, but will leave the rest of the post to digest later.

@Hero why do you think I'm partners with Nacho if he indeed is scum? I layed off him because I actually suspected Sn1pe. You trying to make connections out of really nothing significant seems scummy.

Grey asked me who was most likely partner for Nacho, I was answering that question.

[Equinox]

thil13 has been prodded.